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    Default Which types underestimate people?

    Hello everyone ,

    I have some problems with a coworker whom I type as ISFp or ESFj.
    As soon as any marginal problems arise that have loosely something to do with my field of work he thinks I am responsible because I am the newbie. It always turns out that something else is the problem and he could have solved it on his own by thinking a few seconds longer or by checking some documents.
    He thinks that I have no direction in my career, he underestimates my learning process without evidence (which I see as negativism trait). He usually goes by his subjective impressions.
    He chose to take me under his wing. I don't like to be the fosterling of anyone. His behavior is costs me hours.
    He is the only one who behaves that way. Everyone else (including supervisors, boss) told me that I'm doing my job very well.
    I already talked to him and he seemed understanding about it but he didn't change his behavior. It's been 8 weeks and he still treats me as if I'm not able to tie my own shoes.

    I would like to understand which types (and why) are prone to underestimating people or how interrelationships come into play.

    Maybe if I know where his behavior comes from I'll know how to talk to him about it, so he can leave me alone. I feel like he will be pissed if I tell him that his guidance is useless to me and time consuming.

    edit: I'm not saying that I don't need help from anyone. I have a lot to learn and since the guy before me was lazy everyone is positively surprised about my results. I would be happy to learn from the ESTj there but he is busy all the time. That other man however slows down my progress and I fear that he goes to my supervisor (again) to complain about problems that turn out to be hot air afterwards
    Last edited by Cosmic Teapot; 07-15-2017 at 01:47 PM.

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    I've come across one ESE who was like this as a combination of caregiving behavior, weak Ne (not able to evaluate others' qualities/potentials) and weak Te (not noticing the actual results) Obviously most ESEs aren't like this, and so I wonder what factors contribute the most to adopting this kind of protective/somewhat patronizing stance. I never did find a good way to address it as I wasn't around her for too long, so I'm sorry I can't be more helpful.

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    @squark, you are helpful thank you I guess ESE fits my coworker pretty well. That means we have a supervision relationship. Sigh, my lack of expression did irritate him quite a bit the first few weeks. Sometimes he looked at me as if he was trying to figure out if I'm a human being or a dead fish.
    Yeah, I'm friends with an ESE and she does not patronize me that way (anymore). But I don't know why she stopped.

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    Ive noticed that non thinking egos tend to assume that proficiency in the thinking-sphere comes through primarily experience alone and that lack of experience is the first thing they attribute any problems they identify to, so they home in on new people as the source of error as a default proposition. it comes off as insulting to thinking egos who likely know where the real error lies, and thus feel like theyre unfairly being singled out. but like squark said its a projection rooted in feeling-caregiving a lot of the time, and they don't mean to insult you, rather its just that that's how they understand Te style development based on their own general ineptitude and they're trying to help by focusing on it. it comes off as maternal and condescending a lot (not to mention flat out wrong) but its really rooted in their own assessment of themselves and they're trying their best on the basis of that

    from the Te perspective it feels like the whole institution is run on scapegoating rather than identifying the actual source of malfunction but its just because Fe management doesn't fully understand Te, and the conflict runs both ways, Te gets feelings hurt cause it likewise doesn't understand Fe

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    LSE under estimate people from what I've seen especially if they "just" saw your work and don't extrapolate the end results of it : to "focused" on process. You are either doing it "their" way or you are doing it wrong. Regardless of the end results. The one exception being their mirrors SLI, whose style of process/ results is totally different, yet somehow trusted by LSEs because "it gets the job done". This only seeing the most obvious logic of actions in any given moment makes for "stress filled frustration" on the LSEs end. It stems from double shot of blind intuition. They make these leaps of: "not done the right way (my way)" ----> "incompetent" ----> "I will just do it myself."

    Without that "hidden talents" Ne, they underestimate people's abilities frequently. Sometimes incorrectly assuming everyone is "an idiot" in need of continuous teaching/supervision (which suits EIIs just fine). Unless they know said person has "formal" training (tickets, proven exp, degree), the training wheels stay on for a looooong time. Which ultimately becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy of micro-management. "All decisions need to be made by me."

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    I feel like LSE will surprise you though, because if you ask them "why" in regards to their preference that you do it a certain way they almost always have a very good explanation as well as the patience to walk you through it. so the assumption by the accused is that LSE lacks Ne but it very well may be the reverse once you investigate their reasoning instead of chalking it up to "lol rigid LSE"

    LSEs are pretty good at what they do, and if it is in fact the case that you do it better, they're open to it... it just seems unlikely from their point of view that that is the case because they've put significantly more time into things and seen a lot of shit. they're like the opposite of ESE who just assumes new = wrong on the basis of lack of Te. Rather LSE tends to know precisely why such a thing is .001% less efficient because they've put in excessive effort as a product of lack of Ni; if anything they're being petty because they fail to properly evaluate the return on effort in squeezing out that extra performance vs the time required to get someone on that level, which is the real failure of intuition. they can be bossy because they don't realize whatever return they stand to gain on the basis of pestering someone is not worth it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I feel like LSE will surprise you though, because if you ask them "why" in regards to their preference that you do it a certain way they almost always have a very good explanation as well as the patience to walk you through it. so the assumption by the accused is that LSE lacks Ne but it very well may be the reverse once you investigate their reasoning instead of chalking it up to "lol rigid LSE"

    LSEs are pretty good at what they do, and if it is in fact the case that you do it better, they're open to it... it just seems unlikely from their point of view that that is the case because they've put significantly more time into things and seen a lot of shit. they're like the opposite of ESE who just assumes new = wrong on the basis of lack of Te. Rather LSE tends to know precisely why such a thing is .001% less efficient because they've put in excessive effort as a product of lack of Ni; if anything they're being petty because they fail to properly evaluate the return on effort in squeezing out that extra performance vs the time required to get someone on that level, which is the real failure of intuition. they can be bossy because they don't realize whatever return they stand to gain on the basis of pestering someone is not worth it
    Don't get me wrong, I know why they do it. It's just fundamentally in a nutshell, they do have tendencies to underestimate people's working abilities, even if such underestimation is warranted because of the reasons you just extrapolated on.

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    LSEs are the consummate professional, I just personally prefer working on the ground with SLIs, and have the LSEs off making the bigger moves and not with me "in the trenches." Which again, is very hard for them to remain handsoff in all levels of the work place.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    LSEs are the consummate professional, I just personally prefer working on the ground with SLIs, and have the LSEs off making the bigger moves and not with me "in the trenches." Which again, is very hard for them to remain handsoff in all levels of the work place.
    Yes, this is very typical LSE, what you also described earlier. It is Ni polr. Very "acute" or "neurotic" approach to ongoing processes. Ni gives a person the ability to see a situation in terms of momentum, process or a flow. With LSE everything is a snapshot. "Omg, you did this or that mistake, you made one wrong step". In the worst cases this leads to the LSE interrupting perfectly well working situation, and making problems were there were non in the first place.

    One can also observe this in how some LSE/ESE treat children. Interrupting and creating problems were there are non.

    But it depends a lot on how balanced the person is overall. That goes for every type. PoLR problems get accentuated in some people.

    I am also quite sensitive to this behaviour from the LSE/ESE to this because it hits my Role.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    In the worst cases this leads to the LSE interrupting perfectly well working situation, and making problems were there were non in the first place.
    yes, you got it exactly. I was trying to hit on this with saying it was more of an Ni problem than Ne, although they are intimately related

    One can also observe this in how some LSE/ESE treat children. Interrupting and creating problems were there are non.
    my parents (ESE/LSE) would remove me from school and put me in a different one whenever I got in trouble. I went to around 10 different schools before I dropped out of high school completely at 15

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    According to socionics intertype the one underestimating you could be your benefactor.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...efit-relations


    Descriptions by various authors

    Valentina Meged, Anatoly Ovcharov

    Beneficiary experiences activation in the presence of benefactor, tries to help him, to do something. He understands the needs of his partner very well, but reciprocity exists only in the beginning. Over time the harmony in these relations breaks down for the reason that benefactor is dismissive of the arguments and conclusions of beneficiary, and even tries to impose his own point of view and control his behavior. However, beneficiary feels that it is difficult for him to refuse in anything for such an admirable, authoritative partner. This inequality in future may lead to arguments, at which time the beneficiary will wish to distance from the benefactor.

    The benefactor perceives his partner as someone who needs his protection, patronage, and advice. He appeals to the desire of the beneficiary to understand him and help him in difficult situations, but from his point of view the assistance is not effective, thus he involuntarily underestimates the abilities of beneficiary or starts increasing his demands. The benefactor can partially take on the execution of responsibilities/work, but over time he becomes tired on this and loses interest in his partner. Benefactor may feel irritation because he is unable to understand the requests and needs of the beneficiary. Beneficiary, in turn, trying to reach an understanding, can begin to over-dramatize the situation. He feels that the benefactor is not considering his interests and may make attempts to re-educate his partner, but this proves to be useless. The benefactor still does not understand what was wanted of him.

    The matter can end with break up of relations if the beneficiary does not accept his role and continues finding faults with the benefactor instead of simply helping him accomplish common tasks or projects. Mutual work is what unites this pair, in this case the relationship becomes stimulating and productive.
    V.V. DarkAngelFireWolf69, A.V. Molodtsev, "Introduction to socionics"


    These relations are asymmetric: first partner relates to the second not in the same way as the later relates to the first. First partner, who is called request transmitter, or benefactor, looks at the second partner, called beneficiary, as someone who is a rank lower, underestimating him. The second partner, on the contrary, thinks that the other partner is an interesting, meaningful person, overestimating him at first.

    Beneficiary can become very fond of benefactor and admire his behavior, demeanor, ability to easily do that to which the beneficiary aspires, the style of his thoughts, his creative approach. In presence of benefactor, beneficiary unwittingly begins to try to win his favor, to please him, for some unknown reasons to himself. This starts with little things and then progresses more and more. From aside it looks as if the beneficiary is trying to somehow justify himself to the benefactor.

    At the same time there is something in behavior of benefactor that the beneficiary finds irritating. Those features that the benefactor demonstratively puts forward to attract attention and look good in public view seep into the subconscious of the beneficiary and awaken a vague desire to remove the conditions that make the benefactor act so unnaturally. The beneficiary may also be unaware what is it exactly that he is supposed to do? The issued request is not individual, but social in nature i.e. it encompasses problems of the groups of people to which this pair belongs.

    From aside, relations of benefit look smooth and conflict-free. Initiator of these relations is almost always the benefactor. Beneficiary feels that deep inside the benefactor is positively predisposed towards him. The benefactor tries to encourage and support the beneficiary in any way possible. Reciprocating feedback only happens at initial stages. Further attempts to establish relations on equal conditions are not successful, the reverse connection does not get any better. The benefactor, alas, does not hear the beneficiary. As a consequence of this, beneficiary moves away and tries to keep distance from the benefactor, sometimes may even start to pick on him by way on his base function which is much weaker in benefactor. Thus, these relations can be called a relations of patronage/protection in the absence of reciprocate action. Over time, the beneficiary may begin to completely disregard the benefactor. This happens when request has been fully understood as a social one.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    The combination of weak and rational: LSI, ESI, LSE and ESE IMO.
    “We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand.” Randy Pausch

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    I flatter myself that I, an LIE, am pretty good at evaluating how good a person is at a task, and what their potential is. I'm less certain of what they actually want to do with their lives. I try to make no assumptions in that area.

    I've discovered that people I know only peripherally come up to me and ask me if I can find them a job. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't. I know a lot of people, and I can usually match a person to a job which would be a good match if I know of a job being available, and if it isn't, that often is not an impediment to their being hired by someone who could use them effectively.

    Case in point: A friend of mine (SLI) wrote software for many years and was laid off. Another guy I know had complained to me that he can't find guys with the discipline to write the kind of software (100% military) that his company writes. I called up the second guy and told him I know of a guy who is steady and disciplined and smart and a hard worker and he should call him and interview him. I said, "Jeff, there is only one potential problem with this guy. He is a lifer" (meaning he stays with an organization forever, which I view as demonstrating a certain aversion to risk).
    Jeff said, "No, no! We want lifers."
    Jeff hired my friend and he's been working there ever since.

    My friend claims he owes his job to me, but I'm not accepting the responsibility for that.

    I could judge very well their respective needs and skills, but not so much their respective wants.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 07-15-2017 at 10:06 PM.

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    I have seen ESE doing some sort of work to help employ people. I think it goes well as long as... well, getting a job means mobilizing people on boths ends. Of course she was also good at looking for contacts.

    Some EII are worst at getting that I can think my way through things without experience -> ha ha, he studied this thing. Then they go to their home tease themselves with similar problems using books as authoritative material. I have hard time at understanding this because they can reason quite well on abstract level.
    Last edited by Sanguine Miasma; 07-15-2017 at 10:39 PM.
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    Little update: The problem solved itself. I guess people have to get used to each other before they can work together effectively and I'm lucky to be in an environment where mutual respect is a requirement. The SF coworker changed his behavior over the course of a few weeks and gives me more trust. I on the other hand will be more understanding of what I perceive as shortcomings. After all that's what Socionics is for me: understanding why people do what they do and adjust to make it work. Thank you to all who took the time to read and post.


    Previously I started a similar thread about my new LIE boss (COO to be precise). The situation here is pretty good also. I don't see him often ( hierarchy) and he gave me a shitload of trust from the first minute and talks as if I'm the best working student the company could hope for. Which is really nice but I'm not used to getting so much positive feedback (from everyone), so I feel like everything is to good to be true and more than I could hope for. No communication problems so far. Very easy actually. He even offered me a contract once I've finished my degree but it's too far down the road for me to take it for granted.


    edit: "shitload of trust" is 2-am-me expressing things more negatively than necessary. What I mean is "a lot of trust" which isn't unusual with LIEs (and it's heartwarming) but it still freaks me out a bit. What if it turnes out that I'm a psycho!
    Last edited by Cosmic Teapot; 07-27-2017 at 12:43 AM. Reason: Corrected a word

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    Well my boss, estj.

    He sucks to the bones like seriously?!!!! I hope for their project to fail. Lollllll!


    Just do reverse psychology.. And dgaf i think those two works well.

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    Could be weak and ethics, those are needed to size up a person. The STs are candidates here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Could be weak and ethics, those are needed to size up a person. The STs are candidates here.
    Yeah the SJs especially STJ

    I really don't like estj.. :/

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    @idontgiveaf If your philosophy is to not give a fuck it's no wonder that you have problems with your ESTj boss. Ironically this thread is called "Which types underestimate people?"- maybe it's you who underestimates your ESTj boss. Maybe it's your Ti-Polr.
    There are three sides to every story and my main goal with these kinds of threads is to understand the people who have an impact on some areas on my life and learn what is necessary so I can work with them - not against them. That being said I think your mindset ("I hope their projects fail") is childish and a barrier to everything that could lead to successful communication and solving problems. I hope your ESTj really just "sucks", otherwise it's your attitude that needs some reevaluation. However thanks for sharing your point of view.


    edit:
    There is a book I really like with the title "The subtitle Art of not giving a Fuck" and I can recommend it to everyone who wants a dose of stoicism for his life. Maybe you'll like it, too, idontgiveaf
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...-giving-a-f-ck
    Last edited by Cosmic Teapot; 07-27-2017 at 10:20 AM.

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    If you follow cognitive styles when it comes to sizing up then LII-SLE-ESI-IEE with holographic panoramic cognition are most focused on it.
    Most receptive types to this are therefore ESE-IEI-LIE-SLI.

    We can see supervision ring therefore we can also conclude that this process has blindspots on type basis.

    All in all you can not be completely holistic in this as it is more or less cherry picking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Teapot View Post
    @idontgiveaf If your philosophy is to not give a fuck it's no wonder that you have problems with your ESTj boss. Ironically this thread is called "Which types underestimate people?"- maybe it's you who underestimates your ESTj boss. Maybe it's your Ti-Polr.
    There are three sides to every story and my main goal with these kinds of threads is to understand the people who have an impact on some areas on my life and learn what is necessary so I can work with them - not against them. That being said I think your mindset ("I hope their projects fail") is childish and a barrier to everything that could lead to successful communication and solving problems. I hope your ESTj really just "sucks", otherwise it's your attitude that needs some reevaluation. However thanks for sharing your point of view.


    edit:
    There is a book I really like with the title "The subtitle Art of not giving a Fuck" and I can recommend it to everyone who wants a dose of stoicism for his life. Maybe you'll like it, too, idontgiveaf
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...-giving-a-f-ck
    Not giving a fuck is different with not liking someone? Who am i? Perfect? No emotions?!

    Ofcourse everyone hates someone. Like you don't like my opinion, take for an example . and you're butthurt. Joke.

    Well, the reason why i don't like him is that he underestimate me. So what shall i do? Love him? Sorry I'm not masochist enough to do that.

    And yeah I'm childish, so what? Atleast not like my estj boss who are too serious about life and who only wants to be on top every fucking time, and thinks that everyone should respect him when he doesn't even think if he deserves it.

    I give enough respect to people who deserves it. I bow down to worthy people who deserves it.

    But my boss sucks and i still hope for our project to fail xD

    Call me childish and idgaf.

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    SLEs are the worst offenders at this, in my personal experience. Of course, it depends on how balanced they are. But even when they are decently balanced, they seem to have an embedded automatic strategy of devaluing other people to place themselves on top of their own personal mental hyerarchy.
    ESIs-Se are also sufficiently bad at evaluating other people's specific skills, they sometimes give very superficial evaluations and can dismiss potentially good people fairly quickly on the basis of their specific actual needs. Fi subtypes don't seem to suffer from this problem.

    LSEs are more focussed on work, maybe they underestimate someone's results, but I haven't seen them personally dismissing people "as a whole", their criticism seems to be more circumstantial...

    At the opposite end of the spectrum, IEEs are probably the best at correctly evaluating someone's potential, followed by LIEs I think. Yes, both these types may idealize people, but they also provide the right amount of motivation if someone's really interested in becoming good at something they have "potential" in.
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    @Cosmic Teapot, @idontgiveaf. How refreshing! Two people with very different approaches to life, but neither one is feeling sorry for themselves. I love that attitude.

    Cosmic Teapot, you are super-competent and super-reliable, tell your LIE boss that you need your own office with a soundproof door, a salary with 5% company-matched retirement, health care, keys to the building so you can work your own hours and come and go as you want, and you will consider a long term job there. The LIE's ILI accountant can show him how to set this up.

    Idontgiveaf, just find a job as a salesperson on commission, with an ILI partner who can show you how to make and keep the most money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Cosmic Teapot, @idontgiveaf. How refreshing! Two people with very different approaches to life, but neither one is feeling sorry for themselves. I love that attitude.

    Cosmic Teapot, you are super-competent and super-reliable, tell your LIE boss that you need your own office with a soundproof door, a salary with 5% company-matched retirement, health care, keys to the building so you can work your own hours and come and go as you want, and you will consider a long term job there. The LIE's ILI accountant can show him how to set this up.

    Idontgiveaf, just find a job as a salesperson on commission, with an ILI partner who can show you how to make and keep the most money.
    Perfect for me. I'll keep this in mind. Thank you, Adam

  25. #25
    idontgiveaf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Cosmic Teapot, @idontgiveaf. How refreshing! Two people with very different approaches to life, but neither one is feeling sorry for themselves. I love that attitude.

    Cosmic Teapot, you are super-competent and super-reliable, tell your LIE boss that you need your own office with a soundproof door, a salary with 5% company-matched retirement, health care, keys to the building so you can work your own hours and come and go as you want, and you will consider a long term job there. The LIE's ILI accountant can show him how to set this up.

    Idontgiveaf, just find a job as a salesperson on commission, with an ILI partner who can show you how to make and keep the most money.
    Lol xD but I'm lazy xD What's the job for lazy people

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    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idontgiveaf View Post
    Lol xD but I'm lazy xD What's the job for lazy people
    Salesperson on commission. Just talk with new people whom you see only for short times, and you get money.

    Two cases, specifically.
    1. You drive to new companies, talk to them to get them to buy your company's products, you leave and get a commission and a food and hotel allowance.
    2. You work in a high-end department store, people come in, you tell them what looks good on them and why they need to buy it, they buy (or not) and leave, you get a commission (or not).

    It mostly depends on how much money you want to make (companies pay more than department stores) and if you like to drive.

    If you do #1, find an ILI to help you with your finances. I'm not kidding. This is very important for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Salesperson on commission. Just talk with new people whom you see only for short times, and you get money.

    Two cases, specifically.
    1. You drive to new companies, talk to them to get them to buy your company's products, you leave and get a commission and a food and hotel allowance.
    2. You work in a high-end department store, people come in, you tell them what looks good on them and why they need to buy it, they buy (or not) and leave, you get a commission (or not).

    It mostly depends on how much money you want to make (companies pay more than department stores) and if you like to drive.

    If you do #1, find an ILI to help you with your finances. I'm not kidding. This is very important for you.
    But i don't have the skills to do that. Like seriously i don't even know what how to start lol.

    I'm actually imagining some pyramiding scams. And i hate selling stuff to people because they don't like to be sold.

    I don't wanna be like the salespersons who are being ignored in the mall yet they're still persistent to get someone's attention lol xD

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    The SLEs I've known judge very much based on appearance. They tend to underestimate or overestimate.

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