What Cassandra calls "passive-aggressive" is not passive at all, it's just plain aggressive. And that she doesn't do, she is more passive. haha. She just got the word wrong I think.
What Cassandra calls "passive-aggressive" is not passive at all, it's just plain aggressive. And that she doesn't do, she is more passive. haha. She just got the word wrong I think.
I know but that came to my mind first
Yeah you made it very clear, that was my expectation of how IEIs would rank Fi users before reading your postWhy did you think it would be like that?
I thought I made it rather clear that I have had the most issues with the Fi of Fi lead people...
Let me guess -almost all people on this forum are Fi-valuing in your opinion? And there's close to zero Beta NF's around you irl or among celebrities? You mentioned having same problems and running away from other online communities before and not having any friends irl. Maybe it's you feeling alienated from the whole world and having problems coping and relating to people, not the whole world being Fi valuing.
You could have pointed that without getting so worked up about it
what about your angry comments? don't you think they disrupt the emotional atmosphere?No it's actually the way you spin things upside down to your advantage. This is what I could eventually call by disrupting positive emotional atmosphere.
Fe is also about dramatic emotion, not just being pleasant and polite. It's transmitting emotional state to others and being effected by others emotional state. The PC police is usually Delta NF ftr.
IEIs naturally conceptualize the people around them in terms of the emotional energy that they give off, and the way that they interact with the mood and energy around them. They are often especially sensitive to how others around them react to their own energy.
IEIs are generally very sensitive to the emotional atmosphere around them. They are often good at recognizing and influencing the moods of others, and at communicating the depth of their feelings or experiences. They tend to be adept at reading the reactions that others have to them and are often quick to make use of emotional cues in interaction. They frequently feel a need to look after the mood of those around them, and characteristically seek to awaken or innerve others' emotional energy. They may exhibit a propensity for good-natured, friendly, lighthearted banter and try to promote good will and inclusiveness. On the other hand, IEIs can also direct their emotional influence through a mode of expression that limits their affable levity; they may take on a formal, toxic, serious, or even shock-jock emphasis as situations require.
IEIs may feel the need to express the nature of their inimitable mental landscape and insights, and may feel a greater calling to make a difference in the lives of others. This is often manifest by championing intellectual, moral, social, or personal causes. IEIs may feel strongly about these types of causes and some may expend considerable effort towards expressing their avidity towards them, even posing toxic criticism to those that do not share these deep moral callings. However, many other IEIs may lack the impulse or motivation to take this type of action at all.
The emotional energy of IEIs can sometimes appear restless, moody, or gregarious, but much of the time it is inwardly-focused and self-contained. IEIs are often highly introspective and often have a rich and vibrant array of emotional experiences, which they may dwell over and seek to display to others.
FTR, I don't think Perse is angry at all. It's just that some IEI here are a bit older and have way more experience to draw on. I mean if anything maybe she is just trying to help a sister out. hahah <-- I am so going to hell...
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
I can say with complete honesty that I feel she is a much better person than I will ever be. She is awesome, talented and compassionate. I feel humbled every time she shows me, me, through her eyes. I love my whole family so much. No matter how dysfunctional we may have been, or still are, I see them as perfect for me. I wouldn't change a thing about them. I didn't always feel like that though. It evolved.
Oh and when you responded to this, I read it again and finally cried. The first time I was just teary. I was kind of mean to her sometimes when we were kids because I was jealous. BUT, I was also protective of her because we were all we had for several years and I had to look out for her. <3
Last edited by Aylen; 12-30-2016 at 05:42 PM.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
How does criticizing someone's logical reasoning and pointing out holes in their theories makes someone personally offended? That makes zero sense.
All ethical types are prone to being more subjectively emotional and more easilly hurt than logical types, duh. Being never emotionally hurt and offended is a sign of logical types, not Fe types What, if you say to an ESE she's ugly and her cooking sucks, she'll just remain cold-blooded and rational as an LII??
So for Cassandra claiming nothing offends her(which is bs anyway imo) to prove she's not Fi , that's actually unusual for IEI or any ethical type. I've also no idea where does the idea comes from Fe girls are nicer than Fi girls. If anything, they're cattier on the outside (because they're more actively trying to influence the emotional state of the person they're offending).
Fi people are more offended because of their their values and ethics close to their heart, not just any old thing. Disagreement, conflict and being annoyed by someone or their opinion are not Fi, my god
well at least her first post has some degree of anger or upset
tbh, I don't get why people take things personally < maybe this is why many people think I don't have emotion, but it is just I try not to be emotionally attached to unnecessarily stuff
being older doesn't mean you can write aggressive postsIt's just that some IEI here are a bit older and have way more experience to draw on. I mean if anything maybe she is just trying to help a sister out. hahah <-- I am so going to hell...
Nooo, you misunderstand what I am saying. This has been brewing for months. If you were around more (you must have a life) you too would see the underlying tension that has been building. Wish I had the ability to make a flowchart of events that would satisfy your Te but I think you have pretty much formed an opinion here so it wouldn't matter. Let them work it out like adults.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
I'm bored
edit: okay i dont know why it makes 2 spoilers
Fe valuing types are as judgemental, grudge-holding, taking things personal and easily offended as Fi valuers as obviously shown in this thread.
Bored again
Last edited by maniac; 12-30-2016 at 04:28 PM.
It's my way to structure texts, I did not work it up in any particular way tbh.
No actually I haven't been angry maybe sounded a bit dramatic in my way of expressing myself by trying to get understood.
Overall you are not aware of the underlying dynamics so I don't blame you for reacting of a sort.
For the rest you are now participating in our bloody pool of distruption, welcome
No particular aggressiveness was intended though For taking things "personally", again you are not aware of the dynamics. I am lazy to track it down also don't want to drown into the negative. Maybe you could leave this between me and Cassandra after all.
Because before being that or this, they are humans and like anyone else have feelings, whatever they are.
At least this thread wakes the forum up from the lethargy which is pretty cool
Ah all pepple habe feelings ... what a wildcard to have in hand in an discussion.
This thread is pretty funny, read somewhere fi types cant hide their emotions, show them in their face... When this is empasized for ESE in descriptions. People just assign the behaviour they dont like to the other party.
I said it and it is true for those I know well. I made the disclaimer of irl and also enneagram influenced. I was primarily talking about my EII sister. I was also talking about when they are triggered deeply by someone but maybe I should have clarified. I am sure she would agree that she can't hide her personal feelings when offended. My sister is going to leave before she plays nice with someone she feels is not a good person for whatever her reason. If she knows they will be attending the same event beforehand she probably would not attend though.
That was more in the past. She now makes an effort to resolve bad feelings and hold no grudges. She is an E9 sp/sx. I am leaning 469 the seeker for her again. She does not like her inner peace disrupted. She has changed a lot therefore so has my perception of Fi leads. I learned a lot here that helped me change that perspective. You didn't read the whole post I take it.
It may apply to ESE too. I can only say that because I have an ESE sister who shows everything on her face but her anger is never as strong as she would like people to think and for some reason she can't do bitch face at all. When she tries it just causes my EII sister and me to laugh which ends up making her laugh. My ESE sister could very well play nice with someone she didn't like to preserve the emotional atmosphere. She would talk about them behind their back too at the very same gathering. I don't fault her for that as she is not very confrontational and is so/sx 369.
I have posted before about how I used to see Fi leads and how my perceptions have changed since joining this forum. Actually, I am not afraid to hurt anyone's feelings since I no longer see Fi lead (or valuers) as just morality preaching, judgmental, grudge holders that don't care if they ruin the mood for everyone if they are hurting. They can't hide their feelings as well because it shows on their face. I used to see them like that but now I understand the differences and some of it enneagram related. I am not going to go into that though.
Extroverted Ethics (Fe, )
EIIs can become expressive and very lively in groups for brief periods of time, but they always gravitate to deep, focused communication between two people or a small, close-knit group. They tend to shun wildness and prefer serious, more sensitive communication.
EIIs are usually very straightforward about their feelings in front of others; what you see from them is what you get. Even at a party where everyone is supposed to be happy, they still find it hard to conceal their true feelings when they are in a bad mood. This can create distaste among the rest who feel that the EII is not cooperating by contributing to the positive and boisterous mood. This tends to lead others who don't know the EII well to have a misconception that he/she is a grouchy person by nature.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
- is about dramatic emotion, + is about being pleasant.
Types with -: SEI, ILE, EIE, LSI, SEE, ILI, LSE, EII
Types with +: ESE, LII, IEI, SLE, ESI, LIE, IEE, SLI
I bolded those types where their use of their "brand" of Fe would be the most obvious.
P.S: This +/- stuff is from Gulenko.
Not exactly, because they do not value it and it is Ignoring.
So when you have both types in the same room, IEIs will typically show + more than the ESI, especially if it is a general social context where both people do not know the others too well.
ESI can be somewhat goofy like an IEI when they know someone really well and feel comfortable with that person (or several). Other than that, because of their Ignoring (and being - lead which is rather "critical"), they often are pretty "cold" initially.
Hm, I think it makes sense in the broader context.
Again, the functions will determine how exactly that "stuff" comes out.
So at the end of the day, ESIs do prefer + over - , and when they use , it will typically be like + .
Of course ESIs predominately use - , so you won't see the + as often as is the case with + Ego or Demonstrative types.
That quoted comment kind of shocked me, too, but that's the beauty of this thread. It really does illustrate the differences between Fe and Fi-valuers. If if makes you feel better, @mclane, they'll be friends again in no time.
After my marriage to an SLI-Te fell apart, I chased an IEI for a while, maybe because she reminded me of an IEI aunt who loved me, maybe because she was smart and intuitive and beautiful and charming, IDK. But I was learning about socionics at the same time that I was chasing her, and it occurred to me that to be with her long term, I had the ability to suppress my Te and to emphasize my Se, but I absolutely could not reconcile the Fe-Fi divide.
P.S.
I should add that I really like the Fe shown by IEI's. It is one of their best traits. It makes them charming and pleasant (usually) to be around.
I may be new to this signs stuff but the list I got is different:
Types with -:SEI, ESE LSI, SLE, ILI, LIE, EII, IEE
Types with +: ILE, LII, EIE, IEI, SEE, ESI, LSE SLI
I think the lists you have are the right & left rings or is there different interpretation of the signs?
I'd normally agree, but there is the instance of getting everything you'd ever want at the low, low price of not getting it yourself. Moses wasn't very upset at his people getting their promised land with the minor caveat (among others I cannot recall at the immediate moment) that he'd never get to set foot in it himself. Jesus died to free everyone else from death despite begging the Father to pass his cup onto someone else... You get the idea. If you lack most selfish inclinations then, well, offer up your own life and get all your Christmases all at once. Dying horribly is but a small price to pay to ensure Utopia to everyone except yourself (who dies horribly as the price of it coming into reality).
The only good part about that story is that you chose to do it yourself. It's like the old philosphical question. Do ye throw the switch and run the fat fucker over to save three other thin people or do you let the three others die because that's what would have happened if ye had not noticed the dilemma. There is a third option, throw yourself upon the train to keep both groups alive. You die, yeah, but you also dodge one hell of a moral quandrantry. If one life must be offered up upon the altar to save many, the only offer you can make that keeps you free from any negative moral judgement in all conceivable ways is to offer up your own... Now THAT keeps the nihilists at bay as nobody can say that your death lacked any sort of meaning. You died to save em' all, anyone who knocks on that is just one hell of a fucking asshole at BEST!
Last edited by End; 12-31-2016 at 06:49 AM.
that "Fi types cant hide their emotions" speaks against Jung's Fi type.
Faced with anything that might carry her away or arouse enthusiasm, this type observes a benevolent though critical neutrality, coupled with a faint trace of superiority that soon takes the wind out of the sails of a sensitive person. Any stormy emotion, however, will be struck down with murderous coldness, unless it happens to catch the woman on her unconscious side - that is, unless it hits her feelings by arousing a primordial image. In that case, she simply feels paralyzed for the moment, and this in due course invariably produces an even more obstinate resistance which will hit the other person in his most vulnerable spot. As far as possible, the relation of feeling to the object is kept to the safe middle path, where passion and its intemperateness are resolutely tabooed. Expression of feeling, therefore, remains niggardly, and the other person has a permanent sense of being undervalued once he becomes conscious of it. Such, however, is not always the case, because very he remains unconscious of the lack of feeling shown to him, in which case the unconscious demands of feeling will produce symptoms designed to compel a more serious attention.
Since this type appears rather cold and reserved, it might seem on a superficial view that such women have no feelings at all. Such a view, however, would be quite false; the truth is, their feelings are intensive rather than extensive. They develop in depth. While an extensive feeling of sympathy can express itself in appropriate words and deeds, and thus quickly gets back to normal again, an intensive sympathy, being shut off from every means of expression, gains a passionate depth that comprises a whole world of misery and is simply benumbed. It may, perhaps, break out in some extravagant form, leading to some astounding act of an almost heroic character, quite unrelated to either the subject herself or to the object that provoked the outburst. To the outside world, or to the blind eyes of the extravert, this intensive sympathy looks like coldness, because it usually does nothing visible, and an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
Well, I am assuming the graph you have shown is about what Gulenko called the "spin".
It is simply a different way to look at the functions. Gulenko's current interpretation is rather about the "positivism" and "negativism" of IEs in the Reinin sense, more or less.
Here is a sample of how the IEs in their +/- "express themselves" in the specific Quadras. But note how for example for the Beta Quadra only the +Fe kind (of IEI and SLE) is being mentioned. The full description would also involve the -Fe kind, that is being used by EIE and LSI. So be aware of the fact this overview is incomplete.
I'd always trusted the model that gave an entire judgment/perception axis the same sign per quadra (if any type in a given quadra values -, then all types in this quadra also value -, while their perception functions (, , , ) are both positive). This setup I'm seeing here seems a bit arbitrary.
What's even stranger is the fact that we're taking signs of functions seriously. I'd always considered that a negligible detail and a simple emphasis on another single Reinin dichotomy.