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Thread: What Traits *Really* Clash

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    Default What Traits *Really* Clash

    By now, I have spent some time researching socionics and observing myself and other people. The following are the traits that I believe actually clash. I have given this a lot of thought. If I clash with someone, it is over one of these dichotomies every time! I therefore believe that these are like quadra values, and therefore how many of which two types share determines how well they relate. Therefore, tell me how strongly you feel about these traits, and where you stand with them. If you want to add any to the list, feel free to do so...

    1) Impersonal vs. Personal ('Investigative' vs. 'Social' in Holland's Code or 'Logic' vs. 'Ethics' in socionics). I am impersonal. I am therefore task-oriented, analytical and investigative. The other side of the coin is someone who is really warm, appreciative and affectionate. How do we clash? I'll give you an example: I love using the computer to contact people. Why? Because it makes things more task-oriented, and so I have a greater degree of control over what I'm doing. Someone more personal would find computers to be too 'unfeeling,' and would rather talk to people on the phone than use a computer. This is 'sappy' to me. OTOH, in conversations, I am distant, not concerned about how people feel, and I don't notice the general mood that people convey. Therefore, I come across as 'cold' to people who are more personal. Therefore, one side is more impersonal and investigative, while the other side is more personal and feeling. Then I am impersonal and it would then be clear how the two sides clash.

    2) Abstract vs. Concrete. ('Intuition' vs. 'Sensation' in the MBTI). When learning or explaining something, some types prefer the big picture. That is me. I simply hate it when people give too much detail. I also much prefer abstract subjects where the details are basically omitted to something that is more practical. Therefore, I am drawn to fields like philosophy, English, and economics over something like biology, electronics, or business. The opposite of this would be like the 'craftsman,' who I would suspect is the most practical, to whom a course in philosophy would be a course in 'abstract jargon.' Therefore, I am clearly abstract.

    3) Organized ('Conventional' in Holland's Code or 'Judging' in the MBTI) vs. Disorganized ('Perceiving' in the MBTI). One type likes to make lists, keep schedules and is organized. They are also detail-oriented. The other side is more open-ended and 'flies by the seat of their pants.' Think Oscar and Felix from the movie 'The Odd Couple.' It is clear how they clash. I am more disorganized here.

    4) Laid-back vs. Perfectionistic. I really clash with certain people here. In my case, when, for instance, I am learning something, there is a 'right' way of doing it and a 'wrong' way. I therefore demand absolute perfection when I'm learning because of this. Even small differences, like the font being off can bother me. This applies to other areas as well. For instance, I like to watch sports, and in doing so, there is almost an 'algorithm' to how they should be watched. I basically expect things to be in certain ratios, proportions, and degrees. When this isn't the case, I can become really flustered and agitated. The opposite side of the coin gives the impression that they simply don't care; life doesn't come in these 'perfectly shaped boxes,' and so perfection is not important. Perfectionsists then are 'uptight' to them. Think Felix and Oscar from the TV show 'The Odd Couple.' I am therefore perfectionistic.

    5) Serious vs. Fun-loving ('Serious' vs. 'Merry' in socoinics). Serious style sees life as 'serious business' and things 'shouldn't be taken lightly.' For them, life is not fun, and you cannot expect it to be fun either. The other side is more fun-loving, more pleasure-seeking, and less serious. It is again clear how they clash. I am fun-loving.

    6) Realistic vs. Idealistic ('E8' vs. 'E4' in the Enneagram). Realists are strong-willed. They don't back down and don't mind putting up a fight if necessary. Think Donald Trump. Idealists are sensitive. They don't like stepping on other people's toes. To realists, idealists don't fight for what they believe in. To idealists, realists don't have enough ideals. I am an idealist here.

    7) Positivist vs. Negativist. Obviously, positivists looks on the bright side, while negativists see more what's wrong with things. It is again clear how they clash. I am positivist.

    In my case, my strongest function is 'Abstract', my weakest is 'Realistic,' and my suggestive function is 'Fun-loving.' That's how I get 'LII.'
    Last edited by jason_m; 02-27-2017 at 06:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    5) Serious vs. Fun-loving ('Serious' vs. 'Merry' in socoinics). Serious style sees life as 'serious business' and things 'shouldn't be taken lightly.'
    I don't know about this, I know lots of Betas who are extremely serious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    By now, I have spent some time researching socionics and observing myself and other people. The following are the traits that I believe actually clash. I have given this a lot of thought. If I clash with someone, it is over one of these dichotomies every time! I therefore believe that these are like quadra values, and therefore how many of which two types share determines how well they relate. Therefore, tell me how strongly you feel about these traits, and where you stand with them. If you want to add any to the list, feel free to do so...
    I'm not quite sure how you think these must always clash. The idea in Socionics is that some of these opposites can either be complementary opposites or incompatible opposites. You are only focusing on the latter here yes?


    I'll give you an example: I love using the computer to contact people.
    That sentence wasn't impersonal.


    5) Serious vs. Fun-loving ('Serious' vs. 'Merry' in socoinics). Serious style sees life as 'serious business' and things 'shouldn't be taken lightly.' For them, life is not fun, and you cannot expect it to be fun either. The other side is more fun-loving, more pleasure-seeking, and less serious. It is again clear how they clash. I am fun-loving.
    I agree with FDG that this isn't what Merry vs Serious is about.


    1) Impersonal vs Personal. I'm too impersonal for my own good. But I don't necessarily clash with the personal "sappy" people. Actually, I quite like some of them around.

    2) Abstract vs Concrete. I'm concrete and again a strong dichotomy for me. Abstract people can criticize me for it, not all of them... I don't often openly criticize them though. Overall a clash from their side more.

    3) Organized vs Disorganized. Organized but not as strong a dichotomy in everything. In some things very strongly so. And here I can actually clash with people who feel that's too confining yep.

    4) Laid-back vs Perfectionistic. I don't get stuck on such small details you listed, I can have myself adjust to such things, but I'm not laid back. I don't really mind people of either orientation.

    5) Serious vs Fun-loving. I'm more serious by default. I don't mind either type of people.

    6) Realistic vs Idealistic. Realistic for me very strongly. I don't mind either type of people.

    7) Positivist vs Negativist. I'm more positivist, I don't mind either type of people.

    For me strongest: Impersonal, Realistic then Concrete and some aspects with Organized. The first two don't necessarily result in clashes, the other two can. The rest not really.



    7) Positivist vs. Negativist. Obviously, positivists looks on the bright side, while negativists see more what's wrong with things. It is again clear how they clash. I am positivist.

    In my case, my strongest function is 'Abstract', my weakest is 'Realistic,' and my suggestive function is 'Fun-loving.' That's how I get 'LII.'
    A positivist enneagram 4 LII.

    They are negativists according to Reinin. Tbh I don't really buy much Reinin, so just noting this. And the E4... self-explanatory.

    PS: I'm not really worried about your typing. Don't take any of these corrections personally please. Just objectively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post

    For me strongest: Impersonal, Realistic then Concrete and some aspects with Organized. The first two don't necessarily result in clashes, the other two can. The rest not really.
    That´s what I was thinking too, some of these traits don´t result in clashes, and it´s also a bit difficult to define their application - f.e. I am very punctual but somewhat messy in my surroundings, hard for me to tell where I belong in the "Organized vs Disorganized" category.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I don't know about this, I know lots of Betas who are extremely serious.
    I agree that the serious/merry dichotomy is flawed and that a lot more goes into it then just Ti/Fe vs Te/Fi valuing. Most Fe egos may be merry but a lot of Ti egos are serious, and there are plenty of Te/Fi types that are capable of displaying some humor on occasion, at least within a small circle of people.

    Overall I'd say that rational is more serious then irrational, Se/Ni more serious then Si/Ne, Introvert more serious then Extrovert, and Logic more serious then Ethics. So from most serious to least, judging purely from this:

    LSI
    ESI/LII/ILI/LIE
    SLI/LSE/EIE/IEI/SLE/EII
    SEI/ESE/SEE/ILE
    IEE

    Something I uncovered when examining this is that all types share the same level of seriousness with others of the same quadra except for LII, LSI, SEE and IEE which are two levels above or below the rest of their quadra. LII is mixed in with a bunch of gammas, SEE is mixed in with alphas, and LSI and IEE sit on the extremes when the rest of their quadras are in the middle. So we might of found an answer to that "black sheep in each quadra" thread.
    Last edited by Muddy; 02-27-2017 at 01:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    2) Abstract vs. Concrete. ('Intuition' vs. 'Sensation' in the MBTI). When learning or explaining something, some types prefer the big picture. That is me. I simply hate it when people give too much detail. I also much prefer abstract subjects where the details are basically omitted to something that is more practical. Therefore, I am drawn to fields like philosophy, English, and economics over something like biology, electronics, or business. The opposite of this would be like the 'craftsman,' who I would suspect is the most practical, to whom a course in philosophy would be a course in 'abstract jargon.' Therefore, I am clearly abstract.
    Introversion fits well with building different mental models. My interests tends to very sporadic.

    It's true that I was pretty good at philosophy. Mainly because large number of people can not step out of their own experience.
    Still I have seen SEIs doing absolutely amazing stuff with their hands. I think I'd call it abstract sensing. My SLI dad can build truly real life like animal models out of clay while he is capable of doing more esoteric stuff it is not his priority. I don't clash with this stuff but do not ask me to do it.

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    Hm. That's a novel way to type yourself. Can you develop that into an overview or model?

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    I thought about this for a while - as an example, I am realistic and abstract and I often felt like I was being strongly in contrast with those who are realistic and concrete, as if only one of the two of us could survive in a given environment.
    On the other hand, I don't mind "idealistic" people at all - perhaps I may even try to help them if they need any kind of help.

    Perhaps these points can help you refine your model a bit, jason.
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    It seemed from the way you described the terms like Serious might clash with Idealistic? The rest of it seemed to make sense though personally when I think Serious VS. Merry I just assume the Merry isn't doing the accounting whereas the toll has risen for the Serious so they need to start checking things though this might tie back to how i view quadras in cycles.
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    And this may be a bit off tangent but when you say you're so committed to a definite correct way of doing something that makes you sound so so process (reinin) that I simply couldn't put off making this side comment
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

    They asked the fox, "Who's your witness?" The fox said, "My tail!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    A positivist enneagram 4 LII.
    I actually strongly identify with 5w4 > 4w5. I really fit the 5w4 description, and I would say that E5 is my main type in the Enneagram. Nonetheless, I still have an emotional side, and I'm more likely to appreciate the 'beauty of a mathematical equation' than analyze it in terms of pure data, fact, method, etc. That was why for some time I called myself 'LII-IEI' (like JohnDo). LII-IEI is fine, but I wonder if maybe LII-EII is better with this combination... TBH, that might be why my type in socionics is such a force fit: E5 and E4 aren't supposed to go together in socionics, but I'm honestly more 5w4 than I am LII...

    EDIT: WRT to the Enneagram, as E5, I clash with E2. As E4, I clash with E8. As 5w4, I am often detached and melancholy, and I therefore need someone emotional to cheer me up, but in an E7 way not an E2 way... (Then I get 7w6 as dual and 7w8 as moth-and-the-flame...)
    Last edited by jason_m; 04-03-2017 at 07:19 AM.

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    Another thought - ESE vs. ILI: could it be that the notion of logic vs. ethics is wrong in this case, and ESEs are simply strong positivists and look at things through 'rose coloured glasses,' while ILIs are still 'emotional' but simply hate positive emotions because they are such strong negativists... maybe that's where there is a clash... (Just food for thought.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    Another thought - ESE vs. ILI: could it be that the notion of logic vs. ethics is wrong in this case, and ESEs are simply strong positivists and look at things through 'rose coloured glasses,' while ILIs are still 'emotional' but simply hate positive emotions because they are such strong negativists... maybe that's where there is a clash... (Just food for thought.)
    No. SLEs are negativists who like Fe. LIIs are as well.

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    Also you're clearly an IEI infatuated with your own HA.

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    Everyone takes some things in life in a merry way and some seriously. Human beings, generally take their own personal values and beliefs very seriously. It seems quite rare for people to be one or the other all the time.
    Important to note! People who share "indentical" socionics TIMs won't necessarily appear to be very similar, since they have have different backgrounds, experiences, capabilities, genetics, as well as different types in other typological systems (enneagram, instinctual variants, etc.) all of which also have a sway on compatibility and identification. Thus, Socionics type "identicals" won't necessarily be identical i.e. highly similar to each other, and not all people of "dual" types will seem interesting, attractive and appealing to each other.

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    Intelligent vs. Non-Intelligent

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    I actually strongly identify with 5w4 > 4w5. I really fit the 5w4 description, and I would say that E5 is my main type in the Enneagram. Nonetheless, I still have an emotional side, and I'm more likely to appreciate the 'beauty of a mathematical equation' than analyze it in terms of pure data, fact, method, etc. That was why for some time I called myself 'LII-IEI' (like JohnDo). LII-IEI is fine, but I wonder if maybe LII-EII is better with this combination... TBH, that might be why my type in socionics is such a force fit: E5 and E4 aren't supposed to go together in socionics, but I'm honestly more 5w4 than I am LII...

    EDIT: WRT to the Enneagram, as E5, I clash with E2. As E4, I clash with E8. As 5w4, I am often detached and melancholy, and I therefore need someone emotional to cheer me up, but in an E7 way not an E2 way... (Then I get 7w6 as dual and 7w8 as moth-and-the-flame...)
    Your language is still forced Ti role like @Subteigh's for example. A bit almost poetic.

    So don't get me wrong, I don't mind it, I'm just saying this as info for typing. Standard disclaimer: it's up to you how you want to type obviously, up to you what info you want to consider for that etc. I don't have much investment anymore in all this either, just responding to old quotes I missed while I was MIA from here.

    I can see you as between 4 and 5, yes. I can't tell your deeper motivations with that so that's all I can say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Envisioner View Post
    Everyone takes some things in life in a merry way and some seriously. Human beings, generally take their own personal values and beliefs very seriously. It seems quite rare for people to be one or the other all the time.
    Interestingly, that's the Gamma philosophy with and beliefs and values. Meanwhile, Alpha endorses multiperspective, universally emotive discussion. Unless maybe LII, which again is close to your type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    By now, I have spent some time researching socionics and observing myself and other people. The following are the traits that I believe actually clash. I have given this a lot of thought. If I clash with someone, it is over one of these dichotomies every time! I therefore believe that these are like quadra values, and therefore how many of which two types share determines how well they relate. Therefore, tell me how strongly you feel about these traits, and where you stand with them. If you want to add any to the list, feel free to do so...

    1) Impersonal vs. Personal ('Investigative' vs. 'Social' in Holland's Code or 'Logic' vs. 'Ethics' in socionics). I am impersonal. I am therefore task-oriented, analytical and investigative. The other side of the coin is someone who is really warm, appreciative and affectionate. How do we clash? I'll give you an example: I love using the computer to contact people. Why? Because it makes things more task-oriented, and so I have a greater degree of control over what I'm doing. Someone more personal would find computers to be too 'unfeeling,' and would rather talk to people on the phone than use a computer. This is 'sappy' to me. OTOH, in conversations, I am distant, not concerned about how people feel, and I don't notice the general mood that people convey. Therefore, I come across as 'cold' to people who are more personal. Therefore, one side is more impersonal and investigative, while the other side is more personal and feeling. Then I am impersonal and it would then be clear how the two sides clash.

    2) Abstract vs. Concrete. ('Intuition' vs. 'Sensation' in the MBTI). When learning or explaining something, some types prefer the big picture. That is me. I simply hate it when people give too much detail. I also much prefer abstract subjects where the details are basically omitted to something that is more practical. Therefore, I am drawn to fields like philosophy, English, and economics over something like biology, electronics, or business. The opposite of this would be like the 'craftsman,' who I would suspect is the most practical, to whom a course in philosophy would be a course in 'abstract jargon.' Therefore, I am clearly abstract.

    3) Organized ('Conventional' in Holland's Code or 'Judging' in the MBTI) vs. Disorganized ('Perceiving' in the MBTI). One type likes to make lists, keep schedules and is organized. They are also detail-oriented. The other side is more open-ended and 'flies by the seat of their pants.' Think Oscar and Felix from the movie 'The Odd Couple.' It is clear how they clash. I am more disorganized here.

    4) Laid-back vs. Perfectionistic. I really clash with certain people here. In my case, when, for instance, I am learning something, there is a 'right' way of doing it and a 'wrong' way. I therefore demand absolute perfection when I'm learning because of this. Even small differences, like the font being off can bother me. This applies to other areas as well. For instance, I like to watch sports, and in doing so, there is almost an 'algorithm' to how they should be watched. I basically expect things to be in certain ratios, proportions, and degrees. When this isn't the case, I can become really flustered and agitated. The opposite side of the coin gives the impression that they simply don't care; life doesn't come in these 'perfectly shaped boxes,' and so perfection is not important. Perfectionsists then are 'uptight' to them. Think Felix and Oscar from the TV show 'The Odd Couple.' I am therefore perfectionistic.

    5) Serious vs. Fun-loving ('Serious' vs. 'Merry' in socoinics). Serious style sees life as 'serious business' and things 'shouldn't be taken lightly.' For them, life is not fun, and you cannot expect it to be fun either. The other side is more fun-loving, more pleasure-seeking, and less serious. It is again clear how they clash. I am fun-loving.

    6) Realistic vs. Idealistic ('E8' vs. 'E4' in the Enneagram). Realists are strong-willed. They don't back down and don't mind putting up a fight if necessary. Think Donald Trump. Idealists are sensitive. They don't like stepping on other people's toes. To realists, idealists don't fight for what they believe in. To idealists, realists don't have enough ideals. I am an idealist here.

    7) Positivist vs. Negativist. Obviously, positivists looks on the bright side, while negativists see more what's wrong with things. It is again clear how they clash. I am positivist.

    In my case, my strongest function is 'Abstract', my weakest is 'Realistic,' and my suggestive function is 'Fun-loving.' That's how I get 'LII.'
    Lots of good observations here. Most of these things are at least loosely related to socionics.

    Complementary elements do "conflict" in a certain way in Model A.
    Realism vs. Idealism could be interpreted as SeTe vs NiTi and in many cases Serious is arguably Ti.
    Organized/disorganized is probably Se/Ne.
    Usually Fe is on the Positivism end of the spectrum with TiNi or TeNi on the negativism end, though Fe can also be negative.
    Perfectionism: TiNi, Laidback maybe TeSi.
    Personal/Impersonal: Fi/Ti.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Interestingly, that's the Gamma philosophy with and beliefs and values. Meanwhile, Alpha endorses multiperspective, universally emotive discussion. Unless maybe LII, which again is close to your type.
    These are loopholes in a the system, which one can only understand on an intuitive and logical level. Quadrants are generalizations of types, which are generalizations of functions, which in themselves are generalizations. All of this leaves very little room for ambiguity(which is the essence of reality) because the generalizations are treated as absolutes.

    When ambiguous individuals such as ourselves are associated with generalizations as if the generalizations are our individuality, there is less room for understanding.
    Important to note! People who share "indentical" socionics TIMs won't necessarily appear to be very similar, since they have have different backgrounds, experiences, capabilities, genetics, as well as different types in other typological systems (enneagram, instinctual variants, etc.) all of which also have a sway on compatibility and identification. Thus, Socionics type "identicals" won't necessarily be identical i.e. highly similar to each other, and not all people of "dual" types will seem interesting, attractive and appealing to each other.

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