ISTj parenting style (thread split)

[squark]

yeah I know if my dad had nothing going on and I said "hey, want to drive around for a few hours and do nothing?" he would likely be down. At that point the plan would be exactly that and now a lot of what he would be rigid about would be sticking to that, or if not sticking to it per se, doing everything to make it work, like maybe he'd be like yeah let me grab a coke and then he'd systematically lock the house down and turn off all the devices and make sure the dogs went outside, he wouldn't just leave. Then, when that was done we'd settle in for the trip and spend about, exactly, 2 hours driving and he would know 1 minute in exactly how many miles out we should go before we head back, etc etc. Its not rigidity or lack of adaptation for its own sake, its more about being very aware of all the elements that go into the goal and accounting for them in a way that reduces out any disruptions and virtually guarantees the objective will be met, but in a maximalist way. Its very linear, with a more or less fixed goal, and up front he will have in his mind all the steps that need to be taken in order to guarantee the outcome, in that way he's extremely proactive vs reactive. to him I feel like if he needs to react on the spot he counts that as a kind of failure, unless he's already accounted for "at moment x, we will reach a decision point based on x or y" in other words, he'd even like to be aware up front of certain potential forks in the road etc, and then he would Ti those as best he could narrowing the range down, trying to get the best handle on it up front etc etc

I feel like in general this is a good way to keep Hamlet safe who is liable to start initiatives that without this kind of maximalism could easily end up out of control. its also a way to shut down the wackier ones by running through them and figuring out if they're even possible, up front

Why did you abandon your typing of ESE for him?

[Bertrand]

Why did you abandon your typing of ESE for him?

I feel like ESEs are basically endlessly reacting, whereas LSI almost never has to

he would be down not because he's particularly socially extroverted but because I've never once in my life asked him to go for a drive and I feel like it would be a real Fi-role moment for us

[Bertrand]

Well, the things you've described about him in your posts this thread sound more Ni-polr than LSI, so if not ESE, maybe LSE.

maybe, but when I read strat's EIE LSI duality article I feel like she described him to a T

I wonder if EII doesn't do something similar for LSE in regards to the story about the guard? because I feel like that's exactly what my mom does for my dad

in the end I just don't feel like my dad is very extroverted, nor business oriented. I feel like he thinks in fundamentally ideological terms without a real concern for business logic, and said ideology is imparted by my mom. he also doesn't at all display delta values and is very hierarchically oriented and thinks in exactly those terms. very us v them, mine v theirs, what one is permitted to do vs what one isn't, based on what I think of as Ti structures of relations not really Te calculations

one thing about my dad is like, he will always help me if it in some way makes me more dependent on him, but he'll never facilitate independence from him. i feel like its a subconscious beta style mode of being that is oriented toward Hamlet. i think it creates stability because Hamlet could choose to walk away at basically any moment and what Maxim does is make that impossible indirectly via his maximalism, because dependence is a consequence of having a Ti style maximalism that covers every angle from the bottom up. i feel like i just tend to describe things from a Te point of view so maybe it colors it with a bit of intent, and theres a bit of Ni cynicism that makes everyone out to be an idiot etc, but I really think there's a synergetic dynamic between unconscious ways of being between Hamlet and Maxim that just works that I see going on between them and I'm just sort of stuck between and it annoys me sometimes

like my dad will pay for a trip if we're both going, and he knows I'm "stuck" with him, but I believe this is unconscious, he never explicitly says anything or thinks of it in that way. I believe he just thinks of it as "fair" from the point of view of some deep Ti structures (x is allowed y is not allowed--he's not creating the outcome--it just is what it is because of the "rules"--they just happen to work towards his "benefit" [1]). But he would never just give me money to do anything. it sounds like a Te calculation but I think what it is is just his general Ti "rules" that cover Te territory in a lot of ways that come out as emergent Te decisions but they're never consciously determined via a Te process. its how he comes off as sometimes manipulative from a Te point of view (mine) but is not Te at all, rather his manipulativeness would rather be Te projections of mine. from his side its entirely unconscious and possibly not even there. from his point of view Im just ungrateful or something (Ti structure of relations)--my dad is actually very not-manipulative, its more like he "channels" people unconsciously via all the checks and precautions he makes as a matter of his own psychological need to do so (in other words, its a very introverted--not extroverted--process)

i think its these kinds of unconscious Te decisions that keep Hamlet locked down, without ever rising to the level Hamlet could really perceive and "attack" thus destabilize the dyad. maxim's natural maximalism keeps Hamlet in line at the subconscious level (i.e.: Te factors are being implemented subconsciously) and since neither can perceive it directly it is seen as legit, or more accurately, not seen as illegitimate. which ultimately works out to keep them stable and moving forward

[1] which of course the "benefit" is dubious, but that would require a Fi analysis (the ethics of doing so), which remains unconscious. it does however function to keep him firmly "secured" in Ti structure of relations (social niche), but in a coercive and somewhat unhealthy (authoritarian) fashion (creates resentment, stifles growth, etc)

[Bertrand]

Ok, but consider he could still be something else. It's easy enough to see into descriptions what you expect to see (the way horoscopes can be accurate without actually saying anything.) Some descriptions do turn out to be eerily accurate for some people, but the elements/functions temperament etc need to line up too.

I agree, it definitely made me think... I like to think I wasn't "searching" for duality between them (hence initial ESE/SEI) typing for him, but it really did just click when I read her. still I think you make interesting points, and I think what it really pointed to was my own way of portraying them which tends to frame everyones actions from my own Te/Ni analytic which often makes them out to be either using or lacking one or both, etc. I laugh because I see Ti doms do this when they're like "x person seems really emotional" and a lot of times I think to myself "everyone is more emotional than you" and I think those kinds of intertype relations can cause people to overshoot the mark. like from my point of view everyone displays a lot of Ni polr qualities, etc and If i'm not careful it comes across in my writing etc

[Adam Strange]

maybe, but when I read strat's EIE LSI duality article I feel like she described him to a T

I wonder if EII doesn't do something similar for LSE in regards to the story about the guard? because I feel like that's exactly what my mom does for my dad

in the end I just don't feel like my dad is very extroverted, nor business oriented. I feel like he thinks in fundamentally ideological terms without a real concern for business logic, and said ideology is imparted by my mom. he also doesn't at all display delta values and is very hierarchically oriented and thinks in exactly those terms. very us v them, mine v theirs, what one is permitted to do vs what one isn't, based on what I think of as Ti structures of relations not really Te calculations

one thing about my dad is like, he will always help me if it in some way makes me more dependent on him, but he'll never facilitate independence from him. i feel like its a subconscious beta style mode of being that is oriented to Hamlet. i think it creates stability because Hamlet could choose to walk away at basically any moment and what Maxim does is make that impossible via his maximalism, because dependence is a consequence of having a Ti style maximalism that covers every angle from the bottom up. i feel like i just tend to describe things from a Te point of view so maybe it colors it with a bit of intent, and theres a bit of Ni cynicism that makes everyone out to be an idiot etc, but I really think there's a synergetic dynamic between unconscious ways of being between Hamlet and Maxim that just works that I see going on between them and I'm just sort of stuck between and it annoys me sometimes

like my dad will pay for a trip if we're both going, and he knows I'm "stuck" with him, but I believe this is unconscious, he never explicitly says anything or thinks of it in that way. I believe he just thinks of it as "fair" from the point of view of some deep Ti structures. But he would never just give me money to do anything. it sounds like a Te calculation but I think what it is is just his general Ti "rules" that cover Te territory in a lot of ways that come out as emergent Te decisions but they're never consciously determined via a Te process. its how he comes off as sometimes manipulative from a Te point of view (mine) but is not Te at all, rather his manipulativeness would rather be Te projections of mine. from his side its entirely unconscious and possibly not even there. from his point of view Im just ungrateful or something (Ti structure of relations)--my dad is actually very not manipulative, its more like he "channels" people unconsciously via all the checks and precautions he makes as a matter of his own psychological need to do so (in other words, its a very introverted--not extroverted--process)

i think its these kinds of unconscious Te decisions that keep Hamlet locked down, without ever rising to the level Hamlet could really perceive and "attack" thus destabilize the dyad. maxim's natural maximalism keeps Hamlet in line at the subconscious level (i.e.: Te factors are being implemented subconsciously) and since neither can perceive it directly it is seen as legit, or more accurately, not seen as illegitimate. which ultimately works out to keep them stable and moving forward

@Bertrand, this is brilliant.

Stratiyevskaya described the relationship between LSI's and LIE's as being that between the Sheriff of Nottingham and Robin Hood. The controlling law-giver vs. the uncontrollable person who exists outside someone else's law. Your above highlighted analysis of LSI's actions and motivations really gets to the heart of this difference in world-views.

I've had two LSI GF's, and they both tried to ensnare me by making me more dependent on them. As great as they were in other respects, the controlling aspects of them were deal-breakers.

And I can see how they are built for Hamlet. Yes.

[Bertrand]

this is why strat is godlike

also, LSIs never change, someone needs you; I hope this is not perceived as an attack on you

I could see if I tried to explain this to my dad he would throw his hands up and be like "so what do you want me to do?? never help??" because from his point of view this would be a massive devaluing of his contribution to the family and he really doesn't know how to do it differently, nor would it necessarily be good for my mom if he did

[Adam Strange]

You're pretty sharp, yourself, I've noticed.

[Bertrand]

You're pretty sharp, yourself, I've noticed.

thank you, I really appreciate that

[niffer]

out of respect for him however I'm doing my best to humor him in a non patronizing way. when I shifted the conversation from clothing options to how proud I was of him for all he's done for the family and how much I appreciate it, it was like I took the wind out of his sails (I only realized in retrospect maybe it would be received as such). LSIs are weird

O_o Strange .. I guess it was because it meant you could kind of "see" everything he was doing like understand his whole ruse .. so that in itself was kind of overly exposing or taking the fun out of it for him. Maybe he felt childlike for it. Oh well.

I also see that you changed your parents' typings from SEI and IEI to LSI and EIE.

one thing about my dad is like, he will always help me if it in some way makes me more dependent on him, but he'll never facilitate independence from him. i feel like its a subconscious beta style mode of being that is oriented toward Hamlet. i think it creates stability because Hamlet could choose to walk away at basically any moment and what Maxim does is make that impossible indirectly via his maximalism, because dependence is a consequence of having a Ti style maximalism that covers every angle from the bottom up.

It could also just be an irresponsible parent thing, or LSx at least, because my LSE mom is like this too.

[Bertrand]

O_o strange .. I guess it was because it meant you could kind of "see" everything he was doing like understand his whole ruse .. so that in itself was kind of overly exposing or taking the fun out of it for him. maybe he felt childlike for it. oh well.

sorry, I wasn't clear; what I mean was I appreciated him for his 29 years of work because this conversation took place on his last day at work, etc. I wasn't thanking him for the planning and effort that he was expending in regards to the trip, which I feel would have been kind of douchey since its a small thing, not worth getting emotional over, especially not significant enough to derail the current conversation. but the 29 years thing was big (he literally walks through the door on his last day and no ones there to acknowledge the momentousness of the occasion except for me--its like you just capped off a career and you're asking me about shirts? it made me emotional) and I know this is actually kind of a hard moment for him because hes got to stare down what to do next, etc etc. So I wanted to tell him that I was behind him and all that. Maybe the best thing to do would have been to avoid it via some type 7 style escapism into the plan, maybe that's what he wanted. in retrospect I should have just humored him but I was blown away by what was happening

It could also just be an irresponsible parent thing, or LSx at least, because my LSE mom is like this too.

I feel like its just how beta STs tend to execute their program on the basis of quadral values, duals, etc

I also see that you changed your parents' typings from SEI and IEI to LSI and EIE

yeah I realized the SEI typing was a product of my personal interactions with my dad at close range. once I started observing him around work (a phone call from work I overheard really is what made me realize this), I realized that the SEI was just an act brought on by our roles. He tries to be soft and Fe/Si with me (my mom always tells him "im really sensitive" so he treats me with kid gloves in a lot of ways, which is funny cause like, I was in the Army), which comes off as a ridiculous caricature sometimes, but now I think I get it. Being around real SEI brings out the difference too. and as for my mom, I realize IEI is less dramatic and way more subtle and in general less "beta" than the rest. I had the two kind of blended in my mind, which I think I admitted, it was hard for me to tell them apart. Now I feel like I got a good handle on it. EIE is way more overt in telling people what to think, whereas IEI channels them via all sorts of sideways nearly imperceptible influence (like Maxim, they tend to "arrange" situations wherein their endstate is positively determined but in an abstract moral way vs a tangible physical way; i.e.: if Maxim ensures his place in the heirarchy via covering every single base that might threaten him, esenin masterfully arranges the ethical dynamic such that it is impossible to disagree with him, but in a way that looks like its just happening; i.e.: was not intended but just the natural outcome, when it was in fact very artificial and could be otherwise were it not for their subtle manuevering. the extroverts just break the door down in comparison).

[niffer]

I feel like its just how beta STs tend to execute their program on the basis of quadral values, duals, etc

Yeah, I know that's how you feel.

[niffer]

sorry, I wasn't clear; what I mean was I appreciated him for his 29 years of work because this conversation took place on his last day at work, etc. I wasn't thanking him for the planning and effort that he was expending in regards to the trip, which I feel would have been kind of douchey since its a small thing, not worth getting emotional over, especially not significant enough to derail the current conversation. but the 29 years thing was big (he literally walks through the door on his last day and no ones there to acknowledge the momentousness of the occasion except for me--its like you just capped off a career and you're asking me about shirts? it made me emotional) and I know this is actually kind of a hard moment for him because hes got to stare down what to do next, etc etc. So I wanted to tell him that I was behind him and all that. Maybe the best thing to do would have been to avoid it via some type 7 style escapism into the plan, maybe that's what he wanted. in retrospect I should have just humored him but I was blown away by what was happening

Hmm. I wouldn't jump to the idea that it deflated or upset him just based on the above. Perhaps he was lost for words because it just took him by surprise. I am sure any parent would appreciate hearing that from their kid. Regardless, you didn't do anything wrong, so I wouldn't worry.

[Singu]

u just have too weak Se to let yourself be ensnared like that.

[squark]

one thing about my dad is like, he will always help me if it in some way makes me more dependent on him, but he'll never facilitate independence from him.

This is not type-related. Or rather not socionics type related. But enneagram 2s have this tendency.

[Bertrand]

u just have too weak Se to let yourself be ensnared like that.

fortunately for me I'm playing 4d chess and Im only ensnared when I want to be

This is not type-related.

I knew you would take it the wrong way!

[squark]

[Bertrand]

sorry, let me be more constructive

you are right in the sense that it is not positively determined to be so

rather, it is all quantum probabilistic

Ti subjectivity allows for the possibility someone could get the exact opposite approach in their head (making people independent). in the same way LSI is not determined to be Stalin, rather it has to do with what intuitions they build their world over

in the same way LSI is not determined to be Stalin, Stalin is nevertheless characteristic of LSIs way of thinking

in the same way, my dad is characteristic to a degree that other people recognize those characterics stemming from underlying the LSI structure within him

in other words, God plays dice and the dice is loaded. LSI does not have to be that way, could be otherwise, based on Hamlet or culture as a standin for Hamlet (purveyor of intuitions). in this way hollywood is like universal basic income for sensory types. but the dice is loaded: this trait/unconscious method (maximalist dependence) shows up enough that people recognize the pattern.. and further that pattern seems to be equilibrated from within the hamlet/maxim dyad such that we can infer that its "usefulness" causes it to show up in quantities greater than pure chance--which seems to be verified from experience

my dads approach is not determined by his type, i.e.: LSI does not make him that way. rather my dad's approach is a commonly observed characteristic of LSI's adaptation to the world, etc etc. LSI gives basic structure to the personality and culture/experience did the rest, giving rise to certain observable characteristics that form stable paterns over time in a sufficient number of cases to intuitively link them and its those intuitions that serve as the basis of strat's narratives, etc

[niffer]

@Bertrand looks like you've found a person to test out your daddy issues with, except she's a girl.

@squark .

[niffer]

[Bertrand]

I mean they definitely set me up for independence cause I wanted the fuck out

and if you asked them they would say they did everything they could

so a lot of it has to do with how different people view the same words with similar outcomes

the subjective interpretation of the same dynamic definitely differs among the quadra, its why strat exists etc

[Myst]

yeah I know if my dad had nothing going on and I said "hey, want to drive around for a few hours and do nothing?" he would likely be down. At that point the plan would be exactly that and now a lot of what he would be rigid about would be sticking to that, or if not sticking to it per se, doing everything to make it work, like maybe he'd be like yeah let me grab a coke and then he'd systematically lock the house down and turn off all the devices and make sure the dogs went outside, he wouldn't just leave. Then, when that was done we'd settle in for the trip and spend about, exactly, 2 hours driving and he would know 1 minute in exactly how many miles out we should go before we head back, etc etc. Its not rigidity or lack of adaptation for its own sake, its more about being very aware of all the elements that go into the goal and accounting for them in a way that reduces out any disruptions and virtually guarantees the objective will be met, but in a maximalist way. Its very linear, with a more or less fixed goal, and up front he will have in his mind all the steps that need to be taken in order to guarantee the outcome, in that way he's extremely proactive vs reactive. to him I feel like if he needs to react on the spot he counts that as a kind of failure, unless he's already accounted for "at moment x, we will reach a decision point based on x or y" in other words, he'd even like to be aware up front of certain potential forks in the road etc, and then he would Ti those as best he could narrowing the range down, trying to get the best handle on it up front etc etc

I feel like in general this is a good way to keep Hamlet safe who is liable to start initiatives that without this kind of maximalism could easily end up out of control. its also a way to shut down the wackier ones by running through them and figuring out if they're even possible, up front

Yeah that's how I work too, except I don't make the plans too detailed usually, I'll just use my Se awareness to take care of the unplanned "movable" details. But I do relate to keeping the main points of the plan in a strict way. I would know those elements too for a car drive. I'm not very focused on contingency planning in terms of making plan B, C, etc, I'm more like you say here, narrowing the range down, getting the best path planned out that avoids the Ne PoLR problems.

maybe, but when I read strat's EIE LSI duality article I feel like she described him to a T

That description is good if one gets the idea behind the details. Doesn't look like squark got it just yet.

one thing about my dad is like, he will always help me if it in some way makes me more dependent on him, but he'll never facilitate independence from him. i feel like its a subconscious beta style mode of being that is oriented toward Hamlet. i think it creates stability because Hamlet could choose to walk away at basically any moment and what Maxim does is make that impossible indirectly via his maximalism, because dependence is a consequence of having a Ti style maximalism that covers every angle from the bottom up. i feel like i just tend to describe things from a Te point of view so maybe it colors it with a bit of intent, and theres a bit of Ni cynicism that makes everyone out to be an idiot etc, but I really think there's a synergetic dynamic between unconscious ways of being between Hamlet and Maxim that just works that I see going on between them and I'm just sort of stuck between and it annoys me sometimes

I think I understand what you are talking about here. I don't have much against this take honestly. I'd of course add that it's not to be taken literally like squark seemed to. They are put more abstract than that. But then squark doesn't even get what Se creative is about, as far as I can see because she's hardly even Se, let alone Fe valuing.

Btw I like Strat's duality articles in general, they all seem to flesh out certain relationship building strategies very well and I actually can observe these in reality. (So far I only closely read the Beta ones and the LIE/ESI and LSE/EII ones, though. They are pretty long articles lol)

(...) [1] which of course the "benefit" is dubious, but that would require a Fi analysis (the ethics of doing so), which remains unconscious. it does however function to keep him firmly "secured" in Ti structure of relations (social niche), but in a coercive and somewhat unhealthy (authoritarian) fashion (creates resentment, stifles growth, etc)

Yeah level of health also matters there for the manifestation of the basic strategies.

this is why strat is godlike

also, LSIs never change, someone needs you; I hope this is not perceived as an attack on you

I could see if I tried to explain this to my dad he would throw his hands up and be like "so what do you want me to do?? never help??" because from his point of view this would be a massive devaluing of his contribution to the family and he really doesn't know how to do it differently, nor would it necessarily be good for my mom if he did

I did not perceive it as an attack. No worries. Your lines here are pretty sensible, too.

@Bertrand, this is brilliant.

Stratiyevskaya described the relationship between LSI's and LIE's as being that between the Sheriff of Nottingham and Robin Hood. The controlling law-giver vs. the uncontrollable person who exists outside someone else's law. Your above highlighted analysis of LSI's actions and motivations really gets to the heart of this difference in world-views.

I've had two LSI GF's, and they both tried to ensnare me by making me more dependent on them. As great as they were in other respects, the controlling aspects of them were deal-breakers.

And I can see how they are built for Hamlet. Yes.

How did they try to ensnare you, what things did they do?

[niffer]

I was talking about a description (which I'm trying to locate and haven't yet) that specifically talked about Maxim's parenting and how s/he encourages independence in their children from a very young age, how they will not coddle their kids and so on.

well don't take too long now

[niffer]

Here's one from the female Zhukov article @Bertrand , so maybe not all beta STs:

They try to bring up their children to be hardworking and organized, to grow up into self-sufficient adults with higher education (if she considers it as a must).

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...STp-by-Beskova

It's Beskova, not Strati, so you probably don't care.

Dunno about LSI though, anyway. Nor do I care about covering squark's ass for her.

[niffer]

You can still keep someone reliant on you without coddling them. Nevermind that she's trying to convince Bertrand even though the Strati article more or less already described the dynamic as happening and Bertrand regards Strat as god, and Adam came into the thread and reiterated that having happened in his personal life already. Note also that @squark edited her post to add that Beskova quote 22 minutes after I made my post right under her's. Shouldn't have given the tip, yikes.

[niffer]

you "like to", but can you

[niffer]

Saying "@mods" tags nobody. Are you really an Se creative?

[squark]

Saying "@mods" tags nobody. Are you really an Se creative?

I'm aware it doesn't tag anyone, but I don't know which mods specifically are currently online and I'm too busy to look and I'm sure one or another of them will read the thread. Then you can continue your pettiness elsewhere and the OP can maybe get more input.

[niffer]

Then you can continue your pettiness elsewhere and the OP can maybe get more input.

Wherever you go, I will follow.

[Myst]

As for the independence topic, what kind of independence do we mean here? LSI is seen as having controlling tendencies which definitely goes against letting others behave fully independently from them without any (Se) influence (and apparently only EIE can influence them with Fe and Intuition...), otoh I would find it important that my kids, if I get to have kids, are capable of autonomy like the Beskova SLE quote said, while I'd still want to have some influence on them. So it's not like 100% independence then in terms of them behaving totally independently of my existence/the family's existence. Make sense?

[Bertrand]

well, I think squark was right and now after spending extended time with him I'm pretty sure my dad is LSE. I do think my above speculations do work in theory, but I think in this case he really is Ni polr. it just goes to show how Ni is at spinning things that may not be true. then again I could wrong now, or wrong then, or both. either way, Ni polr sucks to be around because it frustrates itself so consistently--it wants stuff, but in trying to get it precludes the desired outcome, but cannot see the 5ft in front of itself in order to realize that and not do it

[Myst]

well, I think squark was right and now after spending extended time with him I'm pretty sure my dad is LSE. I do think my above speculations do work in theory, but I think in this case he really is Ni polr. it just goes to show how Ni is at spinning things that may not be true. then again I could wrong now, or wrong then, or both. either way, Ni polr sucks to be around because it frustrates itself so consistently--it wants stuff, but in trying to get it precludes the desired outcome, but cannot see the 5ft in front of itself in order to realize that and not do it

I think any Sensing type would reject too disconnected/unrealistic N stuff. I wondered if the planning you described was LSEish for the part that I didn't relate to but then I know some LSIs plan all the details. Shortsightedness is both N PoLRs. In photo he looked introverted and LSI more, but you can decide if he's actually an extravert and not introvert, focus on that dichotomy.

And another suggestion: if you are trying to analyze interactions with your parents, Socionics will not get you very far beyond some bits, I recommend application of other psychology theories too.

[FDG]

I have a LSI aunt...I used to fight a bit with her because I thougth she was too controlling with my SEE and IEI cousins...but now that we are all adults...I think honestly she was right, they needed a bit of control...