Discussion on Instinct Ranges or Subtypes (thread split)

[Samson]

It certainly is more balanced. The wanderer one is clear to me as an Sx/Sp type description, but I can see how it can get confused for an Sp/Sx type description with the wording used.

Fair enough. This problem can be alleviated via longer descriptions like the sub-type descriptions or more precise ones to keep things clear and avoid confusion. The origin of the problem stems from short descriptions being used in conjunction with some not being clear enough.

Yeah. The descriptions feel incomplete to me. Especially the Sx/So ones, given how brief they are. It's an interesting theory, but I think it needs to be fleshed out more.

True, the author's goal for both was the same, which was to show an SP heavy version of sx/sp and so/sp, but the author didn't put enough emphasis on the primary instinct on the wanderer one unlike the formal one, which has lead to the misinterpretation.

No doubt, I think the main message to take away from this is that the descriptions must be taken with a grain of salt. I think the theory itself of instinctual ranges holds water regardless.

I believe so too. Though it also makes me think of how the stackings are influenced by the type, (and even tritype). For example an Sp/Sx 4w3 showing more Sx-like qualities than an Sp/Sx 1w9. There are many factors that may play into it, but I do believe that the level of influence an instinct has in a given position (like Sp second) will vary from person to person. We're not made equally, after all.

Thanks, that was my goal, to change as little as possible of the wording, but ensure that the message that the author was trying to convey is left intact with a higher emphasis on the fact that it is describing a type of Sx first. Of course like you mentioned, it wouldn't hurt to add more to it.

Cool
Yeah, I do think there is a lot of merit to the theory, and I would like to see it fleshed out more (perhaps I will make an attempt myself, we'll see).

[Myst]

"Wanderer" Sx/Sp (strong sp) - The most classically 'blocked' of the Sx's, often exchanging intimacy in favor of the more immediate pleasures of the physical senses. Paradoxically the most wandering and restless of the Sx/Sp's. Pulls from Sp/So to ensure the Sx flood is contained by the Sp levee, which can provide a sense of stability at the expense of seeming put off by others. Sex can mean a hollow satisfying of the instinct, while more vulnerable feelings are suspended. Quietly charged but muted. Can seem self pres first."

--

to ensure the Sx flood is contained by the Sp levee...

This sentence doesn't say Sx is blocked, it says it's contained by Sp. But the first paragraph says it's "the most classically blocked of the Sx's"

So, if I change the one word in my post to "contained" instead of "blocked," I'd still be making the exact same point, with the exact same meaning. Either way, the description does say that it's the most blocked of the Sx's and that the Sx is contained by Sp. Just to make this clear to everyone, changing one of those words to the other does not change the point of the argument.

Addressing this to @Samson as well.


Notice the things from this same quote on sx/sp that show sx-first very clearly:

- "the most wandering and restless of the Sx/Sp's"
- "charged"

I don't see why the blocked thingy would need to be interpreted as sp dominating sx. Nope, it just means what it already says in the quote: "more vulnerable feelings are suspended". So just a mechanism to deal with the neuroticism of the first instinct. Also it may be a way to try and achieve balance between the sx-first and the pretty strong sp interest too. The balance is not exactly a very stable lasting one though, as evidenced by being the most wandering and restless sx/sp.

[Myst]

I typed mostly at Sx/Sp because of these type of descriptions. They feel like a cop-out to me. It's like saying I would be Sx dom, except it's blocked by Sp. That doesn't work. The very nature of the dominant instinct is neurotic. It's not something one can just block off or 'contain'.
My typing process is similar to yours actually! I would look at my emotional turmoil, see my tendency to obsess and obsess, see how I'm very attuned to chemistry / attraction, and conclude I was Sx. Easy peasy, except that I don't live my life that way. Apart from the one time it truly mattered (a true soul connection, as it were; we're married now), my life has been characterized by me blocking off the pull towards 'mixing energies', or the Sexual instinct. Why? Because in dealing with the world, my tendency is to focus on what something will take out of me, how much 'resources' (time, energy,..) something will cost. I'm naturally 'blocked off', it's my neutral state. It's my blessing and my curse.
So when I look at this Sx/Sp description, I see exactly that, unless I'm misinterpreting it. I see Sx being exchanged for Sp, giving Sp a clear preference. I see a tendency to block off, contain, and that above all a feeling of stability is secured, even at the risk of seeming put off by others. Now, Social last is Social last, which means the 'seeming put off by others' part comes with the territory, but again what gets emphasized here is the need towards stability.

This does sound like you are sp-first. This sx/sp description is not about focusing on "what something will take out of me, how much 'resources' (time, energy,..) something will cost". If "blocked off" has this default meaning to you as applied in your own life, that's fine, but the sx/sp wanderer description is absolutely not about that meaning of "block".

I can try and explain a bit more on the different meaning here if that helps/if you are interested.

[Samson]

Addressing this to @Samson as well.


Notice the things from this same quote on sx/sp that show sx-first very clearly:

- "the most wandering and restless of the Sx/Sp's"

How's this Sx-specific?

- "charged"

Except it doesn't just say "charged," it's "Quietly charged but muted."

What Sx dom is going to be "quietly charged but muted?" Sp second or not, consistentl 'muting' of the Sexual energy means that the individual is not Sx first. You can't just "mute" an out-of-control instinctual reaction!

I don't see why the blocked thingy would need to be interpreted as sp dominating sx. Nope, it just means what it already says in the quote: "more vulnerable feelings are suspended". So just a mechanism to deal with the neuroticism of the first instinct. Also it may be a way to try and achieve balance between the sx-first and the pretty strong sp interest too. The balance is not exactly a very stable lasting one though, as evidenced by being the most wandering and restless sx/sp.

If the emphasis is placed on the 'blocking' of the energy, rather than on following it's lure, then it can't be Sx. The very nature of Sx means it's an impossibility to not be attracted and to not follow that scent.

This does sound like you are sp-first. This sx/sp description is not about focusing on "what something will take out of me, how much 'resources' (time, energy,..) something will cost". If "blocked off" has this default meaning to you as applied in your own life, that's fine, but the sx/sp wanderer description is absolutely not about that meaning of "block".

I can try and explain a bit more on the different meaning here if that helps/if you are interested.

The description sure isn't talking about neurotic Sx...

[Myst]

How's this Sx-specific?

Except it doesn't just say "charged," it's "Quietly charged but muted."

What Sx dom is going to be "quietly charged but muted?" Sp second or not, consistentl 'muting' of the Sexual energy means that the individual is not Sx first. You can't just "mute" an out-of-control instinctual reaction!

If the emphasis is placed on the 'blocking' of the energy, rather than on following it's lure, then it can't be Sx. The very nature of Sx means it's an impossibility to not be attracted and to not follow that scent.

The description sure isn't talking about neurotic Sx...

After I read the post of yours where you describe how sp is truly the most important for you, I can understand why it might be hard for you to take the right interpretation for this sx/sp description. It's hard to put it in a few words without being ambiguous especially if you can't relate to it from personal experience.

OK, point by point: the wandering stuff refers to finding what you can connect to intensely. Following that scent that you yourself refer to in your post. The muting refers to what it looks like superficially, which is not the same thing as the instinctual drive itself. And, in the same way, the "blocking" does not refer to removing the instinctual drive. It refers to a protection mechanism for the neurosis, by which the neurosis itself does not go away however. So yes, it is talking about neurotic sx very much.

I hope this helped clarify the points to show how they were not meant from your sp/sx perspective but from a sx/sp perspective. If something is still unclear, feel free to ask.

[flames]

I think the idea is taken too far and leads to mistypes. You can get your dominant instinct under control and develop the others, sure, but at the end of the day you're either one stack or you're not and having subtypes just allows in more people who really aren't one stack into it.

[Samson]

After I read the post of yours where you describe how sp is truly the most important for you, I can understand why it might be hard for you to take the right interpretation for this sx/sp description. It's hard to put it in a few words without being ambiguous especially if you can't relate to it from personal experience.

OK, point by point: the wandering stuff refers to finding what you can connect to intensely. Following that scent that you yourself refer to in your post. The muting refers to what it looks like superficially, which is not the same thing as the instinctual drive itself. And, in the same way, the "blocking" does not refer to removing the instinctual drive. It refers to a protection mechanism for the neurosis, by which the neurosis itself does not go away however. So yes, it is talking about neurotic sx very much.

I hope this helped clarify the points to show how they were not meant from your sp/sx perspective but from a sx/sp perspective. If something is still unclear, feel free to ask.

They call the Sx/Sp with the 'heaviest' Sp "the most wandering and restless of the Sx/Sp's." They are more wandering and restless than the other Sx/Sp's!!! So when you say that the wandering stuff comes from the Sx that follows the scent type of deal... then why aren't the other 'versions' of Sx/Sp more wandering than the 'blocked' version of Sx/Sp, since they would experience their Sx in a less inhibited way?
The description mentions this as the 'paradox' in this subtype (I'm really starting to hate that term lol), but, it doesn't explain why... => in fact, the description doesn't explain anything at all, which is what really makes it poorly done (same goes for all the other descriptions btw, this problem isn't unique to the 'Wanderer' description.)

Nowhere in the description does it say that the muting happens only superficially. We can speculate what it refers to, but if we have to get into speculation of what the author really meant by what he said, rather than the things they actually said, then maybe the conclusion is that really it's a sucky description .

Blocking never describes a removal of the instinctual drive. Even those who are Sx 'blind' still possess that drive. It's a matter of which area your ego over-identified with, and 'blocking' such a drive is something I could see happening with trauma etc. But the way this description handles it is too distracting from the actual Sx neuroses, IMO. I can see what the author was aiming for, but alas, it's a miss from where I'm standing!

[Myst]

They call the Sx/Sp with the 'heaviest' Sp "the most wandering and restless of the Sx/Sp's." They are more wandering and restless than the other Sx/Sp's!!! So when you say that the wandering stuff comes from the Sx that follows the scent type of deal... then why aren't the other 'versions' of Sx/Sp more wandering than the 'blocked' version of Sx/Sp, since they would experience their Sx in a less inhibited way?
The description mentions this as the 'paradox' in this subtype (I'm really starting to hate that term lol), but, it doesn't explain why... => in fact, the description doesn't explain anything at all, which is what really makes it poorly done (same goes for all the other descriptions btw, this problem isn't unique to the 'Wanderer' description.)

Nowhere in the description does it say that the muting happens only superficially. We can speculate what it refers to, but if we have to get into speculation of what the author really meant by what he said, rather than the things they actually said, then maybe the conclusion is that really it's a sucky description .

Blocking never describes a removal of the instinctual drive. Even those who are Sx 'blind' still possess that drive. It's a matter of which area your ego over-identified with, and 'blocking' such a drive is something I could see happening with trauma etc. But the way this description handles it is too distracting from the actual Sx neuroses, IMO. I can see what the author was aiming for, but alas, it's a miss from where I'm standing!

Agree these descriptions could be elaborated on so much more. Also, well, I don't believe in the systematic theory on instinctual stackings per se for a full explanation behind the observations of these patterns on instinct stackings, because it provides far less than a fully justified and grounded explanation - I just find the description hits home in a surprising way for me. A few little patterns consistently displayed across descriptions also make sense tentatively, such as, the stacking version with the strongest secondary instinct is going to look more like the more readily exposed second instinct. Reminiscent of how strengthened Creative function works in Socionics, heh.

As for your points. I don't know where exactly the paradox comes from beyond how it refers to the dynamics of the balance or lack of balance between sx-first and a strong sp. Sx/sp in general can be "restless, torn between the comforts of a stable home life and the urge to wander", according to the link I'll give below, so this dynamics in this case of sx/sp wanderer is being emphasized more. Whatever the exact psychological mechanism is, it's something I can see going on, for sure.

Then you ask about the muting thing, well it doesn't say or imply in any way whatsoever that it's about muting the instinct itself, so you would have to add that additional assumption that it means that. I would rather not do so since it makes zero sense in context. To me what I said about muting being simply about what it looks like makes most sense in terms of what the description overall describes about the sx vs sp dynamics being a protection about intimacy issues, being seemingly put off by others, etc. I also read it elsewhere about how their energy is expressed:"intense energy expressed calmly, steadily, assertively". If sp is stronger than usual for sx/sp then this would result in that muting.

Finally, as for the semantics on "removal of instinctual drive", to clarify, I just meant removing it from the first position.