SLI-ISTP

**Faith** · 02-14-2017, 05:38 AM

**Myst** · 02-14-2017, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by Slugabed

Are you attempting to see if I am an istj? Well I think that I dont relate so much to Te aux (on mbti).

No, I don't think SLI matches ISTJ much in MBTI, I was just curious.

I must confess that it would be good at certain point to be an istj, at least I would have decent incomes and I could stand the same job for my entire life (not to mention being constant and finishing what I start). I definitely think that the istjs on mbti are better suited for life in general (at least on this slavery society), than the istps. But I highly value my freedom (of thinking and action) over wealth and stability (If I've to choose, I value much more emotional stability than financial security to be honest).

Yeah you sound like a typical MBTI ISTP.

Here the rest of my results.

Where is the one with the type description in a red background from?

Haha your rant on ISTJs... I didn't get offended, no worries. I had my share of arguing with the MBTI ISTPs tbh

I'm past that now, I get it now about why I conflicted with them so much. I can see you understand the types in MBTI well, yeah. What you describe sounds like you have a lot of a gripe with the Te devaluing and especially the Ne PoLR of LSI (that's what most of the stuff you wrote about translates to in Socionics). Where you see the ISTJs as irrational, I tended to see the ISTPs as irrational in my arguments with them.

That was before I understood what was going on. Btw the one thing I don't agree with is the idea of not valuing any facts or evidence. I do value them but Ti>Te valuing in Socionics means I do hold the inner view (Socionics Ti or

) in higher respect. The facts have to fit it first. I do want a logical map of reality that fits actual reality, though, so I do keep updating my inner views on it. It's just, with Ne PoLR it takes a while to turn things around when a perspective shift is required to update the views to a higher better level in terms of the overall systematic view. Make sense?

Now, istjs being Si and istps being Ti doesnt mean that istps dont have any kind of values at all, because obviously, we have. But I think that istjs set values according society...they care so much about what people think and how they can be perceived, their values are the "society values", but the values for an Istp are what reality and experience (Se) provide and what its more logical (Ti) according what they are experiencing and observed. Istps arent judgers but perceivers. We observe outer stuff then we set values, not the inverse, which is what istjs do. Istjs set values based on inner feelings and society, and then go outside and when they see that evidence clashes with their values then judge (set qualifications).

I didn't entirely follow the last part... set qualifications? If you mean they check the outside world looking through their inner view, then yeah. That works.

Finally, its important to consider that the descriptions of SLI has nothing to do with the description of Istj on mbti. Also, the description of LSI is drastically different from Istp. The SLIs descriptions of both sexes are really P, while the description of LSI is really J. Actually, I think that the description of LSI is like a crash(mix) between Ti dom and Entj. Its like a moral dictator with a very military mind. I think thats why a lot of Istps (Ti doms mbti), score SLI (because SLI is more P than LSI). And thats why I say that mbti and socionics cant be truly compatibilized.

Yeah I agree for the most part. As for the LSI descriptions specifically, if by "Entj" you mean MBTI ENTJ, I don't really think it actually fits ENTJ beyond very superficial stereotyping maybe. The descriptions are of course black and white a bit too much.

If you have any conclusion it would be interesting to hear.

Mine is, if we only keep the four "letters" (the dichotomies) in MBTI then the J/P translates directly to the j/p (without any "j/p switch") in Socionics for these two types.

If functions are defined based on the four dichotomies in MBTI then still same.

If functions are defined by mixing in some pure/original jungian ideas (some fans do this "unofficially") then it's a mess lol.

So for example in my own case, a few people who do that and have seen my thinking close enough (because I showed them my internal thinking) want to type me ISTP because they see (jungian) Ti and they don't know "standard" MBTI ISTP well. Everyone else types me as ISTJ.

By the way, are you identifying yourself with Istp on mbti?

No... I identify with ISTJ much more. Started out as ISTP because of Jung then realized after talking to the real "standard" ISTPs that something was off.

Originally Posted by Slugabed

I just want to add some comparisons between functions on mbti and socionics:

Si on Socionics is related to immediate environment. The subject on the present outside and inside their bodies.

Si on Mbti is related to past experiences(memory,feelings,history), values and protection of the familiar. It is highly "traditional".

Se on Socionics is confrontational and proactive. Criticism, expectations, rules, control, intimidation. Good appearance. Gritty personality. Military mind.

Se on Mbti focuses on present experiences and sensations from the physical world. Provides relevant data from the outside which can lead to spontaneous action (highly responsive). Curiosity of the world.

Si on Socionics is much more related to Se Mbti than Si I think.

Well the idea in Socionics is that Se is about external (but immediate, tangible, physical) demands of the external world while Si is about internal physical needs. The criticism stuff I don't think belongs to that unless you mean the thing about how Se types see it ok to impose the demands or views on others as to what's needed in this immediate physical moment instead of paying attention to people's subjective internal (physical) needs.

To elaborate on that more, Si is the subjective side of Sensing, that is, it's linked to the person's subjective needs in terms of reconciling what's needed in this moment here and now. Se is the objective side here, the way the external environment is in a tangible way is what creates the objective "demand" that then can get treated like this for everyone, not linked to such subjective needs. Make sense?

All in all, Se is still about external visible, tangible traits of objects in Socionics too, so it's directly related to sensations like in MBTI, but Socionics emphasizes how this has an objective side different from the subjective side of the sensation which MBTI fails to emphasize and so MBTI instead has a really vague and mixed up definition of Si. (Jung was also pretty vague on it... Though Van der Hoop as a jungian student wasn't bad at all with elaborating on Si in his writings.)

One more note. You say MBTI Se has the focus on sensations. That, if we go by Jung (and Socionics too, yup), is Si, definitely yeah, because Se (even by Jung) doesn't focus on the sensation as if the Se-dom was subject to the sensation. No, the Se-dom takes that proactive approach instead of being subject to it. (Quote from Jung: "Such a type -- the majority are men apparently -- does not, of course, believe himself to be 'subject' to sensation. He would be much more inclined to ridicule this view as altogether inconclusive, since, from his standpoint, sensation is the concrete manifestation of life -- it is simply the fulness [sic] of actual living.")

Ti on Socionics is ideology. Logical structures, principles, rules and order. Lifestyle organized. Military approach. Rigid and unchanging ideas. Social order.

Ti on Mbti is about logic, information, clarity, essence, analysis, examination and classification. Exact words to define things. Root out logical inconsistency. With Se it produces analysis of complicated systems and provides solution.

Ti in Socionics has the same stuff as what you said about MBTI Ti... but yes it adds the structured stuff that in MBTI would only be attributed to TJs. Because Rationality/Irrationality is properly defined in Socionics.

Though this gets more complex than that ofc lol. Suffice to say, MBTI works ok on the "four-letter level" or with very superficial function descriptions, but on the level of functions it isn't Jung-compatible let alone full compatibility with Socionics. The MBTI functions are kind of mixes of parts that got assigned to information elements in Socionics in a different way based on some systematic principles (the link below will explain some of that). It's just a bit more internally consistent system than MBTI on the level of functions. (Feel free to ask for clarification if you need to, well if you want more of this

language at all lol.)

Te on Socionics practical, direct, formal demeanor. Dry, matter of fact discourse, clarity of communication. Pragmatism. Technical ability, knowledge about a lot of topics. Practical knowledge to provide solutions for functional efficient lifestyles (often take an active role sometimes they delegate).

Te on Mbti is organization, schedules, efficiency, productivity, objectives. Logical explanations for actions, events and conclusions.

Yeah pretty much. Also see what I implied above about how facts/evidence are treated by Ti in Socionics, otoh Te will prioritize them over the inner conviction that you see, from your pov, as not aligned enough with evidence. From my pov, it's more like, you need to go by something to see how to treat facts of the outside world and this is aligned with reality well if the system is made refined enough.

But I've seen other functions descriptions on socionics that are different in some aspects from the ones above http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...s-by-Functions

...but at the end of the page they say that the source is www.sociotype.com so, who knows?

Its really confusing to trying to fit this two, it isn't even a compatibility on all the descriptions of functions.

Just for input.

That link is good, it's descriptions from http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...lements-Primer (Augusta's writings)

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