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Thread: EIIs/INFjs and plunging into things (projects, people)

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    Default EIIs/INFjs and plunging into things (projects, people)

    I'd had it heard by other users, that EIIs do a tactic mistake in the beginnings of most things (projects, meeting new people etc) where they plunge in headlong and for the longest time I had no idea what anyone was talking about and now it seems to make sense, finally.

    EIIs seem to plunge in headlong into something, in the very beginnings, where they let their likes and dislikes, warts and all, show at first, like their whole thing. I wonder if you've noticed something like this any situations and any situations you could describe? and how you yourselves or EIIs you'd known overcame this? Seems to be a problem.
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    I'd had it heard by other users, that EIIs do a tactic mistake in the beginnings of most things (projects, meeting new people etc) where they plunge in headlong and for the longest time I had no idea what anyone was talking about and now it seems to make sense, finally.

    EIIs seem to plunge in headlong into something, in the very beginnings, where they let their likes and dislikes, warts and all, show at first, like their whole thing. I wonder if you've noticed something like this any situations and any situations you could describe? and how you yourselves or EIIs you'd known overcame this? Seems to be a problem.
    I have a sample of two EII's, and both of them do kind of plunge into things at first, and reveal all of their faults right away.

    But I also agree with @kalinoche, in the sense that their revealing themselves is somewhat balanced by their hard work and efforts to be useful.

    I could see this as behavior that is intended to attract LSE duals, who tend to be oblivious to people (EII shouts, "Look at me and my faults") unless they can help them in some way (EII's can be incredibly helpful). Or, it could be me, acting on my confirmation bias of the things other people say.

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    Um. Depends on the project. If it's buying a house I'll organize everything and look at my best options and come across something but will feel afraid to take the plunge or will question my choices excessively. I'm a very cautious pursuer. I'll work out all the details and because I'm farsighted I'll calculate so many minute details before taking any real steps. LSE actually love that about me. They love how thoughtful and cautious (opposite of impulsive) I am. When talking to an LSE, it turns out that I have considered all the variables as they have, except they talk about the variables and I just think about them. For example a friend was considering a move to a further location, me and an LSE friend were helping him consider his options. The one moving is SEE. He got so excited about moving something like an hour away. Both the LSE and I asked him to slow down and consider the details of the move. First, the drive would be very long and on some days with heavy traffic even longer, the wear and tear on the car would not be financially worth the extra 300 they would save on an apartment. After asking the SEE to consider all the details he found a better option, which was to buy a house that was only 20 minutes away and cost $200 more on their income. Worked out great for him.

    Sometimes when SEE want something they'll find a way to make it work for them but sometimes those steps stretch their energy in ways that they would not have thought of before.
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    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

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    I have not known Ijs who plunge in without a little preplanning; however, their plans may be based on incomplete data. N-types tend to overlook key facts while S-types the big picture so they can make bad decisions. They all believe in safety first but once they commit, they're usually all in. I think you may be witnessing inexperience or incompetence rather than inherent rashness; however, when it comes to petty decisions or when under high pressure, Ijs can act rashly but this usually would be the exception not the rule.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    @Rebelondeck Yeah, i could probably describe it better if used words other than 'plunging in' , but basically kinda like: here's all this massive Ne and its idiosyncrasies.
    @kalinoche that is an astute observation, i've only just now noticed this sort of 'pattern' so have only a couple of examples at hand but now that i noticed it it's like very obvious.
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    I know that I fall hard and fast. I think I'm too confident in my feelings for another person and I understand how it could be offputting for types that are not confident in their feelings. I've learned over time but I was always a romantic at heart and it sometimes got the best of me

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    Intuitive introverts do not "plunge in" to anything.

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    I'm not sure I would describe this behavior as "plunging in," but yes, I do often reveal too much, too soon and/or in inappropriate contexts. Once a girl in my improv class complimented my wavy hair before a show we were doing, and I somehow turned it into a intense confession about how scared/nervous I always get before shows. Another time, I was hanging out with a few friends and some new people we were thinking of forming an improv team with. One of my friends asked how grad school has been going, and I said something like, "I'm relieved that I'm done with my third year paper, but I have a meeting with my adviser about it tomorrow, and I'm really nervous for it. Lately I've been feeling a need for external validation." Which doesn't sound bad when read casually, but if you think about it, it's basically confessing to anxiety or a lack of confidence, which is generally not something you are supposed to explicitly point out about yourself, especially when meeting new people. I also often give casual acquaintances too much information about my dating experiences.

    I think this behavior comes from two main EII traits: (1) how we value authenticity and honesty above anything else, and (2) our method of befriending people.

    Regarding (1), other types can obviously value authenticity/honesty as well, but EIIs are the ones who would fall on their own swords for it (and maybe also ESIs, as our Fi lead counterparts). If someone asks me "How's it going?", I would rather give a thorough, true, perhaps uncomfortable response ("I haven't received external validation lately, and I really want some. How's it going with you?") than a half-assed fake one ("Pretty well, how are you?"). Perhaps it seems unnecessary to go into detail, because one can be truthful without revealing the whole truth. And sometimes I do do that. But it's still not as honest as being completely transparent with everything.

    Regarding (2), EIIs use self-disclosure as a way of getting closer to people. By treating someone as if they are already a good friend that you would tell everything to, you create a more personal atmosphere and reduce the psychological distance between you two.

    This trait does sometimes make people uncomfortable, but as others in this thread have mentioned, I don't think it causes major problems for me. While I do reveal warts much earlier than most people do, I am still rather strategic and capable of restraining myself from revealing the biggest warts.

    It probably is a bit dual-seeking, since LSEs greatly value honesty, and you can't signal honesty by only talking about your good points. I think talking about your bad points also reveals self-awareness and hence intelligence--when I'm evaluating a potential romantic partner, I always ask him what he thinks his weaknesses are, and my interest plummets if he does not provide a self-aware answer.

    Ultimately, I think this trait attracts the people I want to attract--people who also value authenticity, people who are thoughtful and conscious of things like the human desire for external validation--the meta game of human existence, if you will--and repels the people I don't particularly care for--people who prefer following social rules, running on autopilot.

    @Delilah, are you an EII? Have you observed this behavior in yourself or an EII friend? Why do you think this trait is a problem?

    Edit: New example from today. Earlier this week, I filled out a form for getting started with personal training at a specific gym, and one of the questions was "What is your greatest motivation for training?" and I said something like "to attract men." This is a cringeworthy response, as opposed to nobler goals such as health, but it's the truth. I met the trainer I was matched with today, and she was really great and totally not put-off by my self-disclosure, so I think we will get along well. Unexpected self-disclosures are a really great filtering tool, in my experience. If you can't handle my weirdness, let's find that out at the start and not waste our time. =D
    Last edited by Saoirse; 04-16-2017 at 03:38 AM.

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    @Economist: i don't think it is necessarily a problem, as @kalinoche also explained, merely a potential one where i've noticed people feel awkward by these self-disclosures as you properly call it; and yes i agree that some people may not be able to handle these but more than anything I've noticed people consider these small discursive acts of EII as tactical errors: it is as if they expect the EII to do themselves in any minute now lol.

    As for me I've noticed a lot of identical behaviour in myself and in being too inward I didn't have a proper gage on how my behaviour very-much-like-what-you-describe comes across to others. Thanks for such an elucidating reply
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    @Economist: do you feel like part of reason EII appear austere in the exterior has to do with Se polr? Like a need to be guarded from abuse, forms of being taken advantage of etc?
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    @Economist: do you feel like part of reason EII appear austere in the exterior has to do with Se polr? Like a need to be guarded from abuse, forms of being taken advantage of etc?
    What do you mean by austere?

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    @Economist: I mean cold, or strict, or like the impression (though not necessarily the case) of someone who maybe doesn't open up. Ganin mentions in his descriptions a dispassionate expression, etc. Thanks
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    @Economist: I mean cold, or strict, or like the impression (though not necessarily the case) of someone who maybe doesn't open up. Ganin mentions in his descriptions a dispassionate expression, etc. Thanks
    I'm not sure for other EIIs, but for me, when I appear austere, yes, it's probably due to Se PoLR, but it's not because I'm trying to avoid being abused or taken advantage of.

    When I appear austere, it is in a large group context where I am not friends with anyone in the group. The dynamics of large groups involve knowing when to yield to someone else talking vs. when to talk and make everyone else listen to you. When I'm not close to anyone in the group, I don't know what things I could say that people will find interesting or boring, and I'm very averse to looking really pushy/self-centered/not letting others talk, so I end up not saying much, and this makes me look austere. I think this is indeed due to Se PoLR. I behave this way to protect myself from embarrassment.

    However, in my case, it is not due to the other part of what you said--protecting oneself from being taken advantage of--so I would separate that concept from Se PoLR. When I'm being taken advantage of, it's usually in a more personal context, like with a close friend or romantic partner. In this intimate situation, I'm never austere. It is not natural for me to protect myself from being taken advantage of. In the past, I have unconsciously allowed myself to be encroached upon much further than I should have. Only recently have I begun sticking up for myself, which I do not do by trying to appear closed off/austere--this would not be productive in a close relationship. Instead I try to talk things out, speak my truth, what have you.

    Bonus ramble: I think a lot of the time that others are encroaching on an EII, it's because they don't even realize it. They themselves would easily speak up if they were the slightest bit bothered, and they assume that all others would do so as well--but EIIs would speak up only if they are extremely bothered, about to literally break down. So, lowering your threshold for speaking up, and simply talking about your feelings earlier, should be beneficial for your mental health (and won't aversely affect your relationships)!

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    I'm not an EII, but I do share the Se polr.

    When I find myself in Se interactions, I am forced to use a mental coin toss to decide how to respond. When the coin lands on the passive side, people will tell me to not let that guy walk all over me, and to stick up for myself. If the coin lands of the aggressive side then people ask me why am being a dick and how I should be a better team player. This guessing game quickly becomes tiring. Acting austere is the best middle ground in these interactions, because I can't lose an interaction I don't care about, and acting indifferent and hard to approach will decrease the number of these interactions I need to deal with.
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    For me it would make sense if my ESI friend would say it seems to her that I am plunging in everything headlong. Ne-Ni thingy. The thing with us EIIs is that we get disappointed too often. Too bad. Therefore it looks every once in a while as if we had no idea in the first place why we started to do what we did or are doing. Too awkward. The question an ESI would ask would be perhaps: but why did you start doing X and Y in the first place anyway (expecting Ni-filled answer). But we don't value Ni. We tend to know what we are good at and how we feel about it, and we go for it. And then, the real part of life with all the Ni and Se it requires seems overwhelming to us. Therefore, we get disappointed and need pushing

    I am doing PhD. I had a period in my life for almost a long time in which it seemed I have no idea what I want from my life. My LSI father was really mad at me. It was so much Ne I was using at that period. But Ne is our second function, so not too strong like Fi anyways. So unlike IEEs we seem plunging in. Alas. Even now in my PhD I have periods of "shit! I will never be able to do this, it's too difficult; why did I start it in the first place?". But I really every time do know that those moments are really transient, so, I am not sure why I panic the way I do. Disappointment periods. not fun.

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    With my creative are projects, I start and I won't stop until I have completed them. There are times when I get new ideas, I'll start a new project, but I always go back to the original one that I started. There is a matter of planning how the project will go, how to get from point A to point B. I get the vision in my head and then delve into it. It may take a little processing, where I want to go with it. I I know when it comes to my academic work, I get very engrossed in it and have a tendency to go above and beyond in writing. I do work on things at my own pace, but I don't like to let things wait too long.

    As for people, it takes me a little time to open up to people. But I am willing to lend a helping hand, and once someone is in my life and I do get to the point of opening up, it's hard for me to let them go. With telling people about myself, if anything I hold back. When I get comfortable with people, there is a possibility of oversharing. I suppose there isn't much middle ground, but I'm more on the side of holding back, or being unable to properly explain.
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    Meh, I don't ever go 100% into most things, BUT when I get interested in something I go a huge percent, probably like 85% and I'll think I'll be doing this thing for a long time (learning a new language, taking a class etc etc) and then a few weeks later I stop, and I'm like where did that fire go.

    But I don't think I ever plunge into things I don't care about. I maybe will get impulsive when it comes to solving huge problems in my life, example: Car breaks down you need to pay this amount to fix it. I don't stop and think too much I'm just like "here take my damn money and rid me of this problem". I've made that stupid mistake a few times. If that's what you mean by jumping in head first.

    @Syynth oh man you know the struggle! I love the way you explained that, so accurate for me too.
    Last edited by Lord Pixel; 10-22-2019 at 11:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    @Economist: do you feel like part of reason EII appear austere in the exterior has to do with Se polr? Like a need to be guarded from abuse, forms of being taken advantage of etc?
    This is exactly why I put on the austere.

    I don't want someone picking me out of a crowd as the weak one they can get over on. And because of Se PoLR and not knowing one's own strength/force of will whatever it's hard to believe that you can fight back against a predator so you try and make yourself not look like prey in the first place. Perhaps getting into a fist fight will provide a reality check, one that shows you the limit's of your strength but also that you aren't not as fragile as you might feel.

    I remember getting punched in the face in a martial arts spar and man it was one of the moments I felt the most alive lol. Like all the fear of what would happen went away and I was able to get up from underneath that fear and actually live more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse View Post
    I'm not sure for other EIIs, but for me, when I appear austere, yes, it's probably due to Se PoLR, but it's not because I'm trying to avoid being abused or taken advantage of.

    When I appear austere, it is in a large group context where I am not friends with anyone in the group. The dynamics of large groups involve knowing when to yield to someone else talking vs. when to talk and make everyone else listen to you. When I'm not close to anyone in the group, I don't know what things I could say that people will find interesting or boring, and I'm very averse to looking really pushy/self-centered/not letting others talk, so I end up not saying much, and this makes me look austere. I think this is indeed due to Se PoLR. I behave this way to protect myself from embarrassment.

    However, in my case, it is not due to the other part of what you said--protecting oneself from being taken advantage of--so I would separate that concept from Se PoLR. When I'm being taken advantage of, it's usually in a more personal context, like with a close friend or romantic partner. In this intimate situation, I'm never austere. It is not natural for me to protect myself from being taken advantage of. In the past, I have unconsciously allowed myself to be encroached upon much further than I should have. Only recently have I begun sticking up for myself, which I do not do by trying to appear closed off/austere--this would not be productive in a close relationship. Instead I try to talk things out, speak my truth, what have you.

    Bonus ramble: I think a lot of the time that others are encroaching on an EII, it's because they don't even realize it. They themselves would easily speak up if they were the slightest bit bothered, and they assume that all others would do so as well--but EIIs would speak up only if they are extremely bothered, about to literally break down. So, lowering your threshold for speaking up, and simply talking about your feelings earlier, should be beneficial for your mental health (and won't aversely affect your relationships)!
    True, I do envy people who speak up at the slightest bother, I envy that self respect. I just feel the fear of, if I speak up and the other person speaks up even more, can I handle that? And I mean, I don't really know, that fear makes me do other things like avoid that person or other passive aggressive things until being bothered becomes stronger than the fear of conflict.

    I always feel like if I say " Can you STOP?!" the person can say "WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO ABOUT IT?!" and after that I draw a blank. It's only after I know the person well enough can I gauge whether I can stand up to them.

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