LSI and depression

[Tallmo]

My father is LSI. He is now very old, and this spring he has gone into a severe depression. The reason was an age crisis and some health problems.

He is currently very ill.

He became conscious of his "shadow" side, of all his shortcomings during his younger years.

He is not very good at dealing with his own psyche. My mom (ESI) is taking care of him but the actual psychic problem remains unsolved

He has been to a psychiatrist and got medication. (anti-depressive, and anti-psychotic)

He doesn't do anything now. He just sits in a chair all day long. Then goes to bed.

Do you have any experience of LSI and depression you'd like to share? Or any ideas?

I'm just looking for any input that I could maybe use to help him.

[Adam Strange]

He needs a reason for living.

He wants to be a needed part of a system, and he is not right now.

Two approaches.

1. Ask him what he was doing when he was last happy. Tell him to do that now.

2. Try to get him involved with some community thing where he is helping other people with their problems.

[Chae]

Simple insight from my most trusted advisor:



Conclusion - Stir him toward his creative function once again, isn't really helping.

[Tallmo]

Thanks for the ideas:

1. Ask him what he was doing when he was last happy. Tell him to do that now.

I've noticed that he likes talking about local history and how things used to be. And also connecting to people his own age (his siblings)

2. Try to get him involved with some community thing where he is helping other people with their problems.

Maybe it could work. after some time. But currently he is so ashamed of himself that he doesn't want so show himself in public. His appearence is totally different from what it used to be just a year ago, and of course he is painfully aware of it himself. His self confidence is also at zero, so even small problems (like what jacket to wear) become big problems.

[Persephone]

My gran is an LSI-Ti 1w9 and she is depressed too. Gardening helps her a lot... Also she gets uplifted when I call her and try to make her laugh.
I don't know if my advice makes any sense. I just know what it feels like... Take care.

[Bertrand]

I wonder if he wouldn't be interested in reading some philosophy or religion

being LSI seems really rough, I wish I had more to offer

[Tallmo]

Conclusion - Stir him toward his creative function once again, isn't really helping.

Yes, doing things helps. He just gave me a ride home in the car, even though he is not really supposed to be driving because of his condition. But everybody around him is constantly trying to activate him, and it doesn't help. Because the inner state is so black. But if it is something he likes doing, like driving...

[Chae]

Yes, doing things helps. He just gave me a ride home in the car, even though he is not really supposed to be driving because of his condition. But everybody around him is constantly trying to activate him, and it doesn't help. Because the inner state is so black. But if it is something he likes doing, like driving...

At least that, okay. The more obvious solution would be to look for an EIE who cheers him up & points out his future and potential. Duals can help each other through crisis. Maybe you know someone.

[Chae]

/summons @darya/

[Tallmo]

I wonder if he wouldn't be interested in reading some philosophy or religion

being LSI seems really rough, I wish I had more to offer

In May he told me that he could not handle this himself and that he was going to seek help from God. (praying etc.). At that point he didn't yet get strong medication and maybe the depression was more in a natural state. But now he is more limited and doesn't talk about that anymore. (maybe because of the anti-psychotic drug?) But i've noticed that he relates to psychic questions. I actually presented him with the synesthesia examples from this forum, and he explained some of the things he sees.

The problem is that his condition is so severe that he cant really read anything at the moment.

[Chae]

Another thing I wanted to say, medication is likely counterproductive for health. Doesn't tackle the root problem which is the major issue. Just more negative chemicals the body has to deal with.

[Tallmo]

At least that, okay. The more obvious solution would be to look for an EIE who cheers him up & points out his future and potential. Duals can help each other through crisis. Maybe you know someone.

Yes, I've been thinking about that too. His brothers wife is EIE and they are living nearby during the summer. Other than that he doesn't really know any duals. But connecting to Betas I think would be good, especially if they are his age. Because my mom is ESI they have been living in a non-opitmal realtionship and now it becomes painfully evident.

But everything is very limited. He hides himself from people right now. But maybe in a while...

[Chae]

Yes, I've been thinking about that too. His brothers wife is EIE and they are living nearby during the summer. Other than that he doesn't really know any duals. But connecting to Betas I think would be good, especially if they are his age. Because my mom is ESI they have been living in a non-opitmal realtionship and now it becomes painfully evident.

But everything is very limited. He hides himself from people right now. But maybe in a while...

Okay, if the Quadra/social route is not feasible, what about his enneagram? Six, one?

[Adam Strange]

Thanks for the ideas:

I've noticed that he likes talking about local history and how things used to be. And also connecting to people his own age (his siblings)

Maybe it could work. after some time. But currently he is so ashamed of himself that he doesn't want so show himself in public. His appearence is totally different from what it used to be just a year ago, and of course he is painfully aware of it himself. His self confidence is also at zero, so even small problems (like what jacket to wear) become big problems.

Regarding his mindset, an experiment was done with a bunch of really old men who all graduated from school at about the same time. The experimenters set up a building where the men lived for many weeks so it duplicated, exactly, the time at which they graduated. The furniture was the same, the clothes were the same, all the broadcasts on TV and Radio were from that time.

After several weeks in this environment, the researchers measured a component of the men's blood, which is a standard measure for a person's real age, and they found that in every case, the men's blood tested as being about 20 years younger than it did before the experiment began. The men also reported feeling younger. Much younger.

The takeaway for you and your father might be to supply him with films, TV shows, and music from the time when he was last in school, and get rid of the computer, the iPhones, all the junk of the modern age, and see how he responds.

We are pattern-recognition devices. Your father is having problems recognizing the patterns he is seeing and coping with new ones. For one thing, he doesn't see the point of learning this stuff. The human brain only has so much space to store data before it fills up and has to dump memories, much to our consternation.

Personally, I get pissed off every time some punk programmer at MicroSoft changes my programs to make them "better" in some perfectly useless and confusing way. That damned kid better stay off my lawn.

[Tallmo]

Another thing I wanted to say, medication is likely counterproductive for health. Doesn't tackle the root problem which is the major issue. Just more negative chemicals the body has to deal with.

I totally agree with you. But in a situation like this what can be done? My dad and mom are not open to psychotherapy. They go to a psychiatrist and of course they get ordered medication right away. I've been addressing this problem to them, but in their world you do what the doctor tells you. My dad has even said that he doesn't think that the medication will help. Or it helps with the anxiety but the real life problem is the same.

The ironic thing is that because of the depression his consciousness has expanded, so sometimes I feel that he is more sane than the rest of the family members.

[Tallmo]

Okay, if the Quadra/social route is not feasible, what about his enneagram? Six, one?

I'm pretty sure he is a six

[Adam Strange]

I totally agree with you. But in a situation like this what can be done? My dad and mom are not open to psychotherapy. They go to a psychiatrist and of course they get ordered medication right away. I've been addressing this problem to them, but in their world you do what the doctor tells you. My dad has even said that he doesn't think that the medication will help. Or it helps with the anxiety but the real life problem is the same.

The ironic thing is that because of the depression his consciousness has expanded, so sometimes I feel that he is more sane than the rest of the family members.

One characteristic of depression is that the depressed person sees reality more accurately than the rest of us.

Have you read about ESI-LSI relations? http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ness-Relations

The loan officer I'm dealing with is an ESI, and she's married to an LSI, and from what I gather, the descriptions in that link are pretty accurate.

[Chae]

I totally agree with you. But in a situation like this what can be done? My dad and mom are not open to psychotherapy. They go to a psychiatrist and of course they get ordered medication right away. I've been addressing this problem to them, but in their world you do what the doctor tells you. My dad has even said that he doesn't think that the medication will help. Or it helps with the anxiety but the real life problem is the same.

The ironic thing is that because of the depression his consciousness has expanded, so sometimes I feel that he is more sane than the rest of the family members.

Not even a placebo effect possible then :/ It's not having any potential to help like that. And as you say, his mind is less clouded in the depressed state. So that's telling us something. I.e. the depression is necessary, for whatever purpose. I mean he implies it himself when he says the meds won't change a thing, he already knows something's happening and he has to deal with it. Guess why he's in isolation! A person who retreats always knows that they have to figure something out.

Maybe it's not even depression in a clinical way and diagnosed falsely which happens all the time, the symptoms are quickly confused and not sufficiently investigated. Sit and wait, maybe this is important for him to work out thoroughly. If he takes pills he can't confront the issue, that's all I'm recommending.

[Bertrand]

Man I wish I could just sit down and talk with him, LSIs have brilliant minds but they can get stuck down really dark alleys

I feel like LSI is exactly the type that if the feel the end is near and nothing they can do will change that they just totally accept it as the logical conclusion and just wait out the end

I knew a man like that that just sat in his chair until he could barely move waiting to die until it finally happened. he wasn't angry, or irritable, beyond what you'd expect from a man nearing the end physically, it was just pure logic and he had made up his mind. Its a sad end because LSI is a natural warrior. if they accept the fight is over and there's nothing left to fight for, they seem to fall into that state which is almost admirable in its consistency but also profoundly sad because I feel like there's always something to live for, even when the war is over for you.. but the logic is so cold and unyielding

I do think at some point all you can do is make him comfortable and be there for him because if in the end he's chosen this, its his choice... maybe he just wants people to understand that first and then he can perhaps open up a little. I feel like past a certain point a man like this would take it as bothersome the concern people have for him and perhaps dig his heels in even worse. I don't know if you are religious but I would pray for him... I will pray for him

[Chae]

I'm pretty sure he is a six

There we go. The key to six is inspiring self-trust. Maybe he experiences insecurity in his contemporary state, fears abandonment. Which makes him abandon others currently. What you have to assure to him is that his social support is there to be loyal to him, and he has to be loyal, too, despite his shortcomings he will be appreciated and integrated, but it's also his effort Encourage his religious quest so he has an authority figure. An LSI needs hierarchy and the concept of God provides this. He lacks a guidance figure of some kind, it could be anything. That will repair his sense of purpose ().


In case this doesn't work and he's E1 as I suspected through the OP: he is afraid of condemnation for his errors, and at war with his own principles most likely. It's his job to accept the truths so he can be "right" again.

In both cases, he needs to know that he'll be forgiven, first by himself when he's ready, then by others.

[Chae]

@Bertrand Yeah, PoLR - no perspective or novelty left.

[Tallmo]

In case this doesn't work and he's E1 as I suspected through the OP: he is afraid of condemnation for his errors, and at war with his own principles most likely. It's his job to accept the truths so he can be "right" again.

In both cases, he needs to know that he'll be forgiven, first by himself when he's ready, then by others.

E1 is also possible. Seven as a path for growth seems right. He has always had this thing for fun and adventure. It's not really him, but something he is gravitating towards. I don't know that much about the enneagram though.

[Chae]

E1 is also possible. Seven as a path for growth seems right. He has always had this thing for fun and adventure. It's not really him, but something he is gravitating towards. I don't know that much about the enneagram though.

He could be both, just in his tritype, so the two approaches still apply together. E7 = suggestive in some way. If he is afraid of flaws or feeling "evil/bad", he's gotta be a one though, that's why I'm saying it really sounded like that in the OP. 6 fears being left to their own devices way more and the struggle is all about trust. No problem, I can help out.

[applejacks]

Depression is a terrible beast, and my heart aches for him. I've battled depression three times in my life. It's horrible, and I know how it can feel like a deep, black hole.

One of the the greatest influences for me in overcoming has been church. We are not islands, and while it's frightening to try and go out in public when we look like death, we were designed for fellowship- with friends, family, and God. But I know that depression makes it exceedingly difficult to leave the isolation that feels safe, but also hinders our help. I can only imagine how much harder it is as an introvert.

I truly believe as Christ said, it is more blessed to give than to receive- the word blessed meaning "supremely happy." If he's talking about prayer and seeking help from God- who I believe WILL help- is he open to church, giving back, volunteering on one simple project a week? Something to get him up. It will be uncomfortable at first, but when you start impacting your local community- be it the hungry or folks in need- there is such a joy, purpose, and value to life that accompanies such an activity.

I highly encourage counseling, especially Christian counseling, which can address past regrets and failures, and provide hope for the present and the future. I've often heard depression described as "the inability to construct a future."

There is also a phenomenal program called Celebrate Recovery, which consists of individuals aiming to overcome various hurts, habits, hangups, and grief through spiritual means.

regardless, he has my deepest sympathies. Above all, I want him to know that there is hope. I'll be in prayer for him, and I hope and pray that he can find his way- emotional, physically, and spiritually.

[Pole]

Depressed LSI here. We get stuck in our Ti and Ni. Our Ne-polr makes us think we don't have options or hope. Medication helped me, my depression runs deep and I've had it for the last 15 years. I would like to get back on meds so I can function better. I do not function well. What lifts my spirits is getting to see the people I love and who get me. I rarely get to see them but when I do I feel much better. I play my guitar. Rock concerts lift me up. Being in love always helps me. What REALLY helps though is medical grade marijuana.

[ooo]

Sorry to hear of this... it's not that uncommon for elderly people to experience depression, but the situation is often easily solved by getting them to join social activities and engage in personal relationships. Often they lack human contact and interaction, and this doesn't seem the case with your dad.
Depression is one bad beast, you can't really fight it alone but need the support of professional people. It's bad to rely on antidepressants and meds in general, I agree, but in some cases, that's a real help to get out of that spiraling darkness that you fall in when you're depressed.

Anyway, the already mentioned human pampering will be a good technique.. faith and praying really helps too, in times of need like this. Give your dad a big hug from the forum and tell him we want him to get back on his ass soon <3

[FDG]

May I ask how old he is?

[Tallmo]

Lastly, are you sure the pairing is right? An LSI and ESI?

Yes it is right. LSI+ESI. It's not a common combination, I know.

He is not depressed from the relation. It is a real life crisis. It's just that he is not very good at handling that.

Maybe an Fe value friend could pay social visits and he could try walks, yoga, stretching? He needs Se and Fe and as much as you can arrange for him.

Yes, he gets that from my ESE sister. But he is so ill that he would need someone who could actually understand him. A therapist. So I have suggested that to him.

[Tallmo]

May I ask how old he is?

83

[Tallmo]

Sorry to hear of this... it's not that uncommon for elderly people to experience depression, but the situation is often easily solved by getting them to join social activities and engage in personal relationships. Often they lack human contact and interaction, and this doesn't seem the case with your dad.

Yes. He generally needs that. But right now he is in such a deep depression that he is not able to communicate with people in a normal way.

[squark]

If you can get him outside, even just to be sitting in a chair outside instead of inside, the sunlight can help. Audiobooks if he likes those since he can't read right now might be nice to get his mind turning ideas over, and walks or anything physically active if he's able to do that with his health problems.

[wacey]

Been with an LSI long-term and they really need to engage their Se to be happy. Intense workouts, martial arts, yoga, walks, soccer ...something! They really need some physical challenge or they start by being cranky and long-term will get down right depressed.

It's nice to hear an alpha SF understand this.

[Tallmo]

If you can get him outside, even just to be sitting in a chair outside instead of inside, the sunlight can help. Audiobooks if he likes those since he can't read right now might be nice to get his mind turning ideas over, and walks or anything physically active if he's able to do that with his health problems.

Yes, we have forced him to go outside (otherwise he would just sit in a dark room all day). I noticed that he likes driving, even when depressed, so maybe he can continue that.

On the other hand I am questioning the idea of activating him. I am curious to what would happen if he could just do what he does. Let's say sit in a dark room for a week. Would he be able to process something then?

But that's not possible. The ESI wife prevents that.

[wacey]

My LSI does not come home right after work. He is involved in various sports, martial arts, the gym etc. etc.
Spends about 1.5-2 hours at it each night. The days he misses his activities he is grumpy to be around.

There is something 'caregiverish' about this sentence. Like you have encapsulated it as a sort of "little thing" he does, like you would say of a child doing "his activities". I'm not making a value judgement, by the way, only noting the choice of words here.

Yes, though, I understand very well that Se means they have got to "do something" in order to feel relaxed. In my own description of it: it looks likes a strong inside desire to move.

The image of your grumpy LSI makes me smile for some reason. What would you do to try and cheer him up? I know my ESE would suggest a movie, a TV show, a special made desert. I know, it all sounds cliche.

[wacey]

Yes, we have forced him to go outside (otherwise he would just sit in a dark room all day). I noticed that he likes driving, even when depressed, so maybe he can continue that.

On the other hand I am questioning the idea of activating him. I am curious to what would happen if he could just do what he does. Let's say sit in a dark room for a week. Would he be able to process something then?

But that's not possible. The ESI wife prevents that.

Not knowing the specific details..maybe he needs some kind of religion. I don't mean organized. I mean something that can help him frame his life experiences and come to terms with the mental aspects of his depression: as so often the emotional and motivational seem to oppress other important issues causing the depression.

What is causing this depression? I have yet to hear you discus that. What inside him is going on? What is he thinking about life? What does he think is causing this sadness? How sad is he? What has he lost?

Not able to communicate? Is it an option to just "let him be"? Depression is like that, often it just needs to run its course.

[Computer Loser]

If they had a difficult or traumatic past, LSIs tend to have a harder time moving past that, compared to present-minded SP types or future-oriented N types. LSIs are also private in nature so they're less likely going to seek help/assurance/support.

But of course, depression is a lot more complicated than that.

The best thing you can do is just be there for him.

[shakealittle]

I would aim to get him out and do anything! The more time he spends doing nothing the more time he is thinking and dwelling on his own problems. Vicious cycle.

Sounds like he needs to feel like he has some purpose. Can he get involved in charity in some way?
LSIs definitely like to feel like they have some responsibility

I would also suggest maybe getting him into contact with someone going through a similar thing to him if he's open to it.

LSIs can be stubborn making changes, I am guilty of this. But once the change has happened we usually adapt and wonder why we didn't do it sooner.

Exercise is very good for depression but I'm wondering if he has that ability. Maybe doing stretches etc.

[Tallmo]

I'm going hiking for a few days. Into the deep forest to escape internet. Will continue the discussion when in back. Thanks for all the answers so far

[velveteen]

My uncle's an LSI, used to work as an engineer for years. He's retired now and I think having a lot of time to himself actually gets to him. He thinks a lot about things, sometimes I find him sitting in a dark room all alone. We usually try to keep him busy, though. He competes in golf tournaments; that's probably the happiest I have seen him. When he's talking with his golf buddies or when his kids visit him. He is also very spiritual. I think that helps him. Having some purpose, a meaning.