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Thread: How to appreciate EIIs/INFjs?

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    Default How to appreciate EIIs/INFjs?

    They listen and help and give advice and then they recharge and repeat. how can we appreciate them more? please step forward , don't be shy

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    Talk to the EIIs. Say, "Hello, EII. I like you."
    Then give them a picture of a hat or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Tell them how much you appreciate them. They love that. (Everyone does, but EII's mention it as a plus in particular.)

    This is easy to do, because they are usually doing something for which you can appreciate them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Talk to the EIIs. Say, "Hello, EII. I like you."
    Then give them a picture of a hat or something.
    Hmmm. A picture of a hat? Does this work? I've never tried it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Hmmm. A picture of a hat? Does this work? I've never tried it.
    Well, a picture of a paper plate worked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Make stuff work in their life and be proactive concerning their well-being

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    More later maybe, but one thing that makes me feel appreciated is if someone shows me how I made/make a difference to them. (It could be related to weak and worrisome Se.)
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Thanks for making this thread @Zero . I would like to see a thread on this for every type. Please help me and my weak .

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    What a neat topic. My son is an EII.

    I recall a time when we were fishing and he asked me in sincerity what I always think about. I found it to be an odd question out of the blue. But then I thought it more odd that I never thought to wonder what other think about. I told him that I think about things to do around the house and ways I can accomplish those things and similarly for work. He was quiet for a while and then asked if it was pictures or words. I told him I hadn't thought of such before but that it was mostly pictures. After being quiet for longer he said that he only ever thinks about people. I asked him what he meant. He said that he thinks about things that have happened and about people who were upset or not happy. He was quiet and then continued that he talks to himself constantly. He continued that he has conversations with people in his own head. He has the same conversation in different ways with different things said between the people. I asked him how long he has these conversations for. He said until things are better. I asked what if they are not better. He said that he keeps having them. I asked him when does he get tired of it if he doesn't find an answer. He said he doesn't remember. I asked how long is the longest conversation he ever had. He said the entire time and was quiet. I didn't ask him any more questions.

    It occurred to me after this that he was afraid but had no fear. What he does he always does but it never does seem to be about him. And I thought about our conversation. And I thought about how it must be to spend so long in arguments inside his own head to make other people happy.

    Someone mentioned stating that EIIs enjoy knowing they make a difference. I don't think anyone will ever know the difference my son makes on a day to day basis. After that conversation I wonder every time he speaks how much time he has spent on those words and if that conversation will ever really end. With so many things to value I wonder if anyone even knows the value he brings. When he is around people are better and the world shines brighter. I do not know if anyone else notices this or not.

    I also know that he has a keepsake box full of the most trivial things that people have given him. A picture of a plate would not surprise me. When someone is kind to him I think he will always remember it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    Thanks for making this thread @Zero . I would like to see a thread on this for every type. Please help me and my weak .
    It would be good, do SLEs ask for help?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Tell them how much you appreciate them. They love that. (Everyone does, but EII's mention it as a plus in particular.)

    This is easy to do, because they are usually doing something for which you can appreciate them.
    I think they believe telling someone you appreciate them and then not moving in the direction they have thought out to work for you and not listen to their advice is unethical, probably it has to do with painful Se, and this is what LIE does most of the time, gathers advice from people but then conducts their own plan and should always be in full control of decisions, so that is disappointing for EII.

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    I think the part with asking for advice and not taking the advice into account (or at least not letting it seem that you did) is more driving an SEI mad than an EII. An EII would like to know that the person "knows" how much EII would be willing to sacrifice for the person they are talking with. Since EII is almost all the time running such scenarios of (what can I do about this or that person in their lives or relationships to make it better) in their mind, the background energy it takes from them is sometimes really huge but incalculable of course. Therefore, what would make us feel appreciated is hearing the partner in conversation "express that they know it". It is important for us to hear whether or not it is unique or helpful the way we try to help in critical situations. For example most of the time when people fall in one-sided love or are thirstily looking for a new partner but cannot find any matching, EII is the one to (even unconsciously) come to and there is every single time thousands of different scenarios running actively behind an EII's mind to see how they can help. I have received appreciations though for what I tried, from LIE, SEI, SEE or sometimes even SLE (how great is that?). I think EII should also try to make clear what they expect. I learned it the hard way though

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidH View Post
    What a neat topic. My son is an EII.

    I recall a time when we were fishing and he asked me in sincerity what I always think about. I found it to be an odd question out of the blue. But then I thought it more odd that I never thought to wonder what other think about. I told him that I think about things to do around the house and ways I can accomplish those things and similarly for work. He was quiet for a while and then asked if it was pictures or words. I told him I hadn't thought of such before but that it was mostly pictures. After being quiet for longer he said that he only ever thinks about people. I asked him what he meant. He said that he thinks about things that have happened and about people who were upset or not happy. He was quiet and then continued that he talks to himself constantly. He continued that he has conversations with people in his own head. He has the same conversation in different ways with different things said between the people. I asked him how long he has these conversations for. He said until things are better. I asked what if they are not better. He said that he keeps having them. I asked him when does he get tired of it if he doesn't find an answer. He said he doesn't remember. I asked how long is the longest conversation he ever had. He said the entire time and was quiet. I didn't ask him any more questions.

    It occurred to me after this that he was afraid but had no fear. What he does he always does but it never does seem to be about him. And I thought about our conversation. And I thought about how it must be to spend so long in arguments inside his own head to make other people happy.

    Someone mentioned stating that EIIs enjoy knowing they make a difference. I don't think anyone will ever know the difference my son makes on a day to day basis. After that conversation I wonder every time he speaks how much time he has spent on those words and if that conversation will ever really end. With so many things to value I wonder if anyone even knows the value he brings. When he is around people are better and the world shines brighter. I do not know if anyone else notices this or not.

    I also know that he has a keepsake box full of the most trivial things that people have given him. A picture of a plate would not surprise me. When someone is kind to him I think he will always remember it.
    @DavidH, I find yours to be an amazing post. It never occurred to me that someone would spend huge amounts of time going over conversations in their heads, because I almost never do this, and when I do, I don't spend much time on it and I don't stress about it. (My thoughts on convos usually go "This person said precisely X. What are their motivations for saying X and what will this mean in the future?) However, your post explains very well a great deal of the behavior that I see in EII's.

    Caring about others, wanting to be helpful, wanting to be appreciated.

    I have been going to lunch occasionally with an EII (semi-dual) secretary for five years, and she is terrific. She does an amazing job, sets a great example of professionalism and good taste, thinks clearly if not as legally-creatively as I might like (which is actually good, I guess), and gives terrific advice which I almost always take. I always let her know that I appreciate her advice (because I really do). Professionally, she and I are an almost perfect match, but I have exactly zero hots for her, which is Infantile-Victim, I guess.
    The last time we were at lunch, we were talking about socionics types, and I described her dual, the LSE, as being a lot like me (a self-involved guy who could be an unfeeling asshole, but better than me because he has the benefit of being respectable and is able to perfect things around him), and she said those traits sounded exactly like her husband.
    I thought this was pretty good, because it means she is with a dual and I happen to believe that dual relationships are a good thing. But then she said, "He never considers things from my standpoint. He won't listen to what I have to say. He only wants what he wants, and my wants aren't important to him."
    And then she started crying. At lunch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidH View Post
    And I thought about our conversation. And I thought about how it must be to spend so long in arguments inside his own head to make other people happy.

    Someone mentioned stating that EIIs enjoy knowing they make a difference. I don't think anyone will ever know the difference my son makes on a day to day basis. After that conversation I wonder every time he speaks how much time he has spent on those words and if that conversation will ever really end. With so many things to value I wonder if anyone even knows the value he brings.
    Such an impressive observation. It gives me so much joy imagining that my LSI father would have possibly imagined me in a similar way (at some point, perhaps, I hope). What was it that helped you gett to know your son better? I always had problems explaining my motives why I decided to do what I wanted to do to my father
    Last edited by empineer; 06-09-2017 at 02:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    then she said, "He never considers things from my standpoint. He won't listen to what I have to say. He only wants what he wants, and my wants aren't important to him."
    And then she started crying. At lunch.
    Wow
    I am moved now
    moments of silence

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    a self-involved guy who could be an unfeeling asshole, but better than me because he has the benefit of being respectable and is able to perfect things around him.
    Can this possibly be an explanation matching an LII as well? I was married to an LII and what you said and how she replied somehow really sounds familiar to me and I would have reacted the same way she did. I was basically crying everywhere all the time, whenever the topic came up

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    Quote Originally Posted by empineer View Post
    Can this possibly be an explanation matching an LII as well? I was married to an LII and what you said and how she replied somehow really sounds familiar to me and I would have reacted the same way she did. I was basically crying everywhere all the time, whenever the topic came up
    Hi, @empineer.
    Well, personally, I think that her problems with her husband stem from his insensitivity, which is probably the other edge of the sword of her always having wanted a "John Wayne" type of guy, just like her own father. But what you want when you are 15 is different from what you want when you are 45. "...what is sweet now, turns so sour."

    It is interesting that you married an LII. My sister is LII, and she seeks Fe like a man in the desert seeks water. According to theory, an LII has some strength in the Te that you seek, but does not value it, just as you have 3D Fe, but don't value it.

    From this chart, it looks like an LII is a combination of an Identical partner and a Super-Ego (http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...rego-relations) partner. They have 3D Te, but they don't care that they have it.


    ..................LII EII LSE
    Valued 4D ... Ti . Fi .Te
    Valued 3D ... Ne -Ne Si
    Valued 2D ... Si - Si Ne
    Valued 1D ... Fe Te .Fi
    Unvalued 4D .Ni -Ni .Se
    Unvalued 3D .Te .Fe Ti
    Unvalued 2D .Fi .Ti . Fe
    Unvalued 1D .Se -Se Ni

    LII also have the same Te, Ti, Fe and Fi that an LSI has. You may have been attracted to the LII because they reminded you of your LSI father, but were an improved version because they had a lot of your own characteristics (Ne, Si, Ni, and Se).
    But Identical relations aren't great, because they can't help you grow.

    Note how the strengths of the relations between EII and LSE are inverted. Where you are strong, they are weak, and vice-versa. So you end up helping the other where they most need help, just by being yourself.

    .................. EII LSE
    Valued 4D .... Fi .Te
    Valued 3D ... .Ne .Si
    Valued 2D ... .Si .Ne
    Valued 1D ... .Te .Fi
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 06-09-2017 at 01:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Hi, @empineer.
    It is interesting that you married an LII. My sister is LII, and she seeks Fe like a man in the desert seeks water. According to theory, an LII has some strength in the Te that you seek, but does not value it, just as you have 3D Fe, but don't value it.
    Hi, @Adam Strange
    Yes I guess somehow I was attracted to that Te-Ti thingy and of course tons of Ne. We were a team and we had a goal to achieve and after achieving that it seemed like there is nothing left. No friendship, no future, nothing. Also somehow he found me charming at first but he was afraid to approach me. It didn't ever really change though. He needed Fe as you mentioned. As well as Si of course. Si I provided quite a lot, but it drained all my energy permanently. My previous relationships before him were also in the direction of LII, ILE, IEI. I am not sure why and how but apparently I managed to stay out of Delta and Gamma for the time I was experiencing how I can fall in love. Currently I have an LSE boyfriend and my closest friends are all Gammas and I could not possibly be happier I think. I actually decided today that what I am going to do is take some time everyday to appreciate such a peace of mind and how things seem to be on a roll; no big issues or unsolvable challenges for me anymore
    Last edited by empineer; 06-09-2017 at 02:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empineer View Post
    Yes I guess somehow I was attracted to that Te-Ti thingy and of course tons of Ne. We were a team and we had a goal to achieve and after achieving that it seemed like there is nothing left. No friendship, no future, nothing. Also somehow he found me charming at first but he was afraid to approach me. It didn't ever really change though. He needed Fe as you mentioned. As well as Si of course. Si I provided quite a lot, but it drained all my energy permanently. My previous relationships before him were also in the direction of LII, ILE, IEI. I am not sure why and how but apparently I managed to stay out of Delta and Gamma for the time I was experiencing how I can fall in love. Currently I have an LSE boyfriend and my closest friends are all Gammas and I could not possibly be happier I think. I actually decided today that what I am going to do is take some time everyday to appreciate such a peace of mind and how things seem to be on a roll; no big issues or unsolvable challenges for me anymore
    I also have fallen back on out-of-quadra relations (Beta, in particular) when my life was in crisis. I'm not sure why. Unfortunately, these tend to crash and burn.

    I, too, am starting to consciously cultivate relations with duals (ESI's), and my life is starting to iron itself out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Talk to the EIIs. Say, "Hello, EII. I like you."
    Then give them a picture of a hat or something.
    I love it that you LSE guys are not even aware of what it is you do that makes us so OK all of a sudden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I also have fallen back on out-of-quadra relations (Beta, in particular) when my life was in crisis. I'm not sure why. Unfortunately, these tend to crash and burn.

    I, too, am starting to consciously cultivate relations with duals (ESI's), and my life is starting to iron itself out.
    Hypothesis: In crisis, one feels unlike oneself, not 'fit' - the circumstances require different values and approaches. What you aren't made for (ego functions) needs adjustment. What can be handled by the ego block is likely not a crisis so it probably concerns weaker elements.

    The predecessor quadra can help establish a foundation for you to flourish again. For instance, I gravitate toward Gamma SFs sometimes - and they gravitate back - because they can implement social values more resolutely without crossing the territory of my PoLR. Where I work with , you can bet your ass that @Daddy Lessons shows up. Observe it, this works. Help with the role function tends to be productive. But yes, it crashes and burns once you go back to your default mode, especially in quadras or high types at least, IEI and ILI are an exception.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empineer View Post
    I love it that you LSE guys are not even aware of what it is you do that makes us so OK all of a sudden
    True, duality has some effortlessness but it's not sparkly fancy romancey spectacular, just feels natural that's all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    sparkly fancy romancey spectacular
    Very true.
    EII goes ahead and overreacts emotionally again lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @DavidH, I find yours to be an amazing post. It never occurred to me that someone would spend huge amounts of time going over conversations in their heads, because I almost never do this, and when I do, I don't spend much time on it and I don't stress about it. (My thoughts on convos usually go "This person said precisely X. What are their motivations for saying X and what will this mean in the future?) However, your post explains very well a great deal of the behavior that I see in EII's.

    Caring about others, wanting to be helpful, wanting to be appreciated.

    I have been going to lunch occasionally with an EII (semi-dual) secretary for five years, and she is terrific. She does an amazing job, sets a great example of professionalism and good taste, thinks clearly if not as legally-creatively as I might like (which is actually good, I guess), and gives terrific advice which I almost always take. I always let her know that I appreciate her advice (because I really do). Professionally, she and I are an almost perfect match, but I have exactly zero hots for her, which is Infantile-Victim, I guess.
    The last time we were at lunch, we were talking about socionics types, and I described her dual, the LSE, as being a lot like me (a self-involved guy who could be an unfeeling asshole, but better than me because he has the benefit of being respectable and is able to perfect things around him), and she said those traits sounded exactly like her husband.
    I thought this was pretty good, because it means she is with a dual and I happen to believe that dual relationships are a good thing. But then she said, "He never considers things from my standpoint. He won't listen to what I have to say. He only wants what he wants, and my wants aren't important to him."
    And then she started crying. At lunch.
    It is straightforward to see an individual's actions but their thoughts are their own. Until he asked if I think primarily in words or pictures I had not considered the possibility of there being a difference. Until he described the words and ways in which he thinks in I had not considered that someone may do such.

    The personality types have varying degrees of similar language. It would appear from your description that her husband is of an opposing Quadra. The description you provided was similar to the LSE but not differentiated enough from an opposing type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empineer View Post
    Such an impressive observation. It gives me so much joy imagining that my LSI father would have possibly imagined me in a similar way (at some point, perhaps, I hope). What was it that helped you gett to know your son better? I always had problems explaining my motives why I decided to do what I wanted to do to my father
    There does not need to be motives to state how one feels. It is dismissive to have someone state how they feel and to require reasonings for why they feel as they feel. I feel one way. My son feels another way. Each of my daughters and my wife feel other ways. All of society feels other ways.

    Sometimes simply stating that you feel a certain way or want a certain thing. Regardless of what is stated in return. And stating that it is how you feel or what you want without reason or rationale. That they are your actual emotions.

    People do not need reasons for feelings or rationale for feelings. Their feelings and wants are validated and acknowledged because they are human. No different than any other human. And that is a right which they maintain. And that is a right which others must respect.

    It would appear that EIIs invest much time into the feelings of others and their relationships that exist independently of the EII but that the EII does not consider its own emotions related to the self.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    True, duality has some effortlessness but it's not sparkly fancy romancey spectacular, just feels natural that's all.
    Yes I noticed that most dual-relations aren't special, because that person still doesn't fit you..e.g. someone with a very different way of life, social class, values and so on. There were duals I despised simply because of the people they were.
    Yet my most important friendship, which really influenced, changed, inspired and filled me with deep and unconditional love is indeed a dual one. I think if the foundation is good combined with enough exposure and time together then a dual relationship has the potential to become a very, very deep and intense relationship. Additionally I noticed that other types from your quadra will evoke a similar deep love within you just never as pure and intense as your dual.
    Last edited by dot; 06-16-2017 at 12:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    More later maybe, but one thing that makes me feel appreciated is if someone shows me how I made/make a difference to them. (It could be related to weak and worrisome Se.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    I think they believe telling someone you appreciate them and then not moving in the direction they have thought out to work for you and not listen to their advice is unethical, probably it has to do with painful Se, and this is what LIE does most of the time, gathers advice from people but then conducts their own plan and should always be in full control of decisions, so that is disappointing for EII.
    This thread moved away from this train of thought, in a really poignant direction (@DavidH and @Adam Strange's posts) that I love, but I just wanted to bring it back to here for a bit since I currently strongly relate to it.

    One of my close friends, an LSE, constantly asks me for advice, yet constantly is dismissive of my suggestions. Like, even if we are talking about math, where you can and should draw from logic to support your argument, he'll just say, "That doesn't feel right to me" and go do something else, as if I'm so obviously wrong that there's nothing to prove. He asks me to check the statistical arguments in his papers (a huge, tedious favor to ask of anyone) but doesn't believe me when I point out an error. When he goes on exhausting rambles about his research, I'm one of the few people who put in the time to listen the whole time, and he always has some counterargument against my suggestions, whereas if someone else suggests something, he's always deferential and quick to thank them. I've put up with this for so long, thinking that maybe I just have bad suggestions, and just being flattered that he always asks me for advice despite rarely taking it, but today another such incident prompted me to complain to a mutual friend about it, and she pointed out that it has often been the case that he treats my suggestions better when someone else is the one making them. And I'm just really mad at him now!!!!! Just stop asking for my help if you think my opinion is so rubbish!!!!!! And that's just advice on more Te stuff--fine, maybe he shouldn't listen to me on that--but he also doesn't listen to me about how to make himself happier or when I warn against working with a certain dramatic colleague. Yet on and on with asking for ever more advice that he ultimately doesn't use! It makes me feel incredibly unappreciated and taken for granted.

    Sorry to bring negativity into what has been a really touching thread. I guess I wrote about "How not to appreciate EIIs," so please do the opposite.

    Let me try to be more constructive...

    In response to the specific situation of advice-giving, I think the greatest possible reward is definitely just if the person follows my advice, it turns out well, and they tell me how it went. If for some reason you like hearing our advice but not taking it, I think it would help me to still feel appreciated if you said something like, "When you listen, it makes me feel calm in a way that few others can make me feel." Like, put the emphasis on how this interaction was useful to you, even though you're going to go ahead and not follow our advice. It's like, I just want to be useful to you, and when you don't follow my advice, I subconsciously feel like you think it was a useless interaction/that I'm useless.

    Maybe it depends on the EII's love language too?
    @Zero, why do LIEs (and apparently at least my LSE friend) like gathering advice if not to use it?

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    I suppose just letting them know that you do appreciate and value their presence and insights, and thank them often for their help and good intentions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    More later maybe, but one thing that makes me feel appreciated is if someone shows me how I made/make a difference to them. (It could be related to weak and worrisome Se.)
    I think 1d Se and 1d Te has an relatively strong need to be needed or demonstratively shown interest in

    even as a friend they seem to prefer or even require at times certain acknowledgements

    you can read some profiles about how eii will preemptively offer support or nurturing of some kind in hopes of creating repayment or 'debt' later ; this is somewhat in part because they are not very focused on directly pursuing their own needs or benefit
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    I think there's a difference between making life easier and comfortable for EIIs
    and
    actually having them feel like you appreciate and value them
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empineer View Post
    I think the part with asking for advice and not taking the advice into account (or at least not letting it seem that you did) is more driving an SEI mad than an EII. An EII would like to know that the person "knows" how much EII would be willing to sacrifice for the person they are talking with. Since EII is almost all the time running such scenarios of (what can I do about this or that person in their lives or relationships to make it better) in their mind, the background energy it takes from them is sometimes really huge but incalculable of course. Therefore, what would make us feel appreciated is hearing the partner in conversation "express that they know it". It is important for us to hear whether or not it is unique or helpful the way we try to help in critical situations. For example most of the time when people fall in one-sided love or are thirstily looking for a new partner but cannot find any matching, EII is the one to (even unconsciously) come to and there is every single time thousands of different scenarios running actively behind an EII's mind to see how they can help. I have received appreciations though for what I tried, from LIE, SEI, SEE or sometimes even SLE (how great is that?). I think EII should also try to make clear what they expect. I learned it the hard way though
    I have seen and experienced the bold
    and in line with David's post - - - there is a lot of work that EIIs do unseen and i think it comes down to accepting and understanding they are constant crafters of their interests and their relationships

    I think that's an important thing to understand about them - ideally the scrutiny and discrimination are valued ; and even if not 'agreed with' in terms of conclusion disrespecting that effort is generally a good way to Not Appreciate EIIs


    RElated to the last thing in this quote above
    It's very good practice for EIIs to get used to saying what they want or expect from people because if they do all of the work internally and only ever show people the results -much like David - they might not ever realize it -- and even then they might not have the compassion and desire to understand that David exhibited

    *lessons on delta NFs taking care of themselves and representing their interests etc etc *
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidH View Post
    It would appear that EIIs invest much time into the feelings of others and their relationships that exist independently of the EII but that the EII does not consider its own emotions related to the self.
    I think especially younger eiis realize they have so much ability to perceive and interpret external situations that they become used to this intermediate level 'work' - or 'conversations' as your son may have said

    the problematic side of it is that it is in part training but also in part manipulation

    or the desired result can be so appealing that with just a degree of rearranging thoughts and words and feelings on their part - there you go - the good result is achieved

    this can lead to martyr complexes at times or just general delta nf 'bad accounting' about efforts and who's needs are tended to
    especially if hey are 9 6 2 in the enneagram even


    eventually delta nfs have to come to terms with this disparity
    they can have the kind of relationships that they want but they can't assume their processing will go appreciated or just act like it is being appreciated or understood -- but when it is they can be happy

    and they won't have to cry when they are face to face with not feeling heard or appreciated
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    True, duality has some effortlessness but it's not sparkly fancy romancey spectacular, just feels natural that's all.
    shrug

    I've been extremely attracted to a dual for the better part of a decade


    I think it's more - when healthy - duality is not going to let you get away with things say as much as Activity might ; there is less glossing over stuff


    there are a lot of non-socionics factors that influence 'the feelings' though
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Economist View Post
    One of my close friends, an LSE, constantly asks me for advice, yet constantly is dismissive of my suggestions.

    ----
    why do LIEs (and apparently at least my LSE friend) like gathering advice if not to use it?
    This is tough
    I'm sure @Minde can 'confirm' that she dosn't like being asked for advice and then having it disregarded

    Myself - sometimes I ask for advice from people simply to get a feel for things or their perspective - and it isn't really a matter of changing my opinion or perspective
    or even if they are just in a state where they are feeling their sense of self is linked to the advice they want even if they know they want an outside perspective
    more immature versions of myself and people like me will say or act in very personally subjective and petty ways -- that's how it goes
    They just wont' want to hear different perspectives or ways they can see things differently often because it means a lot of their other assumptions are challenged too -- especially if they know that operation works really well for its intended purpose

    Everyone and every type has things like this that they do - i think even you might find that a logical-dominant person might be more apt to take pride in their logic and an ethical person the same about their ethics ; people are open and closed in different ways



    in short - to answer the first quoted question:

    because they know they desire or want feedback but aren't ready to process how what you're saying affects their inner world or conceptualizations
    I think this is - in the case of Te dominants - part of their weak Fi
    a similar thing happens with 4d Fi people when they want information and ask for it but are stubborn about how they 'prefer' or 'feel' to see certain structures or mechanics

    minds can be very petty and pouty when they are not groomed or given the right attention
    or simply when someone thinks their sense of self is on the line - even if they know they want outside perspective
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    @Economist the reason why I ask EIIs about their opinion and advice is because while they are representing the advice and talking, they show an enormous amount of care and emotions towards me, that it gives me power to get healed (mostly psychological issues) and then I can make my own decisions. But in your case solving non-psychological issues like statics etc to me it would probably be because I like hearing about EII's Ne but in the end it sounds a bit unrealistic to actually be applied in reality , and since usually they're my close friend, I somehow feel like I have the right to not do what they have told me to do,since friends wouldn't care about that, but if a stranger gives me advice, since it is not usual for a stranger to give advice, there must be some strong reason behind it, so I pay attention to it. But usually friends give eachother advice without expectations etc. I am not sure about LSE though. Hope your issue with him gets solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    I think there's a difference between making life easier and comfortable for EIIs
    and
    actually having them feel like you appreciate and value them
    Let me bring an example. I have an SLE colleague (my conflictor) with whom I don't have any problems and have never had, but I have naturally kept distance from him from the beginning. There were times when we were on business trip together, we talked an talked and talked about politics and people and relations and every topic he was interested in having a monologue or hearing an opinion on. It was in general interesting. Then later on, in the group of colleagues, I saw him quoting me, in front of me. But he had forgotten I had said those exact sentences. He remembered the content but not that I told them. He generated some origins for the quote he was making. He had found my ideas very interesting, the metaphors I brought extremely appealing but obviously it had taken him time to process what I said and the moment he came to the conclusion that it was a "wow" what he was thinking about, he no more remembered who in the first place gave him that idea. What he said was things like "a friend of mine said the other day...." and after going in the quote he added "oh it was actually this person (another colleague who is SEI) I think who said it". I was not mad. I was having pity for his disability to remember and be fair in using people's ideas and that was the climax in my brain to understand what it means to be a friend of your conflictor. In my mind, I was even laughing at him, and I was proud that my quotes are entering his monologues now. He even once quoted me in front of me saying "I had this great idea the other day that popped into my mind". As I know him, I don't take him seriously, I don't think he knows and lies. I just "know" that he cannot appreciate me, that's why I keep distance, still as friends because colleagues should be friends and he is a respectable guy except in these matters (lol).

    My dual, on the other hand, is also a colleague and we are very close to each other. He is most of the time asking for my opinion about things. I am the first one he comes to in most situations and I edit most of his stuff for him and so on. Does he appreciate? Does he take my advices? Hmmmm, I am not sure. I don't even care. For me, it is important that he understands and regularly expresses his awareness of my role in our friendship and my efforts / ideas. He somehow does that perfectly. He might randomly take my advice (most of the time it seems like he isn't taking them), but I don't expect him to take it. As mentioned in a post above, he mentions when he remembers, why he didn't take it or why he took it. That gives me the ultimate satisfaction. Sometimes I get mad why he is so silent when I am showering him with analysis of the situation or some ideas. But when he sees me mad he says come on, I am thinking about what you are saying, it is a very interesting point and I had never looked at it from that angle. Later on, after he processes, we talk about it again and it satisfies me how much he thought about what I said (and that he remembers it). Can it be a matter of memory? In this case Si? Perhaps at least partially.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empineer View Post
    I think the part with asking for advice and not taking the advice into account (or at least not letting it seem that you did) is more driving an SEI mad than an EII. An EII would like to know that the person "knows" how much EII would be willing to sacrifice for the person they are talking with. Since EII is almost all the time running such scenarios of (what can I do about this or that person in their lives or relationships to make it better) in their mind, the background energy it takes from them is sometimes really huge but incalculable of course. Therefore, what would make us feel appreciated is hearing the partner in conversation "express that they know it". It is important for us to hear whether or not it is unique or helpful the way we try to help in critical situations. For example most of the time when people fall in one-sided love or are thirstily looking for a new partner but cannot find any matching, EII is the one to (even unconsciously) come to and there is every single time thousands of different scenarios running actively behind an EII's mind to see how they can help. I have received appreciations though for what I tried, from LIE, SEI, SEE or sometimes even SLE (how great is that?). I think EII should also try to make clear what they expect. I learned it the hard way though
    I didn't notice until @UDP bolded this line, but I think this is very important. What is unique about our help. If you particularly appreciate my listening and derive a special relief from our relationship (I mean "relationship" generally, not necessarily romantic), I would love some gesture that shows you think our relationship is special, something you wouldn't do for your other friends. E.g., putting in the effort to initiate an outing related to my interests, giving me a small trinket that shows you've noticed my personal preferences, giving me verbal compliments or a title like best friend (or girlfriend *grumble grumble*).

    I do the aforementioned things too, and having one of those returned might better convey appreciation than, for example, returning listening or simply thanking us for/commenting on our advice. This is because these things take effort, attention, and initiative on your part, whereas listening/thanking are somewhat passive and too general--things you could easily do for casual acquaintances.

    Ha, am I showing EII's tendency for emotional accounting? Anyway, be careful if you try it though, because if you get it really wrong (e.g., accidentally treat a vegetarian EII to a steakhouse meal), it will be worse than if you didn't do anything at all. Though gestures with smaller deviations would still be adored (e.g., accidentally take me to my second favorite theater instead of my favorite one).

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    I think there's a difference between making life easier and comfortable for EIIs
    and
    actually having them feel like you appreciate and value them
    This is probably true. Can you give an example so that I can be on the lookout for things I should be appreciating but am currently overlooking? I think it was nice when my LSE friend helped me organize my taxes, but it didn't make me feel particularly appreciated/special since it didn't take much extra effort for him (we are on the same grad school fellowship so he basically just told me what he did). I guess another element in the "special gestures" I asked for in the previous paragraph is that they take some kind of significant effort.

    ---

    Am I sounding too demanding? T_T I don't actually expect any of this from anyone, but I'm just saying these are the things that would make me feel really appreciated.

    Maybe a good example is when my friends threw a surprise dinner party for me. I had spent the past year organizing birthday festivities and drawing cute cartoon cards for everyone, so I was kind of sad when no one even remembered it was my birthday (it was in the summer, and we are all in grad school, so we were away) or showed any indications of wanting to celebrate it even belatedly. But I was like, oh well, next year I'll just remind them myself and organize something for myself. But then, about half a year later, they surprised me with an "Economist appreciation dinner" and a card they all made together, each of them having drawn a cartoon of me. :') I was over the moon; this card is one of my most cherished possessions. (I suspect it was organized by an ILI friend, if anyone is interested in the typing of this incident.) (Somewhat ironically, I had brought gifts for everyone to the dinner, because I thought it was a normal end-of-the-semester dinner. I hope that saying that doesn't come off as show-off-y, just trying to show I'm not asking for more than I give. <__>)

    In summary, three elements of gestures that would make me feel appreciated:
    - Something personal that shows you know me well, something particularly meaningful to me
    - Something that takes some effort
    - Something I did not have to ask for myself.

    By the way, I'm happy there's considerable interest in showing appreciation for the EIIs in your lives (much thanks to @Zero for starting the topic)! I hope that something in this thread is helpful to you.
    Last edited by Saoirse; 06-16-2017 at 06:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Economist View Post
    e.g., putting in the effort to initiate an outing related to my interests, giving me a small trinket that shows you've noticed my personal preferences, giving me verbal compliments or a title like best friend (or girlfriend *grumble grumble*).

    I do the aforementioned things too, and having one of those returned might better convey appreciation than, for example, returning listening or simply thanking us for/commenting on our advice. This is because these things take effort, attention, and initiative on your part, whereas listening/thanking are somewhat passive and too general--things you could easily do for casual acquaintances.

    Ha, am I showing EII's tendency for emotional accounting?

    Though gestures with smaller deviations would still be adored (e.g., accidentally take me to my second favorite theater instead of my favorite one).

    Can you give an example so that I can be on the lookout for things I should be appreciating but am currently overlooking?
    very interesting! As much as I would like to think I am independent from the material world (sound extremely odd I know ), I actually am NOT! Of course! My dual is someone who cares about how elegant things are and should be, the professional person. So, before having been dualised, I always wondered, why is it that I give all I can to my friends or the people I care for and I see nothing in return? Or very little? After being dualised though, I can also see what I should see. I mean, I was simply overgiving in many cases. Now I make it into a trade. I know the value of the time I am putting for someone and therefore I do not feel guilty to expect the same thing back. My LSE friend says the most valuable thing a person can give you is their time and I agree with it up to a certain point. I have an LIE friend was really close to me and we had these friendship weekly rituals in which we talked about us and back then mainly about her problems and she appreciated the time we spend together and how much I am putting effort for solving her issues or helping her out (expressing it verbally). So when she afterwards disappeared because that set of problems were solved (thanks to my humenguous efforts - as she put it and I agree with her) and the new set of problems appeared for which she did not need my help apparently and she had found a SEE to spend all her time with, I was deeply hurt. It felt like my heart is literally torn into pieces! It is being slowly put back together though. But our friendship lost its original color to me.

    I think you should be paying attention how much you are actually giving to the LSE and how much you are getting back. You shouldn't feel guilty about doing that. We EIIs are good at that. There is nothing wrong with doing some accounting there. But we have to be careful also not to break our friendships for no good reason. If there is any type who will understand us in that, it is LSE. Go for it, be frank, express it frankly, say it out loud. These things are only solved by direct discussions. LSEs also need to hear it since they are not good at those calculations at all and they will love it if someone helps them understand it. If your LSE is interested in keeping the friendship real and alive as much as you are, he will find a way to make it up to you I am sure. Also, I think you should come in good terms with yourself whether or not there is any chance that you are even a teeny tiny bit romantically interested in him (are you a girl? sorry I do not know anything about details I am just talking too much now ) since LSE gets confused if there is a hidden interest towards them unexpressed. They need to see hints. Ok I stop talking now

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    Quote Originally Posted by empineer View Post
    very interesting! As much as I would like to think I am independent from the material world (sound extremely odd I know ), I actually am NOT! Of course! My dual is someone who cares about how elegant things are and should be, the professional person. So, before having been dualised, I always wondered, why is it that I give all I can to my friends or the people I care for and I see nothing in return? Or very little? After being dualised though, I can also see what I should see. I mean, I was simply overgiving in many cases. Now I make it into a trade. I know the value of the time I am putting for someone and therefore I do not feel guilty to expect the same thing back. My LSE friend says the most valuable thing a person can give you is their time and I agree with it up to a certain point. I have an LIE friend was really close to me and we had these friendship weekly rituals in which we talked about us and back then mainly about her problems and she appreciated the time we spend together and how much I am putting effort for solving her issues or helping her out (expressing it verbally). So when she afterwards disappeared because that set of problems were solved (thanks to my humenguous efforts - as she put it and I agree with her) and the new set of problems appeared for which she did not need my help apparently and she had found a SEE to spend all her time with, I was deeply hurt. It felt like my heart is literally torn into pieces! It is being slowly put back together though. But our friendship lost its original color to me.

    I think you should be paying attention how much you are actually giving to the LSE and how much you are getting back. You shouldn't feel guilty about doing that. We EIIs are good at that. There is nothing wrong with doing some accounting there. But we have to be careful also not to break our friendships for no good reason. If there is any type who will understand us in that, it is LSE. Go for it, be frank, express it frankly, say it out loud. These things are only solved by direct discussions. LSEs also need to hear it since they are not good at those calculations at all and they will love it if someone helps them understand it. If your LSE is interested in keeping the friendship real and alive as much as you are, he will find a way to make it up to you I am sure. Also, I think you should come in good terms with yourself whether or not there is any chance that you are even a teeny tiny bit romantically interested in him (are you a girl? sorry I do not know anything about details I am just talking too much now ) since LSE gets confused if there is a hidden interest towards them unexpressed. They need to see hints. Ok I stop talking now
    Do you think that LIE could have done anything differently so that you could have stayed closer friends? What is your friendship like now? Do you think she also feels it is different?

    Yes, I am a heterosexual female, and I've been romantically interested in him on and off for the past three years. He knew after the first year and made it clear he wasn't interested, though we've never directly discussed it. I hope I don't seem like one of those people who are only friends with someone to try to get in their pants, because I'm not--I've been a very supportive friend of his for years since then--but I've been increasingly feeling that there is some fundamental lack of respect from his side, taking me for granted, perhaps even attempts to take major advantage of my fondness for him. I feel like he looks down on me.

    I'm just kind of tired of him for now, like I think we need some time apart, some breathing space. For the past year, we've been operating at the same psychological distance as a romantic relationship, and I think people just get annoyed by people they're close to. I'm being at least a little unfair to him. He does try to listen to me about emotional stress in the same way that I listen to him about it. But I have to stop getting wrapped up in his academic problems, which he doesn't listen to me for anyways.

    Hehe thanks for listening to my rambles and rambling back. EII therapy rambles for the win!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Economist View Post
    Do you think that LIE could have done anything differently so that you could have stayed closer friends? What is your friendship like now? Do you think she also feels it is different?
    I am not sure if she could have done anything differently. She had a hard time when her friendship with her then trusted EIE friend broke apart for good and he started saying horrible things about her to everyone who knew her, creating a huge nasty drama which was partially based on truth. She says she is extremely angry at herself why should she have trusted such a strange person in the first place and why she should experiment with thim. She said she always was a private person and had hardly any close friends and it is the first time in her life she gets so close to someone she tells all her truth (to me). That makes her Si vibrate I think. Also, she is now in a relationship with SEE. She had thanked me to help her win him but the bad thing is that he was also partially connected to the weird EIE guy, so she somehow wanted to boycott everything related to that period of her life and spend times only with her new relationship (that I understand). The SEE also was worried that she is telling me everything and he didn't want that (my own impression). We have met only once in the past three months (after all the drama) and decided that everything between us is solved and we are still good friends. She mentioned somethings about her sexual life and that for her it was always a question whether she is a normal girl with feminine needs and now she is finally accepting the differences between man and woman and stuff like that. She also mentioned things about her not being a homosexual (which I though was relating to her conversations about me with SEE because SEEs tend to be more flexible when it comes to gender related experimenting and maybe he thought we are romantically interested in each other and that is why we became so fast so close friends, which is false). Up to now I am slightly offended by that since I am a heterosexual woman in a great relationship with an LSE since about a year and she knows that very well. Anyways. Supervisory stuff. Always similar. The friendship has lost its original color but perhaps someday it will gain a different but much more exciting new color. She also feels it is different, yes. I told her I would understand if she wants to delete any person who was present in the secret-revealing drama scenes of the dark six months of her life (that's how she thinks of it). She also says they haven't tried to solve or really discuss about it with her boyfriend because everytime they did so, it ended up hitting some really bad nerves of them both and they tend to ignore it and live with it as it is. It is complicated. Sigh.

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