Type 9: Down the Rabbit Hole

[ApeironStella]

Checked this forum to see if there was a mention of this post but 10 pages into it, there wasn't any so I'm linking it here since it helped me a lot to decide on I was a 9 before and was a good wake-up slap to face.

http://personalitycafe.com/type-9-fo...bbit-hole.html

[Chae]

Cool, that's some novel explanation! How did you relate to acedia?

[ApeironStella]

Cool, that's some novel explanation! How did you relate to acedia?

I relate to it as I seem to have this attitude of "What's the point? It doesn't matter" approach to my own life, for a pretty long time by now. There is justifying things that actually hurt as "it doesn't matter" or "it is okay". A good example to it would be my situation with a close friend- Many things happened and in the end, when it seemed we would 'broke up', I automatically found myself trying to deny that I actually cared or that it effected me at all- which, to her, seemed like I didn't care at all while it was the opposite of trying to set a barrier between my emotions and myself because I felt like I wouldn't be able to handle it at the time if I actually let myself feel it. Though, I have to say that I probably relate more to 5 or maybe 4 after thinking it over again--

I recall being told about that 9 view of "no love is real" thing from my mother, who might be a 9 herself. (most likely 9w8 in that case, though 8w9 also possible. She has a certain 6 <-> 9 5 <-> 8 line connection vibes but I can't exactly place where.) There is certainly a deadening of feelings and finding them untolerable and trying to cut self off from them to stay calm and get unaffected- which would actually might lead to 5 now that I think about it? Her view was more along the lines of "it is natural for humans to be using each other and even a mother would love their children because they put so much effort in it and it is also a natural thing, taken the hormones they wouldn't care about the child either." kind of view, so this kind of confuses me as I don't think I really focused on whole love issue before that? I recall mostly focusing on trying to understand human stuff in general, and feeling a great connection to both my parents, then ending up closing up to both and cooling down towards them despite still acting normal. So I am a bit uncertain.

All I can say is that I mostly feel fake around both when I act close to them, so that's really all I have on this love issue. I am not sure if that's the message I originally felt or somehow adopted....

[Kiba]

I relate to it as I seem to have this attitude of "What's the point? It doesn't matter" approach to my own life, for a pretty long time by now. There is justifying things that actually hurt as "it doesn't matter" or "it is okay". A good example to it would be my situation with a close friend- Many things happened and in the end, when it seemed we would 'broke up', I automatically found myself trying to deny that I actually cared or that it effected me at all- which, to her, seemed like I didn't care at all while it was the opposite of trying to set a barrier between my emotions and myself because I felt like I wouldn't be able to handle it at the time if I actually let myself feel it. Though, I have to say that I probably relate more to 5 or maybe 4 after thinking it over again--

I recall being told about that 9 view of "no love is real" thing from my mother, who might be a 9 herself. (most likely 9w8 in that case, though 8w9 also possible. She has a certain 6 <-> 9 5 <-> 8 line connection vibes but I can't exactly place where.) There is certainly a deadening of feelings and finding them intolerable and trying to cut self off from them to stay calm and get unaffected- which would actually might lead to 5 now that I think about it? Her view was more along the lines of "it is natural for humans to be using each other and even a mother would love their children because they put so much effort in it and it is also a natural thing, taken the hormones they wouldn't care about the child either." kind of view, so this kind of confuses me as I don't think I really focused on whole love issue before that? I recall mostly focusing on trying to understand human stuff in general, and feeling a great connection to both my parents, then ending up closing up to both and cooling down towards them despite still acting normal. So I am a bit uncertain.

All I can say is that I mostly feel fake around both when I act close to them, so that's really all I have on this love issue. I am not sure if that's the message I originally felt or somehow adopted....

Woah! Thats extremely 5ish!

Thats extremely 9 view, its instinctive, its natural and related to the body, thats true, and this is how I see maternal love too. Its a natural hormonal and relational (from love to husband and for carrying 9 moths with the baby inside their own bodies) consequence...though I dont think its bad, its just how it is. No one is going to love other ppl babies more than they love their own. Its pure instinct.
Though, even view this love as natural or instinctual love, doesnt make this less impressive...
I see parental love as magnificent and wonderful (for me being lazy person, lol) for the enormous and sacrificial efforts that some parents do for their kids... I often ask myself if I'd be a loving mother or if I'll be basically indifferent, just going by this line of natural love and do whatever is necessary to raise them healthy and capable and thats all... I ask myself if I'd see them as a burden in some point or another...because I've seen as a burden when younger too and its not cool.

Anyway, this is exactly why I think that a lot of enneagram authors arent really hitting the spot with 9s and why they are a lot of 4s mistyping as 9s ...some descriptions are really good (as expected because its just observation), but when they try to talk about motivations they seem to switch to acceptance, approval, unworthiness and a lot of other things related to heart types and not to instinctive or gut types... frequently I read this interpretations and wonder, where the hell do they took all of this? They seem completely and chronically forget that 9s belong to guts triad...they end up doing us as a sort of "lazy heart type" that its not really describing what 9 is (and its not surprising since we dont say a lot and we are agreeable by nature -instinctual nature-), so its easy for ppl project themselves over 9s.

For me love comes naturally, its not fake, its natural parents/kids love and natural opposites/complimentary attraction love and spiritual love (its manifested as inherent value and respect for all the living creatures and a comprehension of their natural behavior according their situation and else...)...besides from that, Its really hard for me to feel or manifest love. I'd say that its physical, spiritual and instinctual more than emotional. <---Attention this view scares heart types and 1 types, heart types because for them emotions means a lot (and what I'm saying its like I'm "mutilating" love from their sublime/deep emotional meaning, and its negative to 1s since they have an idealized love taken from this good/bad moral perspective). This is why I think that some of these descriptions on 9s are utterly wrong. On one hand because 9w1 and on the other hand because its constructed from emotional or moral (and societal) perspectives…and it has nothing to do in reality with 9 itself.

Head types should perceive love by definitions, as some sort of intellectual exercise, related to knowing and understanding the other.

And heart types should perceive love as their backbone, where what they feel and what others feel is really important and determining for their own sense of identity, worthiness and value.

[ApeironStella]

Woah! Thats extremely 5ish!

Thats extremely 9 view is instinctive, its natural and related to the body, thats true, and this is how I see maternal love too. Its a natural hormonal and relational (from love to husband and from carrying 9 moths with the baby inside their own bodies) consequence...though I dont think its bad, its just how it is. No one is going to love other ppl babies more than they love their own. Its pure instinct.
Though, even view this love as natural or instinctual love, doesnt make this less impressive...
I see parental love as magnificent and marvelous (for me being lazy person, lol) for the enormous and sacrificial efforts that some parents do for their kids... I often ask myself if I'd be a loving mother or if I'll be basically indifferent, just going by this line of natural love and do whatever is necessary to raise them healthy and capable and thats all... I ask myself if I'd see them as a burden in some point or another...because I've seen as a burden when younger too and its not cool

Anyway, this is exactly why I think that a lot of enneagram authors arent really hitting the spot with 9s and why they are a lot of 4s mistyping as 9s ...some descriptions are really good (as expected because its just observation), but when they try to talk about motivations they seem to switch to acceptance, approval, unworthiness, significance and a lot of other things related to heart types and not with instinctive or gut types... frequently I read this interpretations and wonder, where the hell do they took all of this? They seem completely and chronically forget that 9s belong to guts triad...they end up doing us as a sort of mix between heart types and laziness that its not really related to 9 itself (and its not surprising since we dont say a lot and we are agreeable by nature -instinctual nature-), so its easy for ppl project themselves over 9s.

I will keep self-typing stuff in spoiler.

That's why I keep saying I think it is more likely to be 5w4, haha. I only let my emotions in a controlled setting- Ie I despise it when people come to me seeking a certain emotional reaction but I can knowingly jump into some roleplay in which I would feel depressed by the end of it- it is a place for me to experience emotions and study human behaviour better to get more in touch with emotions. So, that's kinda my confusion reason as one of my lessons was learning to how tolerate my emotions and slowly letting myself reconnect by emotions via using characters as a template to direct them towards. I still do shut them down in an emergency situation, but I would say that I am getting more in touch with them in general?

And yes, it is pretty gut-based response for her I suppose, but since it was around the time right after I was feeling tired of my father's emotional needs/demands and thought her as my safe place, I suppose she kind of unconscinously burned that. I already was feeling like all human connections were fake and based on misunderstandings we think are understanding because we don't realize how much two versions of story differ, how our usage of words differ in meaning etc. so since it was a response during that time I was really frustrated by human connections, it kinda felt like a nail in coffin. Which is funny, because I know that she actually would probably die to protect me and is quite protective. It is quite gut based as you said, but she also has this silently makes her work properly and almost always has a motivation for doing things in her mind- not much of what she does during her interactions with people is random, but she has more of straightforward and honest method of speaking so no one really can blame her with anything. This is something I learned from her, actually. I spent my whole school life by finding loopholes in the system and learning how to learn fast- how to learn core of a subject so I can do it later with some revising before a question or test- and I did it in such a non-problematic way that I don't think any of my teachers really hated me or thought that I had something against them? I would be checking the lecture now and then and doodle or think about something, make some origami or whatever papercraft I was interested in at the time and also keep half tuning in and out to class so if teacher called me out, I would be able to response and then do not bad in tests. I would also be extremely polite while speaking so they really didn't have much ammo against me. I would be pretty honest to my parents about that I do that and that's because I could still keep up with class that way and got bored with slow tempo of the lesson, which was something I did ever since 1st grade so they weren't even surprised. Any sort of trying to establish dominance towards me would end with refusing to do the thing even if it would be towards my unfavour, so I think they simply decided to let me do my thing as I was already honest about things anyway.

Now that I think about it, I always make sure that no one has any ammo to blame me with. I give enough more than chances to people, I try to correct my behaviour if there is anything wrong with it, I try to keep being open to any suggestions on developing myself further and when you have such an attitude, no one can blame or guilt-trip you easily, so I am safe. More than just morality thing, there is also that safety reason.

So that's why I would say 5w4?

Edit: Also, if I keep a cheerful attitude, they also wouldn't realize how I really don't feel as close to them, is a part of my thought process for acting so cheerful with them- as if it could pass like closeness. I think they don't exactly realize as I wasn't really the most affectionate child to begin with.

Indeed, they make them sound either pretty shallow and give a surface view or make them sound too much of a wallflower- which, I don't think 9s really are. And yes, there is that theme I picked with my mother as well- Being seen as unimportant as a children, which she kind of tries to heal from by giving me whatever she felt lacking, best to her capabilities. (This also kind of is bad for her since as an LSI, she really doesn't like being tied down by anything so while I don't think that she sees me as a burden, it still gives a frustration feeling from her, despite her not showing that to me. There are also reasons not related to me that ties her down though, so she is mostly frustrated by them.

Also, as a most likely 9w8, what I picked from her is, she is quite protective. She wouldn't fear fighting someone if she has to to protect others yet she is really careless about her own health. Ie she is a nurse so she is used to automatically seeing what is wrong with a person and giving them advices even if she is talking to someone on street and once actually threatened my grandfather (from my dad's side) to not hit my grandma (again, from dad's side) or she would kill him on spot. Thing is, she might not kill him but she would certainly at least decapacite him and make sure that she would sound the innocent side on court. (Which, she would be.) But she forgets to pay more attention to her own health often.

Bonus: She actually wanted to be a cop when she was a child, so this is most likely related. I would think that she is a 8w9, but she has a really hard time with saying no to people she is close to- She really can be too passive for her own sake at times until her 8 wing finally takes over and she gets shit done.

[Kiba]

That's why I keep saying I think it is more likely to be 5w4, haha. I only let my emotions in a controlled setting- Ie I despise it when people come to me seeking a certain emotional reaction but I can knowingly jump into some roleplay in which I would feel depressed by the end of it- it is a place for me to experience emotions and study human behaviour better to get more in touch with emotions. So, that's kinda my confusion reason as one of my lessons was learning to how tolerate my emotions and slowly letting myself reconnect by emotions via using characters as a template to direct them towards. I still do shut them down in an emergency situation, but I would say that I am getting more in touch with them in general?

<---thats not specifically 5w4 or 4w5, both can do this guess. Emotional role play and learning to tolerate or manage emotions is necesary for 4, though. You should consider that wing has a lot of influence over the main type...its not ornamental, some people think that it just gives a light undertone to the type but its not like that, the wing can be almost as strong as the main type depending on the percentaje. So I'd say that being 5w4 4w5 or 4w5 5w4 doesnt really matter if you have the other one as your second on tritype...I mean, what difference would make if I'd be 8w9 9w8 or 9w8 8w9? It would be just a minor difference, considering that I'd be expressing both of them strongly.


So guess only you can say if you are 4w5 or 5w4 first, because either way, both are equally and strongly present in your life. Anyway yeah, I'd say 5w4 first considering your sociotype and mbti. Chose what you feel more related to depending if head (thinking, ideas etc) is more important for you than heart (emotions, feelings etc) or the opposite, what you consider first when making decisions? Whats more important, your ideas or hurt your or others feelings?

And yes, it is pretty gut-based response for her I suppose, but since it was around the time right after I was feeling tired of my father's emotional needs/demands and thought her as my safe place, I suppose she kind of unconscinously burned that. I already was feeling like all human connections were fake and based on misunderstandings we think are understanding because we don't realize how much two versions of story differ, how our usage of words differ in meaning etc. so since it was a response during that time I was really frustrated by human connections, it kinda felt like a nail in coffin. Which is funny, because I know that she actually would probably die to protect me and is quite protective.

The thing of "human connections are fake" and "no one can understand the other and therefore no one can understand me properly-not even me-" its a 4 feeling, the "you aren't loving me properly" feeling about their childhood.

Now that I think about it, I always make sure that no one has any ammo to blame me with. I give enough more than chances to people, I try to correct my behaviour if there is anything wrong with it, I try to keep being open to any suggestions on developing myself further and when you have such an attitude, no one can blame or guilt-trip you easily, so I am safe. More than just morality thing, there is also that safety reason.

…again, 4 (as 4 wing or on heart type on your tritype) could manifest 1 tendencies since growth path. Moral and being beyond criticism is related to 1, I think its for survival or safety as you call it, since 1 is an gut type.

Yeah, its common to "adopt" a certain view or attitude from our parents…I've 2 as my heart type, and I'm sure its because my mother is 2, that was the "way" I learned.

If she's LSI its more likely to be 8w9 if she's SLI more prone to be 9w8, but if she's nurse is more related to SLI than LSI guess. Also 8 has their growth path on 2, so if your dad is 2 its likely that your mom would be attracted to him naturally.

Make her some tests anyway.

Ie she is a nurse so she is used to automatically seeing what is wrong with a person and giving them advices even if she is talking to someone on street and once actually threatened my grandfather (from my dad's side) to not hit my grandma (again, from dad's side) or she would kill him on spot.

LOL THIS

I dont know if I'd be capable of give death treats but for sure I've thinking on actually hurting someone for real if they hurt my family...though I dont think that I'd give a warning over it.

[ApeironStella]

<---thats not specifically 5w4 or 4w5, both can do this guess. Emotional role play and learning to tolerate or manage emotions is necesary for 4, though. You should consider that wing has a lot of influence over the main type...its not ornamental, some people think that it just gives a light undertone to the type but its not like that, the wing can be almost as strong as the main type depending on the percentaje. So I'd say that being 5w4 4w5 or 4w5 5w4 doesnt really matter if you have the other one as your second on tritype...I mean, what difference would make if I'd be 8w9 9w8 or 9w8 8w9? It would be just a minor difference, considering that I'd be expressing both of them strongly.


So guess only you can say if you are 4w5 or 5w4 first, because either way, both are equally and strongly present in your life. Anyway yeah, I'd say 5w4 first considering your sociotype and mbti. Chose what you feel more related to depending if head (thinking, ideas etc) is more important for you than heart (emotions, feelings etc) or the opposite, what you consider first when making decisions? Whats more important, your ideas or hurt your or others feelings?





The thing of "human connections are fake" and "no one can understand the other and therefore no one can understand me properly-not even me-" its a 4 feeling, the "you aren't loving me properly" feeling about their childhood.







…again, 4 (as 4 wing or on heart type on your tritype) could manifest 1 tendencies since growth path. Moral and being beyond criticism is related to 1, I think its for survival or safety as you call it, since 1 is an gut type.

Yeah, its common to "adopt" a certain view or attitude from our parents…I've 2 as my heart type, and I'm sure its because my mother is 2, that was the "way" I learned.

If she's LSI its more likely to be 8w9 if she's SLI more prone to be 9w8, but if she's nurse is more related to SLI than LSI guess. Also 8 has their growth path on 2, so if your dad is 2 its likely that your mom would be attracted to him naturally.

Make her some tests anyway.



LOL THIS

I dont know if I'd be capable of give death treats but for sure I've thinking on actually hurting someone for real if they hurt my family...though I dont think that I'd give a warning over it.

It is most likely 4w5 at this point, honestly. A core 5 wouldn't be as obsessed with getting their typing and be as confused/lost about their typing, I think? They could be unwilling to accept it as easily because it would give others advantage over them, power with knowledge other side knows about them (my 5 ILI friend's reaction when I showed him 5 description, probably 5w4 as his game is stronk) while just like my 4 EII friend, I am more willing to spread my type (well, my mistype. I don't think I would be as willing to admit my type as a 4, which probably should be a dead give-away as nobody really acts admitting their weakness.) so while 5 certainly is a strong influence in my life, it probably is 4 core with 5 wing and 5w4 as secondary type, yeah. 4w5 5w4 9w1 then... Huh. I circled around that tritype, funny enough. I always saw it described as possible mistype for people who come to Enneagram so I think I tried to distance myself from it to not be a "special snowflake".

And yeah, difference is pretty subtle here.

And well, thing is, she didn't exactly have a choice at the time. It was either not having any job and staying behind to look after my (at the time she didn't know but actually pretty emotionally abusive) grandmother or go study to be a nurse despite not wanting it really but having as only option as youngest daughter of 5 sisters, which had 4 of them already being/studying to be a nurse. So I don't think it really has more to do with being first or first, really.

And haha. My dad most likely was a 2w3, ESE to booth. (If she is LSI, then semi-duality. Which, would make sorta sense? Though, his lack of sp and her sp-firstness eventually crashed. so/sx and sp/so might be good as a team in a work, I am sure that they would work together really well in a community-oriented place but as a relationship? Nah.)

She gave warning before he could hurt her, haha. And yeah, 9w8s can be scary. They are mostly chill but if you cross their loved ones, be prepared to be annihilated