Astro-Socionics Model typing thread / theoretical explanation

[rat200Turbo]

For those who want to know what socionics type (or types, rather) their vedic astrology chart suggests describes them, this thread is for you.

AstroSocionics2.jpg

This is a model I've been thinking about for quite a while now. What I have here is I think the best model. There are a couple mildly controversial astrological associations but given a deeper understanding of astrology they're actually very clarifying. Socionics wise this model contains an information flow arrangement which is unconventional but also indisputably natural and obvious and I will probably discuss this part later also,

The model is actually very simple - it's really just the information elements arranged structurally and guiding a circular progression through the functions and the types. Honestly this is the simplest, most straightforward way of thinking about the functions and about socionics that there is. The correspondence to astrology is based on convention - arranging the elements in relation to the beginning of the zodiac, which for our purposes is 0 degrees leo which is the root used for assigning sign lordship; that point is being used so that the system corresponds with the sign lords.

For now, anyone who happens to want to know their astro-sociotype(s), post your birth information (preferably including place and time) in the thread and you will receive an answer; or you can just look up the information yourself and use the chart.

Just looking at the ascendant / moon, some of the well known people who I already have:
Hitta: INFj asc, ENFj moon
mune: ENFj asc, ISTj moon
hkkmr / mu: XSTp asc / moon
niffer: IXTj asc / ESTp moon
dolphin: ESFj asc / ISTj moon
bnd: ENFj asc / ESFj moon
ian: ISTj asc / ENTp moon
abbie: INFj asc / INFj moon
spider: INTp asc / ESTp moon
allie: INTj asc / ISTj moon
ashton: ENFp asc / ESFj moon
lungs: ENTj asc / ISFj moon
cpig: ENTp asc / ESTj moon
Kim: ENFj asc / unknown moon
Discojoe: ENFp asc, ESTj moon
Aylen: ESFj asc / ENTp moon
Persephone: ESFp asc / INFp moon / INTp sun
Esper: ENFj asc / INTj moon
Starfall: ESTp asc / ISTp moon
Zo: INFp asc / ENTj moon
Gilly: INFj asc, ESFj moon
scapegrace: ESFj asc, ISFp moon
Donald Trump: INTp asc / ISTp moon / ENFp sun
Hillary Clinton: ESFj asc / ESTp moon / ESFj sun
Vladimir Putin: ENFj asc / ENTp moon / ENFj sun
John Lennon: ISTj asc / ESTj moon / ENFj sun
Paul McCartney: ESFp asc / ENFp moon
George Harrison: ESFj asc / ENFj moon
Ringo Starr: ESTp asc / INFj moon
Kurt Cobain: INFp asc / INFj moon
Dave Grohl: ESTj asc / ISFp moon
Courtney Love: ESFj asc / INFj moon

Last thing is the model suggests some unusual things such as positive intertype relationships based on trines which do not follow typical quadra lines; for example, some IXTjs / INTps / ISTps can have a good and spontaneous relationship with one another as part of a trine in this system.

[ooo]

I'm glad to see you're this much into astrology. I'm sure we could develop smth nice out of this.

Going by your scheme I'd be: ISTP (Sun), ENTP (Moon), ESTJ (Asc). But I'm sure that could be worked up..

I don't think anyway that astrology should be managed to fit socionics, because it is far more layered and complex, as you know. It is subjective and can give you insights about pretty much every aspect of someone's life, not just their brain faculties and operating models, as socionics does.
But socionics operates with such a "simple" structure, mirrorred in every side you look at it, that the resemblances with astrology are just lampant, when you're used to see wheels every day... that's why I loved the Angel schemes' although they should be perfected.

Let's not forget that astrology works with 12 "types", socionics has 16. Astrology is made of 10 (official) "functions"-planets, while socionics uses 8. Personally I use 12 planets-functions, because I consider earth too, and earth is made of two sides: light and dark (your lunar and venus hemispheres).

The thing I liked the most in Angel's scheme is just what you pointed out as faulty: the opposition doesn't actually correspond to duality, to me, this is the exactly same thing in astrology, despite what mainstream astrology says (and I don't agree with most of it). If you're a Leo the duality won't be represented by the opposite Aquarius, because your energies are actually complementing those of Scorpio, that belongs to your opposite elements, ie. water. Fire and water are opposites and dual, because they mix with one another to be shaped. You'll never see air and fire elements (socionics functions) mix to form a sign, and that's why the duals, in astrology, can't be the opposites. Just contrary, or look alike. They use those functions that we somehow are used to mock.

[rat200Turbo]

Well no, a function is not like a planet. A planet is basically a ring; astrology has multiple rings simultaneously, separate pieces of information. Socionics has 1 " ring"... it's one giant ring of interconnected functions.

In astrology, opposite is duality.
This is why the 7th house is the house of "relationships" and "the other". That's conventional but that's also proven in experience and intuitively obvious...
This is why you see your wife from the 7th house - it's the other, it's the opposite, it's the dual sign.

I don't know where you read that leo is "dual" with scorpio... this is complete nonsense. It makes no spatial sense whatsoever... No one - literally no one (who has any credibility) - argues that scorpio is opposite leo. It is square to leo. It is simply not dual or opposite leo... that is just definitionally not the case.
Looks like you have abandoned thinking about astrology spatially, which is really the only method you can use to reliably wade through the endless esoteric nonsense and finally make sense out of it. You just have no bearings after you toss spatial relativity out the window, you may as well be taking concepts and throwing darts and making random connections... How can you contextualize a concept without recognizing it first as a spatial configuration? That's all the sky is - a spatial arrangement.
Thinking about the signs in terms of elements is just making you delusional. The elements are intended to describe one aspect of the sign, they are an approximation... they're not definitional... what is definitional is the spatial configuration of the planets and the angles. You act like the entire sign is nothing but an element. Frankly I don't even put much stock in the elements, they don't make perfect sense... The natural pathway of the elements is fire > air > water > earth, the astrological assignments don't follow that... honestly I could probably argue for that ordering within astrology if I wanted to. Anyway, you're getting too involved in this esoteric abstraction and losing all basis for thinking rationally.

[ooo]

I'd like to understand something about socionics functions better too... hope you can help!

For example, I tend to be a EII in most tests, my main and weakest functions are, most often than not, Ne/Fi and Te (lowest). But my Ni is usually the most used, more than Ne and Fi; but I have no counterpart of Te/Fe, as well as enough low Si/Ti, to make me a p introvert type though...

In a socionics context, how is this valuing of functions explainable? When I'm with NiFe types, I can tell we operate from different binaries, I love the exchange with them, but it's like looking at my own inverted image... that's a opposite-mirror type of relationship in socion, and it is as well in astrology. You'll share so many things with your opposites, but you can't just operate their same way...

[rat200Turbo]

The planetary placements you gave for yourself were in vedic, correct?
Do you have anything in Leo / the first half of Virgo, or Taurus / the first half of Gemini (other than moon)?

[ooo]

I follow a modern view of astrology. It makes every planet be responsible of everything. Pretty much same that happens with socionics. Planets-functions, and the way they are disposed, make a sign-type. Or how would you make a sign? Because it belongs to a element? But if so it must follow a triplicity, a numeration of the elements in space, and that's geometry, already abstraction.

There's not just one way to look at an opposition, and not just one way to look into astrology. I don't follow Vedic because I don't agree with its methods, it uses sideral and then mid-points and abstract elements, that's too much confusion, for me.
To me it's all abstract, it all follows a mathematical reasoning. Applied to all the elements you have, sure. Then, aha. You'll find your opposite is really the opposite, because you don't share the same element with them. Your dual is always on your same side instead, because it will complete you.
1-7 is not just the self and others. 7th is the house of enemies, contracts, too. The opposite. If you learn to cope with yourself, you'll achieve your 7th. While your dual gives you joy no matter what.

[rat200Turbo]

Sidereal is the only method that stands up to scientific scrutiny and the only method I'm interested in. I just do not waste my time on tropical methods that have been thoroughly debunked in experiments time and again.

You don't seem to understand what the simple word "dual" actually means... it literally means opposite.

You have alot to learn about marriage if you think your dual gives you joy "no matter what". No, marriage is... among many things, a contract. There are many positive things about it also, but part of it is living up to your obligations. That's reality. Obligations are part of interacting with other people, it's inescapable... Maybe the first 5 years of your honeymoon delusion will tell you otherwise, it's just not the case. 7th house is others, spouse, relationships, contracts, love, art, and vicious enemies too (though usually 6th and 8th are more associated with enemies). That is just how it is... If you deny this fact you are not an astrologer and you have not grasped astrology, you are simply a clueless fraud and you should be ignored...

Anyway, if your placements aren't in vedic than we can't go any further.
... though I can just look and subtract 23 degrees and see you'd be ISFp sun, ISTp asc, and INTj moon.
Si is your main function, not Ni. Which actually makes alot of sense judging by your arguments. It is easy to mistake process for content sometimes, the content you're dealing with is traditionally thought about as Ni but you really are thinking about it in a very Si manner. ISFp / ISTp corresponding closely to scorpio, it tends to be very interested in things like astrology and the occult ... occult is about things that are hidden, Si as a function is interested in what exists inwardly - and can go into the inward depths to search out and identify what is. This content is what you are confusing for Ni... but honestly Si has been overassociated with sensations, which is a simplistic way of describing it... yet look at the way you think about the signs - in terms of the elements; it's almost like you are dwelling on the particular aspect - the element, in a sensation sensing physical manner, with respect to the sign when you talk about it - what you ignore is the spatial configuration, the possibilities of a more orderly system (such as the ideal configuration of fire > air > water > earth, or an ideal configuration of duality)... Really this perfectly captures your way of thinking. I don't believe you use Ni, you simply dwell on content that is of an occult nature but has been identified through Si.

You are ISTp / INTj / ISFp, use strong Si, primarily need Ne from others ... Ti is also fairly strong in your case (you have sort of shown that also with your interest in this topic)

[ooo]

Oh no I used western, changes right: Isfp (Sun) Intj (Moon) Estj (Asc)... makes more sense!

[Hays]

http://vedicastrologycenter.net/vedi...rt-calculator/
^Used this site for Vedic chart calculator and received the result of:

Ascendant - Taurus
Moon - Virgo
Sun - Sagittarius

But what the heck does it mean for Socionics type?

[ooo]

are you any of those types?

[Hays]

So Taurus is ENTp.
Virgo is both ENFj & INFp?
Sagittarius is both ESTj & ISTp?

Well that's 5 types...

So what is the reigning type - lucky dip?

[rat200Turbo]

Leshay: you need the degree. If it's above 15, you're the type of second half of virgo... below 15, first half.. Same w/ Sagi.
To get the degree you can try to find a different online vedic calculator, you can post your information, or you can download 'jagannatha hora' and do it yourself.
Ascendant is probably most important, moon 2nd most important... sun is not as important as those.

hybrid: your asc should really be ISTp now, since vedic is over 22.5 behind western... you may want to check that again. Si and Ti are your main functions, you have probably mistaken Si for Ni due to the occult nature of the topics you are interested in and the generally crappy misconceptions about Si.

[Hays]

Leshay: you need the degree. If it's above 15, you're the type of second half of virgo... below 15, first half.. Same w/ Sagi.
To get the degree you can try to find a different online vedic calculator, you can post your information, or you can download 'jagannatha hora' and do it yourself.
Ascendant is probably most important, moon 2nd most important... sun is not as important as those.

hybrid: your asc should really be ISTp now, since vedic is over 22.5 behind western... you may want to check that again.

I looked at the degrees and with the Virgo for Moon the degree is 02.5 so does this then more fit in the INFp field?

With Sagittarius for Sun the degree is 15.31 so just in the ESTj field?

[rat200Turbo]

Yeah moon is INFp, sun is pretty much in between but a little more ESTj than ISTp. ... you could just say you're a "SiTe" hybrid in that respect. But like I said moon is most important along with asc, which seems to be ENTp. So really I'd call you an ENTp / INFp - assuming your ascendant isn't above 22.5 degrees taurus, inwhich case you'd become ENFp / INFp.

[Hays]

Yeah moon is INFp, sun is pretty much in between but a little more ESTj than ISTp. ... you could just say you're a "SiTe" hybrid in that respect. But like I said moon is most important along with asc, which seems to be ENTp. So really I'd call you an ENTp / INFp - assuming your ascendant isn't above 22.5 degrees taurus, inwhich case you'd become ENFp / INFp.

My ascendant is above 22.5 being 27.42.
So ENFp /INFp for me would be the outcome...

The site I am using has now changed my degrees so I don't recommend the site I linked above.
Now it says my Taurus ascendant is 1.51 degrees being ENTp!
Could it be doing something with my name I type in as I am just typing in random...
Will try again!

Used a different Vedic chart using the South Indian chart style which gave different results being:
Ascending Taurus 25.17 so ENFp
Moon Libra 02.24 so ESFj
Sun Capricorn 09.28 so ENTj

Why such different results....

Will try another site...results coming soon!

And here they are:
Ascendant Taurus 2.18 so ENTp
Moon Virgo 09.25 so INFp?
Sun Sagittarius 16.29 so ISTp?

A European site led to the result of ISTp...*sigh*

[rat200Turbo]

Yes

[ooo]

Please Lesh tell us if those results correspond to your type too!

[Hays]

So overall on these different sites under the system shown in first post I would likely be an ENXp?

There are South Indian Vedic charts and North Indian Vedic charts and who knows what others...

As for my actual Socionics type it's still in assessment, lol!

[huiheiwufhawriuhg]

I'm cancer moon and leo asc, which makes me INFj/INFp. LOL this doesn't really make things any more clear. �� On the other hand, I don't see how leo's an introverted sign. It's description is among the most extroverted in the whole astrology.

[Persephone]

Interesting even if I i did not get how it works. Leo = typical extravert + e3 imo.

I am Leo sun and moon and Aquarius ascendant.
Capture.JPG
What does it give?

[rat200Turbo]

Persephone: you are ESFp / INFp and sun is INTp, though it's on the border so it's pretty close to simply being INXp.

Fay: Well, this is vedic astrology and not western astrology, for starters.. western astrology has the zodiac 23 degrees miscalibrated, and as a result their descriptions of the signs have become extremely superficial and watered down over time... to say Leo is that bubbley extraverted dramatic person is really a clueless way of thinking about them. Leo is traditionally associated with "the king". The first nakshatra in leo, magha, is symbolized by a king on the throne... a king is not some dainty little extravert and drama person. Infact a king is all about himself as an individual, derives their thoughts inwardly, confident in their own viewpoints...
When the king asserts itself this causes reactions and drama. Leos speak to the collective unconscious and this tends to stir things up. In ruling, the king is always wading through the inward projections of the masses in order to communicate with them. This is why they have talent in art and drama... they are speaking to the collective unconscious through their art. They are sorting through all the unconscious projections and making sense out of them / instigating them. They actually tend to rise up into celebrity positions, speaking to masses and acting as a "prophet" which Jung also associates with Ni... Ni actually fits them perfectly.
The first 13 degrees of Leo are part of the nakshatra magha which is ruled by ketu, this is considered probably the most "introverted" planet that there is, it is very detached. Alot like a detached king sitting on his thrown wading through the psychic projections of the masses and how he will maintain power, absorbed in his own viewpoints... they can be moralistic also. Not really extraverted in a Jungian sense. IMO Ni has, over time, become misdefined and it's no longer associated with these things as much as it should be.. when Jung first envisioned Ni it was very much associated with all these unconscious projections and the collective unconscious.

If you look at directly opposite Leo, Aquarius, it's associated with things like scientific thinking... It thinks in a very concrete, empirical way... which is what Se really looks like in practice, very concrete material thinking. I understand typically Se is nothing but "I love to dance" descriptions but this is very simplistic, there is alot more to it than that. Actually both the S signs Aquarius & Scorpio are known for being, in some cases, eccentrically hypersexual also.

Also, just a little bit about introversion - extraversion: half the zodiac is introverted and half is extraverted. Automatically you are thinking about this dichotomy differently than MBTI thinks about it (in a behavioral manner), just due to the proportion statistically... People probably tend to overassociate their schizoidesque reclusiveness with introversion (or lackthereof). Introversion from a Jungian standpoint is a functional way of thinking, and astrology is the same - in astrology the attributes of the signs are a product of their spatial configuration which is ultimately functional. Behaviors and lifestyle don't always get to that... For example if someone has been traumatized they will tend to retreat from society but they're still the same type, maybe the extraverted type they were before the trauma; their planets are still the same... using the same functions they were before the trauma. Simply looking at the outcome doesn't always imply which Jungian function is at work, you have to get to the core thought process.

[lavos]

How did you come up with the correlations in the image?

[rat200Turbo]

How did you come up with the correlations in the image?

Well, it's a long explanation but here goes:
Looking at the structures of astrology and socionics, you realize they are both built on very simple foundations.
The most critical points to notice in the zodiac are the kendra and the root point. Kendra are just the foundational square, which is made up of a division and then another division.
The root point is kind of like the core, the original undivided point where everything begins and ends.
When functional analysis divides into 2 polarities that are information aspects: dynamic/static and internal/external, they have set up such a square.
The basic assumption of creating these divisions and functions is that the system is ideal and circular, and any polarities are dividing the system proportionally.
Astrologically the root of the zodiac that anchors the square is placed at 0 degrees Leo to have the system correspond to sign lordships and make it intuitive,
So 2 polarities form a metaphysical square which is analogous to the zodiac kendras, which for our purposes is rooted in Leo, basically.
The zodiac Kendras in relation to the root we are using are the sun moon / saturn divide (solar and lunar sides) and the mars / venus divide.

From here you have to determine the 'root' dichotomy in socionics and correctly correspond it with the zodiac.
Dynamic corresponds to the solar side because, if you examine the circular motion of the zodiac in relation to the root point, the motion moving outwards from the root, being an original departure from the root, lacks any previously established parameters... so it operates entirely fluidly, without parameters, everything is movements. Like wise for static, it begins at the outermost point after a firm boundary has been established (the first polarity of duality with the root) and the movement begins compacting inward; so this half of the zodiac is operating within parameters, is no longer fluid but dualistic, is more about relativity, etc..

Outer planets / inner planets are the other part of the square, the correspondence to internal / external functions is pretty intuitive.

These configurations set up N & F being next to the root point. Since N & F are the more deeply inward and subjective functions in socionics, this is consistent with how the root point is typically thought of in astrology - being associated with the heart, with the inner life (the 4th/5th house boundary), with morality, with core convictions, with emotions, etc.. Roots always have these associations in astrology - the sun, the core of the earth, the moon, etc. all have traits analogous to internal and core processes.

From there you just take the peripheral information element which is object/field and overlay it onto the existing structure. Field is the subjective aspect and it corresponds more closely with the root of the zodiac, so it occupies the right hand side in comparison to object.
After doing this you have a steady progression starting from the very most "inward" functions Ni / Fi to the "outermost" functions Te / Se which corresponds with the inner planets sun / moon and outermost planets saturn. Ni & Fi are the deepest functions and they are right next to the root... Te & Se are the most material and external functions at the outermost point in the system... You look at the actual function / sign associations and try to see if you can make sense out of them... and I actually can make sense out of them. Therefor it works - you check the typings... they seem to be actually fairly decent. Conclude that it seems to work.

[Mori]

I used the software to calculate date from this site - Vedic Astrologer

This is my result; INFj asc / INTp moon / ESFj sun?

astrologylolol.png

[ooo]

don't worry crazed, your work was not in vain. I've enjoyed our brief encounter although I did not agree with your points. keep up the good work mouse!

[flames]

Don't really understand or agree with most of this, but I'm Sagittarius sun and ESFp (forgot what my moon and rising, etc., are but sag sounds EP + 7 not delta ST).

[Dauphin]

ISTp Sun, ENTj Moon, ISTj ascendant

[soulclap]

vedicasm.png

[rat200Turbo]

Don't really understand or agree with most of this, but I'm Sagittarius sun and ESFp (forgot what my moon and rising, etc., are but sag sounds EP + 7 not delta ST).

If you can't bother to find your vedic chart than don't comment. Your opinion on astrology is worthless, you are basically incompetent in that field. Next.

vedicasm.png

So ENTj (borderline ESFp) / ESTp (borderline ESFp) / INFp

[flames]

If you can't bother to find your vedic chart than don't comment. Your opinion on astrology is worthless, you are basically incompetent in that field. Next.

Is there a good website where I can find my vedic chart?

[rat200Turbo]

http://vedicastrologycenter.net/vedi...rt-calculator/

[lavos]

I have some questions for you:

1) Do any of the other placements (venus , mercury, mars...) matter at all in this calculation?

2) What determines which of the three placements holds more weight in the actual typing of someone? Is it random?

3) Do you ascribe to the dual-type theory? If so, how would this fit in with your theory?

4) Do the actual nakshatra placements hold any importance? Did you use them to draw the correlations?


Good that you came back. Try not to get banned again.

[rat200Turbo]

1) Since socionics models a single arbitrary ring of functions, and with the various planets you're dealing with multiple rings orbiting through the sky, it just isn't obvious how particular planets would be accommodated other than to simply have multiple function rings and multiple types ... if you wanted to get really advanced with it you could look for some kind of underlying pattern between the planets and try to systemize that. To some extent the indians have already done this. It's doable but for now the earth / sun / moon are probably all we need to look at
2) The Moon is significant because it is thought to represent a persons mind, has the most rapid orbit, is very close to the earth and orbits the earth which also makes it unique. The Sun is unique in that it is the root of the solar system. The ascendant is unique in that it represents the horizon and therefor the orientation of the earth, which is significant because you are on earth. But really all the planets are relevant.
3) If I remember right Tcaud had accommodated 2 rings. Since I'm using multiple rings the ideal model would probably look something like dual type theory, but there would be more rings obviously
4) Yes, Nakshatras are very meaningful. If you can imagine there being 27 types rather than 16, that is the level of magnification or the level of meaning that those will give you. It's just a higher resolution of meaning. Basically you look at the sign, then you zoom in within the sign and look at the nakshatra, which is a smaller portion of the sign.

[ooo]

MBTI ZODIAC.png

[soulclap]

So ENTj (borderline ESFp) / ESTp (borderline ESFp) / INFp

So how would you go about assigning a socionics type with this or more information, or do you consider this something else altogether?

[rat200Turbo]

So how would you go about assigning a socionics type with this or more information, or do you consider this something else altogether?

It is multiple types each pertaining to a particular aspect of the personality - different planetary energies. The structure of it resembles something like tcauds dual type, with more than 2 types. If you had to choose just 1 of them, it would have to be either the ascendant or the moon. I'd probably just go with a dual-type of those two if you wanted to keep it very simple and limited.
So just keeping it simple and sticking with the dual type model, you could just claim you were an ENTj-ESTp... I'd probably prioritize ascendant slightly above moon.
If you wanted to find some overarching socionics pattern to the various planets and types you'd probably have to correlate the planets with functions... which has already been done to some extent in the picture. For example, cancer is ruled by the moon and connected to Fi. Leo is ruled by the sun and connected to Ni. You could probably go crazy with this and come up with a list of functions each connected to a particular planet and having a type, and call it something like "multitype" rather than "dual type". That could work but you'd still have to find some way to work the ascendant in there... you'd probably have to set it above the other types and call it the "overarching type" or something like that, that's basically what it is.

So it would look like this:
overarching type (ascendant)
Fi type (moon)
Ni type (sun)
further types to include:
Fe & Ne type (venus)
Si & Ti type (mars)
Se & Te type (saturn)
then you'd have to work these in somehow (they fall in between two functions):
ST type (Jupiter)
NF type (mercury)

[niffer]

I like your thinking and the creativity but I just have to say this is weird lol

[rat200Turbo]

That's not even the weirdest of things out there, Niffer... it's up there, but not quite the big cahoona.

[FreelancePoliceman]

I don’t understand the OP, honestly, but for any statistics’ sake my Vedic sun sign is Gemini, and both my Ascendant and moon are in Libra.

[mclane]

Just in case rat is reading this: This correlation seems to have something to it, but what I believe right now is that each hypothetical sector representing a type (be it each nakshatra, or the correlation represented here) carries the energy of one type, and its conflictor [at the same time]. I think this is true because of the fact that I believe I have noticed that identical twins are either identity, or conflictor. While this could be explained via a variation of the ascendant degree (if it's the case that varies the sector during the birthtime span between twin and twin), I think this a more likely explanation.