Originally Posted by
Bertrand
if I'm understanding you correctly, we have several layers which would be the positive (+) or negative usage (-) of a function, as well as its dimensionality, as well as its position within the blocks, and then we have whether it falls into a "producing" or "receiving" role? So for ESI it would be something like:
EGO
1. Program (4d): Fi
2. Creative (3d): Se
SUPEREGO
3. Role (2d): Ti
4. Painful (1d): Ne
SUPER ID
5. Suggestive (1d):Te
6. Mobilizing (2d): Ni
ID
7. Ignoring (3d): Fe
8. Demonstrative (4d): Si
now to apply subtypes we would either positive charge 1, 4, 6, and 7 with 2,3,5 and 8 being negative charged (Fi subtype) or reverse it and make it +1467 and -2356 (Se subtype)
the difference being between Fi:
(1) +Fi: My attitude to people. Necessity to express my attitude, opinion, feelings of love. Pleasant/unpleasant. My evaluation of a thing, an object, a person.
(2) -Se: Beautiful/ugly (judgment). Physical violence, danger.
(3) -Ti: Difficult task; a challenge to the intellect. Necessity to figure out and understand.
(4) +Ne: Integrity of the environment: everything is known from beginning to end; the world as if rolls on straight tracks; there is a schedule; the world is predictable, people are predictable, too.
(5) -Te: Loss of values, money. Infringement of the order. Natural disasters. Traffic jams. “Facts are the objective reality.” Numbers, statistics. Loss of territory. Car breakage; TV, home appliance breakage. Dirt in the hall on the carpet.
(6) +Ni: Integrity of the inner situation: good, pleasant mood, harmony with the external world; fun, happiness; plunging in thought.
(7) +Fe: External relationships. Relationships with people. People’s attitude to me. Negotiations. Meetings with friends. Fellowship with close ones.
(8) -Si: Indisposition, pain, hunger, fatigue, unpleasant sensations of other origin.
and Se:
(1) -Fi: I abhor, reject, detest.
(2) +Se: Form, fashion, appearance. Movement, action, activity. Skills. Will.
(3) +Ti: Understanding, hierarchy, structure.
(4) -Ne: Infringement of the integrity of environment: unexpectedness, breach of schedule; the result of events is unpredictable, or an unexpected event.
(5) +Te: External circumstances, events, facts. Personal space. Technology of arrangement. Statistics. The external world is the objective reality. Matter. Documents. Rules, laws. Material values. External social norms.
(6) -Ni: Infringement of the inner peace: irritation, moral discomfort; internal contradictions.
(7) -Fe: Conflicts. Intrigues. Slander. Quarrel with near and dear ones. Conflicts at work.
(8) +Si: Various bodily sensations: that of being strong and healthy, taste, color, smells. The practice of cleansing and healing techniques and diets; attention to health. Following fashions in the area of health.
So in this case it seems like positive or negative charge comes down to avoiding the bad versus actively promoting/seeking/creating the good manifestations of each element. I also read somewhere that a negative orientation entails a certain proficiency with the positive mode but not vice versa. In other words, (-) means you can do (+) as well, but (+) doesn't mean you use (-). Is that true? If that's the case it seems to create a puzzling result where the Se type is actually more versatile in the Fi "subtype" functions, it just uses them to avoid negative manifestations of them; likewise the Fi type, somewhat counter intuitively would have a broader mastery of "Se subtype functions" although it would use them mainly to promote (+) Fi subtype functions. Its a weird relationship where Fi is Fi mainly because its seeking +Fi but in doing so has greater range over Se subtype functions. I guess if the idea is Fi is not about proficiency but preference than all of that makes sense, but it seems weird because I imagine most people when they assess themselves think "hmm am I more Se based or Fi based?" and would look at their skill-set and abilities and think because they're better at "Se stuff" that makes them Se, but it could very well make them Fi.
If you go by "skills" then the Fi subtype can do both negative and positive (although primarily oriented at avoiding the negative): Se Si Te Ti, and is limited to mainly expressing the positive of: Fi Fe Ne Ni. The overall effect is someone who, paradoxically, could be considered a better "sensor/thinker" than the Se subtype, although mainly by way of (-) functions, so they would be better but they would not personally value those things; whereas the Se subtype would be "better" at Fi Fe Ne Ni although primarily oriented at sensing/thinking. In other words, the sensor type might have a more sophisticated handle on feeling/intuition, but simply employ it towards more sensory/thinking ends, whereas the feeling subtype would have a better handle on sensing/thinking, but it would show up not as manifesting those things but avoiding their negative potential.
When I go through this I think all those things appeal to me in some way or another, like both subtypes have things about them I identify with so it becomes difficult to separate the two, because they're separate but once you begin to think in terms of (-) and (+) they tend to kind of converge again, which makes sense because they are fundamentally still only subtypes and part of a greater unity. I feel like I have no subtype or that depending on mood I lean one way or the other. I see the value in each approach and think they're more or less context dependent. Sometimes you want to look good/feel good (Se type) and sometime you want to theorize (Fi type) etc
**I guess if you really think about the way I phrased that it militates towards Fi subtype because looking good/feeling good could be a (+) facet of (-) Se, and theorizing is pure +Ti Ni Ne and -Te. Which I find very much convincing that I'm Fi subtype, although because of gender roles and socialization and the range of skills entailed by (-Se) made me at first think I was Se subtype. It also makes me think the common stereotype of the ESI is the Se subtype mainly on the basis of "the external world is the objective reality" vs Fi "facts are the objective reality", which is where ESI gets its kind of "dull enforcer" reputation versus more a kind of Fi/Ni/Te moralizer
Does that sound right?