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    Default Delta and "Tall poppy syndrome"/envy

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki "The tall poppy syndrome"
    The tall poppy syndrome is a culture where people of high status are resented, attacked, cut down or criticised because they have been classified as better than their peers.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki "The Law of Jante"
    The Law of Jante is the description of a pattern of group behaviour towards individuals within Scandinavian communities that negatively portrays and criticises individual success and achievement as unworthy and inappropriate.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante


    Quote Originally Posted by DELTA QUADRA - THE COMPLEX OF CLIPPED WINGS
    For Delta Quadra, especially intuitive types, it could be painful to witness the intellectual, spiritual, moral and professional superiority of others - due to which he wishes to humiliate them, the more so the more this turns into real successes and advantages for them. Envy towards the success of others - is one of the most widespread manifestations of the Delta Quadra complex of "clipped wings": the fewer personal successes, the more ambitions and the more jealousy is aimed at the successes of another (the feeling of personal loses needs to be compensated for somehow).
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya

    Interestingly, these tendency of feeling jealousy and envy toward exceptionally successful, smart, talented, etc individuals are present in the countries that I've listed in the Delta countries thread. Delta will try to cut down those who are seen as exceptionally successful or gifted in some ways. They also don't like much competition, so they will try to be more "egalitarian" (but this "egalitarianism" has more to do with "being their own masters" than being just and fair). Businesses also tend to be highly regulated and stifled so that they serve the society's needs more. Being rich and excessive materialism are also somewhat discouraged.

    This is something very annoying that Deltas do:

    Quote Originally Posted by DELTA QUADRA - THE COMPLEX OF CLIPPED WINGS
    The ability to incline others to make concessions while not conceding themselves - is one of the greatest victories of Delta Quadra. Slogans: "Think about others!", "Yield your rights to another!", "Give up your privileges for the benefit of others!" - turn out to be that very same measure that curbs the rights of others, allowing the Delta "controller-mentor" to act in full swing, to the maximum of his strengths and abilities, to the full extent of his potential, while he himself remains free from any possibilistic limitations. By controlling and subordinating others, he obeys no one himself - nothing binds and chains his own creative initiatives and plans, nothing hinders the growth of his ambitions and the creative flight of his imagination.
    Last edited by Singu; 01-30-2017 at 10:38 AM.

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    The tree of the balance of power must be continuously watered with the blood of the mighty. The strong should fear the weak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratiyevskaya
    For Delta Quadra, especially intuitive types, it could be painful to witness the intellectual, spiritual, moral and professional superiority of others - due to which he wishes to humiliate them, the more so the more this turns into real successes and advantages for them. Envy towards the success of others - is one of the most widespread manifestations of the Delta Quadra complex of "clipped wings": the fewer personal successes, the more ambitions and the more jealousy is aimed at the successes of another (the feeling of personal loses needs to be compensated for somehow).
    This is so ridiculous, it is very far from Delta motivations. If someone essentially doesn't care about success in the first place why would they be jealous of others' successes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    This is so ridiculous, it is very far from Delta motivations. If someone essentially doesn't care about success in the first place why would they be jealous of others' successes?
    First disclaimer, there are plenty of Deltas I like just fine. Second disclaimer, my perceptions of Delta may be skewed.

    Living among a lot of Deltas, what I found was that they were turned off by the idea of success for the sake of it. Everything seemed more framed as a contribution to society or to good quality livin', and if a person were a success at doing that, it was proof of good character or something. Although this dynamic exists across all quadras in the form of the just-world fallacy / hypothesis, I found it to be especially strong among the particular Deltas I knew well.

    The Delta NFs were more watchful of and attuned to jealousy or envy than I was. I don't think about those things much, but on various occasions I was advised by a Delta that someone was jealous of me, that I was jealous of someone, or was treated in a way that I could only interpret as "Apparently this person (Delta) is jealous of me?" -- which was something I found confusing.

    So Strat's description may be odd (I don't take much insight away from that article), but maybe there is something to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    turned off by the idea of success for the sake of it
    Amen.

    Success is for betas.
    Deltas are so incredibly average that people look at us and go, "Wow, they are so successful at being successless. What a relaxing life." Then we get promoted because we're doing so well, and our lives are ruined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    If others are successful... I'd say good for them.
    More seriously: everyone should be successful. But being successful at emptying the dishwasher and being successful at running a large company are both successes, and I'd say kudos to either one but make a fuss about neither.

    It's only if people act like they're above others just because they're successful at a fancier thing that it gets irritating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    @Director Abbie, success per se isn't a big motivator for me, either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    This is so ridiculous, it is very far from Delta motivations. If someone essentially doesn't care about success in the first place why would they be jealous of others' successes?
    It is very Delta, and they do care about successes (Ne - to be perfect). It's just that outwardly, it could be suppressed like acting "humble" or "rising above competition" (but having moral or intellectual or spiritual superiority). Deltas primary motivation is perfectionism and constant self-improvement. Fi in this case is about controlling others behavior through moral judgments so that they themselves are not controlled, and also to check on others successes and ambition.

    I also relate to it somewhat, but I don't really care about successes of others. If others are successful... I'd say good for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    It is very Delta, and they do care about successes (Ne - to be perfect). It's just that outwardly, it could be suppressed like acting "humble" or "rising above competition" (but having moral or intellectual or spiritual superiority). Deltas primary motivation is perfectionism and constant self-improvement. Fi in this case is about controlling others behavior through moral judgments so that they themselves are not controlled, and also to check on others successes and ambition.

    I also relate to it somewhat, but I don't really care about successes of others. If others are successful... I'd say good for them.
    I personally want better quality of life. LSEs comment on jealousy and I don't really pay attention to that as I don't really pay attention to much hahaha. I want to be successful in a trade that's well suited for me or a business that I engage in because I want it to be sustainable for the long haul and last (be solid).
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    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
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    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

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    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    First disclaimer, there are plenty of Deltas I like just fine. Second disclaimer, my perceptions of Delta may be skewed.

    Living among a lot of Deltas, what I found was that they were turned off by the idea of success for the sake of it. Everything seemed more framed as a contribution to society or to good quality livin', and if a person were a success at doing that, it was proof of good character or something. Although this dynamic exists across all quadras in the form of the just-world fallacy / hypothesis, I found it to be especially strong among the particular Deltas I knew well.
    Yes that makes a lot more sense.

    The Delta NFs were more watchful of and attuned to jealousy or envy than I was. I don't think about those things much, but on various occasions I was advised by a Delta that someone was jealous of me, that I was jealous of someone, or was treated in a way that I could only interpret as "Apparently this person (Delta) is jealous of me?" -- which was something I found confusing.
    You could say jealousy is an Fi theme I guess. It's more like FiSe though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    It is very Delta, and they do care about successes (Ne - to be perfect). It's just that outwardly, it could be suppressed like acting "humble" or "rising above competition" (but having moral or intellectual or spiritual superiority). Deltas primary motivation is perfectionism and constant self-improvement. Fi in this case is about controlling others behavior through moral judgments so that they themselves are not controlled, and also to check on others successes and ambition.
    Sorry but I can't agree with that. "to be perfect" is Ganin's "Hidden Agenda" terminology. In my experience Ti and Ni are far more linked to perfectionism than Ne. Self-improvement is an NeFi theme, but it is essentially pragmatic and gradual self-improvement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Sorry but I can't agree with that. "to be perfect" is Ganin's "Hidden Agenda" terminology. In my experience Ti and Ni are far more linked to perfectionism than Ne. Self-improvement is an NeFi theme, but it is essentially pragmatic and gradual self-improvement.
    Yeah, and ESXjs are the "keeping up with the Joneses" types.

    When it comes to perfectionism, I don't think that anyone can match the Deltas, especially the J types. When it comes down to it... they are brutal. And I don't mean perfectionism in this or that like "making the perfect system" or "making the perfect art", but it's their entire lifestyle, how they want to be viewed by others and society, their mode of operation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    Living among a lot of Deltas, what I found was that they were turned off by the idea of success for the sake of it. Everything seemed more framed as a contribution to society or to good quality livin', and if a person were a success at doing that, it was proof of good character or something. Although this dynamic exists across all quadras in the form of the just-world fallacy / hypothesis, I found it to be especially strong among the particular Deltas I knew well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    It is very Delta, and they do care about successes (Ne - to be perfect). It's just that outwardly, it could be suppressed like acting "humble" or "rising above competition" (but having moral or intellectual or spiritual superiority). Deltas primary motivation is perfectionism and constant self-improvement.
    I agree with this in general and a lot of the Stratiyevskaya article resonated with me as well. Deltas love to lay claim to moral or intellectual or spiritual superiority, while eschewing other forms of success as 'not good enough' and keeping their material successes private because they view being humble as morally superior to bragging all while, I'm sure, still hoping that their successes will come to light and regale the people around them.

    Reading "The ability to incline others to make concessions while not conceding themselves" section was interesting. I remembering reading somewhere that Stratiyevskaya was Delta (IEE specifically) but if they aren't, I wonder if that's how our actions appears to other quadras. I've never thought about the way that I navigate morality like this. There's a gradient of what I consider important/not important, and it's a factor in deciding how close I'll get with someone, what I'll speak about with them, etc etc. As each invisible subunit of moral conscientiousness gets more important they get more and more uncompromisable, so depending on the situation I might chastise someone on its grounds mostly because it's somewhat painful to not do so, especially when the action I'm chastising involves me or someone else being hurt. While it is important to me that I don't hold anyone else to something I don't hold to myself it's also true that I won't concede to someone else's reasoning if I don't agree with it - maybe this is what they mean by enforcing but not willing to compromise, idk. But I also hope that others don't fold to my moral reasoning unless they agree.

    As for jealousy, I don't get jealous when people who I think have more raw ability in whatever than me attain more success than me, but I do when it's people who I have had close personal contact with and who, as a result of that close personal contact, I perceived as lesser or equal to me in raw ability, which has to do with our ability to achieve our respective potentials.

    I've never thought about the concept of perfection but seeking to improve myself for improvement's sake is an ideal that I have.

    The Delta countries was also gr8. My reference for Japanese media is only a few movies and shows, but I can think of more than one instance in which characters are metatextually admonished for having Tall Poppy Syndrome/wanting to achieve more than what the narrative thinks they deserve and are put in their place.
    Last edited by yifflord; 02-03-2017 at 04:56 AM.

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    It describes motivations/complexes more than cognitions so the enneagram is taking other here. All of this applies to 4 and 3 topics.

    Personal perspective: I attack people of high status by questioning their skills and competence. Famous quote of mine: "Your authority means nothing, only your talents and deeds." The material sort of resonates with me but my envy is more controlled or eradicated when I see the responsibility that comes with high ranks.

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    So basically... Deltaness can be summed up with more "egalitarian", social-democratic models in politics where businesses are highly regulated, income distribution are kept as balanced as possible and everything and everyone should serve the needs of the society before their own. People say that it's all leftist, liberal, socialist, blah blah blah... but it's not. It's Delta. "Conservatism" has little to do with being laissez-faire and pro-competition and pro-deregulation (but there are still going to be some differences in the left-right side, but I think the basic principles will be similar. It's about stability.).

    Interestingly, this model creates one of the most balanced and stable societies, where income distribution disparities are kept at minimum and crime rates are low, like in Scandinavian countries and Japan. It goes in line with Delta wanting to create stability where they are free to do whatever they want and pursue their goals. But these societies are not without any tensions, because there are so many moral judgments within so that people are kept from acting the way they really want, and everybody is complaining and criticizing each other, and everybody is dragging the other down because of jealousy. The price to pay for stability is the lack of complete personal freedom. It seems like Alphas and Gammas create more free and liberated atmosphere, like in the US for example.

    Not that I disagree with this model, but it's not without problems.

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