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Thread: Does autism invalidate type?

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    Default Does autism invalidate type?

    I am a diagnosed autistic. Can socionics or typology in general apply to those on the spectrum, or can it only apply to neurotypical brains?

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    That's a good question. I think it at least obscures type in some cases, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it makes them untypable.

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    No, you can type through autism, down syndrome, etc
    Last edited by Leader; 05-31-2017 at 05:04 PM.

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    I knew a guy who was diagnosed as autistic whose type I'm pretty sure was ILI. I also know an SLI who may or may not have Asperger's. I found them easy to type.
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    I believe type is independent of autisitic traits and cluster B traits. Type just manifests differently due to having those traits.
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    You'd have to try and separate the two. Itd be better to ask people who know you well about what type they think you are without the autism stuff included. Otherwise you'd basically be finding the type that just sounds the most like autism

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    It applies to everybody, both NNNs (neurotypical normative normals) and AAAs (autistic asperger aliens)

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    we just shove them in with the Alpha NTs, I think.
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    I used to just assume they were in SLI for being over-focused on wanting things the same due to being overwhelmed by sensations and not being able to read people, but then I saw more actual SLI examples and got corrected on that very quickly. Given the extended, detailed rants from people who say "stop saying introversion is a form of autism, I'm introverted and not autistic and this guy is autistic and not introverted in the slightest" I don't think there's any correlation between type and actual neurological disorders. On the other hand, I would say there are definitely types that are more likely to get a reaction of "OMG AUTISTIC!!!!!!" from various people, but I've heard stories about ESEs being complete dweebs so I'm not sure that's accurate either.

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    I don't know about full autism, but I have friends with Asperger's, and I might even say it enhances their type by clearing away the social mask many people have.
    I know two are EII (one EII-Ne and one most likely EII-Fi), one is LII, and one is SLI. Another I haven't known long, but am starting to think he may be a Te type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    I don't know about full autism, but I have friends with Asperger's, and I might even say it enhances their type by clearing away the social mask many people have.
    I know two are EII (one EII-Ne and one most likely EII-Fi), one is LII, and one is SLI. Another I haven't known long, but am starting to think he may be a Te type.
    Isn't that you typing them, though? They'd probably type themselves differently than someone else would, cuz, you know, autism and whatnot.

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    Trying to identify your autistic tendencies through reading your posts but so far I can't. What is it that makes you believe you are autistic? What kind of autism? (aspergers or full autism)
    Learning socionics has been known to induce autism... those who have autism should probably avoid it.

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    Gulenko says that people with diagnosed mental disorders or brain traumas are hardly typable.


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    I've met some who seemed LII's, SLI's and 2 surprisingly SEE's (they had an official diagnosis ADHD + Asperger's - they supposedly often coexist). Other than that, no idea.

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    I know one possible example of someone with Asperger's who is EIE.

    They have clearly Ni-ego oriented interests (politics over time, social atmosphere in their home country + regional differences, historical trends, etc., all talked about in the sense of 'this is this trend, this is that trend' with a sense of progression.) They can go on and on and on about a subject of interest, and you have to *say* it clearly whenever you are bored, because they won't really pick up on your facial expression. It has happened several times for eg that someone has looked tearily upset or somesuch and the Aspie-EIE simply didn't notice.

    Interestingly, they are very socially competent in public, impersonal situations, while feeling very vulnerable and unpracticed at personal friendships. They have spent a lifetime practising reading someone's probable ehm personality and points of (manipulative) leverage based on appearance, impressions etc, and this compensates very strongly for their Asperger's syndrome. They apparently started at 18yo, after realising that they needed to train themselves to smile, and then smile at people. They are now noticeably more competent than most people I've met: they quickly gain a sense of the dynamics of the people they meet, and usually get their way in most things (at work, etc.)

    Coming back to their interests, I find it easy to hold long-winded conversations on these subjects with them, where they will mostly focus on intangibles. I have yet to hear them list statistics, hard explicit facts to make any kind of point. This points me away from from Te-ego. They also value (what I see as) Fe-expressiveness in other people.

    They also show the physical symptoms of sensitive bowels, trouble integrating sensory input in some circumstances, etc.

    Finally, this person is a woman and thus was under far more pressure to learn to get by with social norms than the Aspie guys. This is a recognised phenomena when typing Aspie and autistic children, in that the boys and girls can show strikingly different symptoms and levels of social competence.

    ETA: They don't get jokes much either.
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    Yeah how realistic exactly is this 'autism', it's often an all purpose insult people throw around on the internet (or just str8 guys talking shit to each other over the net) but true autism isn't really something to take lightly. It's pretty sad and crippling, and if you don't have a family member with the illness then you might not know what it's really like. Do you really have autism or are you just a little socially awkward and non alpha male ish lol. Show me an official diagnosis from a Te organization.

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    When I was about 11 a pediatrician I had once thought I had autism because I wouldn't look him in the eye and I avoided him, but really he just intimidated me because he was smelly and foreign.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat1776 View Post
    Trying to identify your autistic tendencies through reading your posts but so far I can't. What is it that makes you believe you are autistic? What kind of autism? (aspergers or full autism)
    Learning socionics has been known to induce autism... those who have autism should probably avoid it.
    I was diagnosed when I was fourteen years old. I was originally diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, but after the DSM-5 was released I was recently re-diagnosed with moderate autism.

    I have these symptoms, or have had them when they applied in the past:

    "Significant difficulty in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as the lack of eye contact, few facial expressions, awkward or clumsy body postures and gestures."

    "Failure to develop friendships with other children of the same age."

    "Failure to express appropriate and corresponding social or emotional reactions, such as when conversing or playing with others. For example, a child who shows little or no reaction, feelings or empathy to another child talking with them."

    "A significant and encompassing preoccupation or obsession with one or two restricted topics, that is abnormal either in intensity, subject or focus (such as baseball statistics or the weather)."

    "Seemingly inflexible adherence to specific routines or rituals that serve little purpose."

    "Repetitive motor mannerisms. For example, hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements."

    "Engages in one-sided, long-winded conversations, without noticing if the listener is still listening or trying to change the subject."

    "Does not empathize with or seems insensitive to others’ feelings and has a hard time “reading” other people or may have difficulty understanding humor."

    "Doesn’t understand the give-and-take of conversation or engage in “small talk.”"

    "Seems egocentric or self-absorbed."

    "May speak in a voice that is monotone, rigid, jerky or unusually fast."

    "May be extremely literal or have difficulty understanding the nuances of language, despite having a good vocabulary."

    "May memorize information and facts easily, especially information related to a topic of interest."

    "May have clumsy, uncoordinated movements, an odd posture or a rigid gait."

    "May be hypersensitive to sensory stimulation such as light, sound, and texture."

    "May “day dream” or “zone out” when overstimulated."

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    For example
    "A significant and encompassing preoccupation or obsession with one or two restricted topics, that is abnormal either in intensity, subject or focus (such as baseball statistics or the weather)."
    In a way this pattern covers very wide area and is highly subjective.

    I think you can say that Temple Grandin is SLI but of course very atypical. Her manifestation (I think) is extreme lack of intuition and amazing sensory memory. Tunes very well into sensory needs of animals.
    I think I'm opposite and some people have wanted to label me under that (following visual sensory data is somewhat difficult for me and made socialising bit hard when lots of activity was involved. It still is.).

    If we but criteria picking up details from envinronment: then I'm in opposite side of spectrum. I'm clueless where Waldo is. Diagnosed autistic people tend to find Waldo very fast. I don't. Actually I read article on calculated probability densities of Waldo's location so now I can find him pretty fast.
    http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/blog/01165489611


    I know one LII who fulfills all the hallmarks from Hans Asperger's original paper but he is not traditionally autistic at all. I'm bit sceptical over the whole spectrum as too inclusive based on external behaviour.
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    Quote Originally Posted by paranoid View Post
    we just shove them in with the Alpha NTs, I think.
    Does not hold water when you base people tend to autistically stare only at ethical dimension.
    Last edited by Heretic 007; 06-01-2017 at 05:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Food View Post
    I was diagnosed when I was fourteen years old. I was originally diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, but after the DSM-5 was released I was recently re-diagnosed with moderate autism.

    I have these symptoms, or have had them when they applied in the past:

    "Significant difficulty in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as the lack of eye contact, few facial expressions, awkward or clumsy body postures and gestures."

    "Failure to develop friendships with other children of the same age."

    "Failure to express appropriate and corresponding social or emotional reactions, such as when conversing or playing with others. For example, a child who shows little or no reaction, feelings or empathy to another child talking with them."

    "A significant and encompassing preoccupation or obsession with one or two restricted topics, that is abnormal either in intensity, subject or focus (such as baseball statistics or the weather)."

    "Seemingly inflexible adherence to specific routines or rituals that serve little purpose."

    "Repetitive motor mannerisms. For example, hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements."

    "Engages in one-sided, long-winded conversations, without noticing if the listener is still listening or trying to change the subject."

    "Does not empathize with or seems insensitive to others’ feelings and has a hard time “reading” other people or may have difficulty understanding humor."

    "Doesn’t understand the give-and-take of conversation or engage in “small talk.”"

    "Seems egocentric or self-absorbed."

    "May speak in a voice that is monotone, rigid, jerky or unusually fast."

    "May be extremely literal or have difficulty understanding the nuances of language, despite having a good vocabulary."

    "May memorize information and facts easily, especially information related to a topic of interest."

    "May have clumsy, uncoordinated movements, an odd posture or a rigid gait."

    "May be hypersensitive to sensory stimulation such as light, sound, and texture."

    "May “day dream” or “zone out” when overstimulated."
    Ok, and I get that Food, I'd just caution you from over identifying as autistic because autism is quickly becoming the most overdiagnosed psychological problem... a large portion of psychologists have absolutely no idea what they're talking about more than half the time... For example, high IQ / too much time in front of a computer can cause pretty much all of those symptoms after long enough - you could easily be diagnosed autistic for basically being a gamer that doesn't leave their house much, or you didn't fit easily into a social niche due to your background. Not saying that's your case though, I don't know you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat1776 View Post
    Ok, and I get that Food, I'd just caution you from over identifying as autistic because autism is quickly becoming the most overdiagnosed psychological problem... a large portion of psychologists have absolutely no idea what they're talking about more than half the time... For example, high IQ / too much time in front of a computer can cause pretty much all of those symptoms after long enough - you could easily be diagnosed autistic for basically being a gamer that doesn't leave their house much. Not saying that's your case though, I don't know you.
    This. Social exposore changes my behaviour drastically. This was true when I was hermiting for a very long time period and as result became very clumsy (socially and physically).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    Isn't that you typing them, though? They'd probably type themselves differently than someone else would, cuz, you know, autism and whatnot.
    Two of them are self-typed and their type is widely accepted by the socionics community. Another read his type description and kept identifying with parts that I had observed in others of that type. Another has casually self-typed himself after looking into socionics a bit, and has also discussed some socionics-related topics with me in a way that endorsed said typing.

    I don't know of any females or confirmed extroverts with Asperger's, so it would be interesting to see how that compares. The most noticeable characteristics of it that I've seen are:
    -they're clueless about what is socially expected (I like this about them because it means they won't have any social expectations for me)
    -either they're afraid of accidentally doing the wrong thing to people (normally people would feel like this when it's an unfamiliar situation and they don't know the protocol, but for them every situation may be like this) or they just don't care and do strange things in public

    Asperger's doesn't make anyone especially hard to type. Drugs would. Schizophrenia probably would. Bipolar Disorder might. Being under the age of 8 would. Autism to a degree that any communication is a struggle would.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Two of them are self-typed and their type is widely accepted by the socionics community. Another read his type description and kept identifying with parts that I had observed in others of that type. Another has casually self-typed himself after looking into socionics a bit, and has also discussed some socionics-related topics with me in a way that endorsed said typing.

    I don't know of any females or confirmed extroverts with Asperger's, so it would be interesting to see how that compares. The most noticeable characteristics of it that I've seen are:
    -they're clueless about what is socially expected (I like this about them because it means they won't have any social expectations for me)
    -either they're afraid of accidentally doing the wrong thing to people (normally people would feel like this when it's an unfamiliar situation and they don't know the protocol, but for them every situation may be like this) or they just don't care and do strange things in public

    Asperger's doesn't make anyone especially hard to type. Drugs would. Schizophrenia probably would. Bipolar Disorder might. Being under the age of 8 would. Autism to a degree that any communication is a struggle would.
    I'm considering it from a communication perspective. To say, "I am this feature," or "I am that feature," means that I am that feature in my perspective compared to other people. If I do the same thing, but say "others say I am this feature," or "others say that I am that feature," means that I am that feature in the perspective of a large sample size compared to others. If the two align, then the features being considered are objectively true for society. Those with autism tend to miss this.

    Are you saying that if you removed all autistic traits, behaviors, and patterns from those individuals that both they and society at large would consider them those types?

    No offense to the socionics community, but as that one guy on here once said, autism is the white elephant in the room. A majority of the people on here and the other sites have some form of autism. Their views aren't the best representation of societal views.

    You could try giving them that philosophical crap test. I already aligned it to Socionics equivalency. Hard for individuals to contaminate it with their desire to be a particular type, too.

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    "the majority of individuals on here have some form of autism"
    If the majority of people on here stopped having access to computers, quit school and were forced to deliver pizzas to survive their abnormalities would mostly clear up in 6 months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat1776 View Post
    "the majority of individuals on here have some form of autism"
    If the majority of people on here stopped having access to computers, quit school and were forced to deliver pizzas to survive their abnormalities would mostly clear up in 6 months.
    If they were in highschool or early college, yeah, that'd probably be true.

    Kids rebel in weird ways of dress and looks and behavior in their teenage years. Virtually all of them get over these things by college and learn to conform in their own respective ways. If they still do that same stuff well into adulthood, there's something legit wrong with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    If they were in highschool or early college, yeah, that'd probably be true.

    Kids rebel in weird ways of dress and looks and behavior in their teenage years. Virtually all of them get over these things by college and learn to conform in their own respective ways. If they still do that same stuff well into adulthood, there's something legit wrong with them.
    That tends to be what happens when people's parents beat them up as children. And, most people on this forum at least occasionally mention their parents beating them up as children (or present-tense, if they're still relatively young). Hmm, I wonder if there's a correlation...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    That tends to be what happens when people's parents beat them up as children. And, most people on this forum at least occasionally mention their parents beating them up as children (or present-tense, if they're still relatively young). Hmm, I wonder if there's a correlation...
    Probably emotionally, since it doesn't end when it ends and isn't as easy to spot or recognize.

    Same things happen with those with latent mental disabilities, though. They just see normal stuff through not normal lenses, and can have the normal effects to not normal things for stuff that is actually normal.

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    Hey, Food, man. Did you need help with something? I've just been talking, but I actually know a lot about this. If you have some legitimate concern because something is going on, I can try and help you with it. May not have the answer, but I'm getting better at finding out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat1776 View Post
    "the majority of individuals on here have some form of autism"
    If the majority of people on here stopped having access to computers, quit school and were forced to deliver pizzas to survive their abnormalities would mostly clear up in 6 months.
    I'd rather do Uber. You can't get screwed on tips and you don't have a boss. You're on the clock when you want to be. But yeah, maybe you are right. Maybe...I am pretty weird in a lot of ways, but maybe everyone is and we all pretend to have this sense of public normalcy. But now I feel like I'm just talking about myself. ah whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangeling View Post
    I'd rather do Uber. You can't get screwed on tips and you don't have a boss. You're on the clock when you want to be. But yeah, maybe you are right. Maybe...I am pretty weird in a lot of ways, but maybe everyone is and we all pretend to have this sense of public normalcy. But now I feel like I'm just talking about myself. ah whatever.
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    Hi Jeremy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangeling View Post
    Hi Jeremy.
    Hi Strangling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Food View Post
    I am a diagnosed autistic. Can socionics or typology in general apply to those on the spectrum
    Yes.
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