I don't mind explaining myself more than once and in different ways but I feel less flustered if someone gets the gist of what I am saying early on. I try to be clear in terms of wording and speech but a positive ITR seems to assume that we highlight or downplay things in a way that makes common sense to each other.
If we have a positive ITR like duality, it can be like a glue that holds our words together as valid. By that I mean we are more likely to take what is being said at face value; to not read too much else into it.
Could it be the case then, that the best ITR between therapist and patient is one of identicals (?). You would hope for a therapist who is healthier version of yourself, being gentle where you are touchy and not putting too much on your plate too quickly (as your dual or activity partner might). The ideal therapist moves at your pace.
Going back to whether duality is the ideal for a relationship, I don't think so. If our sense of humour aligns and is viewed as well-meaning (i.e. we don't make each other uptight), I would even prioritise good laughs over duality.
There exists a greater chance of us becoming more intimate simply because we don't need to feel as guarded around each other. Our bodies are relaxed and happy. This becomes even more important when communicating at a distance or in text only, where facial expressions can't be seen.
Well, it seems that the most useful benefit for being in a dual partnership is that there is a high chance the marriage will be both long-lasting (and happy). Duals seems to stay together, as well as being compatible for each other. Other pairs seem more likely to split, or get bored of each other. It seems like other pairs may stay together by working on things or split because they decide it's not worth staying together. If you split from a long-term partner, say in your 40s/50s, this is likely to be costly and you may lose out financially- you may end up single for a while, living alone which is more expensive.
Duals (also maybe super-ego too) tend to stay together, even though many probably do have problems after many years together. They keep the relationship going and live comfortably. But they are not necessarily happier than a non dual-couple who split and go on to find happiness in a second marriage/ partnership. Yes, it's a nice idea to be with one person always and focus on your family/life you shared together (seeing your grandkids grow up together, seeing each other grow and change) BUT it's not the only type of happiness.
So there is more of a risk by not being in a dual couple. The couple might split up and never find someone else. But it could also be seen as an opportunity- a chance to relive your youth(?), a chance to experience new love again..or even a chance to find a dual haha.
I do think, on the other hand, there are a lot of couples who stay together who aren't compatible. They might not feel able to split up due to financial reasons or they have become too emotionally dependent on each other. (Perhaps his happens more in ‘bad’ ITR). So in that way, duality is the most ideal relation, it has less chance than other ITR of keeping people together who shouldn’t be.
However, with some of those couples there truly is a bond that keeps them loving each other and helping each other where they can. My own parents would be an example of this. My parents are a supervision pair and had several children together. If they had decided to separate, I really think my father would have struggled to meet someone again (he is a good person, but in a very quiet way). I think there is a bond where my mother feels needed and she's happy with that. She is also happy that she had loads of kids (ESE).
I do agree @Sol that duality is great in the way that the couple can be so helpful to each other. It is probably healthy for a society to have many dual couples, as perhaps this makes them more likely to be happy people, who can in turn be useful and helpful to others. But non-dual couples who find some sort of happiness together probably fall into a sort of faux-dual like existence. They help each other where they can, they find a way.
Also, I just find the word ‘duality’ annoying. Not really sure why lol. I guess it sort of hints at this zen peacefulness that can be achieved in oneself, but for most people in the world, they’d be very lucky if they lived a life on that level of happiness. MAYBE I’ll GET THERE YET. Lol. Actually, that’s how I see SEIs, just zen all the time.
Also, as much as I love this forum and the kind souls on it, and really sympathise with those who have struggled in life (as have I), sometimes it does all seem a bit ‘aspirational’. It’s all about being finding healthy love and meeting the ‘one’ and settling down. Where is the romance? Young people, it’s ok to be with someone in your early twenties/teens that isn’t the person you’ll end up married to..
I don't think I've really explained the bourgeois bit but I got impatient to post. I guess, essentially, duality is sold as this idea of perfection, perfect health and happiness, reaching a rich, zen existence..and really the fastest way to finding that type of happiness is not through finding a dual. It's through enjoying your life and finding support from a number of sources. Yes, healthy relationships are important but they don't have to come in the form of a dual. I think the descriptions of duality are almost a description of happiness and you can find that with a non-dual or through happy life experiences. It almost does an injustice to those couples who are non-duals and the love they have for each other. There should be more positive descriptions on non dual-relations in my opinion..
Also....love is love. I have a close friend in a happy relationship with their look-a-like partner. I know another in an activity pair. I think they’d be horrified if I told them they were better off with someone else? I think when you’re in love, and it’s going well, you achieve a type of duality. I don’t think you really notice the negative aspects of the ITR as much as you do, say with a friend or a stranger. I also know a happy mirror couple, together 15 years..
Would the world benefit from knowing about duality? Maybe. But the world would also benefit from simply knowing about ITR and using socionics to help them understand and appreciate people. Not everyone can hang around for a dual, but socionics more importantly can help people feel better about who they are..and help them achieve success in life. The more people who are enlightened about psychology, the more equal the world is likely to become, the more people will be caring towards each other and enjoy their time on this earth.
Last edited by Bethany; 01-07-2022 at 03:41 PM.
I guess I'm not really used to an environment where people seem so self-aware and conscious of their own mental health levels and what is the most stable, wholesome way to love/live. It's a good thing, it's what the forum is for, but also I think a bit of adventure can be good for the soul too. Have a wild love affair or two.
Sure, some people want to settle down young, and maybe they feel it's their safest and surest way to finding someone but sometimes settling down young doesn't work. Most people don't marry their first love, but may look back fondly on the idealism or passion of those first relationships..even if they got their heart broken. I think through having multiple relationships people often learn what type of person is good for them.
My SEE sister said a similar thing about having to give up your freedom when you're in a relationship. You do have to (although it's not the aspect I would find most difficult)..but you don't necessarily need to do it with the first person you meet.
The way duality is written about..it seems like it's supposed to be something to aspire to. Relationships of other ITR can be even more romantic than the average dual couple, though some might disagree. So I don't think people should be sad if they don't have a dual. If I can't have a perfect, healthy dual relationship well there are some pretty nice, romantic alternatives...even if they don't last as long as a dual one would..
Also, I do think there are things you can get from a non-dual that you can't get from a dual..
Last edited by Bethany; 01-07-2022 at 06:38 PM.
I don't like the idea of duality being that great.
I think people have the potential to grow enough as humans that itr are useless.
I see them as a start.
Doesn't mean to endure peeps who treat you wrong.
Doesn't mean to only hang around people who are the way you think is best.
We need a mix of both different and similar to learn compassion, respect, self-respect, boundaries and whatever we deem important, a type can hint in a direction but cannot take us there unless we willingly go.
People who become truly healthy, both stable and flexible, are those who shine for all like the sun, the moon, the stars.
Naming those three different sky residing shines is important, because not everyone is like the sun and that's okay.
I saw recently people talking about what kind of light they thought they were while also having others' opinions.
Someone saw themself as a candle yet got called a camp fire, iirc.
I found this rather intesresting an exercize.
I don't even see dating as that great, so dating a dual doesn't even ring a bell for me.
I think dating is fine for who wishes to date.
Tho, some seem to view dating as an end and then sabotage because seeking whom to date is such a huge part of their life that if they find someone, it will become empty.
This last sentence isn't well forned, can't do better right now. The search is so consuming that finding would mean extinguishment, death; something like that.
As exemple, when one part of a couple wants to split up but not the other, they both gains their freedom to date back and the possibility to find someone better yet it doesn't necessarily feels like a gain, more like a burden, a bad fate.
The possibility of loss and gaining worse keeps many up at night.
Sorry if my above post was a bit manic. Telling young people to sow their wild oats might be just as unhelpful as telling them to find a dual. True romance (adventure, excitement, mystery) is probably best found by a combination of being mentally healthy as well as following your instincts for what’s right for you.
Basically, don't force things. There are several LSIs that I find intriguing but never gonna force anything with. There usually seems to be a gentle prodding push-pull with a lot of them.
Wanted to expand a bit more in this. I think to be young and hopeful about meeting someone is a lovely thing. And if you are lucky enough to experience a healthy or passionate relationship (or both) at a young age it’s a good thing. Also, it’s ok to wait a bit until you feel ready for a relationship. It’s ok to date or be single. But when I was young I knew several people who didn’t date or have relationships because of low self-esteem. I was one of them. I think it’s sad that they missed out on having romance in their life for those years, although most of them did eventually get more confident and meet people. There is an outstanding tv show in the UK atm called Sex Education, a super funny and warm drama about forming healthy relationships when you’re young if anyone’s interested It’s very cool.
I do also believe that socionics can be a useful tool for young people who haven’t had the best guidance about relationships from their parents. My mum never spoke to me about sex or relationships for example. Whatever age a person feels ready to date or have relationships, there should be support and guidance available to them if they need it.
But I think the forum could do with a bit more discussion of healthy or passionate love with non-duals. I know duality is fascinating, it always will be, but the whole point in why it’s good (when it’s good) is because it’s healthy + loving..it makes life happier. And that’s something couples of other ITR can also aspire to. So it’s ok to discuss those relationships too. I know there is more to the forum than duality discussion but it’s an aspect of socionics/the forum that can come off a bit elitist or non-inclusive and could be a bit off-putting for new-comers. (Maybe also a bit snobbish/pretentious).
The prescriptive nature of ITR and type descriptions can also be off-putting so it’s good to talk about more real life-experiences.
Last edited by Bethany; 01-10-2022 at 06:48 PM.
I do also find it..um jarring how duality is relatively commonplace- (there are a lot of dual couples, unless I'm spotting them becasue I'm looking)..and we all know about this secret cool theory that explains the success of these couples whilst they themselves have no idea it exists? It's an ordinary, everyday phenomenon yet it's this big secret that you can't really talk about. Also, it seems to come to people without trying but if you know the cool secret it's seems like it's almost more difficult to experience it. I almost feel a bit stupid reading about it, when other people experiencing it probably wouldn't be particlarly interested in reading about it. I'll always be grateful for discovering socionics but the duality thing is bloody weird. Maybe it's becasue I'm lacking in relationship experience so it really does seem intriguing (or curious) to me, even though I think I might be happier with a different ITR. I've told a few people about duality and they kinda just go 'oh cool.. but no big deal?'
Last edited by Bethany; 01-10-2022 at 06:45 PM.
The reason duality is the 'ideal' is because it's the type of relationship where couples do not have to compromise to the point of straining the relationship. This is because each partner knows exactly what the other needs, and can provide for them in the areas they are weak (or even help them grow), and in doing so the are able to communicate more effectively.
Conversely, a less favorable ITR means that communication becomes difficult, and each partner strains to deliver what the other desires.
But growing as a human being doesn't require duality at all, and in actuality, some people aren't even fit for duality if they aren't already in a healthy state of mind. Duality is often described as a relationship that has what 'you need' and not what you want. But if you don't know what exactly it is that you need, or if you are already getting what you need from other relationships (friends, family, coworkers, etc.) then by extension duality becomes less necessary. Moreover, duality is dependent on the couple still sharing the same life goals, attraction to each other, etc.
Last edited by Manatroid92; 01-13-2022 at 10:17 AM.
We pretty much have the same underlying idea. I just tried to convey this self-sabotaging part that happens a lot in the dating sphere around me; people so consumed by the search they keep going after the worse possible people or sabotaging what they have going well because it isn't as perfect as they had in mind.
Yeah, if people aren't able to grow on their own, they won't grow from a dual.
And, yeah, dating one ain't necessary.
duality in everyday life, or in relationships besides romantic ones:
grad student in my department, ILE; department secretary, SEI. they talk a lot in the SEI's office
my landlord, IEE. her repairperson, SLI- I think. I don't know many SLIs, but i think there's a good chance that it's his type.
it's nice to notice it and at the same time see it as pretty commonplace, not elevate it quite as much as i've learned to since i got into socionics...
Once you start to see Socionics types, it's hard to stop. I now see a person's type before I see their race. I remember it better, too.
One thing I like to see is how often the predictions of Socionics ITRs come true. I mean, it can be a disaster for some people, but it's still interesting to me to observe. I try not to say anything to them unless I know them really, really, really well. And even then, I try not to say anything to them about their relationships. It just has too great a downside.