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    Default Type Verby

    (I'm still used to "Verby", with the v pronounced as f, from the discord, even if the username-revert button is gone and I'm Wyrd for the time being.)

    I've largely been holding back anything like this because frankly I feel embarrassed to even use this forum even if I like a lot of specific people here and I don't want to put out identifying information about myself (you can often identify people in other contexts just from posting styles, subject matter, etc. I had a teacher once that could identify her students on Internet sites. So I post basically in-character, to try to convey myself but not be myself. I can change my language usage so it's legitimately at least not obviously identifiable as me, which is fun, but the point is to keep the character and content similar enough, so it's hard to balance compared to just character-alts). But now I feel like posting this is really the only way to drive all of my points home, and also people can attempt to type me. I've got actual detailed records of my thoughts and actions with and without regard to various typologies over the years and I can make a case study on typology as a concept rather than just a specific typology or aspect of it.

    Anyways, here's Schildmaid's ancient questionnaire: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...re-(Schildmaid) I always feel like re-reading this would make me cringe, but then I re-read it and don't, although it's not really good either, just meh. I made this based on my records trying not to frame it in terms of socionics (which is difficult once you've been primed to) but I entirely left out the context for the reason I posted, feeling embarrassed to post on a site like this.

    The context: This summer, way before I knew about this site at all, I had basically a crisis of values (and a lot of my posts revolve around this). The reason I had a crisis of values is because before, I was completely nihilistic, but I didn't really act it. How I was fairly certain the world was was summarized by this Bertrand Russell quotation:

    Such, in outline, but even more purposeless, more void of meaning, is the world which Science presents for our belief. Amid such a world, if anywhere, our ideals henceforward must find a home. That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of Man’s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins — all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built.

    Basically, I was sort of sucked up into some egotistical idea of my own mental strength, and anyone who wasn't strong enough to face despair and nihilism was self-deluded and mentally weak, including, and even especially, all the sort of optimistic "humanist" atheist types, since they couldn't see through to the end of their own ideals. But then later I started relating these beliefs to every single detail of my life, including attempting to fall asleep at night and get out of bed when I woke up. I couldn't find a reason to, and I couldn't find a reason not to (and I mentioned this offhand in a random post that I won't dig up right now, "If you don't have values, you can't find a reason to stay in bed, or to get out of bed, or to do anything at all!"). So to do anything at all, I resorted to using probabilities: You don't know for sure, so you should do X in case you could find a reason to fall asleep, get out of bed, etc. This bothered me rather extremely, because I used to just be super decisive and opinionated all the time and that was well-known (From Schildmaid's Questionnaire: "I tend to be quite opinionated about things and that can cause a lot of fights,") and now I felt like I knew absolutely nothing and simply couldn't hold onto a strong opinion like I used to. I even got to the point where I was thinking of the blow-everything-up kind of nihilism, and felt like I had no information to hold an opinion on that either and felt like I had to earnestly wonder whether it was wrong or right, and it also seemed like such an extreme thing that it should be incredibly easy to form an opinion on whether it's wrong or right (and it should be obviously wrong, since I just like life, as do most people, but on the off-chance that life is bad like people misinterpret Schopenhauer as saying, and there's some irresolvable flaw in it that no one realizes that's causing my paralysis, that should also be obvious).

    So I felt utterly powerless, unable to choose even my thoughts on what seemed like the most obvious things, and was largely settling into a state of actual paralysis due to my perception that I knew nothing (hence all the focus on values on the questionnaire, and this peculiar sentence in particular: "I'd rather someone take the wrong side on something that matters than just be indifferent"). So I just ended up isolating myself and reading and thinking like a lunatic for a while, like someone on some sort of vision-quest or something (and this also spawned my Closed-Eye Hallucinations thread, since I had a lot of those during this time period from trying to induce them and generally succeeding) just to see if I could find an excuse to claim I knew anything at all again. I talked myself out of my old beliefs very easily by beating myself up over "your beliefs aren't driven by a desire to know the truth, which no one knows, but by some vain idea of your own mental strength. Now take yourself out of the picture and try again", but although I found all the things I didn't know (basically anything), I couldn't find a single thing I did know. And after a while, I had some actual experiences that showed me some few things I knew that I could use to go back to being normally super decisive and opinionated again and not paralyzed, which started as "how would I know I knew something?" (which was the first thing I knew, although it took some work) and then went on to some very vague actual things I knew gradually. But swinging too far the other way like on my questionnaire and some other posts feels mildly embarrassing and dumb, although I see the cause of my problems as a generalized external problem in the world that just paradoxically manifested a certain way for me despite my constant referring to myself as having been "drawn away" from everything (what the specific cause is I'm keeping to myself since how I discuss it is far more identifying than anything I've said here, which is generic enough, but still a sort of stereotypical heavy-duty existential crisis) and am just trying to lead people out of it really (my best bet is just to write a lot of well-written fiction books since that's how people are won over to new ideas and ideals again and again, although debating people still makes for good practice to scope out how various other people think and what I should do with that. Writing philosophy books or whatever seems utterly useless to me at this point).

    I've had exposure to enneagram years before this actually, but didn't take it seriously and forgot it after a week or two. My mother made everyone do a quiz, IIRC, and she typed me as an 8 because of the description "strive to be in control" (and used this as an excuse not to give me pretty much any control no mater how much I fought for it, since apparently me wanting to decide what I ate or wore or whatever was a neurosis now, although I still had success fighting for these things sometimes despite how young I was, and mostly I was just secretive about them since I knew I had a 95% chance of not being able to get what I want if she knew what I wanted) and I typed myself as a 4 because "no one understands me" and "I'm unique and creative and emotionally intense". I didn't even know what instincts were so I have nothing on that, but I also wrote down a long, long list of "All the reasons I'm an F type in MBTI" and the last thing I got before coming to socionics was INFJ, and I rejected socionics EII primarily on it not being a Decisive or Negativist type even when it came up on my top 4 on the socionics.com quiz. I thought Rational was MBTI J = pragmatic, organized, disciplined, serious, so I was dead-set on Rational types starting out as well, but all the dichotomies did (and largely still do) confuse me to some extent.

    So, type Verby, and also think about how this relates to what I said about typology: this is a lot of my context for my posting here, but is it really me or just some (admittedly rather important) aspect of me that something else can replace in due time? In any case, here's your case study.
    Last edited by Pallas; 05-07-2017 at 10:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    (I'm still used to "Verby", with the v pronounced as f, from the discord, even if the username-revert button is gone and I'm Wyrd for the time being.)

    I've largely been holding back anything like this because frankly I feel embarrassed to even use this forum even if I like a lot of specific people here and I don't want to put out identifying information about myself (you can often identify people in other contexts just from posting styles, subject matter, etc. I had a teacher once that could identify her students on Internet sites. So I post basically in-character, to try to convey myself but not be myself. I can change my language usage so it's legitimately at least not obviously identifiable as me, which is fun, but the point is to keep the character and content similar enough, so it's hard to balance compared to just character-alts). But now I feel like posting this is really the only way to drive all of my points home, and also people can attempt to type me. I've got actual detailed records of my thoughts and actions with and without regard to various typologies over the years and I can make a case study on typology as a concept rather than just a specific typology or aspect of it.
    That alone points to (in red!) - valuing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    Anyways, here's Schildmaid's ancient questionnaire: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...re-(Schildmaid) I always feel like re-reading this would make me cringe, but then I re-read it and don't, although it's not really good either, just meh. I made this based on my records trying not to frame it in terms of socionics (which is difficult once you've been primed to) but I entirely left out the context for the reason I posted, feeling embarrassed to post on a site like this.

    The context: This summer, way before I knew about this site at all, I had basically a crisis of values (and a lot of my posts revolve around this). The reason I had a crisis of values is because before, I was completely nihilistic, but I didn't really act it. How I was fairly certain the world was summarized by this Bertrand Russell quotation:

    Such, in outline, but even more purposeless, more void of meaning, is the world which Science presents for our belief. Amid such a world, if anywhere, our ideals henceforward must find a home. That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of Man’s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins — all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built.
    Pure

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    Basically, I was sort of sucked up into some egotistical idea of my own mental strength, and anyone who wasn't strong enough to face despair and nihilism was self-deluded and mentally weak, including, and even especially, all the sort of optimistic "humanist" atheist types, since they couldn't see through to the end of their own ideals. But then later I started relating these beliefs to every single detail of my life, including attempting to fall asleep at night and get out of bed when I woke up. I couldn't find a reason to, and I couldn't find a reason not to (and I mentioned this offhand in a random post that I won't dig up right now, "If you don't have values, you can't find a reason to stay in bed, or to get out of bed, or to do anything at all!"). So to do anything at all, I resorted to using probabilities: You don't know for sure, so you should do X in case you could find a reason to fall asleep, get out of bed, etc. This bothered me rather extremely, because I used to just be super decisive and opinionated all the time and that was well-known (From Schildmaid's Questionnaire: "I tend to be quite opinionated about things and that can cause a lot of fights,") and now I felt like I knew absolutely nothing and simply couldn't hold onto a strong opinion like I used to. I even got to the point where I was thinking of the blow-everything-up kind of nihilism, and felt like I had no information to hold an opinion on that either and felt like I had to earnestly wonder whether it was wrong or right, and it also seemed like such an extreme thing that it should be incredibly easy to form an opinion on whether it's wrong or right (and it should be obviously wrong, since I just like life, as do most people, but on the off-chance that life is bad like people misinterpret Schopenhauer as saying, and there's some irresolvable flaw in it that no one realizes that's causing my paralysis, that should also be obvious).

    So I felt utterly powerless, unable to choose even my thoughts on what seemed like the most obvious things, and was largely settling into a state of actual paralysis due to my perception that I knew nothing (hence all the focus on values on the questionnaire, and this peculiar sentence in particular: "I'd rather someone take the wrong side on something that matters than just be indifferent"). So I just ended up isolating myself and reading and thinking like a lunatic for a while, like someone on some sort of vision-quest or something (and this also spawned my Closed-Eye Hallucinations thread, since I had a lot of those during this time period from trying to induce them and generally succeeding) just to see if I could find an excuse to claim I knew anything at all again. I talked myself out of my old beliefs very easily by beating myself up over "your beliefs aren't driven by a desire to know the truth, which no one knows, but by some vain idea of your own mental strength. Now take yourself out of the picture and try again", but although I found all the things I didn't know (basically anything), I couldn't find a single thing I did know. And after a while, I had some actual experiences that showed me some few things I knew that I could use to go back to being normally super decisive and opinionated again and not paralyzed, which started as "how would I know I knew something?" (which was the first thing I knew, although it took some work) and then went on to some very vague actual things I knew gradually. But swinging too far the other way like on my questionnaire and some other posts feels mildly embarrassing and dumb, although I see the cause of my problems as a generalized external problem in the world that just paradoxically manifested a certain way for me despite my constant referring to myself as having been "drawn away" from everything (what the specific cause is I'm keeping to myself since how I discuss it is far more identifying than anything I've said here, which is generic enough, but still a sort of stereotypical heavy-duty existential crisis) and am just trying to lead people out of it really (my best bet is just to write a lot of well-written fiction books since that's how people are won over to new ideas and ideals again and again, although debating people still makes for good practice to scope out how various other people think and what I should do with that. Writing philosophy books or whatever seems utterly useless to me at this point).
    Low dimensional and high ethics + intuition.
    The talk touches on probabilities a bit but opinions are very much pronounced here. Overtly so which makes me think demonstrative. seems to succumb to with all the nihilism, hallucinations, vision talk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    I've had exposure to enneagram years before this actually, but didn't take it seriously and forgot it after a week or two. My mother made everyone do a quiz, IIRC, and she typed me as an 8 because of the description "strive to be in control" (and used this as an excuse not to give me pretty much any control no mater how much I fought for it, since apparently me wanting to decide what I ate or wore or whatever was a neurosis now, although I still had success fighting for these things sometimes despite how young I was, and mostly I was just secretive about them since I knew I had a 95% chance of not being able to get what I want if she knew what I wanted) and I typed myself as a 4 because "no one understands me" and "I'm unique and creative and emotionally intense". I didn't even know what instincts were so I have nothing on that, but I also wrote down a long, long list of "All the reasons I'm an F type in MBTI" and the last thing I got before coming to socionics was INFJ, and I rejected socionics EII primarily on it not being a Decisive or Negativist type even when it came up on my top 4 on the socionics.com quiz. I thought Rational was MBTI J = pragmatic, organized, disciplined, serious, so I was dead-set on Rational types starting out as well, but all the dichotomies did (and largely still do) confuse me to some extent.

    So, type Verby, and also think about how this relates to what I said about typology: this is a lot of my context for my posting here, but is it really me or just some (admittedly rather important) aspect of me that something else can replace in due time? In any case, here's your case study.
    Devalued !!
    and

    Surely Beta NF.

    IEI > EIE so far since you access a very long-winded theoretical (my head was spinning after reading this holy fkckckc) but seem to call for help in terms of here. EIE would try to express themselves fully in the first place, wouldn't emphasize polarized personal values and opinions that much, and could not juggle all these concepts logically (again from a subjective standpoint) all while feeling helpless, doubting etc in terms of power. Also, you reject theory and facts so much (except once: "useless"), more than comfort which isn't mentioned but a bit implied indirectly, bed and such. Overall, you are coming from a very personal integrating perspective which indicates introtim.

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    Some kind of Beta NF, searching for meaning in life is related to Ni and putting on a character would be related to Fe. The focus on powerlessness points to weak but valued Se. I can't really say for sure whether you're IEI or EIE, maybe I'll look at it again later.

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    ...This is enneagram subforum. Everyone has missed the point. And in any case people grasp onto old typings to make new ones so I'm not sure it's any use.

    In any case, it's interesting how people are completely missing the message just because they're looking for elements. The "powerlessness" is entirely because I felt like if I didn't understand things, I couldn't be responsible for what I did or even thought, which felt unusual for me since, as I said, I was normally super decisive, and made me go to drastic measures to get out ASAP (although I didn't go into a lot of detail on that). I thought that was obvious, but apparently if people think this is a socionics questionnaire, they can't actually read that in there, just look for buzzwords. I really don't want to get into my philosophy on this topic since I'm pretty much the only person in the world who uses the terms I do and possibly thinks the way I do and I'm going to publish on it, but man, it's reeeally relevant in this context for reasons I can't explain without mentioning it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbZero View Post
    Some kind of Beta NF, searching for meaning in life is related to Ni and putting on a character would be related to Fe. The focus on powerlessness points to weak but valued Se. I can't really say for sure whether you're IEI or EIE, maybe I'll look at it again later.
    Why IEI? I put that I was dead-set on being Rational in socionics since I equated that with MBTI J. IEI seems to be about the least J-ish type ever with -PoLR, double implicit, and introverted perceiving lead. Also, see my other post above this since you seem to have missed the point. It frankly doesn't seem like any of the types, at least the common interpretations of them, can be gotten out of all of my documentation, even this bit here.

    This is in the enneagram subforum anyways...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Also, you reject theory and facts so much (except once: "useless"), more than comfort which isn't mentioned but a bit implied indirectly, bed and such. Overall, you are coming from a very personal integrating perspective which indicates introtim.
    What do you consider that to be?

    Devalued !!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd
    ...I rejected socionics EII primarily on it not being a Decisive or Negativist type even when it came up on my top 4 on the socionics.com quiz. I thought Rational was MBTI J = pragmatic, organized, disciplined, serious, so I was dead-set on Rational types starting out as well...
    Isn't that ? But there is in this post too. Again, this is what I meant above. How is it even possible to line up even such a short (but complex) story like this with a socionics type?

    Positivist vs. Negativist
    Judicious vs. Decisive

    Rational vs. Irrational

    In any case, I find Conan the Barbarian extremely unattractive romantically, which is my primary objection to IEI typings of me in all cases. Also I don't want to walk within a 25-meter radius of Easy & Breezy IEI. Like why would you want to advertise that you're easy and don't have much force behind you? Oh yeah, Conan... "Whatever we want... Phantasmagorical!" No, you don't get what you want. And that elf. Nope. You could at least dare to look me in the eye, but instead you sit there waiting for sweaty Conan to take you nonconsensually.

    (This is the enneagram subforum though.)
    Last edited by Pallas; 05-08-2017 at 03:07 AM.

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    4w5 SO-blind spot and contraflow = already crystal clear. Tritype 468 as we've had, and the 6 is counterphobic because of the 8 fix. There's no other possibility and when an IEE says that, believe it without a doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    What do you consider that to be?

    Isn't that ? But there is in this post too. Again, this is what I meant above. How is it even possible to line up even such a short (but complex) story like this with a socionics type?

    Positivist vs. Negativist
    Judicious vs. Decisive

    Rational vs. Irrational

    In any case, I find Conan the Barbarian extremely unattractive romantically, which is my primary objection to IEI typings of me in all cases. Also I don't want to walk within a 25-meter radius of Easy & Breezy IEI. Like why would you want to advertise that you're easy and don't have much force behind you? Oh yeah, Conan... "Whatever we want... Phantasmagorical!" No, you don't get what you want. And that elf. Nope. You could at least dare to look me in the eye, but instead you sit there waiting for sweaty Conan to take you nonconsensually.

    (This is the enneagram subforum though.)
    Girl! Stop. All these ramblings are
    1. confusing
    2. not goal-oriented i.e. not pragmatic
    3. irrelevant as well as redundant, non-sequitur galore
    4. set to defensiveness rejecting input, if you already know what you want to be, don't ask!
    5. overcomplicated.

    Which is already a case in point for PoLR even if you like it or not, even if this is the enneagram forum or not. If I get the chance to double-check your EIE-ness given the input, I do it here. If you don't want it, go walk around with a false typing. To be fair: If you want us to repost this in your questionnaire thread, say the word.

    You wrote it yourself, the story is complex enough, it affirms your e-type. Ironically, if it's - also according to you - so impossible to draw something out of this short piece, it's not adequate for enneagram typing as well!

    Go after elements first, not dichotomies. You see how it always goes among forum members.

    You are a victim of needless stereotypes. Not your fault.
    Last edited by Chae; 05-08-2017 at 02:38 PM.

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    No nudes ?

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    Your whole text is 5
    @Chae if she was a 4 she would talk about her emotions and how that affects her identity etcetc, but all she talks about is values, thoughts, HEAD HEAD HEAD

    Nihilism is related to unhealthy type 5, not 4. It even says that 5s turn nihilistic on enneagraminstitute:

    Unhealthy Levels
    Level 7: Become reclusive and isolated from reality, eccentric and nihilistic. Highly unstable and fearful of aggressions: they reject and repulse others and all social attachments.
    Level 8: Get obsessed yet frightened by their threatening ideas, becoming horrified, delirious, and prey to gross distortions and phobias.
    Level 9: Seeking oblivion, they may commit suicide or have a psychotic break with reality. Deranged, explosively self-destructive, with schizophrenic overtones. Generally corresponds to the Schizoid Avoidant and Schizotypal personality disorders.
    For 4s is much more about their emotions and you can tell this intuitively.
    Also, 4s have a shame that i dont see in this person. 4s are also vulnerable and it seems like vulnerability is the last thing this person wants which is typical for 5. Ive noticed that 5s often dont want to be open about their type because that becomes a gateway for other people to access them.

    So I felt utterly powerless, unable to choose even my thoughts on what seemed like the most obvious things, and was largely settling into a state of actual paralysis due to my perception that I knew nothing (hence all the focus on values on the questionnaire, and this peculiar sentence in particular: "I'd rather someone take the wrong side on something that matters than just be indifferent"). So I just ended up isolating myself and reading and thinking like a lunatic for a while, like someone on some sort of vision-quest or something
    Here you show you got obsessed with the thought that maybe you dont know anything. And the core fear for 5 is not understanding things. 5s gets so obsessed about trying to understand the world that they go to extremes and overfocus on irrelevant things where they just misunderstand it even more (or something like that, i dont know, im not a 5 but i percieve it as that)


    How do you feel about physical pain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anglas View Post
    No nudes ?
    I found some leaked ones from her cloud actually. You'll lose your mind at those. Holy shiiiiiiiit










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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    Your whole text is 5
    @Chae if she was a 4 she would talk about her emotions and how that affects her identity etcetc, but all she talks about is values, thoughts, HEAD HEAD HEAD

    Nihilism is related to unhealthy type 5, not 4. It even says that 5s turn nihilistic on enneagraminstitute:

    For 4s is much more about their emotions and you can tell this intuitively.
    Also, 4s have a shame that i dont see in this person. 4s are also vulnerable and it seems like vulnerability is the last thing this person wants which is typical for 5. Ive noticed that 5s often dont want to be open about their type because that becomes a gateway for other people to access them.

    Here you show you got obsessed with the thought that maybe you dont know anything. And the core fear for 5 is not understanding things. 5s gets so obsessed about trying to understand the world that they go to extremes and overfocus on irrelevant things where they just misunderstand it even more (or something like that, i dont know, im not a 5 but i percieve it as that)
    Talking emotions and identity is all she did there. You confuse behaviour with motivation here, and of course, there's a quest for understanding and non-openness because of her wing. She doesn't want vulnerability because of her 8 fix. Not every Nietzsche-inspired person is a 5. And IF she is a 5... how can she be EIE?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Talking emotions and identity is all she did there. You confuse behaviour with motivation here, and of course, there's a quest for understanding and non-openness because of her wing. She doesn't want vulnerability because of her 8 fix. Not every Nietzsche-inspired person is a 5.
    Even 4w5s dont worry about not knowing anything and being incompetent in that way because its not their core type. That is a 5 issue. And theres a lot of mental superiority going on with her which is 5 not 4. An example:

    Basically, I was sort of sucked up into some egotistical idea of my own mental strength, and anyone who wasn't strong enough to face despair and nihilism was self-deluded and mentally weak, including, and even especially, all the sort of optimistic "humanist" atheist types, since they couldn't see through to the end of their own ideals.
    And again... nihilism is 5 not 4.


    Im a 4 with an 8 fix and Im still vulnerable and talk about my life and my weaknesses. I dont tell myself "YOU CANT SAY ANYTHING TO ANYONE BECAUSE THEY ARE OUT TO GET YOU". That is not 8 even. Thats more of a head triad paranoia while 8 is (obviously) gut and not a thought process. My 8 fix is like feeling like I have to protect people I see as weak (that I have accepted and are on my side). And I am more like "ill put it all on the table and if you think you can do anything to me, ill prove you wrong". My vulnerability is a sort of strength to me.. hard to explain but as I see it, being vulnerable shows that things can destroy you but you will get up again and that shows the strength. I see people who try to put walls around them as inherently weak because they dont face what theyre scared of.

    I type her 5w4 and you 4w5.. So what do you feel more in her: head or heart? I feel more head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    Even 4w5s dont worry about not knowing anything and being incompetent in that way because its not their core type. That is a 5 issue. And theres a lot of mental superiority going on with her which is 5 not 4. An example:

    And again... nihilism is 5 not 4.

    Im a 4 with an 8 fix and Im still vulnerable and talk about my life and my weaknesses. I dont tell myself "YOU CANT SAY ANYTHING TO ANYONE BECAUSE THEY ARE OUT TO GET YOU". That is not 8 even. Thats more of a head triad paranoia while 8 is (obviously) gut and not a thought process. My 8 fix is like feeling like I have to protect people I see as weak (that I have accepted and are on my side). And I am more like "ill put it all on the table and if you think you can do anything to me, ill prove you wrong". My vulnerability is a sort of strength to me.. hard to explain but as I see it, being vulnerable shows that things can destroy you but you will get up again and that shows the strength. I see people who try to put walls around them as inherently weak because they dont face what theyre scared of.

    I type her 5w4 and you 4w5.. So what do you feel more in her: head or heart? I feel more head.
    4 is connected to elitism. Yes, that sample is 5 but again it also has 8 parts in it since it challenges others to strength, while mentioning 4 for despair, also excluding 7 (optimism) which makes 5's disintegration unlikely! Especially since this was a period of stress in her life. She integrates toward 1 with her values and ideals. Where else does all of that opinion talk come from. Values are not a head thing. It's coming from the gut.

    Great, now enneagram boils down to how you "feel" a person's triad and how you compare yourself to them through things that are "hard to explain". That's a bad method because health levels differ. You might be open with your weakness but another 8-influenced person could go the other way.

    And you skipped the important question at the end.

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    My bad was directed here by someone else and didn't check the subforum. I don't know why you think it can't be related to any of the types but it's kind of a moot point if you only want to find out enneagram

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    4 is connected to elitism. Yes, that sample is 5 but again it also has 8 parts in it since it challenges others to strength, while mentioning 4 for despair, also excluding 7 (optimism) which makes 5's disintegration unlikely! Especially since this was a period of stress in her life. She integrates toward 1 with her values and ideals. Where else does all of that opinion talk come from. Values are not a head thing. It's coming from the gut.

    Great, now enneagram boils down to how you "feel" a person's triad and how you compare yourself to them through things that are "hard to explain". That's a bad method because health levels differ. You might be open with your weakness but another 8-influenced person could go the other way.

    And you skipped the important question at the end.
    I dont know any 4 who takes part of "elitism" or considers themself an elite. Thats a lack of understanding of type 4. Elite is something that is superior and 4s view themselves as inferior because there is something wrong with us. And besides, for her its INTELLECTUAL superiority !!!!!FIVE!!!! You cant ignore how heady she is. Compare to 4s on here.

    A disintegrated 5 doesnt become optimistic.. thats completely illogical. A disintegrated 5 becomes "scattered and hyperactive" (enneagraminstitute)
    A 4 integrating to 1 is becoming more involved with their body and being present (same with 5 going to 8 really) and not developing values. not that what she was looking for was 1ish values at all.

    Intuitive impressions are definitely a big indication of someones type I think. Thats why I asked you if she feels more heady or hearty to you and you still havent answered that.


    You put it there after I had quoted. And she is definitely a thinker imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    I dont know any 4 who takes part of "elitism" or considers themself an elite. Thats a lack of understanding of type 4. Elite is something that is superior and 4s view themselves as inferior because there is something wrong with us. And besides, for her its INTELLECTUAL superiority !!!!!FIVE!!!! You cant ignore how heady she is. Compare to 4s on here.
    Just because you don't know one doesn't mean it's not like that. I never met Lincoln, therefore he doesn't exist? Elitism is compensation for inferiority through identity, 4. The bit you picked shows 5's intellectual superiority well I didn't deny this, but you don't look at the big picture. Again stop the comparison from your subjective perspective, it's not leading anywhere. You already see this is a dead end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    A disintegrated 5 doesnt become optimistic.. thats completely illogical. A disintegrated 5 becomes "scattered and hyperactive" (enneagraminstitute)
    A 4 integrating to 1 is becoming more involved with their body and being present (same with 5 going to 8 really) and not developing values. not that what she was looking for was 1ish values at all.
    Enneagram institute is not a good source to grasp the essence of types. Who is the one with a lacking understanding. A 1 without values is not a 1. Integration goes toward a healthy version of another type, vice versa for disintegration. The 5 under pressure goes into the unhealthy drive of 7 avoiding all pain in desperation, it's optimism but it's fake. The growing 5 goes to the healthy drive of 8 seeking power responsibly. That is not the case here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    Intuitive impressions are definitely a big indication of someones type I think. Thats why I asked you if she feels more heady or hearty to you and you still havent answered that.

    You put it there after I had quoted. And she is definitely a thinker imo.
    I didn't answer because this method is not typing. Now either way - you know my take on it, and I won't change my mind. Don't waste your time here, you already know arguing with me is like trying to punch a wall.

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    Uh.. type 4 is all about elitism. The "aristocrat".

    Anyway, I think that you could be 4-5-8 "the Scholar". I think this description fits you well:

    458 – The Scholar Archetype


    The 845 is the somewhat introverted, intelligent, headstrong, detached, hyper introspective problem solver with strategic thinking and emotional astuteness.


    *Darkest tritype-458, 854, 584 (particularly when 4 or 5 are in charge)


    Also if you are still considering 548 (or 845): she said this is the the most intense type, particularly if sexual. Intuitive, knowledgeable and direct. This is the type that really craves knowing what makes people tick and builds what she calls mental or internal maps that are quite astute as to what makes people do what they do. This tends to be the darkest of the tritypes because of the intensity of the 3 types (particularly if 4 or 5 is in charge). David said there is a propensity toward the grotesque, anatomical or intensely esoteric. This is the "true scholar" and the life mission is to disseminate what information is found. The blind spot is this has 3 types that can be prone to arrogance and the attachment to the internal map of what they've found can make them blind to new information as it comes in. So there will be a tendency to become fixed in their worldview or ideas particularly about people and not take in new information. So while the map is quite extraordinary that they've painted they may miss a whole region and thus not have the full picture. This is also the most cynical and the tendency to be so overly opinionated can make people turn off to their wisdom. She said when 8 is in charge there is a bit more compassion, and with an integrated 5 or 4 in charge you get a gifted spiritual teacher (Russ Hudson for example) An intensely original archetype with a passion to explore and to find the hidden meaning in all things.


    874 and 854 are very similar and can be difficult to distinguish as 8 has access to both 7 and 5. What is helpful is to look at the differences between 7 and 5. The most critical aspect engagement. The 7 engages and brings a positive outlook to the 84_. The 5 is more internal and brings more introversion and reserve. The 874 is more outgoing and spontaneous. it is the difference between facts vs activities.


    ‎854 and 862 share the self-possessed confidence with solution mastery. The 854 is the artsy and intellectual 8 -- with a secret self-consciousness. The 862 is the champion rescuer, protector with a great need to help-- more duty.


    the 468 is a true challenger and truth teller. The 4 may be shy but this Tritype is very intense and reactive--quick to speak their mind. The 485 is the true intellectual that has strong opinions about their feelings and thoughts but less reactivity. Sexual instinct with 4 dominant makes both tritypes more intense. The 468, however, is more dutiful and feisty whereas the 458 is one of the tritypes that lives in their head researching and following their own muse.


    ‎846 vs 845. These two tritypes are very different. Both take charge and seek solutions. The 846 is one of the most confrontational tritypes. The other is the 836. The 6 amplifies the 8 need for loyalty and trust. The 845 is more introverted and introspective. The 854 has 5 as a line of connection as well as in the tritype and makes this 8 more scholarly and focused on depth.


    (4)-5-8 - The Power-Seeking 4 4-(5)-8 - The Reactive 5 4-5-(8) - The Withdrawn 8


    Impenetrable inner world. They are complex individuals, but they are more characterized by the way they tend to push everyone away from them.


    5-8-4: Most Intense Five. Needs creativity. Can be moody and melancholy.


    458 is the most tough-minded and opinionated 4.


    458 - Knowledgeable and direct 4. Most analytical 4. Craves knowing what makes people tick. Stronger Opinions.


    845: Intuitive and knowledgeable 8. Most withdrawn 8, specially if introverted, 9 wing and/or sp.


    The 458 is an active archetype...just more withdrawn...not passive like the librarian... more the expert as they gather knowledge but have a very definite point of view like the 478 and 468.


    five with an eight fix: least intellectual, though perhaps the most mentally intense. unsettled by occasional fits of temper, sudden outbursts. affixed to notions of power; attitude of resigned realist. quietly guarded and insistent, may put others ill at ease.


    eight with a four fix: the moody, loner eight. distinct outsider quality; as if on a highly personal mission. tendency to feel exempt from conventional rules and circumstances.


    The 458 is more openly emotional and expressive. The 548 is more mental and reserved...like the difference between 4 and 5. Both are intuitive thinkers and tend to be introverted. They are intellectuals that take action when they feel strongly about something. Others are always surprised when the 8 appears as this tritype appears quiet.


    A couple of distinctions...The 458 is more emotionally expressive than the 548. The content can be very different. The 458 is more inclined to talk about their feelings about a subject of interest whereas the 548 will be more reserved and speak about tinteresting facts about a subject. The energy of the 458 is focused on the analysis of their feelings first whereas the 548 is focused on the analysis of the information first.


    Social increases the need to have the critical information needed to be interesting to others-- to be wise and in the know. Sp increases the focus on the the basics... the resources one must expend to have the information.What will the cost be? All 6 variations of the 458 will avoid being ignorant and speak up for what they believe in. For example, in contrast, the sp548 will be far more reluctant to speak than the sx845 but both fear being inadequate, incompetent and powerless.


    The 4-5-8 is the most direct and blunt of all the tritypes, with the exception of perhaps 3-5-8


    874 and 854 are very similar and can be difficult to distinguish as 8 has access to both 7 and 5. What is helpful is to look at the differences between 7 and 5. The most critical aspect engagement. The 7 engages and brings a positive outlook to the 84_. The 5 is more internal and brings more introversion and reserve. The 874 is more outgoing and spontaneous. it is the difference between facts vs activities.


    seeing your place as in the shadows is exactly how the 458 describes themselves. The 458, 468 and 478 are all truth tellers in their own way. The 468 is the one that is hyper reactive and still seeks a fair authority. The 458 and 478 are their own authorities.


    the 548 tritype is the 5 most likely to appear 4-ish.


    I think that 458 tritype could be mis-typed as 5, but this is much less likely than a 548 being mis-typed as a 4. It is double reactivity and resultant emotional intensity/volatility of having 4 and 8 together that clashes with the 5, even when 5 is core.


    out of 458/459/451 I'd guess that both 459 and 451 would seem more 5-like (or, more accurately, be more likely to be mis-typed as 5) than 458.


    The 485 is an intensely original archetype with a passion to explore and find the hidden meaning in all things.


    The 845 is more introverted intuition with the attention going inward. It can be darker and is more cynical.


    (EIDB 548 tritype discussion thread: The Enneagram Institute Discussion Board - 5 4 8 Tritype ):


    [Intense, especially with sx first. Independent, dark, cynical. Most eccentric, creative 5 that tends to swing between detachment and emotionality. Most 4ish 5, especially with four wing. Tough-minded, analytical 4 that is staunchly individualistic. Withdrawn, sensitive, creative 8. "Scholar" archetype if I remember correctly. Wants to know what makes people tick.


    Actually, I think this 5 would be more fantasy oriented than information oriented. This would be the dreamy 5.


    What I was criticising was the implication that the unique view a 5-4-8 creates is a monolithic system which doesn't change or adjust due to presumably stasis or narcissism or an inability to take criticism. Dynamism, flux and big intellectual shifts are much more likely. While a 5-4-8 is likely to be an intellectual narcissist, I think any criticism that they are unable to change or adjust their view is the opposite of the case because there is an intense self-criticism as well. Change and flux are constant.


    first, because 5-4-8's are unlikely to think in systems (which you've now agreed with), and second, because of their sensitivity to inconsistency, constant self-criticism and tendency to change positions. I think there is an element of truth in the description though, in that 5-4-8's can be wilfully perverse and too arrogant to accept criticism from others. But they are likely to outwardly repudiate that criticism, and then later modify their views accordingly rather than stubbornly retain their original position.


    My experience of this type is of course my only experience of any kind, so hard to be 'objective'. But here goes. I find it a complex, contradictory and often perplexing type to be. The 3 numbers pull against each other, and there is no social element(3, 6, or 9) to smooth the way. This is exacerbated if you have SO as your last stacking. Although all generalisations are suspect (including this one), it is particularly hard to generalise about this tritype. This tritype seems peculiarly subject to flux, and thus can vary greatly, or have many different real selves. However, dark, eccentric, creative, cynical, sensitive, scholarly are not wide of the mark (although tend to create a caricature if taken too seriously). It's true that we tend to be intensely interested in the psychology of other people, if only because we are at an utter loss to figure out ourselves much of the time. In a way, we are natural scholars but too scholarly, polymathic and restless for universities these days, which reward the careerist specialist. 5-4-8's are subject to rapid oscillations of emotion and thought, equally capable of preternatural strength and weakness of mind at any given moment. One minute an angel, the next a cruel tyrant. A lot of love and a lot of hate. Exquisitely sensitive but all too capable of cruelty and callousness to others. One wants to know, in a totalizing and essential fashion, know poetically but know precisely as well, but never quite gets there.


    We are paradox-mongers, live in metaphor, and are always trying to find new ways to say and see things (and hence are often pretentious) - i.e. iconoclasts - but can be as pedantic, systematic and anally analytical as anyone - i.e. using our 5-ness to beat others at their own games when they have underestimated us as loose, kooky or not with it. 5-4-8's have a predisposition to religion and philosophy, especially pessimistic and melancholic strains, but a commensurate disappointment with the lack of answers that satisfy us and a concomitant melancholy.


    I would caution against such a romanticized view of this tritype as it may defeat the value of knowing one’s type. I would disagree with a lot of the first things you said about this combination – “many real selves” and “subject to flux”. I find a kind of coherency in that here you’ve got two reactive types (4,8) two rejection (5,8) two withdrawn (4,5) and three very independent, very resistant to anything that originates outside itself, and not particularly concerned with objectivity, consistency, or interested in being accessible in any way. The greatest fluctuation I feel is between feeling incredibly hard and strong to being very self-conscious and inept. Strong and Vulnerable are my two modes, brought out when I feel I am unable to make that leap across the fragments of words and space between myself and someone I have an interest in.


    I believe Nietzsche and Gurdjieff were of this tritype, though G may have had 7 instead of 5, but Katherine Fauvre very much agreed with me when I said there was something “Hermetic” about this tri-type. There is a kind of de-construction of present systems and a reconstruction into something that subverts previously-held notions. I like to think of myself as an “ontological terrorist”. Nietzsche is a beautiful illustration of what I see as the gift of this tritype – of staring past the fragility in the conceptions humans, as living and rational beings, hope to cling to and look into something “under”, to poke around in [blocked due to guideline #4 violation], and reveal the beauty within it. Hades operates under a kind of 854 archetypal pattern. There’s the destructive power and energy to produce an impact of 8, along with the “ground-up” construction and innovation of 5 with the creativity and will to rebirth of 4. Of course, that’s only there in the best examples of this tritype, a call the rest of us can only hope to live up to.


    There are of course coherent factors - otherwise there wouldn't be a category. However, I still feel that the concept of change over time is very important to 548. I guess this is what I mean by different selves - the many different selves over one's life (which is also true of everyone). That is, think of Heraclitus's saw - you cannot step into the same river twice. Not just because the river has changed, but because you are - that minute to minute one's self is mutating, adapting, contradicting itself. This does not necessarily have to defeat the concept of a core coherent self, but certainly challenges it.


    I disagree with your point that 548s are not particularly concerned with objectivity, consistency, or interested in being accessible in any way. While these three values are pretty hard to attain, and difficult to define, they are pretty important to me, at least some of the time - and especially in any discrete intellectual task I want to complete.


    5-4-8: more reactive and temperamental, such Fives find it harder to control their emotions than other tritypes. They are basically sensitive, reclusive and ingenious, occasionally indulging in (romantic) day-dreams and fantasies, but once in a while their fierce, visceral side reveals itself explosively and gets to surprise people who don’t know them well. These Fives are usually selfish and whimsical, considering themselves entitled to special treatment which they will sometimes claim aggressively. They are prone to mood swings and rage outbursts. typical subtypes: sexual, self-preserving, 5w4 similar tritypes: 5-8-4, 4-5-8 flavours: innovative, temperamental, egocentric and intense


    5-8-4: original, rebellious, temperamental and highly individualistic and independent, these Fives are can be extremely self-focused and mostly unconcerned with other people’s feelings and wants. They are often inspired and have great vision which they strive to turn into reality – they have a practical side which helps them. Although brilliant and resourceful, others may find it hard to deal with their self-important, narcissistic behavior and their oversensitivity to frustration – their violent reactions can be scary. typical subtypes: sexual, 5w4, 5w6 (counterphobic wing) similar tritypes: 5-4-8, 8-5-4 flavours: resourceful, defiant, visionary and reactive


    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...archetype.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post


    In any case, I find Conan the Barbarian extremely unattractive romantically, which is my primary objection to IEI typings of me in all cases. Also I don't want to walk within a 25-meter radius of Easy & Breezy IEI. Like why would you want to advertise that you're easy and don't have much force behind you? Oh yeah, Conan... "Whatever we want... Phantasmagorical!" No, you don't get what you want. And that elf. Nope. You could at least dare to look me in the eye, but instead you sit there waiting for sweaty Conan to take you nonconsensually.

    (This is the enneagram subforum though.)
    Your observational skills are somewhat appalling since the "Easy & Breezy IEI" is clearly a joke group (look where it is listed). I created it after a forum member posted some hilarious stereotypes about IEI in a thread. Plus there are asexual IEI so don't use Conan or erotic style as an excuse. I don't find Conan particularly appealing either. Jason Momoa is hot in any role he plays. He is far from a "Conan" irl. I don't think you are IEI ftr but not because of anything you say here. It is from stuff we discussed one on one. Your Ne is off the charts.

    Thanks for clearing up that you are "in character" on this forum. It confirms that weird feeling that something is fake about your whole persona. That is why I pulled back from our interactions. I didn't feel it was worth the effort to talk to someone who is not real. I think you had some real moments one on one with me but even then I still felt you were projecting a character and not your true self. It would be kind of silly for anyone to type your online character since any type can be an "actor". It is clear you want to be seen as 458 sp/sx EIE so be one, or create a new character, or maybe just be yourself? If you decide to be yourself then I would perhaps like to chat with that person. I don't see that happening any time soon.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Your observational skills are somewhat appalling since the "Easy & Breezy IEI" is clearly a joke group (look where it is listed). I created it after a forum member posted some hilarious stereotypes about IEI in a thread. Plus there are asexual IEI so don't use Conan or erotic style as an excuse. I don't find Conan particularly appealing either. Jason Momoa is hot in any role he plays. He is far from a "Conan" irl. I don't think you are IEI ftr but not because of anything you say here. It is from stuff we discussed one on one. Your Ne is off the charts.
    All humor has an element of truth in it. Why else do you choose to joke about one thing and not another? I was also clearly making a joke, but meh.

    Yes, I have to be because I don't agree with you and you define in terms of yourself. A certain member here quit ILI since he felt like he didn't know enough about esotericism and didn't know much anything about avant garde music or aUI, and apparently my knowing about all sorts of weird and esoteric things in-depth is... extraverted and irrational? Yeah, right... You posted right on my wall "closed-eye hallucinations are " and I finally admitted I posted that because I have those, and you still feel the need to consider your type everything that you are. Make yourself into a type if you'd like, but I'd throw down the ladder without even climbing it, frankly. You ought to know what that means.

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    Anyways, the "Is Verby 4 or 5?" debates seem pretty valid to me. There are a lot of people who come off as obviously one type or another, but in real life there are all sorts of things that are hard to identify and you have to call in an expert to make sure you're getting one thing and not another (paintings, wines, animals, etc.). Assuming typology is valid, there also ought to be people like that, and Myst commented on basically the same thing. In real life, when it was brought up, I tended to be typed 4 or 8 (and not just in that situation, although that was the most notable) but those aren't even the only things you can identify. Pretty much no one identifies as or is identified as head triad since 6 is really ambiguous from the outside, 5 is stereotyped as outright autistic-like nerds, and 7 is stereotyped as being completely childish and hating anything negative at all, which actual people of the last two don't tend to identify with in themselves at least a good bulk of the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    All humor has an element of truth in it. Why else do you choose to joke about one thing and not another? I was also clearly making a joke, but meh.

    Yes, I have to be because I don't agree with you and you define in terms of yourself. A certain member here quit ILI since he felt like he didn't know enough about esotericism and didn't know much anything about avant garde music or aUI, and apparently my knowing about all sorts of weird and esoteric things in-depth is... extraverted and irrational? Yeah, right... You posted right on my wall "closed-eye hallucinations are " and I finally admitted I posted that because I have those, and you still feel the need to consider your type everything that you are. Make yourself into a type if you'd like, but I'd throw down the ladder without even climbing it, frankly. You ought to know what that means.
    You also define in terms of yourself since you came on this forum and retyped all of beta just so you could be EIE. Don't you remember your chatbox rants? I think you typed me 3 different types in the beginning, one being Fe polr. You also made a thread typing Maritsa SEE which was vindictive and telling. You basically agreed with the self typings of all the people you clicked with right away. I am willing to bet most people here do since they can only imagine what is going on in other people's heads. There is nothing scientific about typing people. It is a mess of intuitive impressions vs people taking each description so literal that it all becomes laughable . Then everything in between. You are a character though. You may have strong Ni but that is not what you display here. It seems what you want right now is to be typed an 8 or a 4 despite making posts in the beginning that pointed to you wanting to be a 5 and how EIE can be 5s. @Jeremy types you a 5 then all of a sudden you don't want to be a core 5. None of this is real. You are not real.

    Edit: Despite all this I kind of like you which sucks because you are fake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    You also define in terms of yourself since you came on this forum and retyped all of beta just so you could be EIE. Don't you remember your chatbox rants? I think you typed me 3 different types in the beginning, one being Fe polr. You also made a thread typing Maritsa SEE which was vindictive and telling. You basically agreed with the self typings of all the people you clicked with right away. I am willing to bet most people here do since they can only imagine what is going on in other people's heads. There is nothing scientific about typing people. It is a mess of intuitive impressions vs people taking each description so literal that it all becomes laughable . Then everything in between. You are a character though. You may have strong Ni but that is not what you display here. It seems what you want right now is to be typed an 8 or a 4 despite making posts in the beginning that pointed to you wanting to be a 5 and how EIE can be 5s. @Jeremy types you a 5 then all of a sudden you don't want to be a core 5. None of this is real. You are not real.

    Edit: Despite all this I kind of like you which sucks because you are fake.
    I never said I didn't want to be typed as a 5 or typed as a 4 or an 8. I want to see people's reasoning and give them something to think about. I also didn't retype around myself. I just played with retyping everyone (including myself several times, and that includes in socionics as well as enneagram) around my genuinely changing conception of types. Of course I referenced myself as well as other people in that, since all the types are based on prototypes, but that wasn't intended to just be petty "I'm cool and you're not". I see the same thing in Cassandra's typing, with typing based on prototypes, which is how I know she isn't intending to be petty even if it comes off that way.

    And anyways, as I said, it isn't completely fake. It's like running light through a lens. If you can see the lens and the light, you can figure out exactly what's on the other side, since it's one-to-one input-output, but if you don't look for the lens, you assume the light is just coming out as-is. I do that to weed out individual people here from the general, since if you care enough and can figure out what's on the other side at all, I'd like you, as a rule. And the first post on this thread is rather direct and authentic, because I've changed my strategy. What I was deciding to do wasn't working for me and was only feeding my embarrassment. As a note, I pretty much cut that as soon as I switched into Faust redeemed as a theme, but I was still being rather cryptic. I've posted enough that my changing whatever I'm doing would change the character of the forum the same way Maritsa leaving or Jeremy trying to fit people into molds to control them would change the character of the forum, and this will be fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    I never said I didn't want to be typed as a 5 or typed as a 4 or an 8. I want to see people's reasoning and give them something to think about. I also didn't retype around myself. I just played with retyping everyone (including myself several times, and that includes in socionics as well as enneagram) around my genuinely changing conception of types. Of course I referenced myself as well as other people in that, since all the types are based on prototypes, but that wasn't intended to just be petty "I'm cool and you're not". I see the same thing in Cassandra's typing, with typing based on prototypes, which is how I know she isn't intending to be petty even if it comes off that way.

    And anyways, as I said, it isn't completely fake. It's like running light through a lens. If you can see the lens and the light, you can figure out exactly what's on the other side, since it's one-to-one input-output, but if you don't look for the lens, you assume the light is just coming out as-is. I do that to weed out individual people here from the general, since if you care enough and can figure out what's on the other side at all, I'd like you, as a rule. And the first post on this thread is rather direct and authentic, because I've changed my strategy. What I was deciding to do wasn't working for me and was only feeding my embarrassment. As a note, I pretty much cut that as soon as I switched into Faust redeemed as a theme, but I was still being rather cryptic. I've posted enough that my changing whatever I'm doing would change the character of the forum the same way Maritsa leaving or Jeremy trying to fit people into molds to control them would change the character of the forum, and this will be fun.

    Ok, have fun with it. This experience with you has taught me to listen to my intuition more. When I raised doubts about you being "real" (which I won't go into on the off chance you weren't making things up) others would defend you. I have no interest in typing you in your current incarnation on the forum. I hope you get everything you want out of the experience. I really do. As of now, I don't think we have anything else left to say to each other. Good luck.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Ok, have fun with it. This experience with you has taught me to listen to my intuition more. When I raised doubts about you being "real" (which I won't go into on the off chance you weren't making things up) others would defend you. I have no interest in typing you in your current incarnation on the forum. I hope you get everything you want out of the experience. I really do. As of now, I don't think we have anything else left to say to each other. Good luck.
    As I said, it's not that clear-cut. Everyone's problem here (who has a major problem) is that they don't understand Kafka. And I'm not demanding that the whole forum reads a CliffNotes synopsis of the Metamorphosis. I mean this (this next quote isn't Kafka yet, but it was brought up in this context once, so hold on):

    Yet to hide a passion totally (or even to hide, more simply, its excess) is inconceivable: not because the human subject is too weak, but because passion is in essence made to be seen: the hiding must be seen: I want you to know that I am hiding something from you, that is the active paradox I must resolve: at one and the same time it must be known and not known: I want you to know that I don’t want to show my feelings: that is the message I address to the other. Larvatus prodeo: I advance pointing to my mask: I set a mask upon my passion, but with a discreet (and wily) finger I designate this mask. Every passion, ultimately, has its spectator: at the moment of his death, Captain Paz cannot keep from writing to the woman he has loved in silence: no amorous oblation without a final theater: the sign is always victorious.

    — Roland Barthes

    Anyone who knows the slightest thing about Kafka know that he said "Max Brod, burn my books when I die" and Max Brod said "OK". He also handed some off to his girlfriend Dora Diamant to burn. Diamant burnt hers, but Brod went off and published his. If he wanted all of his books burned, why would he have split it like that? He knew both of the people well too, so it's not like he was trying to make sure of any uncertainties. He didn't want all of them burned, that's why. He handed the ones he wanted published to Brod, and probably some awful manuscripts and embarrassing personal things to Diamant. It's the same situation with Alioth being typed and his now-infamous "entering the arena" quote. -doms don't talk like that, even if entering the arena as a theme is . The tension there becomes a new thing itself. You can't convey the same thing plainly. But then there's also "I don't like this forum as a whole and I want to keep my distance while still being there". Anyone who can keep up this Kafka and Barthes thing is pretty much who I was trying to communicate to personally, as I said.

    ...And also as I just said, this is literally causing people real-life problems here. Like look at how Jeremy thinks. Or thehotelambush (the one who typed Alioth over the "entering the arena" quote). Or you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    You also define in terms of yourself since you came on this forum and retyped all of beta just so you could be EIE. Don't you remember your chatbox rants? I think you typed me 3 different types in the beginning, one being Fe polr. You also made a thread typing Maritsa SEE which was vindictive and telling. You basically agreed with the self typings of all the people you clicked with right away. I am willing to bet most people here do since they can only imagine what is going on in other people's heads. There is nothing scientific about typing people. It is a mess of intuitive impressions vs people taking each description so literal that it all becomes laughable . Then everything in between. You are a character though. You may have strong Ni but that is not what you display here. It seems what you want right now is to be typed an 8 or a 4 despite making posts in the beginning that pointed to you wanting to be a 5 and how EIE can be 5s. @Jeremy types you a 5 then all of a sudden you don't want to be a core 5. None of this is real. You are not real.
    And back on this: this is a result of typing-by-prototypes. Which is a bad idea, since no one can type the prototypes themselves, and brings to mind certain arguments for God. In the beginning I typed as a 4, then went through other things (I pretty much just quit E4 because of Jeremy's 24/7 bragging about how much she sucks and giving TMI, and similar behavior from other 4s. "4 is a bad type to be" — L25). You don't notice that I changed my type like every couple of weeks. If you're typing by prototypes, why not just be direct and say "I relate to X?" (which was the point of the Goethe thread. Subteigh picked that up when that was actually a meme in real life for complicated reasons so I went for that first). If you're not typing by prototypes, what are you typing by?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    I see people who try to put walls around them as inherently weak because they dont face what theyre scared of.
    Metaphorical walls exist for the same reason as literal walls: we don't want to waste all of our time running from storms and tigers and nonsense like that when we have more important things to do. If you think you have to fight every single thing that comes your way, you're just insecure in yourself.


    How do you feel about physical pain?
    If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrd View Post
    Anyways, the "Is Verby 4 or 5?" debates seem pretty valid to me. There are a lot of people who come off as obviously one type or another, but in real life there are all sorts of things that are hard to identify and you have to call in an expert to make sure you're getting one thing and not another (paintings, wines, animals, etc.). Assuming typology is valid, there also ought to be people like that, and Myst commented on basically the same thing. In real life, when it was brought up, I tended to be typed 4 or 8 (and not just in that situation, although that was the most notable) but those aren't even the only things you can identify. Pretty much no one identifies as or is identified as head triad since 6 is really ambiguous from the outside, 5 is stereotyped as outright autistic-like nerds, and 7 is stereotyped as being completely childish and hating anything negative at all, which actual people of the last two don't tend to identify with in themselves at least a good bulk of the time.
    You are OBVIOUSLY a 5 and not a 4 for me. The people who type you 4 havent been around many 5s or dont know how to identify them. No 4 is as heady as you. Alot of 5s arent even as heady as you. Maybe thats because you have autism or something else. But you being a head type is painfully obvious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    You are OBVIOUSLY a 5 and not a 4 for me. The people who type you 4 havent been around many 5s or dont know how to identify them. No 4 is as heady as you. Alot of 5s arent even as heady as you. Maybe thats because you have autism or something else. But you being a head type is painfully obvious.
    It's because you don't speak English very fluently and don't have ready emotional associations with longer words, so you just process them as technical gibberish. I mean you couldn't understand these two quotes:

    All that is transitory is but a symbol

    Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
    Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    The syntax in those is not typical [/poetry], but not very hard either. I don't object to the 5 typing in principle, but how you're coming upon it makes no sense. If E4 is "I'm so awesome, I can't do anything! Also, I'm on my period today. It's really heavy and slightly brownish. Now I just wanna stab out my old boyfriend's new girlfriend's left eye with a 4 1/2-inch serrated kitchen knife" I'd much rather not be a 4.

    But really the issue is, if people can't type the seeming only diarist on 16types, that doesn't bode well for typology in principle.

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    Anyways, going to throw the fantastic story of the eldritch color theory here since it'll be relevant and I really, really want to post it on this forum. The story is stupid but it led me to realize how a lot of things work in a way that I haven't seen before from anyone ever.

    How Verby Described the Indescribable and Conquered the Otherworld

    ...Or not really. Anyways, once, I was pulling an all-nighter to try to write some essays for classes, and I'd also had very little to eat the entire day, and not really enough sleep for the amount of strain pulling an all-nighter puts on your body anyways (although not little sleep per se). At a bit after 7:00, I was finished with everything but looking over the essay for my opera class, and was wondering if I should take a nap or something to avoid accidental microsleeps during class the next day (no amount of coffee in the world can stop these if you're underslept enough). I remembered that meditation has been shown to equal the same amount of time sleeping for at least a couple of hours, and I didn't want to take a nap alone in a computer lab and also risk sleeping past the alarm I set on my phone since I'd rather be tired than late to class, so I decided to meditate after a period of fasting and sleep deprivation, which does not sound like it'll lead to anything weird at all.

    So first, I started seeing patterns, which is normal for when I'm tired and tends to help me go to sleep, then some flashing images, which is also very normal after a bit more time, but after that it just got really weird and switched to some weird landscape with hills and a few giant trees here and there, and just stayed there rather than flashing, like I could look around. The sky seemed closed and hooded, and everything had some sort of weird visceral vibe, like looking at someone's insides during surgery, except it didn't seem exposed. At this point I was like "What? This is not what I was going for at all. Maybe I should open my eyes and leave. This is really uncanny and I'm not sure it's good to look at, really. This doesn't look like anything that'd exist normally..." This brought the word "eldritch" to mind, with the confluence of "uncanny" and "not normally existing" and thinking about looking away, and obviously all the Cthulhu and knockoff type things were people lose their mind just from seeing things as well as the etymology "pertaining to the Otherworld", sometimes given as derived from "elf" + "Reich" and then you have Erlkönig trying to lure people away. So I was wondering if looking at that would make me lose my mind then was like "if it would, you've seen it already, too late".

    So then I was trying to figure out what about it was uncanny and otherworldly and was like "well, for one, a bunch of these colors don't normally exist. Stupid colors. Everyone always obsesses over colors and about how 'indescribable' they are, whether they're having an NDE or an OBE or getting abducted by a UFO or taking some DMT or LSD or anything else with a 3-letter acronym. And then they come out like they're in a waking coma, like they're just ambling over the face of the Earth waiting to die or for a UFO to pick them up again or something so they can see some stupid 'indescribable' colors again, and they have these weird unnatural smiles and moving inertia like they've been completely numbed-out on a soul level. Stupid elves and their stupid Reich! Du liebes Kind, komm geh mit mir..." with the last part going into Schubert's song. I decided that I've already seen it, but even if everyone else in the history of the world seems to have been numbed-out and have their soul taken by seeing stupid eldritch colors, I would at least try my hardest not to, and if I was weak enough that I couldn't, then I deserved what I got and had nothing to lose anyways. So I started describing the colors to myself: "well, this looks like a combination of brown and purple. But not just that. It looks like it recedes into infinite depths somehow. Infinity shows up most naturally on continua... Is this a juxtaposition of gradients?" So I started describing a bunch of the colors to myself, and then went on to try to mentally manipulate the colors based on the descriptions. When I could, I was extremely pleased, and then went straight to making notation to describe them so I could show how they worked in technical terms. I was like "how do people end up waiting to die just to see these colors again? They're a novelty to me. I can describe your 'indescribable' easily. Have I conquered the human condition somehow, since no one seems to be immune? At the least I've conquered the Otherworld and I'm not going to be some numbed-out automaton waiting to die to see weird colors" and was just getting extremely cocky about that. After a while I felt like I must've spent an hour in that state and worked out everything I could, but I opened my eyes and looked at the clock and it was only one minute. My alarm wasn't even close to going off. This was only mildly surprising though, since I already knew how time worked, I just hadn't experienced that personally.

    I also tried reconstructing everything once I was out and was very happy to be able to easily. I made some mental exercises I planned on telling everyone so they could construct basic ones for themselves, and was working on figuring out how to get other people to be able to mentally construct the "infinite" ones from there. I went off designing a bunch of experiments involving giving people brain scans to prove I was right. Then I was like "So, how will you convince anyone to do those?" It was easy enough, but I realized pretty much no one would see any value in it at all, definitely not the narrative with describing the indescribable and conquering the Otherworld and transcending the human condition. All that'd happen is that some skeptical neuroscientist would get some people to do an experiment, scan their brains, see that what I described is true (there are enough similar descriptions that anything else is inconceivable) and say "we've proven supernatural experiences are an illusion". But that's not how I interpreted it at all, the same way Penfield thought he confirmed free will but everyone cites him as having proven it wrong. I just thought "I don't like these colors, and the whole reason anyone puts any value on 'indescribable' colors is that they don't have theory to describe them, so I'll make a theory for all of the colors so they can all be equal and I can pick the ones I want again". That wasn't even necessary but it showed the problem, which is that people let these systems dictate what they should experience rather than trusting their own experience. And the fact that I put my own personal experience above everything even when presented with something like that is what's interesting. The stupid eldritch color theory is just a shameful waste without context, and no one will get the context. If they worked to get it, all the 60 Minutes supernatural specials would end, and the entire NDE UFO OBE industry would end. People reading Deepak Chopra and Eben Alexander are not going to switch to reading Dante and Goethe overnight if at all for the capitalist overlords' profit, even if they occasionally want to misinterpret a quote for their own ends, and having things on TV that are hard to understand when people want light entertainment is just an embarrassment. So going from feeling like I became some sort of superhuman who is the sole person in history not to be destroyed by looking at colors to being embarrassed of making some stupid color theory took all of a few minutes, but figuring out the real point of all of that is what's really valuable.


    Anyways, for anyone curious, I've seen the basic construction for these in real life in a book, but can't find a good image online so I'll have to post a weird exercise. Imagine you're in a dim room with two projectors and an unlit, translucent (not transparent) white screen. One is in front and one is behind. You need to stand in front of the screen and really look at it, since this takes good visualization skills to do (I was hoping to get out of this by finding a picture). The one behind will make the screen pure yellow and faces directly at it. Now turn it on. The one in front is blue, but is off to the side facing at a wall. Turn it on, then slide it over to the screen. This should overlay blue and yellow without making a new color cognitively, and this is really entirely about how people process this, not about anything physical. You keep stacking these, especially with subtly-similar ones that people don't even think to discriminate (like a yellow and a slightly different yellow), and that can get entirely overwhelming like all the tones in micropolyphony (Ligeti's Lux Aeterna and that kind of thing, Kubrick film music). But it's really a pointless novelty and stupidly technical. I would redact this part of the post except that the rest of the post is completely unbelievable without it, so it's a lose-lose.

  30. #30
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    Anyways, going to throw the fantastic story of the eldritch color theory here since it'll be relevant and I really, really want to post it on this forum. This is also probably the hardest thing to read I've ever posted here but there's really no way around that at all, sorry. There's philosophy and science in here so all the overly-technical words pour out after that and it's gross.

    How Verby Described the Indescribable and Conquered the Otherworld

    ...Or not really. Anyways, once, I was pulling an all-nighter to try to write some essays for classes, and I'd also had very little to eat the entire day, and not really enough sleep for the amount of strain pulling an all-nighter puts on your body anyways (although not little sleep per se). At a bit after 7:00, I was finished with everything but looking over the essay for my opera class, and was wondering if I should take a nap or something to avoid accidental microsleeps during class the next day (no amount of coffee in the world can stop these if you're underslept enough). I remembered that meditation has been shown to equal the same amount of time sleeping for at least a couple of hours, and I didn't want to take a nap alone in a computer lab and also risk sleeping past the alarm I set on my phone since I'd rather be tired than late to class, so I decided to meditate after a period of fasting and sleep deprivation, which does totally not sound like it'll lead to anything weird at all.

    So first, I started seeing patterns, which is normal for when I'm tired and tends to help me go to sleep, then some flashing images, which is also very normal after a bit more time, but after that it just got really weird and switched to some weird landscape with hills and a few giant trees here and there, and just stayed there rather than flashing, like I could look around. The sky seemed closed and hooded, and everything had some sort of weird visceral vibe, like looking at someone's insides during surgery, except it didn't seem exposed, like some sort of viscera of reality. At this point I was like "What? This is not what I was going for at all. Maybe I should open my eyes and leave. This is really uncanny and I'm not sure it's good to look at, really. This doesn't look like anything that'd exist normally..." This brought the word "eldritch" to mind, with the confluence of "uncanny" and "not normally existing" and thinking about looking away, and obviously all the Cthulhu and knockoff type things were people lose their mind just from seeing things as well as the etymology "pertaining to the Otherworld", sometimes given as derived from "elf" + "Reich" and then you have Erlkönig trying to lure people away. So I was wondering if looking at that would make me lose my mind then was like "if it would, you've seen it already, too late. You can keep looking".

    So then I was trying to figure out what about it was uncanny and otherworldly and was like "well, for one, a bunch of these colors don't normally exist. Stupid colors. Everyone always obsesses over colors and about how 'indescribable' they are, whether they're having an NDE or an OBE or getting abducted by a UFO or taking some DMT or LSD or anything else with a 3-letter acronym. And then they come out like they're in a waking coma, like they're just ambling over the face of the Earth waiting to die or for a UFO to pick them up again or something so they can see some stupid 'indescribable' colors again, and they have these weird unnatural smiles and moving inertia like they've been completely numbed-out on a soul level. Stupid elves and their stupid Reich! Du liebes Kind, komm geh mit mir..." with the last part going into Schubert's song. I decided that I've already seen it, but even if everyone else in the history of the world seems to have been numbed-out and have their soul taken by seeing stupid eldritch colors, I would at least try my hardest not to, and if I was weak enough that I couldn't, then I deserved what I got and had nothing to lose anyways. So I started describing the colors to myself: "well, this looks like a combination of brown and purple. But not just that. It looks like it recedes into infinite depths somehow. Infinity shows up most naturally on continua... Is this a juxtaposition of gradients?" So I started describing a bunch of the colors to myself, and then went on to try to mentally manipulate the colors based on the descriptions. When I could, I was extremely pleased, and then went straight to making notation to describe them so I could show how they worked in technical terms. I was like "how do people end up waiting to die just to see these colors again? They're a novelty to me. I can describe your 'indescribable' easily. Have I conquered the human condition somehow, since no one seems to be immune? At the least I've conquered the Otherworld and I'm not going to be some numbed-out automaton waiting to die to see weird colors" and was just getting extremely cocky about that. After a while I felt like I must've spent an hour in that state and worked out everything I could, but I opened my eyes and looked at the clock and it was only one minute. My alarm wasn't even close to going off. This was only mildly surprising though, since I already knew how time worked, I just hadn't experienced that personally.

    I also tried reconstructing everything once I was out and was very happy to be able to easily. I made some mental exercises I planned on telling everyone so they could construct basic ones for themselves, and was working on figuring out how to get other people to be able to mentally construct the "infinite" ones from there. I went off designing a bunch of experiments involving giving people brain scans to prove I was right. Then I was like "So, how will you convince anyone to do those?" It was easy enough, but I realized pretty much no one would see any value in it at all, definitely not the narrative with describing the indescribable and conquering the Otherworld and transcending the human condition. All that'd happen is that some skeptical neuroscientist would get some people to do an experiment, scan their brains, see that what I described is true (there are enough similar descriptions that anything else is inconceivable) and say "we've proven supernatural experiences are an illusion". But that's not how I interpreted it at all, the same way Penfield thought he confirmed free will but everyone cites him as having proven it wrong. I just thought "I don't like these colors, and the whole reason anyone puts any value on 'indescribable' colors is that they don't have theory to describe them, so I'll make a theory for all of the colors so they can all be equal and I can pick the ones I want again". That wasn't even necessary but it showed the problem, which is that people let these systems dictate what they should experience rather than trusting their own experience. And the fact that I put my own personal experience above everything even when presented with something like that is what's interesting. I mean don't people tend to have a pretty hard time describing the experience of seeing a van Gogh? But that's not considered supernatural or weird at all normally. People just say "van Gogh pictures look way different in real life and it's interesting". The stupid eldritch color theory is just a shameful waste without context, and no one will get the context. If they worked to get it, all the 60 Minutes supernatural specials would end, and the entire NDE UFO OBE industry would end. People reading Deepak Chopra and Eben Alexander are not going to switch to reading Dante and Goethe overnight if at all for the capitalist overlords' profit, even if they occasionally want to misinterpret a quote for their own ends, and having things on TV that are hard to understand when people want light entertainment is just an embarrassment. So going from feeling like I became some sort of superhuman who is the sole person in history not to be destroyed by looking at colors to being embarrassed of making some stupid color theory took all of a few minutes, but figuring out the real point of all of that is what's really valuable.


    Anyways, for anyone curious, I've seen the basic construction for these in real life in a book, but can't find a good image online so I'll have to post a weird exercise. Imagine you're in a dim room with two projectors and an unlit, translucent (not transparent) white screen. One is in front and one is behind. You need to stand in front of the screen and really look at it, since this takes good visualization skills to do (I was hoping to get out of this by finding a picture). The one behind will make the screen pure yellow and faces directly at it. Now turn it on. The one in front is blue, but is off to the side facing at a wall. Turn it on, then slide it over to the screen. This should overlay blue and yellow without making a new color cognitively, and this is really entirely about how people process this, not about anything physical. You keep stacking these, especially with subtly-similar ones that people don't even think to discriminate (like a yellow and a slightly different yellow), and that can get entirely overwhelming like all the tones in micropolyphony (Ligeti's Lux Aeterna and that kind of thing, Kubrick film music). But it's really a pointless novelty and stupidly technical. I would redact this part of the post except that the rest of the post is completely unbelievable without it, so it's a lose-lose.

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