Results 1 to 4 of 4

Thread: The Source of Instinct Stackings?

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    I sacrificed a goat to Zeus and I liked it
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Durmstrang School
    Posts
    2,845
    Mentioned
    164 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default The Source of Instinct Stackings?

    As instinct stackings come from enneasite.com, and its maker clearly knows nothing about Hindu philosophy, this isn't suspicious at all:

    "The four stages of life complete the four human strivings in life, according to Hinduism.[67] Dharma enables the individual to satisfy the striving for stability and order, a life that is lawful and harmonious, the striving to do the right thing, be good, be virtuous, earn religious merit, be helpful to others, interact successfully with society. The other three strivings are Artha - the striving for means of life such as food, shelter, power, security, material wealth, etc.; Kama - the striving for sex, desire, pleasure, love, emotional fulfillment, etc.; and Moksa - the striving for spiritual meaning, liberation from life-rebirth cycle, self-realisation in this life, etc. The four stages are neither independent nor exclusionary in Hindu Dharma."

    (from Wikipedia)


    Hmm, So, Sp, and Sx don't sound like Dharma, Artha, and Kama, respectively. These also feel way more well-defined than how the instincts are usually defined as well. For example, Sx can just be defined as "intensity" and Sp as "dullness" often but I dare you to say that after you read pretty much any description of Sx 9 and Sp 4 side-by-side :/ Sp is also often sort of conflated with but Artha doesn't sound particularly -ish. These descriptions also makes it clearer why the synflow and contraflow stackings are that. So/Sx puts a person's emotional fulfillment and sex into society, but with Sx/So they're using society for emotional fulfillment and sex potentially to its harm (the second instinct being flexible and only used towards the first). With Sx/Sp you're using things to be emotionally fulfilled and have sex, but Sp/Sx you're using emotional fulfillment and sex to get things. Sp/So is using society to get money, power, shelter, etc. but So/Sp is using money, power, shelter, etc. to be social.

    Any thoughts?

  2. #2
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    15,880
    Mentioned
    1505 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Verbrannte View Post
    As instinct stackings come from enneasite.com, and its maker clearly knows nothing about Hindu philosophy, this isn't suspicious at all:

    "The four stages of life complete the four human strivings in life, according to Hinduism.[67] Dharma enables the individual to satisfy the striving for stability and order, a life that is lawful and harmonious, the striving to do the right thing, be good, be virtuous, earn religious merit, be helpful to others, interact successfully with society. The other three strivings are Artha - the striving for means of life such as food, shelter, power, security, material wealth, etc.; Kama - the striving for sex, desire, pleasure, love, emotional fulfillment, etc.; and Moksa - the striving for spiritual meaning, liberation from life-rebirth cycle, self-realisation in this life, etc. The four stages are neither independent nor exclusionary in Hindu Dharma."

    (from Wikipedia)


    Hmm, So, Sp, and Sx don't sound like Dharma, Artha, and Kama, respectively. These also feel way more well-defined than how the instincts are usually defined as well. For example, Sx can just be defined as "intensity" and Sp as "dullness" often but I dare you to say that after you read pretty much any description of Sx 9 and Sp 4 side-by-side :/ Sp is also often sort of conflated with but Artha doesn't sound particularly -ish. These descriptions also makes it clearer why the synflow and contraflow stackings are that. So/Sx puts a person's emotional fulfillment and sex into society, but with Sx/So they're using society for emotional fulfillment and sex potentially to its harm (the second instinct being flexible and only used towards the first). With Sx/Sp you're using things to be emotionally fulfilled and have sex, but Sp/Sx you're using emotional fulfillment and sex to get things. Sp/So is using society to get money, power, shelter, etc. but So/Sp is using money, power, shelter, etc. to be social.

    Any thoughts?

    I would like to object to your description of sx/so as "using society for emotional fulfillment and sex", because it sounds bad. I would rephrase it to say, "Operates in, or casts a wide net through, society to select and form stronger and more personal relationships".
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 12-11-2016 at 04:22 AM.

  3. #3
    I sacrificed a goat to Zeus and I liked it
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Durmstrang School
    Posts
    2,845
    Mentioned
    164 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I would like to object to your description of sx/so as "using society for emotional fulfillment and sex", because it sounds bad. I would rephrase it to say, "Operates in, or casts a wide net through, society to select and form stronger and more personal relationships".
    Not as bad as Sp/Sx

    but yeah

  4. #4
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Spiritus Mundi
    TIM
    psyche 4w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    11,347
    Mentioned
    998 Post(s)
    Tagged
    42 Thread(s)

    Default

    The instinct stackings are not originally from enneasite.com so you might want to go back and do more reasearch. What you are suggesting has already been written about in at least one enneagram book, that I know of, linking the ideas.

    Not everyone is going to be comfortable looking at the instincts through the lense of religious dogma. The recognition that humans have these instincts does not have to be linked to just one religious tradition in this way since the recognition of primal drives are evident without a religious context.

    I see where this post is coming from since you recently stated sx first was just pleasure seeking.

    Are there certain primal (core), universal traits or drives which act as a kind of behavioral template for our species? Which give rise to and are expressed in terms of our basic individual and collective behavior? A biological version of the Holy Grail of Physics - Grand Unification? (In a word, a small number of natural drives or instincts that undergird and give rise to much of human behavior)

    In concert with Darwin, William James, E. O. Wilson, and innumerable others, I would respond with a resounding "yes". And like them, I believe that the origins of the "psychobiological template" were forged in the crucible of evolution.

    In June of 1998, the notion of fundamental or primal drives was big news. Researchers at Ohio State University conducted an extensive study and concluded that there are 15 desires which underlie most human behavior. "Nearly everything important a human being wants can be reduced to one or more of these 15 core desires, most of which have a genetic basis," said Steven Reiss, co-author of the study and a professor of psychology and psychiatry at Ohio State University. "These desires are what guide our actions. In a sense, we are studying the meaning of life."

    This body of research was published in the June 1998 issue of the Journal of Psychological Assessment.

    These are the 15 basic or fundamental human desires and values revealed by the Reiss et al study:

    Curiosity - desire to learn
    Food - desire to eat
    Honor - (morality) desire to behave in accordance with code of conduct
    Rejection - fear of social rejection j
    Sex - desire for sexual behavior and fantasies
    Physical exercise - desire for physical activity
    Order - desired amount of organization in daily life .
    Independence - desire to make own decisions
    Vengeance - desire to retaliate when offended
    Social Contact - desire to be in the company of others
    Family - desire to spend time with own family
    Social Prestige - desire for prestige and positive attention
    Aversive Sensations - aversion to pain and anxiety
    Citizenship - desire for public service and social justice
    Power - desire to influence people

    http://www.healingcare4u.org/3PrimalDrivesEssay.html

    Hindu Goals
    In today's lesson, we're going to tackle the four permissible goals of Hindu life. They are kama, artha, dharma and moksha. To do this in such a short amount of time will require some serious oversimplification of a very deep topic. Add to this the fact that most of the terms we're going to use are completely foreign to the Western tongue, and it's not hard to see how this lesson could get a bit hairy.

    In order to make this lesson easier to navigate, there are three things I'd like you to grasp:

    Hinduism teaches that the pursuit of these four goals is permissible. In other words, it's okay to want and seek them.
    Each goal is considered more important, or noble, than the previous goal.

    These goals traditionally apply to men only.
    With this in mind, let's get on with our goals.

    Kama
    The first permissible goal is kama. To put it simply, kama is pleasure, and it refers to the desires of the mind and the physical body. It is the human desire for passion and emotion. In other words, it's ok to love; it's ok to experience attraction and desire. In fact, the Hindus' god of love is actually named Kama. From this name comes the famous and very ancient Hindu guide to the physical expression of love known as the Kamasutra.

    Although kama, or pleasure, is a permissible goal, a spiritually maturing Hindu will realize it is not the end all to life. There is more to strive for. This brings us to our next goal, Artha.

    Artha
    Simply put, artha can be loosely translated as wealth and power, and according to the goals of Hinduism, it's ok to want these two things. In fact, the pursuit of them is considered noble since a person needs them in order to raise a family and keep a household.

    This is especially true for those who exist in the upper classes, or castes, of Hindu society. For them, artha, or wealth, is sought after in order to fulfill one's destiny. In other words, some were made to be rulers and kings; others were made to be beggars. Those who were made to be kings have every right to seek wealth and power. It's not just a noble goal; it's their duty and the best way to keep society in balance. If they are born into the upper ranks of Hindu society, then by all means, they can seek wealth.

    Unfortunately, the opposite is true for those in the lower castes of Hindu society. Although it is permissible for them to seek to provide for their families, they should not seek wealth as a means to move on up the social ladder. On the contrary, it is incumbent upon them to accept their low station in life as part of their duty or dharma.

    Although this idea of one's predestined role or duty is very foreign to those of us in the West, it's a huge part of the Hindu faith. In fact, this idea of duty, or dharma, is actually the next goal. Although kama and artha are permissible goals, they are not as significant as the fulfillment of dharma.

    Dharma
    Since the goal of dharma is probably the most alien to our Western paradigm, we'll spend a bit more time on it. To simplify, dharma means duty. It's sort of a set of standards by which a person should live. However, dharma can be very circumstantial and very personal. In other words, each person's dharma is different. Since this is rather confusing, let's use a tangible example.

    Most faiths hold to the idea that murder is wrong. Across the board, it's usually a no-no and would go against dharma. However, sometimes murder may be necessary for the greater good. For instance, what if a ruler kills a few people in order to avoid an all-out war? Although this is a rather violent argument on the use of personal dharma, it's a famous one taken right from the pages of the ancient Hindu story about dharma, known as the Bhagavad Gita.

    In this Hindu classic, a ruler's crown is challenged by rebellion. Since the ruler knew murder was wrong, he put down his weapons and refused to kill the rebels. However, the god Vishnu appeared and told him it was his personal duty, or dharma, to kill his enemies in order to protect his people and bring peace to his lands. Yes, senseless murder would go against the universal idea of dharma, but in this story, it was the honorable ruler's personal duty, or dharma, to kill. By killing, he was fulfilling his dharma or duty.

    Dharma is very central to the Hindu belief system; however, just the like the goals before it, it is not the end all! For the ultimate goal, we turn to moksha.

    Moksha
    Moksha is freedom from the cycle of birth and reincarnation. It's the prize at the end of the very long Hindu
    Last edited by Aylen; 12-12-2016 at 01:05 PM.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •