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Thread: So, How to date a dual and do I have one or is duality a myth?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderwoman View Post
    very interesting to consider! hmmm
    haha I'm not too sure what I'm talking about. I got the idea from one of Rebel on Deck's articles where he mentioned something about the nature of attraction being sexual/ curiosity/ alliance based. Can try to find where I read it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    Duality is a bourgeois concept
    ok this might be a bit ranty and may need to add stuff

    Well, it seems that the most useful benefit for being in a dual partnership is that there is a high chance the marriage will be both long-lasting (and happy). Duals seems to stay together, as well as being compatible for each other. Other pairs seem more likely to split, or get bored of each other. It seems like other pairs may stay together by working on things or split because they decide it's not worth staying together. If you split from a long-term partner, say in your 40s/50s, this is likely to be costly and you may lose out financially- you may end up single for a while, living alone which is more expensive.

    Duals (also maybe super-ego too) tend to stay together, even though many probably do have problems after many years together. They keep the relationship going and live comfortably. But they are not necessarily happier than a non dual-couple who split and go on to find happiness in a second marriage/ partnership. Yes, it's a nice idea to be with one person always and focus on your family/life you shared together (seeing your grandkids grow up together, seeing each other grow and change) BUT it's not the only type of happiness.

    So there is more of a risk by not being in a dual couple. The couple might split up and never find someone else. But it could also be seen as an opportunity- a chance to relive your youth(?), a chance to experience new love again..or even a chance to find a dual haha.

    I do think, on the other hand, there are a lot of couples who stay together who aren't compatible. They might not feel able to split up due to financial reasons or they have become too emotionally dependent on each other. (Perhaps his happens more in ‘bad’ ITR). So in that way, duality is the most ideal relation, it has less chance than other ITR of keeping people together who shouldn’t be.

    However, with some of those couples there truly is a bond that keeps them loving each other and helping each other where they can. My own parents would be an example of this. My parents are a supervision pair and had several children together. If they had decided to separate, I really think my father would have struggled to meet someone again (he is a good person, but in a very quiet way). I think there is a bond where my mother feels needed and she's happy with that. She is also happy that she had loads of kids (ESE).

    I do agree @Sol that duality is great in the way that the couple can be so helpful to each other. It is probably healthy for a society to have many dual couples, as perhaps this makes them more likely to be happy people, who can in turn be useful and helpful to others. But non-dual couples who find some sort of happiness together probably fall into a sort of faux-dual like existence. They help each other where they can, they find a way.

    Also, I just find the word ‘duality’ annoying. Not really sure why lol. I guess it sort of hints at this zen peacefulness that can be achieved in oneself, but for most people in the world, they’d be very lucky if they lived a life on that level of happiness. MAYBE I’ll GET THERE YET. Lol. Actually, that’s how I see SEIs, just zen all the time.

    Also, as much as I love this forum and the kind souls on it, and really sympathise with those who have struggled in life (as have I), sometimes it does all seem a bit ‘aspirational’. It’s all about being finding healthy love and meeting the ‘one’ and settling down. Where is the romance? Young people, it’s ok to be with someone in your early twenties/teens that isn’t the person you’ll end up married to..

    I don't think I've really explained the bourgeois bit but I got impatient to post. I guess, essentially, duality is sold as this idea of perfection, perfect health and happiness, reaching a rich, zen existence..and really the fastest way to finding that type of happiness is not through finding a dual. It's through enjoying your life and finding support from a number of sources. Yes, healthy relationships are important but they don't have to come in the form of a dual. I think the descriptions of duality are almost a description of happiness and you can find that with a non-dual or through happy life experiences. It almost does an injustice to those couples who are non-duals and the love they have for each other. There should be more positive descriptions on non dual-relations in my opinion..

    Also....love is love. I have a close friend in a happy relationship with their look-a-like partner. I know another in an activity pair. I think they’d be horrified if I told them they were better off with someone else? I think when you’re in love, and it’s going well, you achieve a type of duality. I don’t think you really notice the negative aspects of the ITR as much as you do, say with a friend or a stranger. I also know a happy mirror couple, together 15 years..

    Would the world benefit from knowing about duality? Maybe. But the world would also benefit from simply knowing about ITR and using socionics to help them understand and appreciate people. Not everyone can hang around for a dual, but socionics more importantly can help people feel better about who they are..and help them achieve success in life. The more people who are enlightened about psychology, the more equal the world is likely to become, the more people will be caring towards each other and enjoy their time on this earth.
    Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 01-07-2022 at 02:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    It’s all about being finding healthy love and meeting the ‘one’ and settling down. Where is the romance?
    How is it not romantic to feel so much in love with someone for a long time that you're willing to settle down with them and marry? It takes giving up part of one's daily life and freedom for the benefit of the relationship, and I think that through self-sacrifice we show that we care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    Young people, it’s ok to be with someone in your early twenties/teens that isn’t the person you’ll end up married to..
    This my future-oriented Ni finds hard to accept, especially since my Te wants to increase happiness and to take the shortest route towards there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    ..and really the fastest way to finding that type of happiness is not through finding a dual. It's through enjoying your life and finding support from a number of sources.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    It almost does an injustice to those couples who are non-duals and the love they have for each other. There should be more positive descriptions on non dual-relations in my opinion..

    Also....love is love. I have a close friend in a happy relationship with their look-a-like partner. I know another in an activity pair. I think they’d be horrified if I told them they were better off with someone else? I think when you’re in love, and it’s going well, you achieve a type of duality. I don’t think you really notice the negative aspects of the ITR as much as you do, say with a friend or a stranger. I also know a happy mirror couple, together 15 years..
    I think that the whole point of Socionics is to help find love for those who are still looking and to assist the couples who are going through a bad spade to better understand each other. The couples who are already doing well don't need it, though it's always nice to learn more about your partner and yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    Would the world benefit from knowing about duality? Maybe. But the world would also benefit from simply knowing about ITR and using socionics to help them understand and appreciate people. Not everyone can hang around for a dual, but socionics more importantly can help people feel better about who they are..and help them achieve success in life. The more people who are enlightened about psychology, the more equal the world is likely to become, the more people will be caring towards each other and enjoy their time on this earth.
    Wholeheartedly yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    How is it not romantic to feel so much in love with someone for a long time that you're willing to settle down with them and marry?It takes giving up part of one's daily life and freedom for the benefit of the relationship, and I think that through self-sacrifice we show that we care.
    oh yeah sorry sounds like a bit of a contradiction. Finding the 'one' is romantic, planning a life together, or maybe even being young together but it's also a bit..conventional Just saying it's not the only way, you can have more than one relationship before you get to that.

    I guess I'm not really used to an environment where people seem so self-aware and conscious of their own mental health levels and what is the most stable, wholesome way to love/live. It's a good thing, it's what the forum is for, but also I think a bit of adventure can be good for the soul too. Have a wild love affair or two.

    Sure, some people want to settle down young, and maybe they feel it's their safest and surest way to finding someone but sometimes settling down young doesn't work. Most people don't marry their first love, but may look back fondly on the idealism or passion of those first relationships..even if they got their heart broken. I think through having multiple relationships people often learn what type of person is good for them.

    My SEE sister said a similar thing about having to give up your freedom when you're in a relationship. You do have to (although it's not the aspect I would find most difficult)..but you don't necessarily need to do it with the first person you meet.

    The way duality is written about..it seems like it's supposed to be something to aspire to. Relationships of other ITR can be even more romantic than the average dual couple, though some might disagree. So I don't think people should be sad if they don't have a dual. If I can't have a perfect, healthy dual relationship well there are some pretty nice, romantic alternatives...even if they don't last as long as a dual one would..

    Also, I do think there are things you can get from a non-dual that you can't get from a dual..
    Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 01-07-2022 at 05:38 PM.

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    I don't like the idea of duality being that great.
    I think people have the potential to grow enough as humans that itr are useless.
    I see them as a start.
    Doesn't mean to endure peeps who treat you wrong.
    Doesn't mean to only hang around people who are the way you think is best.
    We need a mix of both different and similar to learn compassion, respect, self-respect, boundaries and whatever we deem important, a type can hint in a direction but cannot take us there unless we willingly go.

    People who become truly healthy, both stable and flexible, are those who shine for all like the sun, the moon, the stars.
    Naming those three different sky residing shines is important, because not everyone is like the sun and that's okay.
    I saw recently people talking about what kind of light they thought they were while also having others' opinions.
    Someone saw themself as a candle yet got called a camp fire, iirc.
    I found this rather intesresting an exercize.

    I don't even see dating as that great, so dating a dual doesn't even ring a bell for me.
    I think dating is fine for who wishes to date.

    Tho, some seem to view dating as an end and then sabotage because seeking whom to date is such a huge part of their life that if they find someone, it will become empty.
    This last sentence isn't well forned, can't do better right now. The search is so consuming that finding would mean extinguishment, death; something like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adage View Post
    Tho, some seem to view dating as an end and then sabotage because seeking whom to date is such a huge part of their life that if they find someone, it will become empty.
    This last sentence isn't well forned, can't do better right now. The search is so consuming that finding would mean extinguishment, death; something like that.
    Death is a transition. Lots of people don't do well with change.
    Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Death is a transition. Lots of people don't do well with change.
    Yeah, a change indicates a loss, and a gain, lots of uncertainty. The loss is certain tho, the gain requires the loss to exist and doesn't seem granted, it's uncertain what will be gained. The "gain" may also be unwanted
    As exemple, when one part of a couple wants to split up but not the other, they both gains their freedom to date back and the possibility to find someone better yet it doesn't necessarily feels like a gain, more like a burden, a bad fate.

    The possibility of loss and gaining worse keeps many up at night.

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    Sorry if my above post was a bit manic. Telling young people to sow their wild oats might be just as unhelpful as telling them to find a dual. True romance (adventure, excitement, mystery) is probably best found by a combination of being mentally healthy as well as following your instincts for what’s right for you.

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    Don't worry, @Bethany, I don't think that your post read manic, instead I think that it was actually quite motivational.
    Last edited by Armitage; 02-14-2022 at 03:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    Also, as much as I love this forum and the kind souls on it, and really sympathise with those who have struggled in life (as have I), sometimes it does all seem a bit ‘aspirational’. It’s all about being finding healthy love and meeting the ‘one’ and settling down. Where is the romance? Young people, it’s ok to be with someone in your early twenties/teens that isn’t the person you’ll end up married to.

    Wanted to expand a bit more in this. I think to be young and hopeful about meeting someone is a lovely thing. And if you are lucky enough to experience a healthy or passionate relationship (or both) at a young age it’s a good thing. Also, it’s ok to wait a bit until you feel ready for a relationship. It’s ok to date or be single. But when I was young I knew several people who didn’t date or have relationships because of low self-esteem. I was one of them. I think it’s sad that they missed out on having romance in their life for those years, although most of them did eventually get more confident and meet people. There is an outstanding tv show in the UK atm called Sex Education, a super funny and warm drama about forming healthy relationships when you’re young if anyone’s interested It’s very cool.


    I do also believe that socionics can be a useful tool for young people who haven’t had the best guidance about relationships from their parents. My mum never spoke to me about sex or relationships for example. Whatever age a person feels ready to date or have relationships, there should be support and guidance available to them if they need it.


    But I think the forum could do with a bit more discussion of healthy or passionate love with non-duals. I know duality is fascinating, it always will be, but the whole point in why it’s good (when it’s good) is because it’s healthy + loving..it makes life happier. And that’s something couples of other ITR can also aspire to. So it’s ok to discuss those relationships too. I know there is more to the forum than duality discussion but it’s an aspect of socionics/the forum that can come off a bit elitist or non-inclusive and could be a bit off-putting for new-comers. (Maybe also a bit snobbish/pretentious).

    The prescriptive nature of ITR and type descriptions can also be off-putting so it’s good to talk about more real life-experiences.
    Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 01-10-2022 at 05:48 PM.

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    I do also find it..um jarring how duality is relatively commonplace- (there are a lot of dual couples, unless I'm spotting them becasue I'm looking)..and we all know about this secret cool theory that explains the success of these couples whilst they themselves have no idea it exists? It's an ordinary, everyday phenomenon yet it's this big secret that you can't really talk about. Also, it seems to come to people without trying but if you know the cool secret it's seems like it's almost more difficult to experience it. I almost feel a bit stupid reading about it, when other people experiencing it probably wouldn't be particlarly interested in reading about it. I'll always be grateful for discovering socionics but the duality thing is bloody weird. Maybe it's becasue I'm lacking in relationship experience so it really does seem intriguing (or curious) to me, even though I think I might be happier with a different ITR. I've told a few people about duality and they kinda just go 'oh cool.. but no big deal?'
    Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 01-10-2022 at 05:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adage View Post
    I don't like the idea of duality being that great.
    I think people have the potential to grow enough as humans that itr are useless.
    I see them as a start.
    Doesn't mean to endure peeps who treat you wrong.
    Doesn't mean to only hang around people who are the way you think is best.
    We need a mix of both different and similar to learn compassion, respect, self-respect, boundaries and whatever we deem important, a type can hint in a direction but cannot take us there unless we willingly go.

    People who become truly healthy, both stable and flexible, are those who shine for all like the sun, the moon, the stars.
    Naming those three different sky residing shines is important, because not everyone is like the sun and that's okay.
    I saw recently people talking about what kind of light they thought they were while also having others' opinions.
    Someone saw themself as a candle yet got called a camp fire, iirc.
    I found this rather intesresting an exercize.

    I don't even see dating as that great, so dating a dual doesn't even ring a bell for me.
    I think dating is fine for who wishes to date.

    Tho, some seem to view dating as an end and then sabotage because seeking whom to date is such a huge part of their life that if they find someone, it will become empty.
    This last sentence isn't well forned, can't do better right now. The search is so consuming that finding would mean extinguishment, death; something like that.
    I may be misreading what you're intending to convey, but all of those things *are* important and also are not necessarily contradictory to duality.
    The reason duality is the 'ideal' is because it's the type of relationship where couples do not have to compromise to the point of straining the relationship. This is because each partner knows exactly what the other needs, and can provide for them in the areas they are weak (or even help them grow), and in doing so the are able to communicate more effectively.

    Conversely, a less favorable ITR means that communication becomes difficult, and each partner strains to deliver what the other desires.


    But growing as a human being doesn't require duality at all, and in actuality, some people aren't even fit for duality if they aren't already in a healthy state of mind. Duality is often described as a relationship that has what 'you need' and not what you want. But if you don't know what exactly it is that you need, or if you are already getting what you need from other relationships (friends, family, coworkers, etc.) then by extension duality becomes less necessary. Moreover, duality is dependent on the couple still sharing the same life goals, attraction to each other, etc.
    Last edited by Manatroid92; 01-13-2022 at 09:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manatroid92 View Post
    I may be misreading what you're intending to convey, but all of those things *are* important and also are not necessarily contradictory to duality.
    The reason duality is the 'ideal' is because it's the type of relationship where couples do not have to compromise to the point of straining the relationship. This is because each partner knows exactly what the other needs, and can provide for them in the areas they are weak (or even help them grow), and in doing so the are able to communicate more effectively.

    Conversely, a less favorable ITR means that communication becomes difficult, and each partner strains to deliver what the other desires.


    But growing as a human being doesn't require duality at all, and in actuality, some people aren't even fit for duality if they aren't already in a healthy state of mind. Duality is often described as a relationship that has what 'you need' and not what you want. But if you don't know what exactly it is that you need, or if you are already getting what you need from other relationships (friends, family, coworkers, etc.) then by extension duality becomes less necessary. Moreover, duality is dependent on the couple still sharing the same life goals, attraction to each other, etc.
    What I don't like is seeing is people who seem obsessed with the idea of duality and that it will magicaly fix everything if they find it. As you wrote, those people aren't even fit for duality anyway.
    We pretty much have the same underlying idea. I just tried to convey this self-sabotaging part that happens a lot in the dating sphere around me; people so consumed by the search they keep going after the worse possible people or sabotaging what they have going well because it isn't as perfect as they had in mind.

    Yeah, if people aren't able to grow on their own, they won't grow from a dual.
    And, yeah, dating one ain't necessary.

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    duality in everyday life, or in relationships besides romantic ones:
    grad student in my department, ILE; department secretary, SEI. they talk a lot in the SEI's office

    my landlord, IEE. her repairperson, SLI- I think. I don't know many SLIs, but i think there's a good chance that it's his type.

    it's nice to notice it and at the same time see it as pretty commonplace, not elevate it quite as much as i've learned to since i got into socionics...

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderwoman View Post
    duality in everyday life, or in relationships besides romantic ones:
    grad student in my department, ILE; department secretary, SEI. they talk a lot in the SEI's office

    my landlord, IEE. her repairperson, SLI- I think. I don't know many SLIs, but i think there's a good chance that it's his type.

    it's nice to notice it and at the same time see it as pretty commonplace, not elevate it quite as much as i've learned to since i got into socionics...

    Once you start to see Socionics types, it's hard to stop. I now see a person's type before I see their race. I remember it better, too.

    One thing I like to see is how often the predictions of Socionics ITRs come true. I mean, it can be a disaster for some people, but it's still interesting to me to observe. I try not to say anything to them unless I know them really, really, really well. And even then, I try not to say anything to them about their relationships. It just has too great a downside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Once you start to see Socionics types, it's hard to stop. I now see a person's type before I see their race. I remember it better, too.

    One thing I like to see is how often the predictions of Socionics ITRs come true. I mean, it can be a disaster for some people, but it's still interesting to me to observe. I try not to say anything to them unless I know them really, really, really well. And even then, I try not to say anything to them about their relationships. It just has too great a downside.
    i totally agree with and quote unquote "approve of" that decision. learned it the hard way one time, pre-socionics.

    I admire your VI skills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderwoman View Post
    i totally agree with and quote unquote "approve of" that decision. learned it the hard way one time, pre-socionics.

    I admire your VI skills.

    Thanks, @wonderwoman, but my VI skills only work about half the time. Still, that's up from 5% when I first started trying to match faces and sociotypes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post

    Wanted to expand a bit more in this. I think to be young and hopeful about meeting someone is a lovely thing. And if you are lucky enough to experience a healthy or passionate relationship (or both) at a young age it’s a good thing. Also, it’s ok to wait a bit until you feel ready for a relationship. It’s ok to date or be single. But when I was young I knew several people who didn’t date or have relationships because of low self-esteem. I was one of them. I think it’s sad that they missed out on having romance in their life for those years, although most of them did eventually get more confident and meet people. There is an outstanding tv show in the UK atm called Sex Education, a super funny and warm drama about forming healthy relationships when you’re young if anyone’s interested It’s very cool.


    I do also believe that socionics can be a useful tool for young people who haven’t had the best guidance about relationships from their parents. My mum never spoke to me about sex or relationships for example. Whatever age a person feels ready to date or have relationships, there should be support and guidance available to them if they need it.


    But I think the forum could do with a bit more discussion of healthy or passionate love with non-duals. I know duality is fascinating, it always will be, but the whole point in why it’s good (when it’s good) is because it’s healthy + loving..it makes life happier. And that’s something couples of other ITR can also aspire to. So it’s ok to discuss those relationships too. I know there is more to the forum than duality discussion but it’s an aspect of socionics/the forum that can come off a bit elitist or non-inclusive and could be a bit off-putting for new-comers. (Maybe also a bit snobbish/pretentious).

    The prescriptive nature of ITR and type descriptions can also be off-putting so it’s good to talk about more real life-experiences.
    Your points are very well-taken by me, Bethany, an admitted duality worshipper on the forum. I truly do appreciate the wisdom, b/c I have noticed the idealization of duality seeping into my perceptions and mental portrayals of romantic relationships between certain couples i know that have less favorable ITRs, and i don't want my thinking to be overly deterministic or limited like that. Really liked what you wrote in another thread too, the one asking if other people associated people with colors, about how you'd been recalling a compassion meditation exercise and wanted to get back to seeing your friends' essences in your mind's eye, over and above their sociotypes. I love that. BTW loved first 2 seasons of Sex Education and pretty excited to see that the 3rd one has come out! Last season ended on a cliffhanger haha (as seasons tend to do). I definitely relate to your thoughts too about it being ok to wait to date until one feels ready--hard relate.

    I'll see if i can walk the walk by incorporating more open-minded perspectives in future thinking and posts. I do still think my best match would be a dual and have reasons to think that odds are still fairly in my favor that i could find one..., but it's really good to remember the complexity out there too -- even for the simple but important truth that not every dual is going to be right match for someone... (or maybe we could say not even most? not sure).

    Again, thanks for sharing, I enjoy and learn from your posts.

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    @wonderwoman thank you for your kind words. I was feeling self-conscious about the posts I made recently in this thread (I wrote them when I was a bit sleep deprived, frazzled..and wish I had structuted my thoughts better). But yes, socionics is fascinating and it's only natural to let your mind get caught up in the idea of particular 'types' and what they can bring to your life and existence. I remember in earlier days of my socionics journey I once commented somewhere on the forum that 'it's important to think about the positive attributes of each type and our ITR with them'. Knowledege/ psychological knowledge is only really useful if it is helping you feel good about your place in the world and ability to navigate your way through it with integrity and/or comfort. This means getting on with people or at least accepting them and sometimes thinking about socionics too much can get in the way of that I think. Breaks from it are probably healthy. Anyways, I'm still a lil tired so chat more soon. I like your posts too I am going through a big ESI appreciation phase atm actually..! I feel I still have more to share on the forum..it's a great space for me to address some of my own long term trauma and I'm glad if some things I say can be helpful in reducing anxiety or feelings of lonliness for anyone reading them.

    Hmm and yes I'm still intrigued by the idea of the 'imago'..the theory that people are often attracted to people who resemble a parent in some manner. I think people often end up with a 'type' similar to their parent's type. I fell madly in love with an SEI recently, although I have been attracted to duals in the past. My father is SLI and my mother is ESE and so I think being around the SEI reminds me of being around both parents..or something. Of course, we can form strong, loving passionate attachments with other types that don't resemble the type of our parents...perhaps you end up with a dual that resembles them in some manner for example. I do think that most people will choose a partner that they are most passionatley, instinctivley attracted to....regardless of type, when it comes down to it. I am thinking deeply about what I want at the moment...I still want the hottest, coolest person I can get....(with a 'decent' ITR..) maybe that's because I never had the chance to have that yet and I still need to get it out of my system haha. Maybe after a few passionate relationships (good or bad) you can be a bit more practical in your selection because you are able to be more realistic. You aren't driven by instincts so much anymore..because you have worked through those attachments or those parts of yourself that needed filling.

    I guess it's true that some ITR do have a tendency to be less favourable..and it's good to avoid those..especially if you already struggle mentally.

    edit: oh also....even though I have had a diffucult past and recently went through a horrible experience with the SEI I mentioned (messed me about and had to work with him for a long time) I swear that the experience with him will be the fuel that fires much art I will make in the future. It's almost like I needed that heart break to jolt the life back into me that somewhere disappeared when I was young..strange. I'm genuinely excited about making art in a way I haven't been since school. What better fuel for art than unrequited(?), unconsummated love with a lookalike who burrowed his way into your mind, made you feel loved, hated, exalted, despair..and come out the other end to make art that is passionate and heartfelt.. Somehow I don't think I was ever a person destined for life without at least a little bit of relationship drama (I grew up on Disney princesses and remember writing in a diary that 'I love Danny the prince' in a notebook around age 5, Danny being an SLI boy in my class haha, idealistic even then). Not saying you necessarily need relationship drama in your life to make good art...maybe you just need love...but I do think many people will be tempted by passion before they can find something adequately healthy, and also there is the fact young people are vulnerable and hurt each other through lack of experience/maturity and get into addictive, unhealthy patterns..but it can be something you learn from and that shapes you, it doesn't have to break you/ shape you..

    P.S Yes Sex Education, singing, dancing, romance and tender, funny advice for teenage love and growth, excellent show..
    Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 01-27-2022 at 09:15 PM.

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    Venture out of your normal circle and you could find one.
    Bound upon me, rush upon me, I will overcome you by enduring your onset: whatever strikes against that which is firm and unconquerable merely injures itself by its own violence. Wherefore, seek some soft and yielding object to pierce with your darts.

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    "Duality" is little more than an arranged marriage, a fantasy. Duals meeting each other without knowledge that they are "Duals" often find each other either unremarkable or repulsive. I think that "Semi-Dual" and "Benefit" are better relations. Most importantly, stay away from "Supervision" and "Conflict" unless you want to develop mental problems.

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    Meeting my dual I thought my friend should go for him. Little did I know.

    It was worth it though, I'd had a horrid upbringing and needed a good solid relationship that would last. All the crap we go through is nothing but a drop in the bucket compared to the drama supervision-><-supervision-> parents turned out for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by StereoTYPE View Post
    "Duality" is little more than an arranged marriage, a fantasy. Duals meeting each other without knowledge that they are "Duals" often find each other either unremarkable or repulsive. I think that "Semi-Dual" and "Benefit" are better relations. Most importantly, stay away from "Supervision" and "Conflict" unless you want to develop mental problems.
    This ain't facts bruh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post

    Also, as much as I love this forum and the kind souls on it, and really sympathise with those who have struggled in life (as have I), sometimes it does all seem a bit ‘aspirational’. It’s all about being finding healthy love and meeting the ‘one’ and settling down. Where is the romance? Young people, it’s ok to be with someone in your early twenties/teens that isn’t the person you’ll end up married to..

    .
    Haha my SLE aunt literally told her son "You don't have to marry you're 1st piece."

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    Quote Originally Posted by adage View Post
    I don't like the idea of duality being that great.
    I think people have the potential to grow enough as humans that itr are useless.
    I see them as a start.
    Doesn't mean to endure peeps who treat you wrong.
    Doesn't mean to only hang around people who are the way you think is best.
    We need a mix of both different and similar to learn compassion, respect, self-respect, boundaries and whatever we deem important, a type can hint in a direction but cannot take us there unless we willingly go.

    People who become truly healthy, both stable and flexible, are those who shine for all like the sun, the moon, the stars.
    Naming those three different sky residing shines is important, because not everyone is like the sun and that's okay.
    I saw recently people talking about what kind of light they thought they were while also having others' opinions.
    Someone saw themself as a candle yet got called a camp fire, iirc.
    I found this rather intesresting an exercize.

    I don't even see dating as that great, so dating a dual doesn't even ring a bell for me.
    I think dating is fine for who wishes to date.

    Tho, some seem to view dating as an end and then sabotage because seeking whom to date is such a huge part of their life that if they find someone, it will become empty.
    This last sentence isn't well formed, can't do better right now. The search is so consuming that finding would mean extinguishment, death; something like that.
    What I think is, if you are in a group of people and there's some weird unspoke friction between you and them, it's probably ITR. If you get on with certain people really well and especially quickly, it's probably ITR. I don't mean to say just hang with your quadra, there are ITRs outside of that that go well also, but alot of unspeakable and irreconcilable things go on in ITR. I can even look in my own life and see groups of people I spent time with, where I fit in the most and where I didn't, 2 major reasons are shared values and ITR.

    And I don't get where people get the idea that you can grow "healthy" all on your own, do you just close your eyes really hard and poof you're healthy? Do you spend time in nature and rocks and all of the sudden you can have healthy relations with humans? It is other people that help you grow the most.

    I think there is a ton to learn from a dual, but I think at first it is really unrelatable because of how huge the gap in dimensions is. 4D trying to speak to 1D is like a beginner in spanish speaking to a fluent native. The other day I asked a dual how to start off a school semester so that you get your work and study done stress free, their advice was too much and overwhelmed me (literally told me to get a planner and schedule every single thing I do), but taking pieces of it to form a basic beginners version actually does help, and there are specific insights that other types don't seem to address when I ask questions, very helpful and clear answers to problems I have dealt with my whole life. I think we learn from all types, but I also think alot of what we learn from other types are indirect lessons we learn directly from a dual. I know when I'm around people who value my PoLR I learn about it but in a painful way, I still learn though, it is painful though because they expect me to value Se and put pressure on me to perform in it. While with LSE I learn Se from just pure observation with no expectations, I can chill back take subconscious notes and then apply the lessons on my own time and in my own privacy without negative judgement of sucking at it, because people who are learning a new language fear speaking it for fear of sounding dumb, that's exactly how I feel about my PoLR. Anyway, I think people like to crap on duality because it seems to promise too much and sing the praises of other ITR in order to maybe widen their options of good relations, and that's fine, but just because other ITR is good doesn't mean duality isn't also good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    This ain't facts bruh.
    True. It's all theoretical. However, as Jung described originally, your Dual will actually make you weaker and stifle self-development due to avoidance of developing the Inferior function. Duality being a cure-all romance is Ausra's theory. Furthermore, Gulenko's concept of Duality is more accurate romantically as it equates to a Conflict relation that should harmonize over time if it doesn't implode within the first month or so. Duality's most optimal use, in my opinion, is in a dynamic and professional workplace environment, basically a business setting. I suppose it's also important to consider that certain "Dualities" have a higher success rate than others.

    The fact that you believe in Ausra's idea of Duality makes me smile. Regardless, I agree with Jung's idea over Ausra's first and foremost after my personal experience with Duality (both of us typed by VG). If anything I'd say that Duality evolves over time in all three ways. Birth, life, death. What that means is that it starts out like Jung's Concept, Lives like Gulenko's Concept, and Dies as Ausra's Concept (if the end result, the "Dualization" happens). But, that's just my theory right now. One idea I have is that types repulse types by default (unless Identical) and no relation is good or bad, it depends on mutual interests and openness, which is a bit more realistic.
    Last edited by Ocean Man; 04-04-2022 at 04:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Haha my SLE aunt literally told her son "You don't have to marry you're 1st piece."
    I mean surely we can have a bit of fun with our knowledge of socionics, go on a few hot dates with a semi-dual with the secret insight that we know they have the power to hurt us so we know to be a little bit careful. But this site is quite religious so I think a lot of people are against casual sex and more in favour of settling down young. I think it's also a gen Z thing to be less wild lol. It's a good thing on the whole but it's also probably just a phase lol. When everyone knows about socionics there will be dedicated dating apps to 'choosing' a type. A bit scary but there would be some benefits. If I could go back in time, I'd like to have a few relationships from a young age. A woman has less time to have fun before they have to worry about babies blah blah. So I wish I'd had more fun. Although I probs wouldn't have been that wild coz I'm too sensitive. I had a phone date with an SLE the other day and I told him all about my experience of going to a fetish club in Berlin. But I think he can see through me really and knows I'm actually innocent. Haha.

    edit: I often think my lack of relationship experience might turn out to be an issue in a future relationship. Might not have enough stories to share with an SEE type or SLE type. I might fare better with a quiet type/person. I think it’s the appeal of SEIs, they’re so in the moment, I admire that quality in them of not looking back. However, perhaps strong ITR is still what matters most.
    Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 04-04-2022 at 06:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    I mean surely we can have a bit of fun with our knowledge of socionics, go on a few hot dates with a semi-dual with the secret insight that we know they have the power to hurt us so we know to be a little bit careful. But this site is quite religious so I think a lot of people are against casual sex and more in favour of settling down young. I think it's also a gen Z thing to be less wild lol. It's a good thing on the whole but it's also probably just a phase lol. When everyone knows about socionics there will be dedicated dating apps to 'choosing' a type. A bit scary but there would be some benefits. If I could go back in time, I'd like to have a few relationships from a young age. A woman has less time to have fun before they have to worry about babies blah blah. So I wish I'd had more fun. Although I probs wouldn't have been that wild coz I'm too sensitive. I had a phone date with an SLE the other day and I told him all about my experience of going to a fetish club in Berlin. But I think he can see through me really and knows I'm actually innocent. Haha.

    edit: I often think my lack of relationship experience might turn out to be an issue in a future relationship. Might not have enough stories to share with an SEE type or SLE type. I might fare better with a quiet type/person. I think it’s the appeal of SEIs, they’re so in the moment, I admire that quality in them of not looking back. However, perhaps strong ITR is still what matters most.
    FWIW my SLE friend is gung-ho about being with girls who have little experience, I think it makes him feel like the girl is more loyal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StereoTYPE View Post
    True. It's all theoretical. However, as Jung described originally, your Dual will actually make you weaker and stifle self-development due to avoidance of developing the Inferior function. Duality being a cure-all romance is Ausra's theory. Furthermore, Gulenko's concept of Duality is more accurate romantically as it equates to a Conflict relation that should harmonize over time if it doesn't implode within the first month or so. Duality's most optimal use, in my opinion, is in a dynamic and professional workplace environment, basically a business setting. I suppose it's also important to consider that certain "Dualities" have a higher success rate than others.

    The fact that you believe in Ausra's idea of Duality makes me smile. Regardless, I agree with Jung's idea over Ausra's first and foremost after my personal experience with Duality (both of us typed by VG). If anything I'd say that Duality evolves over time in all three ways. Birth, life, death. What that means is that it starts out like Jung's Concept, Lives like Gulenko's Concept, and Dies as Ausra's Concept (if the end result, the "Dualization" happens). But, that's just my theory right now. One idea I have is that types repulse types by default (unless Identical) and no relation is good or bad, it depends on mutual interests and openness, which is a bit more realistic.
    Duals provide a good example of how to use your inferior in a balanced way, so when you are on your own you can almost just mimic what you learned from them. Stifle perhaps, but make you weaker? how? You're already 1D.

    Well damn, all the duals I've met were not conflict relations that had to get past an implosion phase, they were more like meeting stranger relatives. Conflict relations can seem interesting at first and then quickly you see the friction between you and the person, while duals seem like someone who you would not normally talk to but then are surprised you guys get along. I've known alot and for long periods of time and an implosion phase has never happened, hell I live with a dual now and there's never been an implosion or initial conflict that we had to get past, this is not to say I've never had conflict with a dual, but it's far less common as some other ITRs I know. I'm good friends with a conflictor right now, and I can see the areas we value in terms of IE that are different and the potential for friction if we really dived deep into our opinions, it's peaceful but we have disagreements on certain things and find it hard to see the other person's point of view without taking some time to think about it, our friendship mostly works because of shared values, but I do feel I repress myself a little bit to keep the peace, which is something in duality I havn't experienced.
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 04-04-2022 at 10:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Duals provide a good example of how to use your inferior in a balanced way, so when you are on your own you can almost just mimic what you learned from them. Stifle perhaps, but make you weaker? how? You're already 1D.
    It is actually the Semi-Dual that does this, according to my own research, and Model G. A "function" is a form of energy to me, you can develop the ability to tap into this "energy" on your own by taking the needed steps that pertain to its activity, however this training can regress if someone takes care of it for you. So yes, weaker too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Well damn, all the duals I've met were not conflict relations that had to get past an implosion phase, they were more like meeting stranger relatives.
    Unfortunately it is more than likely that you have not recognized the relation correctly. For example, with Result types, Dualities break up even quicker than for Process types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StereoTYPE View Post
    It is actually the Semi-Dual that does this, according to my own research, and Model G. A "function" is a form of energy to me, you can develop the ability to tap into this "energy" on your own by taking the needed steps that pertain to its activity, however this training can regress if someone takes care of it for you. So yes, weaker too.
    Unfortunately it is more than likely that you have not recognized the relation correctly. For example, with Result types, Dualities break up even quicker than for Process types.
    I don't know how Semi Dual would teach you better than a dual. I've gotten practical advice from Semi-dual and it's always missing the Si detail component, I'm told what to do but no step by step how to do, and subconsciously I seek those step by step details or I can't get moving.

    I think you can become more comfortable and familiar with using a certain IE, but I don't think that comfort goes away just because you're around a dual. I see it more like dipping your toe in water, on your own you might dip your toe in your lower IEs but never fully submerge yourself in them until you have no choice, which is an imbalanced use, but your dual shows you how to swim, other types can teach you about your 1D functions but I think it's communicated more psychologically smoother from a dual, less obstacles for the information to get into the mind.

    I could say similar and say I don't think you've met a real dual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I don't know how Semi Dual would teach you better than a dual.
    People use their Inferior function in a way more similar to their Semi-Dual rather than their Dual, it has to do with shifts in the psyche.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I don't think that comfort goes away just because you're around a dual.
    I think it is not about comfort, it is about capability and the need to use. If you have a specialist that can do something for you, naturally you will let them do it - that is how the relation works. The intuitive comes up with an idea, the sensor executes it in the real world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I could say similar and say I don't think you've met a real dual.
    Luckily I've dealt with more than one, my sister is also my Dual in this system. So, you could say similar, out of spite, but you'd be wrong - again. I think that you should at least get a grasp on your own type, and then gain the ability to correctly diagnose relations before embarrassing yourself any further in front of me.

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    Just be yourself and you will attract your dual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StereoTYPE View Post
    People use their Inferior function in a way more similar to their Semi-Dual rather than their Dual, it has to do with shifts in the psyche.


    I think it is not about comfort, it is about capability and the need to use. If you have a specialist that can do something for you, naturally you will let them do it - that is how the relation works. The intuitive comes up with an idea, the sensor executes it in the real world.


    Luckily I've dealt with more than one, my sister is also my Dual in this system. So, you could say similar, out of spite, but you'd be wrong - again. I think that you should at least get a grasp on your own type, and then gain the ability to correctly diagnose relations before embarrassing yourself any further in front of me.

    I don't think you use your inferior IE in isolation, I think you use them in relation to other IEs, especially ones you value and depending on which block they are in, and your dual has you lower IEs paired together in a block like you do, so they use them in relation to the same IEs as you do.

    I agree with capability, but I don't think someone being capable in something makes you less capable. Like I said you can't go any lower than 1D with your IEs, and you'd also learn how to be much better from just observation of a dual, so when they are no longer around you have examples to draw from. Imagine that vs trying to become capable on your own.

    I could also say you'd be wrong with assuming I don't know my type or correctly. And if you wanna go and take personal shots at me go ahead this means nothing to me, still I don't think duality is this dramatic thing that could explode or be the holy grail like you say, I think duality is pretty simple and lacks alot of complications that are in other ITRs. I have dealt with more than 1 more than 2 I've dealt with around 10 duals and this implosion or dual break up has happened with only one because the person was an asshole not because of type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rune View Post
    Just be yourself and you will attract your dual.
    A kind sentiment, however, bad advice. Since people are in love with the idea of duality... The secret is that Duals are attracted by the Activating function as it mobilizes their psyche (sort of like a mating signal), i.e. SEE being attracted to LIE's ability to generate profits, and ILI being attracted to ESI's moral integrity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StereoTYPE View Post
    A kind sentiment, however, bad advice. Since people are in love with the idea of duality... The secret is that Duals are attracted by the Activating function as it mobilizes their psyche (sort of like a mating signal), i.e. SEE being attracted to LIE's ability to generate profits, and ILI being attracted to ESI's moral integrity.
    It's not meant to be kind. It just is what it is. Play to your strengths. Do what you value. Don't force anything. Your dual will gravitate towards you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rune View Post
    It's not meant to be kind. It just is what it is. Play to your strengths. Do what you value. Don't force anything. Your dual will gravitate towards you.
    It's meant to be idealistic then. You should know that you are more likely to attract a Supervisor that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StereoTYPE View Post
    It's meant to be idealistic then. You should know that you are more likely to attract a Supervisor that way.
    Explain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rune View Post
    Explain.
    I think I'll let you figure it out, it will be interesting then. I am glad I posted here today as I am reminded that conceptions without experience are void.
    Last edited by Ocean Man; 04-04-2022 at 11:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I don't think duality is this dramatic thing that could explode or be the holy grail like you say
    It's been stated over and over by multiple practitioners. You could even go to http://socionics.com which is ancient and read about it there, the description hasn't changed much in the past 20 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    If you wanna go and take personal shots at me go ahead this means nothing to me
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." - EIE wisdom from Mark Twain. I'll be taking his advice in this situation.

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