Why I dislike Echard Tolle

[Tallmo]

For a start I'd like to say that I think he is ILI.

I don't actually dislike him. I like watching him. He looks funny, and some of the things he says are useful. He is also entertaining.

My problem is that everything is about being "present", to "surrender the ego". As if that was some kind of universal cure.

I'm not the only one who dislikes him for this.

Here is a video where someone asks what to do since she is unhappy about her job and she cannot find another job.



The answer: "surrender, be present!"

I'm sure Tolle must have read Jung and the path of individuation and going beyond the Ego. But in that case he hasn't understood Jung

Tolle himself has been through severe depression and as a result of that he came to the point where he "couldn't live with myself any longer". The following morning he woke up and things had changed. Life looked differently and the depression was over. Consciousness had expanded.

That is the right way of doing it, but he doesn't seem to understand that everybody else has to go through the same painful process.

When you are in a difficult situation and "surrender the ego", then you are doing things wrong. That's like saying that Christ didn't need to be crucified. He could just jump over that uncomfortable step and go directly to resurrection.

When you have a hard time finding a way forward in life, you've still gotta try. If you surrender you escape life. You have to carry your cross to the bitter end, and crucify yourself. You can never surrender. Only die in total dispair. Crucifixtion is a great symbol for this.

But it is possible that the right answer in the video would be that the person should in fact surrender. But only if carrying on would lead to insanity. But Tolle doesn't know that.

As an ego he sees everything in that spirit, and doesn't really care about understanding.

Some people see him as "enlightened" and I think he is in fact more "enlightened" than most of us. Because he has been through the shadow and come out on the other side. He is a modern prophet. But he does in fact preach escapism. That's what I see anyway.

[Olimpia]

*Eckhart Tolle

Sorry, I had to.

[rat200Turbo]

I do find him a bit pretentious but that's alright...
Why can't a person find a job? I've been jobless... honestly it's because I gave up looking and moved on to other things. And I really didn't try that hard... I avoided looking and did things I would rather do, it's that simple.
"Surrender. Be present">... It's not horrible advice, it just doesn't do much for people. That's kind of my objection to him - you can't do things for people, you can't talk people into their sanity. But with that in mind, there's pretty much nothing he could tell these people.
How absurd is the idea that you can go to someone, ask for advice, and then change your life? It kind of puts the control outside of yourself, you've already lost at that point.
It's not bad advice though, just recognizing that if you're going to get a job you'll have to surrender to the horrible fact and face what you're avoiding directly.
I don't think your whole analogy with the cross makes perfect sense - surrendering to the thing you're avoiding and being present is precisely that facing of the painful horrible experience which you don't want to face. Though I wouldn't say this will necessarily give you joy either...

[Tallmo]

*Eckhart Tolle

Sorry, I had to.

You see. I don't even care about spelling his name correctly. My unconscious has spoken.

[Olimpia]

You see. I don't even care about spelling his name correctly. My unconscious has spoken.

Yeah, I know.

[Chae]

Clickbait title

[Computer Loser]

But he does in fact preach escapism. That's what I see anyway.

It's not escapism.

Escapism would be more like coming home from the job that you hate, numbing your mind with Netflix and eating Cheetos to forget about your job. (Like wearing makeup to cover acne)

What Eckhart teaches is overcoming victim mentalities, depression, resentment, negative thought patterns etc. (Like reprogramming your computer)

Nobody actually WANTS to live with negative anti-social angry-at-the-world mindsets...except maybe those emo kids from high school lol.

However, many of us in fact are so reactive to our surroundings, and we ping off the environment to determine how we should feel about ourselves.

-When Eckhart Tolle says "surrender the ego" it basically means to stop living in reaction to our surrounding, circumstances, struggles, etc.

Ex: I just got a rude phone call from a customer today. I could have reacted to her emotionally by getting angry, focusing on how she's hurting ME and hurting MY feelings, and letting that ruin MY day, and having it spiral MY emotions out of control, or I could instead keep cool and calmly resolve the situation.

-When Eckhart Tolle says "be present in the moment" it basically means to live in the here and now, stop worrying about the past and future.

Ex: Think of being present like dancing; when you're dancing you're totally immersed in the moment and you can't worry about your bills or that waitress that spilled spaghetti on your new lacoste T-shirt. Applying this to the woman's situation in that video, instead of focusing on her awful situation, her focus could be shifted to, "OK this is my situation, what can I do NOW to find a job?"

If we're constantly living in reaction to our emotions/ego/surroundings/whatever, we can't forge the proper mindsets. But if we develop proper mindsets, regardless of how we get there, it can make it more natural/easier to execute the steps to overcome our life circumstances.

You can develop better mindsets to take action, or you can take action to make better mindsets. Eckhart Tolle focuses on the former.

BTW it was nice seeing a biblical reference

Remember Paul rejoiced while he was in prison.

[ashlesha]

That is the right way of doing it, but he doesn't seem to understand that everybody else has to go through the same painful process.

This is essentially my issue with teachers like him. I'm not opposed at all to "surrendering the ego" per se, and I don't think it's escapism when it's done right. But if you don't face the crucifix as you said, you could just pop in some Enya, take a bubble bath, and call it a day. You can't just snap your fingers and expand your consciousness. I'm inclined to think trial by fire is really the only way. I feel pretentious as heck talking about this tho because how much do I know

[Tallmo]

It's not bad advice though, just recognizing that if you're going to get a job you'll have to surrender to the horrible fact and face what you're avoiding directly.
I don't think your whole analogy with the cross makes perfect sense - surrendering to the thing you're avoiding and being present is precisely that facing of the painful horrible experience which you don't want to face. Though I wouldn't say this will necessarily give you joy either...

She is grasping for air. She has already tried things and now asking Tolle for advice, maybe it will help. No, it won't, and then she will maybe try something else. Until there is nothing more to do. Then the surrender comes, but that is not something that a person does, it comes to you like death.

Its possible that we're talking about slightly different things though. I am basically talking about the importance of staying in life with all its hassle, to keep trying and being disappointed. Until there is nothing more to do. Because we all have our limits. If it is done to the max then transformation comes.

[Sanguine Miasma]

I can appreciate it a bit. I tend to lack this.

However the implementation irks me. It is like exercising role in lazy way. In a way I can see things through same eyes bit like my SEE sister, although it is not preferred and strong. There's not that much of glory in it at all. Pfft... but bit handy.

The way he speaks... Ist is like watching paint dry and emptying your mind. I think the process of paint drying what things affects it etc. Being in purely dumb(?) state is not preferred way. It lacks something.

[Raver]

I generally agree with what you are saying. The example of Christ you use is interesting because you can elaborate that to the extent that Jesus was someone like Eckhart Tolle who expanded his consciousness, which is why he became so influential.

Also, you mention Eckhart Tolle not being aware that the way he attained higher consciousness is the best way, but I do think he is aware that is the best way, but it is not the most pleasant way so he uses alternative methods, which will of course never be as effective.

I think there is a spectrum of consciousness as opposed to Eckhart Tolle level vs. normal level. So perhaps his true goal is to get everyone to higher their level mildly or moderately as opposed to extremely. Everyone has their share of experiences that helps them ascend to varying levels.

I imagine an extreme case of consciousness ascension similar to Eckhart Tolle to be like this IMO:

[Tallmo]

-When Eckhart Tolle says "surrender the ego" it basically means to stop living in reaction to our surrounding, circumstances, struggles, etc.

But isn't that a perfectly normal and sane thing to do. (I think it is) As long as one doesn't let it swallow oneself totally.

-When Eckhart Tolle says "be present in the moment" it basically means to live in the here and now, stop worrying about the past and future.

Well, here again, why would worrying be bad? If it pushes you to action, would it be just a natural feeling.

If we're constantly living in reaction to our emotions/ego/surroundings/whatever, we aren't going to have the proper mindsets. And developing proper mindsets, regardless of how you get there, can make it more natural/easier to execute the steps to make your difficult situation/life better, find a job, whatever.

ok, I basically agree, but this is not an either-or situation. You can have both. It's totally sane to worry, to react, to get upset, angry. As long as you don't let it take over your personality.

BTW it was nice seeing a biblical reference

I love biblical references, or any mythological references. It says so much more.

Remember Paul rejoiced while he was in prison.

I haven't studied my bible that well. I'll do it some day

[Computer Loser]

But isn't that a perfectly normal and sane thing to do. (I think it is) As long as one doesn't let it swallow oneself totally.

You answered your own question. Many people do get swallowed in it.

Well, here again, why would worrying be bad? If it pushes you to action, would it be just a natural feeling.

Same as above

ok, I basically agree, but this is not an either-or situation. You can have both. It's totally sane to worry, to react, to get upset, angry. As long as you don't let it take over your personality.

You answered your own question. Many people do let it overtake their personality.

The FACT of the matter is, people are wayyy too imprisoned by their ego. Hell, 2 people got killed/shot over a spilled drink.

Even here, in this very thread, we can see the ego taking over: "I don't need to listen to teachers like Tolle!" "What he teaches is ridiculous!" "He sounds stupid when he talks!" "I'm above all that stuff!" etc This is literally where our brains SHUT OFF from growing/learning and runs off reaction/emotions with our noses in the air, looking down from the mountain top. Ego is attached.

Versus being open to understanding whatever he teaches and adapting/making it our own. Ego is not attached.

I don't think Tolle's intent was to make clones of himself with a bunch of people sitting on park benches staring at dry paint all day lol. Just be open to the golden nuggets and apply it to your life/specific situation.

[rat200Turbo]

She is grasping for air. She has already tried things and now asking Tolle for advice, maybe it will help. No, it won't, and then she will maybe try something else. Until there is nothing more to do. Then the surrender comes, but that is not something that a person does, it comes to you like death.

Its possible that we're talking about slightly different things though. I am basically talking about the importance of staying in life with all its hassle, to keep trying and being disappointed. Until there is nothing more to do. Because we all have our limits. If it is done to the max then transformation comes.

This attitude is kind of backwards. Yes I agree - avoiding facing that painful horrible thing grows the misery, it seeps into your entire life... until you are forced to confront it. One way or another it reaches you. But what Toll is saying, and what I basically have to agree with, is that facing it directly and getting the pain over with is the better option. Now that's easier said than done, but I don't see why we should necessarily have to utterly fail and procrastinate in order to arrive at that. Infact I don't think the avoidance of suffering and misery alone is ever sufficient for arriving at it - the person would always still be avoiding and procrastinating on some level with something, the pain is simply increasing to a point where it's imminent that they deal with it. His whole point though is that you can minimize the pain through facing it directly, it's like ripping a bandaid off very quickly basically. And I do think you can arrive at that conclusion through contemplation to some extent, though I think it does go deeper than that with alot of christian beliefs also, but definitely not an easy thing and not something you can just purely contemplate about. Probably there is some deeper spiritual component to arriving at these things which Toll is lacking in his analysis.

[Tallmo]

I generally agree with what you are saying. The example of Christ you use is interesting because you can elaborate that to the extent that Jesus was someone like Eckhart Tolle who expanded his consciousness, which is why he became so influential.

Yes, Jesus is about transformation to higher consciousness. Although it is definitely not my idea. It's depth psychology.

Also, you mention Eckhart Tolle not being aware that the way he attained higher consciousness is the best way, but I do think he is aware that is the best way, but it is not the most pleasant way so he uses alternative methods, which will of course never be as effective.

Maybe it is so. But when a person reaches his limits in life, like the person with a boring job in the video, then transformation is near. If they only will carry on and still try till the bitter end. That's why crucifixion is such a great symbol for this. You can't decide to surrender, you have to keep struggling as long as you can. So it feels like the person in the video is very near this, if they just can keep living for a little longer and not surrender. (But it seems this word "surrender" can be used in different meanings, like crazedrat did)

I think there is a spectrum of consciousness as opposed to Eckhart Tolle level vs. normal level. So perhaps his true goal is to get everyone to higher their level mildly or moderately as opposed to extremely. Everyone has their share of experiences that helps them ascend to varying levels.

That's possible. Although I don't think he is a psychologist. He is a spiritual teacher, doing the thing he knows best in his limited way. It can help some people though.

I imagine an extreme case of consciousness ascension similar to Eckhart Tolle to be like this IMO:

Yes, and lots of similar situations in film and mythology. Like "The Matrix" or "Alice in wonderland".

[Tallmo]

I would have thought Tolle was EII. He seems to have a Se PoLR (rather than valuing it). I could see arguments for him being Ni ego, but the thought of him being Se DS is just odd to me.

That could be interesting to look into. When I listen to him though I can't in any way see Ne ego. I see clear NiTe in what he says. I could give examples but there are lots of them in the video. And I don't think he is a rational type either.

I can't say much about his Se though.

[Tallmo]

So about my accusations of him promoting escapism. It's because he says things like this:

So you use what otherwise would be a boring situation and just use it as the background for presence. So you are not looking for some satisfaction in the work, but you bring a different state of consciousness to it. So in a way the work situation becomes like a canvas. It’s just an excuse for practising presence.

So my reaction to this would be: The boring work situation IS actual presence. That's the real life situation.

And if you suppress feelings of boredom. Aren't you becoming LESS conscious.

But of course his technique could be useful. Sometimes you simply have to do things that aren't that fun, and maybe you will be able to do them for a longer time if you use this method.

But then he also says that this "prescens" might somehow lead to a change to the better. A new job etc. Maybe one can see it that way. But wouldn't the boredom itself be a pretty good initiator for change?

[Subteigh]

I think it is a great gift to be able to write works of great meaning that inspire millions.

Oh sorry, my post is off-topic.

[Tallmo]

You answered your own question. Many people do let it overtake their personality.

Of course they do. But there is a middle way. This sort of Zen mentality that Tolle believes in is going to the opposite extreme. It is unconsciousness at the other end of the spectrum.

Even here, in this very thread, we can see the ego taking over: "I don't need to listen to teachers like Tolle!" "What he teaches is ridiculous!" "He sounds stupid when he talks!" "I'm above all that stuff!" etc This is literally where our brains SHUT OFF from growing/learning and runs off reaction/emotions with our noses in the air, looking down from the mountain top. Ego is attached.

Well, don't you think you are exaggerating a bit? In my OP I actually said that I like watching him and that sometimes he says useful stuff.

But yes, the point of this thread was my critique of Tolle.

Am I not allowed to criticize him? I have been presenting arguments. I think he acts as if he was a psychologist. But he isn't. He has tons of and he has been through some life transforming experiences. He has charisma and a talent for expressing himself. He is a guru.

[Computer Loser]

Am I not allowed to criticize him?

My response was for illustrative purposes since we’re talking about ego. My main point was that we all have a tendency to quickly dismiss things we don’t fully understand; Aka Not surrendering the ego.

Well, don’t you think you are exaggerating a bit

LOL. I actually do have that tendency. I know I can come off that way in my posts lol. It’s a mixture of passion and for illustrative purposes. 

Of course they do. But there is a middle way. This sort of Zen mentality that Tolle believes in is going to the opposite extreme. It is unconsciousness at the other end of the spectrum.

Some people hit so rock-bottom that they don’t have the psychological leverage if not ANY to pull themselves out of it.

Have you seen the movie Batman: Dark Knight Rises?

Well in the movie you have Bruce Wayne at the bottom of this pit he can’t seem to get out of. Physically, mentally he’s totally broken. He looks on the television screen and sees the outside world falling apart and he feels trapped that there’s nothing he can do.

There are a lot of people in the world like this. People with mental illness, people in broken families, nerds that are so depressed they become internet trolls/masturbate to weird porn or whatever. A lot of people in dark, dark places in their mind.

What did Bruce Wayne do when he was in a similar, dark place?

Well, he built his body slowly doing push ups and he tried harder and harder to climb out of the pit.

But, what ultimately helped him “rise above” the pit was to get rid of the ropes tied around his body. These ropes prevented him from dying if he fell. It was not until he let go of his fear of death that he finally gathered the strength to climb himself out of the pit. (Surrendering the Ego)

Sometimes there is no middle ground. Sometimes we hit so rock bottom that the only way to rise above is to get rid of the ropes tying us down. And sometimes this entails learning everything you can to figure out how to pull yourself out of the pit.

Like I mentioned before, it’s not like Tolle’s intention is to make everyone clones of himself or go hardcore and pray on top of a mountain 24/7 lol. Learn the core principles and apply them to your life.

[Computer Loser]

So about my accusations of him promoting escapism. It's because he says things like this:



So my reaction to this would be: The boring work situation IS actual presence. That's the real life situation.

And if you suppress feelings of boredom. Aren't you becoming LESS conscious.

But of course his technique could be useful. Sometimes you simply have to do things that aren't that fun, and maybe you will be able to do them for a longer time if you use this method.

But then he also says that this "prescens" might somehow lead to a change to the better. A new job etc. Maybe one can see it that way. But wouldn't the boredom itself be a pretty good initiator for change?

It’s not about suppressing feelings of boredom.

It’s kind of like if you were a factory worker on an assembly line doing the same thing every day…that can absolutely be boring and monotonous and seem pointless to you. But the guy beside you might love the shit out it because he takes pride in putting his piece together exactly perfect and he puts that piece together with his eyes closed to personally challenge himself now and then and he tries assembling it one-handed just to see if he can do it and he finds all the little ways to appreciate putting that piece together and get his joy out of the process rather than the end result.

Another example,

One rich kid is bored in life sitting in his mansion counting his money, while his equally rich buddy is off traveling the world and going deep-sea diving and partying in vegas and building a career just for the personal challenge. The bored kid thinks everyone is like him but the other kid can’t even relate to him. They both have money, but one is finding purpose/goals in life to get satisfaction from, while the other has none.

The difference is the inner beliefs.

[Pallas]

I don't like Eckhart Tolle, although I'm fine with his name being corrected for the sake of other people named Eckhart who I don't hate. I would've done it myself actually.

What's wrong with his idea is that there's not really a such thing as "the present moment". Think about how you perceive time. It's always in relation to other things. It's often even in relation to the future! (Example: "The pitcher is about to throw the ball.") Time perception works the same as the perception of anything else, which is through apprehension and symbols. People actually more readily perceive time by similarities than by what would normally be considered proximity, like if you're drunk you remember other times when you were drunk more readily than you remember other times when you were sober even if it was a long time since you were last drunk (for some reason this seems to be the most commonly-cited example). You need to do a lot of introspection to really understand this, and if you do you'll just start obsessing with death right after so you have been warned. The main part of Eckhart Tolle's philosophy tends to be described as "Don't think!" but I think it really comes from this incorrect perception of time. It's basically projecting the body onto an image of a clock (ticking second hand) and then trying to identify with that. Yeah, you can dissociate that way. That's gross.

It's better to just accept that suffering is inevitable (due to apprehension) and consciously find meaning in it. That's what distinguishes human beings. There's an article that says “Philosophers have often looked for the defining feature of humans — language, rationality, culture and so on. I’d stick with this: Man is the only animal that likes Tabasco sauce.” That seems pretty trivial but really that is an example of what humanity is about. Human beings enjoy things that are painful and without enough pain things seem repulsive (e.g. bland food - "spice" literally is just pain). That also relates to symbolism directly through apprehension but at this point I should just save this all for my own book(s) (which will be better than Tolle's no matter what since most of them involve fiction and stories which makes everything good even if it's awful otherwise).

...The language in this post was painful to re-read but meh.

[Bertrand]

I feel like there are at least 16 different versions of what transcendence of time and happiness looks like

a lot of this amounts to personal statements on how individuals tackle finitude, which is just a lack of time. they say awareness of finitude is what consciousness itself is--that without limitations there could be no consciousness, which does kind of go to "humans like pain" in the sense that a dichotomous or differentiated outlook on life, predicated on the inability to do it all, is precondition for human understanding... the "what its like" to be human is fundamentally awareness of finitude and various methods and takes on how to cope with that. consciousness is what we call the awareness and experience of working through that. to find meaning is to in some sense transcend the lack of time because it takes "lack of time" and does something positive with it--it says "this is better than that" and uses the lack as a springboard to action... in acting according to one's values one embraces lack of time as precondition to make a meaningful statement about life, about human experience and in doing so embraces finitude as the thing which precedes any possible value judgements and in doing so comes to terms with it ("I can't do it all, so I will do this rather than that"). specifically, this could look like any number of things, the values are as unique as every human soul and the achievements of humanity go back to individuals working out their values as a confrontation with the human condition.

there is an old cliche that says "you have to stand for something" which I think is very true. even if you are ignorant or deny all of this--that still constitutes a valuation that you live out in some way shape or form. in the end, every individual is living out their values at varrying levels of consciousness all in response to varying levels of consciousness of lack of time (finitude--death). it is impossible to get a truly objective view on the value of all this, but it is by no means impossible to subjectively experience one's actions as meaningful and thus a transcend finitude as an absolute negative--generally people experience this as happiness, which is precisely why time seems to flow differently while happy. further, its why sufficiently powerful peak experiences tend to transform one's life, because they are in some sense a strike against death itself that persists through time (in other words, a peak experience validates finitude as valuable in some sense and as such changes the way we perceive the world and our place in it--we progress beyond the stage of merely being motivated by perceived deficiencies and into promoting positive values. being meta motivated in this way constitutes a transformation of personality that is always positive)

generally speaking, I understand talk of eternal life tending to aim at transcendence of finitude not elimination of it... and that is more or less the spiritual impulse of human religious tradition, now taken up in some ways by Jungians as a new kind of priesthood

Tolle seems to me to be kind of shallow in this sense that there's nothing he's saying that hasn't been established by Maslow and Jung... but this has always been the way of the world: it always blows my mind how there are streams running in parallel that people seem oblivious to. where the things they find meaning in (comic book movies are basically retellings of bible stories) as if it somehow hadn't been there for a long time and in the same breath denigrate or ignore the originator (Shakespeare is under appreciated by popular culture in this way, not academia of course).. in the end its a pop movement for a pop audience which is a good thing if it transmits life affirming values to people that wouldn't otherwise expose themselves to them

I'd put him on the level of someone like Joel Osteen, who seems like a good dude, but not for everyone

[Pallas]

Joel Osteen doesn't really seem like a good dude, LOL

[Computer Loser]

Here's an example of being non-reactive



Instead of getting pissy/reactive at the student and veering off tangent, the teacher instead chooses to plow to her goal.