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Thread: Determinism vs Free will

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    Question Determinism vs Free will

    It seems like, and also in my experience, that determinists tend to be usually the "Causal-Determinist Cognition" (ILE, LSI, SEE, EII) group in the Gulenko's Cognitive Styles (http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...gnitive_Styles).

    And the people who tend to believe in free will tend to be the Vortical-Synergetic Cognition (ESE, SLI, LIE, IEI) group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vortical-Synergetic Cognition (ESE, SLI, LIE, IEI)
    Synergetics recognize the critical role of chance and free will in transitional moments of history. Synergetically-minded scholars frequently consider alternative historical outcomes. British historian Arnold J. Toynbee in particular, explored this twist on the course of ancient history—what if Alexander of Macedon did not die (pessimistic version), how would the world have developed then (optimistic version)?
    Or it could simply be the difference between static vs dynamic. Or there is not much correlation. But in my experience, it tends to fall in line with that trend. Statics tend to believe in determinism more.

    For example, Einstein was an ILE, as well as a determinist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dialectical-Algorithmic Cognition (EIE, ILI, LSE, SEI)
    Dialectical thinking best corresponds to the quantum-probabilistic worldview of modern physics. According to this paradigm, there are no immutable laws, only tendencies and probabilities. Quantum Mechanics is built on the counterintuitive principle of particle-wave duality, according to which microcosmic objects behave as particles and as waves. Two of the 20th century's greatest physicists disputed over this view—Albert Einstein and Neils Bohr. The former defended causal-determinism as the nature of the universe, the latter advocated a probabilistic ontology. In the aftermath, Bohr won. Though apart from its historical context, the dispute makes little sense, given that these cognitive forms are dual to one other. Jung's principle of 'synchronicity' also lies within the Dialectical paradigm.
    Quantum physics seem more like a Dynamic way of looking at the world, and counter-intuitive to Ti.

    Edit: Actually I'm starting to think that there's no correlation...
    Last edited by Singu; 01-31-2017 at 10:44 AM.

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    Another Determinist here! :~o (for the sake of helping with the invisible poll) I have a fear that I cannot think every thought or feeling, it feels limiting that I can't choose my own thoughts. I mean I can choose my own thoughts, but only the thoughts that fall in line with my total exposure to the world and information that I know, so I really can't decide how I think or feel. That's also why I have a difficult time blaming people for anything. Not even because of Determinism but because I assume that no one wants to be unhealthy it's just the environment sets them to be that way. Which is the least helpful or productive way to judge people really...

    I have a tendency to prize my imagination though in hopes of finding a thought that is far removed from reality so I can feel at least slightly original, but I can't do that either.


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    Hmm interesting... I do think that the majority of determinists tend to be Statics, and the majority of free will believers are Dynamics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehtaro View Post
    I gravitate towards determinism (hehe). I could see there being a static/dynamic bias for and against. I think it's also plausible it could be NeSi vs NiSe. I think most people have hardly given the issue thought though and are likely to be influenced by other factors such as upbringing, culture, etc.
    I think that sciences and brain sciences are also slightly tilting toward determinism, but I think most Dynamics types will say that "even then," there is a small chance of free will existing by bringing up things like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle or the randomness of Chaos theory (which is mentioned in the Gulenko's descriptions).

    As a "Vortical-Synergetic Cognition (ESE, SLI, LIE, IEI)" type, I just can't seem to imagine a world of determinism. It just confuses me and make me think "huh??". It's like I genuinely don't get it. I imagine myself more like in quantum physics... like I'm an entity that is vibrating and suddenly just jumps randomly to somewhere without any causal effects or explanations. I just don't move in an if-so-then way and I don't want to, I want to rebel against it. I don't want to move from A > B, I want to move from A > Y or whatever place I wish to go. It's all random.

    But ironically this seems to go counter with Ni's long-range predictions...
    Last edited by Singu; 01-31-2017 at 06:47 AM.

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    I feel more inclined towards free will. Whether it exists or not, we still act as though we have free will, so like, just give in to it lol

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    We just do whatever we think is best for ourselves according to the situation, while at the same time being influenced by emotions and other hidden biochemistral factors that can lead to less rational kinds of behavior. The only way our behavior could be completely predicted was if every particle in the universe was analysed, which will never happen anytime soon.
    Last edited by Muddy; 01-31-2017 at 04:24 PM.

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    I believe that all events in the universe are predetermined by its properties. But I also think that as subjective beings, we have the illusion of free will, and that it is still important to take great care with our decisions. Some people may have more free will than others in a way that we can observe, which is of course an issue for how society rehabilitates or punishes those who act contrary to the law. However, I am optimistic that people in general will try to act as best they can.

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    We're referring the philosophical idea of free will? The one saying that because everything which happens has a cause, we can't really have "free will" because our actions themselves are just caused by physical processes? And not, say, some people having high self-control or high desire for autonomy?

    If the former, I think the world is determined but I still think we have free will in a different sense of having responsibility. It's called compatibilism and I can talk about it if people are curious haven't heard of it. Not sure where that fits into your dichotomy. But I would say it's the best philosophical position!
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    We are all just atoms, ATOMS I SAY Free will probably doesn't exist. We do have some degree of control. It's just not clear how much. I don't think we're completely deterministic or have free will. The concepts are like comparing apples and oranges in my opinion. One is classical atomistic thought and the other dualistic thought, I think.
    Important to note! People who share "indentical" socionics TIMs won't necessarily appear to be very similar, since they have have different backgrounds, experiences, capabilities, genetics, as well as different types in other typological systems (enneagram, instinctual variants, etc.) all of which also have a sway on compatibility and identification. Thus, Socionics type "identicals" won't necessarily be identical i.e. highly similar to each other, and not all people of "dual" types will seem interesting, attractive and appealing to each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eye eyE View Post
    We are all just atoms, ATOMS I SAY Free will probably doesn't exist. We do have some degree of control. It's just not clear how much. I don't think we're completely deterministic or have free will. The concepts are like comparing apples and oranges in my opinion. One is classical atomistic thought and the other dualistic thought, I think.
    I think I can agree with that.

    Reminds me of some papers I've read before. I can't remember the exact article I read but this one might be related.

    https://campuspress.yale.edu/adambea...ci-1dmjagz.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eye eyE View Post
    We are all just atoms, ATOMS I SAY Free will probably doesn't exist. We do have some degree of control. It's just not clear how much. I don't think we're completely deterministic or have free will. The concepts are like comparing apples and oranges in my opinion. One is classical atomistic thought and the other dualistic thought, I think.
    Maybe we are more than the sum of our parts though, after all we hardly know what consciousness even is.

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    I talked about this in the first chapter in my book
    www.spillovereffect.wordpress.com
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    -- Mark Twain

    "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
    -- Confucius

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    Well, I've always been on the side that determinism wins out.

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    I think a better correlation (if there is any) has to do with valuing +Ni. That is if the cause for believing in determinism is that we all follow god's plan. If what is believed instead is that everything is a succession of cause and effect, then it has to do with -Te. So following this, theoretically, Gamma NT's are the most likely to be determinists.

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    Choice is central to to heart, refreshing the table of balance with the outpouring of strength. By retreating into the mind more, we detach from external stimuli, and act under our own desires rather than those making us respond to a law based deterministic world. If we can be determined into action by our own force of character rather then outer impulses, then we become more free.

    Of course, God is the only completely free cause, as we are all expressions of his wisdom, his maelstrom of churning fates and destinies competing and branching ever further across the gale of chaos and soul.

    And with angels, we can pray to them, our simply contemplate them, and then new portals to other scales of spectra and probability unfold with music and snatching of rare events to make destiny unleashed outside the nexus of fringe fables. The storybook gathers all rabbits and crows to sing with the rhythm of the open road, how many rivers we had to cross before we found our way in a singularity of eye capturing display and snapshots of awe.
    Quote Originally Posted by BrightDemonSheep96 View Post
    ILI, lol? Video seems to depict Ni imagery (Ni<->Si). Yet you seem to have plenty of Ne that spins from Ni vacuum.


    The 24 INTP (<- that is Ni.)

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    I mean, I am a hard determinist. If free will exists, why don't I act freely?

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    Perhaps things are so determined, that even gravity is an illusion. What if the cup was going to break anyway regardless of whether or not we dropped it?
    Quote Originally Posted by BrightDemonSheep96 View Post
    ILI, lol? Video seems to depict Ni imagery (Ni<->Si). Yet you seem to have plenty of Ne that spins from Ni vacuum.


    The 24 INTP (<- that is Ni.)

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    Perhaps that gravity being an illusion or not is irrelevant. I don't know, can you ignore the illusion of gravity?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alomoes View Post
    I mean, I am a hard determinist. If free will exists, why don't I act freely?


    i think free will is limited by an underestimated extent by life factors.

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    I can understand the argument that we should act as if criminals have free will to keep society as stable as we can on the big picture level predict, but what if we really are in a computer simulation, or there is a master prophecy that, if fulfilled, leads to a perfect and ever revolutionary, radical, shape shifting and paradoxical future?
    Quote Originally Posted by BrightDemonSheep96 View Post
    ILI, lol? Video seems to depict Ni imagery (Ni<->Si). Yet you seem to have plenty of Ne that spins from Ni vacuum.


    The 24 INTP (<- that is Ni.)

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    One day, my brain gave me some flow of thoughts that ended with "determinism = free will" and that's it for me.

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    I don't think surface level belief in determinism vs free will (or any other belief really) is all that indicative of type. People's answers to these sorts of questions can vary so much throughout their lives that I don't think you'd observe a particularly strong correlation one way or the other if you could somehow gather enough reliable data over a long enough period of time to study it effectively. I think type reveals itself more in the reasons behind *why* people change their minds or come to believe what they believe rather than *what* they believe. I'll grant that the types in a vacuum probably have some innate tendency towards one mode of thinking or another, but since no one exists in such a vacuum the real world correlation is likely to be rather weak

    *OBLIGATORY RAMBLE WARNING*
    As for my own take, I think the question of free will vs determinism is a rather flawed one. It's like asking if a body gives its cells life or if the cells give life to their body. Both are equally true and the answer you come up with will vary in accordance with your purpose behind asking the question and what level of analysis you are looking at things from. That's not to even mention that causality itself only makes any sense to us because we are confined to a linear, one-way perspective on time. As far as the big picture goes I seriously don't think things are as linear as they look to us. Our universe is an infinite cycle of massive scale collisions between barriers of energy made up of large scale collisions between barriers of energy made up of human scale ones made up of tiny scale ones made up of collisions of an infinitesimal scale. All these bodies of energy are bouncing off of each other all the time - being influenced from the bottom up and the top down and the inside out and the outside in all at once forever and in no time at all because time's progression is only perceivable from our human perspective. Given all this I can't begin to comprehend how the question of whether human action is a product or a producer of will in the universe makes any sense at all. Of course anyone can see that our will is not *random* but randomness is a silly metric for freedom of will. Yes I *could* leap up onto a desk in the middle of a meeting and start peeing into my boss's mug, but the fact that the odds of me doing that are effectively zero is not sufficient reason to argue that the capability is absent. I am also aware of Benjamin Libet's experiments and the delay that occurs between the unconscious "deciding" and someone "becoming aware" of their decision to push or not push the button, but all this really shows to me is that decisions are associated with an increase in brain activity immediately prior to them being carried out and doesn't do anything to prove that such an increase *caused* the decision to be made. Ultimately I think things go both ways. Your decisions are influenced by thousands of factors every second, but you in turn manipulate how each factor is weighted based on your perception of those factors. Your awareness of something affecting your decision making can enable you to consciously bypass its influence over you. Isn't that really what typology is after all? Becoming aware of your weak points and those of others in order to avoid falling prey to easily avoidable mistakes? I don't know though, in the end I find the question too crude to be worth answering without first redefining it, and even then the answer becomes so complicated as to make it more of a fun thought experiment rather than anything to base your code of morality on

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    IF free will is real that means they are responsible for what they do, if free will is an illusion it means they can't help themselves, means we can't help them or more precisely its not cost-effective to do so and so putting "criminals" out of their misery is justifiable, especially since keeping them in jail costs resources & their bio-matter is useful fertilizer. if determinism is real, that means morality is irrelevant anyway and utilitarian pragmatism dominates.


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    free will is an illusion but u should at least pretend to believe in it otherwise ur not being a faithful servant to determinism & thats bad karma

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    Quote Originally Posted by capricieux View Post
    free will is an illusion but u should at least pretend to believe in it otherwise ur not being a faithful servant to determinism & thats bad karma
    sounds a bit claustophobic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    sounds a bit claustophobic
    Im a ne polr

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    Until a year ago free will, and i judged people that blamed the circumstances or some uncontrollable mental phenomena to justify their behaviour. Now I'd say this view was determined by my need to feel in control of myself and my future

    Now I'd say both? I think the world wouldn't exist the way it is without both states superposing themselves. Like the particle-wave duality of photons. We are both actors and acted upon, and exist through those interactions.
    I rarely feel alone. I rarely talk to anyone, yet in my head i have the most amazing, the most fantastic discussions with the people in my life. In real life, what most people talk about is several orders of magnitude lesser than their inner experiences. Most people never reveal the singularity of their subjective experience.
    Maybe I should learn to explore other people's consciousness. Maybe I should aim for a real space between me and others. Instead of cultivating monologues and fantasies. It's hard, but the alternative to this seems to be madness. ~ lkdhf qkb

    Life is soup. I'm fork


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    As a more Ti-focused vortical Ni type who’s studied some determinism, I guess it makes sense that I preferred the kind of compatibilism advocated by people like Wolf and Frankfurt (the latter less so). I didn't care much for the standard "free but limited" trope, but ideas like responsibility not needing to be based on explicit freedom and choice as constituted less by the constraints of the natural world than by what it means to make a rationally right/good decision, were pretty resonant.

    Personally I tend to think everyone has a horizon they can only see so much of at a given time, so the point is less whether they're literally free than if they're effecting a choice authentically.

    Anyway I don't know how much is type-related. I've known some vortical types (Ni or Si) who definitely seemed more naturally comfortable focusing on emergent patterns/processes than, say, some of the other types I've dealt with. But it’s not like every Se-ego waits around for a manual to experience things with.
    Last edited by strrrng; 04-18-2021 at 08:34 PM.
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    The game code, the random flashes of nerd rage, the cockpit of nasty trademarks, all of this card playing and out of order sorting of the chance cube shows a wand or lightsaber of different identities of self fulfillment we map into our psychology.

    The mind is so rampant, so giggly, tractor beam uplifting, that any test or experiment of major visualization uproar shows sides and grades to the island we never knew existed. The mind transcends all determinism.
    Quote Originally Posted by BrightDemonSheep96 View Post
    ILI, lol? Video seems to depict Ni imagery (Ni<->Si). Yet you seem to have plenty of Ne that spins from Ni vacuum.


    The 24 INTP (<- that is Ni.)

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    I don't think free will is a coherent idea but I don't think the only spectrum with determinism in it is determinism vs free will. I think there's some weird shit going on at a ground level that will probably reveal itself to be deterministic, but I'm not sure.

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    I remember when I was a kid, I used to set up really intricate lines of dominos all through my grandmas living room and through her dining room. Then Iíd knock them over and watch them fall. Itís really how I personally see life. Life, to me, Is a really really complicated lines of dominos and every domino is something being affected by something else and going on a certain path...that first domino toppling over is what started everything..but everything is working together to make something else happen.... So I guess you could say, no, I donít believe In free will, that I believe itís an illusion. That everything is already determined. But itís all so complicated all you can do is make guesses...sometimes you can be right and sometimes something can seem to come out of the blue that was put there by something way out of your field of sight, and the fact that you could see it or not...predetermined imo

    so I suppose you could say that Iím personally a hard determinist
    𝓽𝓾𝓶𝓫𝓵𝓻
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    Quote Originally Posted by aster View Post
    I remember when I was a kid, I used to set up really intricate lines of dominos all through my grandmas living room and through her dining room. Then I’d knock them over and watch them fall. It’s really how I personally see life. Life, to me, Is a really really complicated lines of dominos and every domino is something being affected by something else and going on a certain path...that first domino toppling over is what started everything..but everything is working together to make something else happen.... So I guess you could say, no, I don’t believe In free will, that I believe it’s an illusion. That everything is already determined. But it’s all so complicated all you can do is make guesses...sometimes you can be right and sometimes something can seem to come out of the blue that was put there by something way out of your field of sight, and the fact that you could see it or not...predetermined imo

    so I suppose you could say that I’m personally a hard determinist
    Ya, dominoes exist in such a fine chain, a rollercoaster continuum, an easily disturbed or unsettled sketch of parts and pieces across the clock. I like that one. Thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by BrightDemonSheep96 View Post
    ILI, lol? Video seems to depict Ni imagery (Ni<->Si). Yet you seem to have plenty of Ne that spins from Ni vacuum.


    The 24 INTP (<- that is Ni.)

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    I subscribe to a deterministic view, and I'd agree with @AWellArmedCat that it's important to think of why types would consider their view. At least for me, I just think it makes the most sense that everything is a product of their environment no matter how subtle. It's not that I want to wish away any moral obligation more than I just want the universe to make sense, so in terms of society I think it's important to 'lie' and push for position of free will so that people will still feel motivated to do their best. I'd hope there's a golden mean, so I looked into compatibilism as some have mentioned. Interesting stuff.
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    If we could create "consciousness in a lab", and we could predict that consciousness's thoughts, then we have probably failed to create consciousness.

    If you could predict people's thoughts, then we could say, predict the growth of scientific knowledge, which would mean that we should have access to future scientific technology. But we don't. And we can't. And even if we could somehow have future scientific theories, we have no idea what they mean, until we understand it for ourselves.

    So how do you account for the fact that some things are fundamentally unpredictable? And what is it about consciousness's apparent ability to make a "choice"?

    The current idea in "classical physics" is that as long as we can understand the "initial condition", then in theory we could predict everything afterwards. But ideas like consciousness would mess up the whole thing, because it appears that these things are not really related to the "initial condition". The reason why I put the coffee cup over here and not over there, is because I have made a choice within my own consciousness. And of course that it could have been either way. I could have put it over there instead of over here.

    The "multi-verse" view of quantum physics takes this into account, and say that there are worlds with both choices being made. It just happens that I'm in "this" universe where I have made "this" choice over "that".

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    Quote Originally Posted by aster View Post
    I remember when I was a kid, I used to set up really intricate lines of dominos all through my grandmas living room and through her dining room. Then Iíd knock them over and watch them fall. Itís really how I personally see life. Life, to me, Is a really really complicated lines of dominos and every domino is something being affected by something else and going on a certain path...that first domino toppling over is what started everything..but everything is working together to make something else happen.... So I guess you could say, no, I donít believe In free will, that I believe itís an illusion. That everything is already determined. But itís all so complicated all you can do is make guesses...sometimes you can be right and sometimes something can seem to come out of the blue that was put there by something way out of your field of sight, and the fact that you could see it or not...predetermined imo

    so I suppose you could say that Iím personally a hard determinist
    The problem of determinism is that it takes away responsibility from mankind and puts it in the "because determinism" category. How can we justify punishing offenders when they were predestined to offend, rape, kill etc.

    I feel on an instinctual level that we DO have choices to make, regardless of the situation we were put in/put ourselves in. Those choices can be good or bad hence we can also punish and reward human behaviour. Its too easy to say "i raped that woman because I was born this way"
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    As always the truth is somewhere in the middle. There are things in life we obviously do and dont have control over. Its not one or the other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    The problem of determinism is that it takes away responsibility from mankind and puts it in the "because determinism" category. How can we justify punishing offenders when they were predestined to offend, rape, kill etc.

    I feel on an instinctual level that we DO have choices to make, regardless of the situation we were put in/put ourselves in. Those choices can be good or bad hence we can also punish and reward human behaviour. Its too easy to say "i raped that woman because I was born this way"
    Well, I don’t think we would have to justify it. It’s kind of just like shit happens kind of thing and it sucks. And if they are able to be rehabilitated, that capability they have is predetermined too. Free will does sound nice, and I think it gives people a feeling of control.

    But it’s hard saying one way or another. maybe it’s too big and complex for our monkey minds to grasp fully that’s what I usually always find myself thinking with these things. someday maybe someone will figure it out, and I know it won’t be me
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    Our minds can connect to real esoteric truth, to a command lab or sniper of spectral ranges as the choice candle responds with echo and snatching of life energy to show us the shatter-points where breaking the Macroverse skyrockets earth up to the next bastion!!
    Quote Originally Posted by BrightDemonSheep96 View Post
    ILI, lol? Video seems to depict Ni imagery (Ni<->Si). Yet you seem to have plenty of Ne that spins from Ni vacuum.


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    I guess I'm a free will advocate. I have so much free will, fact, that I kind of want to in principal argue that IEIs can believe in determinism more just to prove you wrong even though you probably are right that IEIs like free will lol.

    I've always liked free will - even in the cases when it's been a personal detriment to my own life (to a point of course - I have over the years learned to be a bit craftier in my trolling lol) - because it proves there are things about me that can't really be controlled by outside sources no matter how much they try. Even if they can control me physically (which isn't that hard to do really, cuz of my shitty 1D Se lol), my mental control and certain freedoms of what I think and say is still very much in tact. I am very rebellious- and that pisses a lot of people off. So sometimes I do something I know I shouldn't- just to prove to somebody that free will exists and they have no power over me (which just makes them mad though- and then they try to 'punish me' with Te or something) The thing is, I don't personally even believe or care much or have much 'skin in the game' as some people said when I fight for these contradictory ideals just because I value free will so much - and tbh if people are smart, even if they are against me- they usually understand that- and leave me alone somewhat because of that I've noticed. It's also why IEIs make good diplomats.

    I have a hard time feeling strongly about a 'cause' as I naturally see the opposite sides and sort of agree with that POV too- so like I have seen both EIIs and IEEs/a few LSEs feel kind of 'so sure' about something and like this fervency ... with some things and I'm just like 'eh.'

    I think ... fate might be too boring/generic in a way. It's like something everybody can see coming so much that there's nothing much to it. There's no 'adventure' in it- it's all scripted, and that is too boring for people. People want the script to be flipped, exploded, bombed up- for real animalism to appear in some ways- even if in the end it's an illusion and the knight in the story will turn out to be right and 'true' after all, or whatever.

    The dark side of free will is obvious enough. "If we give people too much free will, they will just ignore their moral responsibilities and eat babies all day. This cannot be!"

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    This cannot be my destiny!, says Mewtwo, cutting the cords of negation in a clone armor asteroid, then striking the thundercloud of true will.

    Life - the great miracle, and - the great mystery. Free will arms us with the potency and magic to cheat the gizmo of programming and indoctrination. I build My house on he rock of knowledge rather than the sand of cultural paradigms like education.
    Quote Originally Posted by BrightDemonSheep96 View Post
    ILI, lol? Video seems to depict Ni imagery (Ni<->Si). Yet you seem to have plenty of Ne that spins from Ni vacuum.


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    Determinism says that our behavior is based on genetic and environmental factors, which says that these factors are impossible to change. I do believe that behavior is based on genetic and environmental factors, but that our own brain and willpower can triumph over these factors. Free will is very much a thing, we can overcome genetic and environmental factors to become our own selves. This process can be hard, but not impossible to do. Determinism is for those who let others decide their fate for them, who go with the flow and who do not question anything. However, most good things in this world start with a question, forms into a hypothesis, and is tested in the real world, eventually becoming a finished product. If we do not attempt to have free will, we will never advance as humans, never reach our full potentials, if we believe we can do no better than what we can do right now, if we cling to false nostalgia and sentimentality, if we have a fixed mindset instead of a mindset of growth.

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