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Thread: ESI/ISFj life experience doesn't show

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    Default ESI/ISFj life experience doesn't show

    I've just gotten the impression that whatever their life experience: achievements, failures, etc, ESIs won't show them. I wondered why this is, why they seem so understated? Is it something to do with their duals (expectations etc?).

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    It is about trust. The more people know about what you can do, they might take advantage of that. Failures? Probably trying to avoid a commiseration party with others.

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    They don't like being overestimated and are often unsure of their own capabilities. Beyond that, showing off their achievements is not part of their ego functions. Once they open up they appreciate sincere complements about their competence in one on one conversations. Only as long you don't shower them with compliments. That makes them uncomfortable and it does not feed their ego ( in contrast to SEE ).
    Last edited by Cosmic Teapot; 03-24-2017 at 03:15 PM. Reason: typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Horatio View Post
    They don't like being overestimated and are often unsure of their own capabilities. Beyond that, showing off their achievements is not part of their ego functions. Once they open up they appreciate sincere complements about their competence in one on one conversations. Only as long you don't shower them with complements. That makes them uncomfortable and it does not feed their ego ( in contrast to SEE ).
    This too. I've been poked at in good and bad intent just to see how much information someone could pull out of me. I say I don't always have the answer and I may not be right. That and I seem nice so people might have actually thought something through and know how to do it, but then come to me pretending they don't know and ask for favors when they were capable of thinking it through themselves. It was more or less I know if I go to Suzaku she'll do it and maybe she'll do it better than me! It doesn't always work that way. That and if someone were to put me on a pedestal I'd probably freak out, jump off it, and run.

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    It feels like opening myself up to people evaluating my life without the context and understanding to make them qualified to do so. Unless I'm close enough to them that my narrative feels more under control.

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    it never seemed relevant or important. how does one even spot an opportune moment to engage in a grandiose ranting session about oneself during regular conversation anyway? like I never saw the point in boasting about my own set of skills or accomplishments because I always felt that people would come to the conclusion that I'm talented on their own, if it's legitimate then I shouldn't need to make a show of it, right? ...RIGHT?!

    the only issue with that, is that if you downplay yourself enough, which ESIs often do, people will begin to preemptively underestimate you and, even if you do showcase a talent of yours, their perception of that talent will be filtered through your own self-deprecation from previous occasions. like they'll assign less weight to it simply because they've been conditioned to believe that you ain't shit.

    but I don't think it has anything to do with the fear of being taken advantage of? that mentality seems counter-intuitive to me. I feel as though people are much more inclined to take advantage of a person if they believe the person in question has an inferiority complex, than if they were to talk themselves up. the former is indicative of insecurity, in many cases. the latter, of confidence... or arrogance, depending on how you go about it.

    with that said, I will occasionally make erroneous claims about myself just to see who bites. so, this one time at band camp...
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    Because I know I'm small-fry outside of my tiny bubble
    Last edited by suedehead; 03-25-2017 at 12:24 PM.

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    What you're talking about in terms of experience does seem to be true about types with low .

    If it's specifically about advertising one's accomplishments though, that's more about and ESIs shouldn't have a problem with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    What you're talking about in terms of experience does seem to be true about types with low .

    If it's specifically about advertising one's accomplishments though, that's more about and ESIs shouldn't have a problem with it.
    But it isn't about advertising one's accomplishments. It's about revealing something personal about oneself.

    I had commissioned an ESI artist to make some art for me, and over a period of several weeks, we had met several times in her studio and talked for hours about what the work should be, in order for it to be meaningful to me and be interpretable for her.
    During this time, she and I dualized, which meant, for me, that I was happy being in her presence, and for her, I think, that she felt calmer, more secure, and more certain of things. At one point, she told me she wanted to show me some art she had done which she kept in her bedroom.
    Some people might have misinterpreted her actions (like me, for instance, if it had been anyone else), but I saw that her intention was to show me something that she had created out of nothing and which meant a great deal to her, and I was flattered that she shared that with me.

    The fact that she kept her best work in her room, rather than in her studio, shows that she cares more about how she and the people close to her feel about some things, rather than how random strangers might see them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    What you're talking about in terms of experience does seem to be true about types with low .

    If it's specifically about advertising one's accomplishments though, that's more about and ESIs shouldn't have a problem with it.
    The sharp distinction you're drawing here between these two things is very unclear in my mind. At least when I'm looking at myself, because I assign a positive or negative value to my experiences.

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    So this one time I made a real good friend and showed him/her all of my drawings stored away in totes and drawings from since Suzaku was a little girl, like the wedding card Suzaku made for her ENFp at age 4 and that picture was used on the wedding cards and people enjoyed it. I also bothered to show my friend all of the shiny shit and toys in my room because those mean a lot to me. Whether they care or not, a lot of the shinies are hoarded away like dragon memories that shaped the ESI to who they are today. I showed the person because I truly wanted them to see more of who I am.

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    And if Suzaku shows say an LIE all of the videos she made with action figures with LSE friend, making Robot Chicken-like videos, Suzaku probably wants to marry you. Suzaku does not show these to people because of how dark and fucked up they are, but hilarious - like you were like that when you were a kid? You knew that much? Uh-oh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    But it isn't about advertising one's accomplishments. It's about revealing something personal about oneself.
    That is your interpretation of what the OP meant. I'm just trying to make sure people don't get the wrong idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    The sharp distinction you're drawing here between these two things is very unclear in my mind. At least when I'm looking at myself, because I assign a positive or negative value to my experiences.
    Se is not about the personal value of your experiences (nor is Ne for that matter). It's about what you have accomplished and what that says about your ability to get stuff done, in a sense that is unambiguous to other people. Like "I founded this company", "I led this project and it was a success", etc.

    Ne is more about what goes outside of the conventional mold, like say you invented a cure for cancer or some cool new gadget.
    edit: let me rephrase that, since that's still about accomplishment. Ne is about telling people about the unique aspects of you and your life, whether they are experiences, accomplishments, talents, interests, etc...
    Last edited by thehotelambush; 03-27-2017 at 08:18 PM.

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    Although rather discerning about their physical environment, they don't seem all that good at determining what people think of them or their work but they care what people think, especially the ones who they deem important. And on more than several occasions, most have overlooked important considerations to an issue so they tend to become gun-shy. Their reticence seems linked to a fear of, for them, unpredictable consequence. When they feel confident in the outcome or it no longer matters to them, they can become very cavalier, aggressive and or showy - dramatic.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    I hate telling people anything personal about myself.
    I only do it when I "feel" an overwhelming feeling to; however, it passes quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    What you're talking about in terms of experience does seem to be true about types with low .

    If it's specifically about advertising one's accomplishments though, that's more about and ESIs shouldn't have a problem with it.
    How's that more ? I would suppose it may eventually have an element of . IME EIEs are fairly "showy" compared to LSIs, just the first example that comes to mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Although rather discerning about their physical environment, they don't seem all that good at determining what people think of them or their work
    As far as I understand, being an introverted and feeling type (i.e. focussed on internal and not-well-defined functions) easily makes you lose sight of where you're placed in the skills/achievment ladder in a more general environment. You will trust more your personal assessment of your current skills / life situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    How's that more ? I would suppose it may eventually have an element of . IME EIEs are fairly "showy" compared to LSIs, just the first example that comes to mind.
    I also feel like being able to judge which accomplishments are actually objectively impressive to others and worth bragging about would take better Te than I have. Like what you said in your next post, yeah. That's what I was trying to get at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    How's that more ? I would suppose it may eventually have an element of . IME EIEs are fairly "showy" compared to LSIs, just the first example that comes to mind.
    Accomplishments are information. You may be right that it has an element of but it is more than . Gamma SFs are more likely to advertise their accomplishments than Alpha SFs for example.

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    @FDG I disagree actually that EIEs are necessarily more showy than LSIs when it comes to life experience and accomplishments specifically. I've met more than one LSI who soon upon first meeting would list off all the things they identify with and believe in and their station in society. EIEs are just more dramatic and showy in general. (edit: so I would say they are about equal to me in terms of being revealing of experience, IME anyway.)

    also @thehotelambush where did you get the idea that accomplishments are Se information? As for whether or not Gammas are more on display than Alphas, this to me is dubious.

    if anything it would seem to involve Te, and Ne as others have mentioned, which is why LIEs seem to be so good at leveraging their talents and making them known and visible to others at the right time. Te sees utility and Ne sees context and latent possibility, which LIEs have both of in high dimensionality. ILEs do as well, which is why a lot of people perceive them as kind of narcissistic with they way they believe they are omni-talented sometimes.
    Last edited by niffer; 03-30-2017 at 06:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Gamma SFs are more likely to advertise their accomplishments than Alpha SFs for example.
    Really? I think ESI and SEI are more or less equal from this pov, as well as SEEs and ESEs.
    @niffer: yeah, LIEs can also be showy, especially when they're negotiating...ILEs are similar from this point of view, true.
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    @FDG ESE is better placed to advertise their achievements than any SEE or ESI i've known ime, there's also elements of showing-ness in Caretaker behaviour "here it is, look at it, here's how I do this" though sometimes it may fit the situation and doesn't come across as bragging.

    I was surprised by what i'd noticed about ESI because Se is so often associated with 'reality' i rather found that it seems to have to do with week Te imo, particularly where ESI-Fi or even just plain ESI with no clear subtype...

    How does ESI overcome something like this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Accomplishments are information. You may be right that it has an element of but it is more than . Gamma SFs are more likely to advertise their accomplishments than Alpha SFs for example.
    It has more to do with Enneagram if you want to correlate it with a particular theory. It has nothing to do with Se, neither does it necessarily have to do with Te. Advertising of accomplishments is a glorification of a task which functions don't serve to do. They perceive tasks. Glorification like this speaks to motivation rather than information processing.
    Hey, feel free to PM me with any opinions about my type

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    @FDG ESE is better placed to advertise their achievements than any SEE or ESI i've known ime, there's also elements of showing-ness in Caretaker behaviour "here it is, look at it, here's how I do this" though sometimes it may fit the situation and doesn't come across as bragging.

    I was surprised by what i'd noticed about ESI because Se is so often associated with 'reality' i rather found that it seems to have to do with week Te imo, particularly where ESI-Fi or even just plain ESI with no clear subtype...

    How does ESI overcome something like this?
    Ha. I was wondering why it needed to be overcome. And then I remembered the only criticism I get at work..my manager says I'm extremely competent but the one thing holding me back from being promoted right now is that I need to go out of my way to show other, newer people my competence enough for them to know they can come to me and I can guide & teach them. I guess this is the same issue...

    So I am curious about the answer, lol. I just don't see the opportunities to insert myself in other people's shit unless they ask. And people who feel the need to jump in and tell people things before they get a chance to figure it out themselves, making everybody's business their business, that really annoys me and is anti-me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    Ha. I was wondering why it needed to be overcome. And then I remembered the only criticism I get at work..my manager says I'm extremely competent but the one thing holding me back from being promoted right now is that I need to go out of my way to show other, newer people my competence enough for them to know they can come to me and I can guide & teach them. I guess this is the same issue...

    So I am curious about the answer, lol. I just don't see the opportunities to insert myself in other people's shit unless they ask. And people who feel the need to jump in and tell people things before they get a chance to figure it out themselves, making everybody's business their business, that really annoys me and is anti-me.
    Lungs, I work with two male ESI's and neither one of them ever goes out of their way to show anyone anything, despite being extremely competent in almost any subject that is even peripherally related to their job. They keep their heads down, ask questions when they need to, and just do a very good job. Without really engaging much with anyone else.

    So, I just went to one of the guys and asked him how he would show other, newer people his competence. He said, he would show them the things he has done, explain where he was when he started and where he is now, and by that means, the other person would see that he is competent and could go to him with questions.
    He struggled to formulate this answer.

    Personally, I would just let the new people settle in for a while, and when they start on a new task, I would show them what has been done before and what solutions have been found, and then would let them know that they are free to find better solutions, they should let me know if they run into any problems, and I will be checking in to follow their progress every few days. (Some people like this, some don't, but you have to check on them to make sure they aren't adrift or clueless, and aren't producing something which will cost the company in some way or other. This goes against the normal LIE method of just getting agreement on the nature and scope of the work to be done and then inspecting the finished product, but not everyone is an ESI.) Some people fit right in and exceed expectations, and some are better off moving to new companies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Lungs, I work with two male ESI's and neither one of them ever goes out of their way to show anyone anything, despite being extremely competent in almost any subject that is even peripherally related to their job. They keep their heads down, ask questions when they need to, and just do a very good job. Without really engaging much with anyone else.

    So, I just went to one of the guys and asked him how he would show other, newer people his competence. He said, he would show them the things he has done, explain where he was when he started and where he is now, and by that means, the other person would see that he is competent and could go to him with questions.
    He struggled to formulate this answer.

    Personally, I would just let the new people settle in for a while, and when they start on a new task, I would show them what has been done before and what solutions have been found, and then would let them know that they should ask me if they run into any problems, and I will be looking at their progress every few days. (Some people like this, some don't, but you have to check on them to make sure they aren't adrift or clueless, and aren't producing something which will cost the company in some way or other. This goes against the LIE method of just getting agreement on the nature and scope of the work to be done and then inspecting the finished product, but not everyone is an ESI.) Some people fit right in and exceed expectations, and some are better off moving to new companies.
    There are already other people who are assigned to train them and monitor their progress. That's the kind of position I would be promoted to, if I show my capability beforehand by finding other ways to help them when the opportunities arise, by observing and looking for ways to wiggle in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slade View Post
    It has more to do with Enneagram if you want to correlate it with a particular theory. It has nothing to do with Se, neither does it necessarily have to do with Te. Advertising of accomplishments is a glorification of a task which functions don't serve to do. They perceive tasks. Glorification like this speaks to motivation rather than information processing.
    Sociotype is all about motivation, as well as information processing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    There are already other people who are assigned to train them and monitor their progress. That's the kind of position I would be promoted to, if I show my capability beforehand by finding other ways to help them when the opportunities arise, by observing and looking for ways to wiggle in.
    Don't think of it as wiggling in. That sounds like you think of what you are doing as intruding into their space.

    Instead, think of it as teaching them to do the right thing, guiding them to the correct procedure, and basically helping them become better at their jobs. Your goal should be to make them better than you are at the job you do now, to accept responsibility for their failures, and to give them credit for the successes.

    Strangely enough, if you do this, your own boss will notice and will promote you over them, because your boss is looking for people who understand the culture and who place the company's welfare over their own progress, rather than just knowing the facts about how to do something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    also @thehotelambush where did you get the idea that accomplishments are Se information?
    From empirical observation, and from the general definition of as making an impact, i.e. changing or affecting how things actually are. I gave some examples of what exactly I mean above.

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