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Thread: Socionics can be a dangerous tool!

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    Default Socionics can be a dangerous tool!

    I wonder why i don't see it mentioned more often than I think it should be mentioned.

    since I have found Socionics, life is easier, I can know myself better, why I am the way I am, I can understand people better, I can predict them, accept them, and be excited by things they do since "wow I had read in X article you would do this and you did it!!!" "so that's why X and Y get along and Z and T don't" "oh so that's why he disagrees" "yeah nothing's wrong with that look it is explained right here..." etc etc

    I think socionics is addictive. specially for logical types like myself since we will to a larger extent rely on it for figuring people out and predicting them than an ethical type would. anything addictive is blinding and I think socionics can be blinding. well I didn't think so until an ESI friend mentioned how it can "make you less observant" and "when you look at children, they have no prejudgments so they are really observant"

    While the theory has helped me be more at peace with myself, it has also changed my view on people so much that I am sometimes blind to their mistakes, the reasons for my conflicts with them, caring enough so solve misunderstandings cause "it is just the way it should be, I am not supposed to understand you! you are SEI!" or "Why should I be upset that X did that?! X is my dual!"

    so I think it is very important to note that we should be careful with it. not rely on it more than our own observations of individuals. thinking "SLEs are supposed to be assholes" is not a good excuse to give them more rights to act in a way an EII shouldn't. expecting an EII friend to listen to you when you are upset since they are "the Empath" shouldn't make you upset when they are busy with work.

    and the part about "famous people types" can also be funny. would give you pride for no reason, "wow Mr.Mrs.BlahBlah has the same character as I do". or well it doesn't make a difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    and the part about "famous people types" can also be funny. would give you pride for no reason, "wow Mr.Mrs.BlahBlah has the same character as I do". or well it doesn't make a difference.
    Well, I would especially agree with this. Basically it works in the same way as nationalism, racism, etc. do.

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    Oh look, it's this thread again.

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    2nd paragraph is EII


    The longer one towards the bottom speaks of EII. EII and ESI, or really any 4D ethical type, will know when to engage in conversation and for what purpose. People complain a lot. Sometimes people complain in my presence and it turns into hour long conversations. Sometimes I'll just nod, smile, or walk away and that's the end of it. Doesn't matter if the other individual wants to talk or not, because 4D Fi knows if I should talk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    well I didn't think so until an ESI friend mentioned how it can "make you less observant" and "when you look at children, they have no prejudgments so they are really observant"
    I really like this way of putting it. I think it can give ppl confidence in a false reality they've created.

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    its the downside to all unjustified prejudice, it can blind you from the truth

    justified prejudice of course can help you avoid or prevent danger

    humans are pretty much caught weakly straddling the difference. the benefit of knowledge is it allows you to do it better

    its pandora's box, you can't close it (literally becoming a child), it (socionics, knowledge of any kind in general) will color your judgement, but that's not inherently bad (lol at the racism comment), the trick is to sharpen your understanding so the concept works for you not against you. what we can learn from children is to be less interested in preserving our ego and thus less selective (and therefore limited) about what we perceive. the trick is to perceive it all impartially so that your judgements are working with the best data possible (the information you tend to block is often the information you need the most--precisely because its painful). at some point you can't not judge, so you might as well develop your framework to the utmost and try to get the best information possible

    to walk away or try not to judge at all is 1) impossible, 2) a step back anyway

    if socionics is working against someone they need to invest more effort in understanding it and defeating their own ego. that's how I see it anyway. its easier said than done of course. I know I allow it to work against me from time to time

    all knowledge is like fire, the power carries with it destructive potential, but the challenge has always been to wield it responsibly (not to renounce it--to renounce it is to give up on life--life is the struggle to master yourself--true mastery is not complete abstention but proper control, etc etc)
    Last edited by Bertrand; 06-01-2017 at 07:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    its the downside to all unjustified prejudice, it can blind you from the truth

    justified prejudice of course can help you avoid or prevent danger

    humans are pretty much caught weakly straddling the difference. the benefit of knowledge is it allows you to do it better

    its pandora's box, you can't close it (literally becoming a child), it (socionics, knowledge of any kind in general) will color your judgement, but that's not inherently bad (lol at the racism comment), the trick is to sharpen your understanding so the concept works for you not against you. what we can learn from children is to be less interested in preserving our ego and thus less selective (and therefore limited) about what we perceive. the trick is to perceive it all impartially so that your judgements are working with the best data possible (the information you tend to block is often the information you need the most--precisely because its painful). at some point you can't not judge, so you might as well develop your framework to the utmost and try to get the best information possible

    to walk away or try not to judge at all is 1) impossible, 2) a step back anyway

    if socionics is working against someone they need to invest more effort in understanding it and defeating their own ego. that's how I see it anyway. its easier said than done of course. I know I allow it to work against me from time to time

    all knowledge is like fire, the power carries with it destructive potential, but the challenge has always been to wield it responsibly (not to renounce it--to renounce it is to give up on life--life is the struggle to master yourself--true mastery is not complete abstention but proper control, etc etc)
    I think it would be quite interesting to read your writings

    knowledge is power yes but you need to understand it your own way and as much as you can. but you also need to look at how a theory affects people on large scale. like how people argue about religion and how it has brought both benefit and damage to humanity.
    Last edited by Zero; 06-01-2017 at 09:10 PM.

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    are there others? well this is currently the most recent one so you can put the links to the older ones on here to make a most updated version of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alioth View Post
    Oh look, it's this thread again.

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    @Zero
    I'm really happy someone finally had the balls to post this. I wouldn't have, so thank you. Typology by nature is putting yourself into a box essentially. We can only use it with a grain of salt because it is a guideline to what we usually slip up on. It is a growth tool; not an excuse, not a reason to be intolerant of others. The more I'm on this site the more I get mentally clouded with reasons to hate people just because they operate differently from me, which is not right. If you keep it as an interest, just use it to focus on yourself and how to improve how you act/ how you relate to others. That is literally the only effective thing to do. Otherwise you're just shitting on people for no reason and overthinking everything they do, anxiously trying to see if they're using Se or Ne or Fe or Fi blaaaaaaaaaah fricken blaaaaaaah. Don't let it bleed into your reality and make you judgemental. It's a tool for tolerance not for thinking your way of life is superior because there are other like-minded people that are willing to agree with you. That mentality is so limiting and useless; there is no room for growth if you become self-righteous.
    "Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced" -James Baldwin



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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    I think it would be quite interesting to read your writings

    knowledge is power yes but you need to understand it your own way and as much as you can. but you also need to look at how a theory affects people on large scale. like how people argue about religion and how it has had brought both benefit and damage to humanity.
    I feel like yes, some people can't handle some ideas or knowledge responsibly. a good example would be like terrorists or rogue states and atom bombs. information will absolutely be abused, and its a shame that technology has outpaced man's ability for everyone to handle it (although, is it? medical technology is a good thing and also a consequence of this outpacing). i would say in general the limits on what is freely accessible as a matter of Ti necessity needs to be at the very least that which poses an existential threat. so atom bombs need to be controlled because failure to do so could very likely render the entire point of society moot thus its warranted to take the "moral hit" on controlling information in that regard because existence is necessary condition to society and what's the point of having values in the air if there is no society to benefit from them-- in other words, society has the right of self preservation--"the constitution is not a suicide pact" etc (of course you gotta be careful with this, you get Hamlet in there and suddenly "self preservation" is expanded to include invading Poland, etc)

    so, in principle, knowledge can be limited, but its basically the very last resort, the nuclear option if you will

    in general people can freely choose to remain ignorant, I just think they're limiting their own potential and that's between them and their conscience. I feel like wilfull blindness does result in a lot of stupid policy because in sufficient numbers such a bloc in a democratic society can push their idiocy on others, but I think you combat that with more knowledge not less. ultimately the risk that you will have a generation of morons take the wheel is a risk you just have to assume because the alternative is a kind of top down ideological totalitarianism that entails even greater risks. in that sense "democracy is the worst system except for all the rest." life entails unavoidable risk, man's job is to do their best at confronting it not running away from it, ironically systems like communism constitute a kind of "running away" from it because it tries to eradicate the risk in a way that ensures a bad outcome, but which they prefer because they would choose a bad certainty over having to reckon with the fear appurtenant to a degree of uncertainty and flux

    one is never going to entirely and systemically reduce out the human potential for chaos. when you try to you get literal crimes against humanity. one can only allow for it in a way that is fair to everyone inasmuch as such a thing is possible and that in general doesn't end in self defeating annihilation
    Last edited by Bertrand; 06-01-2017 at 09:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    its the downside to all unjustified prejudice, it can blind you from the truth

    justified prejudice of course can help you avoid or prevent danger

    humans are pretty much caught weakly straddling the difference. the benefit of knowledge is it allows you to do it better

    its pandora's box, you can't close it (literally becoming a child), it (socionics, knowledge of any kind in general) will color your judgement, but that's not inherently bad (lol at the racism comment), the trick is to sharpen your understanding so the concept works for you not against you. what we can learn from children is to be less interested in preserving our ego and thus less selective (and therefore limited) about what we perceive. the trick is to perceive it all impartially so that your judgements are working with the best data possible (the information you tend to block is often the information you need the most--precisely because its painful). at some point you can't not judge, so you might as well develop your framework to the utmost and try to get the best information possible

    to walk away or try not to judge at all is 1) impossible, 2) a step back anyway

    if socionics is working against someone they need to invest more effort in understanding it and defeating their own ego. that's how I see it anyway. its easier said than done of course. I know I allow it to work against me from time to time

    all knowledge is like fire, the power carries with it destructive potential, but the challenge has always been to wield it responsibly (not to renounce it--to renounce it is to give up on life--life is the struggle to master yourself--true mastery is not complete abstention but proper control, etc etc)
    I think the trick is to think about a theory like a hammer: no, not everything is a nail, and anyways, is this even the right hammer for the nail at hand, or do you need a bigger or smaller hammer, or a hammer with a different shape here? A hammer isn't some sacred truth about the world, and applying a hammer to everything would mean everything gets smashed until the hammer finally breaks. And then trying to use the broken hammer on anything just makes you a lunatic who's obsessed with a hammer and in denial that it's broken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vertu View Post

    @Zero
    I'm really happy someone finally had the balls to post this. I wouldn't have, so thank you. Typology by nature is putting yourself into a box essentially. We can only use it with a grain of salt because it is a guideline to what we usually slip up on. It is a growth tool; not an excuse, not a reason to be intolerant of others. The more I'm on this site the more I get mentally clouded with reasons to hate people just because they operate differently from me, which is not right. If you keep it as an interest, just use it to focus on yourself and how to improve how you act/ how you relate to others. That is literally the only effective thing to do. Otherwise you're just shitting on people for no reason and overthinking everything they do, anxiously trying to see if they're using Se or Ne or Fe or Fi blaaaaaaaaaah fricken blaaaaaaah. Don't let it bleed into your reality and make you judgemental. It's a tool for tolerance not for thinking your way of life is superior because there are other like-minded people that are willing to agree with you. That mentality is so limiting and useless; there is no room for growth if you become self-righteous.
    good to hear. It is certainly more severe in the MBTI community though. Btw I wouldn't say socionics typology is essentially putting yourself into a box, since the boxes it explains are really fluid. like gender, male and female, those two are boxes too but each contain half of Earth's population with all sorts of people in them, it has its downsides and upsides too, what I am saying is that we should be "aware". i like the way he talks btw, straight forward

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    I think the trick is to think about a theory like a hammer: no, not everything is a nail

    yeah one must stay flexible in assessing whether their approach is the right one under the circumstances

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    good to hear. It is certainly more severe in the MBTI community though. Btw I wouldn't say socionics typology is essentially putting yourself into a box, since the boxes it explains are really fluid. like gender, male and female, those two are boxes too but each contain half of Earth's population with all sorts of people in them, it has its downsides and upsides too, what I am saying is that we should be "aware". i like the way he talks btw, straight forward
    I feel like socionics is basically a great example of moving forward with "more not less" knowledge, adding nuance to an imperfect system in order to amelioriate some of the rigidity and bad-prejudice. its not perfect, and fundamentally is threatened by the same "problem" but its a good example of progress and how you can do things better or worse

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    @Zero He is an LIE too lol He's awesome.

    Nah I know what you're saying but this forum puts the theory itself into a box. The theory on it's own is very useful.
    MBTI is suuuper limited, yeah.
    "Not everything that is faced can be changed; but nothing can be changed until it is faced" -James Baldwin



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    Quote Originally Posted by vertu View Post
    @Zero He is an LIE too lol He's awesome.

    Nah I know what you're saying but this forum puts the theory itself into a box. The theory on it's own is very useful.
    MBTI is suuuper limited, yeah.
    you're not wrong, but sometimes conflict and "doing things wrong" is how people learn. so when people behave badly here and fight, sometimes there's a purpose and a grander scheme. utopia doesn't exist so im not about to fault this place too hard, better they fight here then on the streets, etc

    sometimes you (and by you I mean me) just gotta say something stupid

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    good to hear. It is certainly more severe in the MBTI community though. Btw I wouldn't say socionics typology is essentially putting yourself into a box, since the boxes it explains are really fluid. like gender, male and female, those two are boxes too but each contain half of Earth's population with all sorts of people in them, it has its downsides and upsides too, what I am saying is that we should be "aware". i like the way he talks btw, straight forward
    Yeah, that's because socionics is more of intellectualism where people actually read Jung etc. like he says people should, although it still has most of the major issues he points out. MBTI's popularity is because it fits into a systemic worldview that's actually extremely disgusting beyond just "MBTI, the system that shall not be named [/voldemort]" once you get to the core of it. Frankly, I think Jung fits into that worldview very well as well but at least the intellectual thinking it takes to actually understand Jung requires you not be a sheeple (and in that case it turns into something like the Bible turning people off from religion most of the time. Just start with Wotan and then see how it's the natural culmination of Jung's general Weltanschauung and how it also very obviously not only leads to but just is Nazism. From there you should look at Thomas Mann to get more nuances out of these Germanic thinkers rather than just "NAZIIIIIS!!!!!" but that's just going into some wild track of looking at Germanic philosophy that most people are unfortunately not interested in because they think it's irrelevant and there's no way it has any influence on their lives in 21st-century America even though it reeeally does).

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    heil Jung

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    Nothing can not be dangerous if applied incorrectly. Purposeful triple negative.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    what's the point of having values in the air if there is no society to benefit from them-- in other words, society has the right of self preservation--


    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    in general people can freely choose to remain ignorant, I just think they're limiting their own potential and that's between them and their conscience. I feel like wilfull blindness does result in a lot of stupid policy because in sufficient numbers such a bloc in a democratic society can push their idiocy on others, but I think you combat that with more knowledge not less.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    one can only allow for it in a way that is fair to everyone inasmuch as such a thing is possible and that in general doesn't end in self defeating annihilation
    but that is what I am trying to do, create awareness by more knowledge, democracy is never a good option in a society with majority of unaware people and the minority will always suffer, the individual is not valued as much as the society as a whole and the traditions and values but do we know what type of people the majority of ones who read about socionics are? and is socionics really about individualism? by fair to everyone, do you mean equally available for them? then yes of course but how are they using it in practice, is it more constructive than destructive? surely, but being aware of potential for destruction is like telling society we have a bomb which has potential for exploding, but can also keep up safe from our enemies

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    you can't force enlightenment on people. if society is made up of mostly cretins, an autocrat won't make a good outcome of that. such an idea is a modern myth, a popular fiction. if society descends into evil it is human tragedy brought on by every individual that contributes to it. what you're talking about is basically alchemy, iron-> gold, which only happens on the individual level, some would say via God. a leader trying to do this to society would literally be playing God, and history has shown us how that ends. that was precisely the soviet project. and I get it, maybe they got the particulars wrong, but my issue is not something that stems from the policies per se but rather the underlying values. the autocrat that believes he can be that man literally aspires to be God in the minds of his subjects (this is the ultimate instance of the sin of pride)

    if you agree that it is in principle possible to force bad people to be good people then we must agree to disagree, because I feel like bad people will find a way to be bad. in fact I feel like bad people have a field day in highly authoritarian societies because they use the law as a shield for their unethical activities. they get away with stuff on the basis of it being technically correct (because they benefit from the presumption that adherence to the law guarantees ethical behavior, meanwhile they act unethically within the bounds of the law and are "safe" from suspicion--the logic being it would be illegal if it were unethical and its technically legal ergo...). the truth is you need people who act in accordance with the spirit of the law not the letter of it. you can't force them to, hence it doesn't matter how many things you legislate if people creatively want to be bad they will meet their goal. laws don't function to make people good, they function to establish order thus the aim of laws should be good policy and no more. the rest is between man and his conscience

    if at the end of the day man collectively decides to destroy himself nothing is going to prevent that. what that is is the condition of man in a nutshell. radical responsibility for their own fate. freedom. thus the only thing to fear becomes fear itself, because it would be fear of this fundamental truth that would lead society into denial and consequent attempts to alter the fundamental reality and that leads to atrocity not utopia
    Last edited by Bertrand; 06-01-2017 at 10:37 PM.

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    Socionics is, by definition, casual determinism. Do yall really understand this?

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    The map is not the territory is the most crucial thing to remember about Socionics. Socionics does not describe our actual personalities, it is merely a semantic map that is used as a tool to describe an aspect of our personalities. Socionics does a good job of describing that aspect of ourselves, which is largely our style of communicating with the world and others around us. However, our personalities are more complex and there are aspects of it that cannot be explained. Socionics cannot be confused as the puzzle to our personality, but it must be understood as a piece to the puzzle.

    There are other pieces to the puzzle to add in to complete our psyche: enneagram, instinctual stackings, tri-type, etc.., but they are pieces of the puzzle too. Looking into other aspects of psychology beyond Socionics and other typology can allow you to fill in most pieces of the puzzle of your personality if not all. However, the most important thing to remember is that even the entire puzzle is just the map, it will never be the territory and the map will never be able to explain everything about yourself completely. To find out more, you must look within instead of outside for the answers IMO.
    Last edited by Raver; 06-02-2017 at 04:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    The map is not the territory is the most crucial thing to remember about Socionics. Socionics does not describe our actual personalities, it is merely a semantic map that is used as a tool to describe an aspect of our personalities. Socionics does a good job of describing that aspect of ourselves, which is largely our style of communicating with the world and others around us. However, our personalities are more complex and there are aspects of it that cannot be explained. Socionics cannot be confused as the puzzle to our personality, but it must be understood as a piece to the puzzle.

    There are other pieces to the puzzle to add in to complete our psyche: enneagram, instinctual stackings, tri-type, etc.., but they are pieces of the puzzle too. Looking into other aspects of psychology beyond Socionics and other typology can allow you to fill in most pieces of the puzzle of your personality if not all. However, the most important thing to remember is that the even the entire puzzle is just the map, it will never be the territory and the map will never be able to explain everything about yourself completely. To find out more, you must look within instead of outside for the answers IMO.
    That's holographic cognition, not casual determinism. Casual determinism already explains everything about you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    heil Jung
    Mein fuhrer

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    Maybe Putin uses it to stay in power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    (lol at the racism comment)
    lol @ you for thinking that you can somehow overcome it.

    The real problem with this whole thing, is not even "It will create stereotypes" "It will create prejudice" or "It will create mental masturbation", but that we will never know whether it's actually true or not, and there is no way to prove it, anyway. That's basically the limitation with cognitive psychology, in general. There is no way to "prove" consciousness or what goes on inside of our brains.

    This whole "finding things about yourself" and having a (largely unproven) theory telling you that that "these so and so are your motivations" reminds me of back in the Freudian days, where psychologists more or less "planted" things into their patients, by encouraging them to "dig deeper" into their psyche and "prove" that they were abused by their parents or something, and therefore, that's why they turned out to be that way. This is an extreme example of course, but it can happen. It basically becomes a rabbit hole where nothing can be proven or disproven. I mean I used to be really interested in this and in cognitive psychology, but these days the interests have waned. I guess I see too much of limitations.

    Perhaps people would like to first decide what exactly it is that they want to do and get out of a theory, instead of mindlessly "getting to know more about yourself" for the sake of it. Do they want to improve relations with others? Do they want to become more successful in life? Do they want to rid of depression? And are these theories actually helping, or not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by vertu View Post
    @Zero
    I'm really happy someone finally had the balls to post this. I wouldn't have, so thank you. Typology by nature is putting yourself into a box essentially. We can only use it with a grain of salt because it is a guideline to what we usually slip up on. It is a growth tool; not an excuse, not a reason to be intolerant of others. The more I'm on this site the more I get mentally clouded with reasons to hate people just because they operate differently from me, which is not right. If you keep it as an interest, just use it to focus on yourself and how to improve how you act/ how you relate to others. That is literally the only effective thing to do. Otherwise you're just shitting on people for no reason and overthinking everything they do, anxiously trying to see if they're using Se or Ne or Fe or Fi blaaaaaaaaaah fricken blaaaaaaah. Don't let it bleed into your reality and make you judgemental. It's a tool for tolerance not for thinking your way of life is superior because there are other like-minded people that are willing to agree with you. That mentality is so limiting and useless; there is no room for growth if you become self-righteous.
    How I would put this about the use of Socionics as a growth tool is, I find some things in Socionics sources/articles helped me add quite a few things for my metacognition, that is, my understanding of how my thinking processes work. That's been absolutely great. I repeat, absolutely great. Including some ideas on how others see me depending on certain things, I had no idea of that before. If that wasn't enough, it also provided some information on the emotional life/side of things, defining these things in a way I didn't see anywhere else whatsoever and which I found very useful, though I've gone way beyond Socionics for that since then. But again, absolutely great contribution from Socionics (though Jung's ideas were necessary along with it for me to use the Socionics contribution well). And, last but not least, it helped me look at different things about people to get a better understanding of what kind of people I'm compatible with for a close relationship, though again, I pay attention to way more things than just Socionics ideas for this. Still it's provided me a certain core of understanding for that and that's incredible too.

    However. The Socionics model (or models, Model A, its extensions and other versions of Model A, like Model G, or whatever) itself I no longer take truly seriously (and never cared about Model G, lol). There is a quite recent change for that for me here. I never thought that it would explain everything about people let alone predict all that much about people on its own, but I find even the basic principles of Model A leave a lot to be desired. Again, I never thought the model was complete, but this goes beyond that. The fundamental issue for me personally that I see there is that these principles are at best descriptors of trends but not actual rules to be upheld in any way, even if integrating things with other models. I knew before anyway that operationalizing the Socionics model in the strict sense was not possible going simply by the available definitions and descriptions but I figured the lack of good tools for investigating people as complex systems didn't help there. Still, inside my own mind, I could find good correlations to observations of my own mental life (and rarely, when doing deep interviews with people, for their minds too). So I kept it in mind that Socionics does say something valid about cognition. And it does but I have to put all that into a different framework going beyond Socionics or it doesn't work for me. That is, doesn't work well enough anymore if I want to improve things further.

    That means, I do still use a version of some Socionics concepts (certainly not all of them) but these get interpreted in a different logical context. At this point, I do still remember how the standard Socionics model works, though I'm going to phase that out too, as I'm now only truly invested in taking the steps beyond that model to better organizing and understanding of valid ideas from it and of course from other psychological models. Type itself is a concept to be reinterpreted with a valid core to it kept still. So if you see me a lot less invested in discussing or arguing about typings etc., not taking it as far as I used to, it's because of that. You might see me do a bit of it still as I'm gradually phasing myself out of it but it's going to be different with intensity and time put into it. Only half of my (logical) heart (lol) is in it now. But I'm not forgetting what this system gave me, which is as I said, a lot. For me it wasn't a truly dangerous tool overall. Even if it was proving overcomplicated and inefficient sometimes, it was effective at least, that is it did give me something valuable.

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    There is an argument to be made that *all* of the personality systems (Socionics, MBTI, Enneagram, etc.) are useless at their core because they: a/ prescribe you what you are instead of encouraging continued discovery and b/ do not *directly* lead to actionable steps ie: are more candy about The Idea Of The Great You than anything else. The argument that they cause you to think yourself to some new actionable steps is flawed because that still encourages mental masturbation and an unnecessarily set sense of identity.
    Reason is a whore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuavaDrunk View Post
    There is an argument to be made that *all* of the personality systems (Socionics, MBTI, Enneagram, etc.) are useless at their core because they: a/ prescribe you what you are instead of encouraging continued discovery and b/ do not *directly* lead to actionable steps ie: are more candy about The Idea Of The Great You than anything else. The argument that they cause you to think yourself to some new actionable steps is flawed because that still encourages mental masturbation and an unnecessarily set sense of identity.
    Er, Socionics shows the negatives well and I liked that actually. And if you improve your metacognition, it does lead to those new actionable steps.

    What do you mean by "unnecessarily set sense of identity"?

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    It's casual determinism.

    It starts with a Why and creates a map of a What.

    Then it starts with that What, asks Why again, and then makes a map of that What.

    So on and so forth over time.

    Eventually you come to enough of a Why that you can potentially (Ne) do (Te) something about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vertu View Post

    @Zero
    I'm really happy someone finally had the balls to post this. I wouldn't have, so thank you. Typology by nature is putting yourself into a box essentially. We can only use it with a grain of salt because it is a guideline to what we usually slip up on. It is a growth tool; not an excuse, not a reason to be intolerant of others. The more I'm on this site the more I get mentally clouded with reasons to hate people just because they operate differently from me, which is not right. If you keep it as an interest, just use it to focus on yourself and how to improve how you act/ how you relate to others. That is literally the only effective thing to do. Otherwise you're just shitting on people for no reason and overthinking everything they do, anxiously trying to see if they're using Se or Ne or Fe or Fi blaaaaaaaaaah fricken blaaaaaaah. Don't let it bleed into your reality and make you judgemental. It's a tool for tolerance not for thinking your way of life is superior because there are other like-minded people that are willing to agree with you. That mentality is so limiting and useless; there is no room for growth if you become self-righteous.
    I watched the video and I think excusemaking is a trait a human have to train away from, not something that come with typology. It is the same with every word that describe a human. Lazy, narcissistic, weird. All can be made into excusemaking if you want to. Its an attitude not knowledge based.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuavaDrunk View Post
    There is an argument to be made that *all* of the personality systems (Socionics, MBTI, Enneagram, etc.) are useless at their core because they: a/ prescribe you what you are instead of encouraging continued discovery and b/ do not *directly* lead to actionable steps ie: are more candy about The Idea Of The Great You than anything else. The argument that they cause you to think yourself to some new actionable steps is flawed because that still encourages mental masturbation and an unnecessarily set sense of identity.
    Yes! We need to all be growing, changing individuals who can't be fit into a theory. However, an Individuality Board would not do much at all except be amateur anti-typology journalism (which might be very useful). Maybe that should be a thing. I'll have to do a good photoshop of Caspar David Friedrich throwing a bunch of acronyms and diagrams from systems over his cliff with Nietzsche Kermit sitting on the left and an emo punk kid standing on the right, and the motto will be The Internet Against Set-Sets, as if the rest wasn't cryptic enough.

    (For the record, a set-set is something from this weird science fiction series where they take newborn/very young children and hook them up to computers so it influences their development in a profoundly disturbing way. The name is because a system of psychology in the future is called Brillism and it basically types people based on major characteristics that are hidden mental processes, but these processes change over time as people grow and develop. They are called sets and they look very similar to enneagram tritypes in particular. One set it actually lists is 9-3-3-11-10-4-3, which is a random naturally-occurring set. A set-set is a set that has been artificially set through exposure to a computer and deprivation to all other stimuli at a formative age so that it will never, ever change through experience or exposure. Felix Faust ends up ranting to people about how that's not a human being because human beings can grow and develop, and what they've basically done is program a computer into the human nervous system by wiring people in, like taking a piece of wood and carving it into the shape of a tree. In the book, this is shocking, but typology somehow manages to get people used to this idea, or even happy about it. But remember that tabula rasa is an Enlightenment idea and socionics is a Soviet one.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Maybe Putin uses it to stay in power.
    "Donald Trump you are a very smart man. "
    Last edited by Leader; 06-02-2017 at 11:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leader View Post
    "Donald Trump you are a very smart man. "
    #Damn

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