Are you well aware of your polr in daily life?
Are you well aware of your polr in daily life?
Last edited by Iwantpeace; 09-07-2020 at 02:11 PM.
Try to compensate for it as much as possible with your mobilizing function.
The only drawback of this approach is that the mobilizing function is not under conscious control. I do find it helps me out when it's ready to give me a result of its information processing and/or when my already existing Ni norms are enough to solve the issue but until then...
I'm aware of Ne polr insomuch as I hate hypothetical questions and coming up with contingencies. If something does not apply in the real world, and could not reasonably apply I often lose patience contemplating it. Nor do I enjoy having to come up with every possibility or remote outcome or every possible exception to a general statement. I will focus on a couple of the most obvious or likely possibilities and outcomes and ignore the rest. I particularly dislike being asked "What if" questions when they are completely ridiculous.
In situations that seem to call for Ne, I'm in agreement with the suggestion that you can cover for your polr with your mobilizing function, and will instead lean on Ni. So, since your functions are in the opposite arrangement, when you have to use Ni, instead you could substitute Ne and brainstorm multiple possibilities and contingency plans.
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Edit to expand and clarify:
I generally try to keep my answers to the point, but have found that some people misread or misunderstand what I'm saying. So I will expand preemptively.
Disliking hypotheticals does not mean I don't like any theoretical ideas. I can for instance imagine a fictional world in which time travel is possible and the rules that it would have to follow and get into a long discussion over this idea and how if one thing were true, another would have to also be true and what the implications of that would be, and how if that thing is true something else couldn't be true, and all the ins and outs of how it would work in this theoretical example. That's fun.
What I don't like however is someone asks a random question like, "What would you do if a purple gorilla stole your car?" I just go errr, what?
Disliking thinking of all the contingencies and possibilities means I don't want to have to consider all the other ways that someone could misinterpret what I've written, or a bunch more examples to illustrate my point. It also means that when making a decision I will often narrow or limit my options and find it exhausting when it's just too open-ended.
Last edited by squark; 01-18-2017 at 12:22 AM.
Heh, similar sentiments for the most part.
I'm a bit more extreme in that I don't really even try to come up with contingencies of that sort. I just quickly "envision" one course and I go on it. This is also a logically constructed path on the main logical points where something seems to determine the direction. E.g. if something is a prerequisite to something else, or something is less than certain or it needs to be avoided, etc. But these things are directly logical things. So as I said I get the course in my mind and then I go - I simply don't think of possibilities that "could" get in the way. This has its advantages and its disadvantages too, lol.
Then if I really envisioned it then I really really get set on that course and never look around in that case for more options, just going for the goal. Again it has advantages and disadvantages... Do you have this mindset to this extreme?
A note, for those "main logical points" I mentioned, if I cannot find out enough info on such a "point" in advance, I may have to have to add a plan B for that. But other than these very directly logically constructed paths/plans, I don't think of other contingency plans or whatever possibilities. There's not many of these "points", either.
As for theoreticals: what kind of theoreticals is meant by that? I'm perfectly ok with working with logical topics as long as the logic directly maps to reality, with enough concretely defined data, and it is very natural as long as I'm doing this for an actual goal. I can also study some abstract materials (like some maths or science stuff) purely to keep myself educated a bit, also have some interest in the logic of these things. These do count as theoretical in every sense of the word I'm sure. I do find it less natural spending time on that than on working for my real life concrete goals, a bit too much contemplating required for these topics so I spend a lot less time there, but the logical analysis can still be satisfying when I do make myself spend time on these things.
With general statements, I also prefer if there aren't annoying exceptions lol, yeah. If the topic is something I want, or have the need for some reason, to analyze further, I don't necessarily mind having to collect more concrete data to analyze to get to a more refined organization of things beyond just the original general statement. I do really have a strong need to do so for some of my goals. Still, I don't want exceptions in the refined system either, yeah. It'd take work to analyze them out and if there is no actual need for this, I would just go by the system as it is. So, perfectionism (of the analysis to take care of the exceptions) or practicality (ignore them while there are not enough realistic real life consequences), I go for the latter, yup. I mean, I don't think of possible exceptions much, but if someone brings them up, I easily ignore them if not realistic.
How do you cover for your PoLR with your Ni? For me, the course thingy is a good example. But if something is very new, I can't just call up Ni at will to try and figure it out. It only comes on its own later whenever it "wants" to. So I use other tricks to get by... How do you deal with that?
Ahh, nice preemptive expanding.I see you added stuff now.
So by theoreticals you just meant hypothetical whatifs with the purple gorilla stuff. Lol I don't care about the purple gorilla shit either. Same err what. Just don't ask me that.
Time travel... hm I wondered before about how it can be made logical. I kinda had some idea on that once lol. Also makes me think of some things in theoretical physics (no I don't know much about theoretical physics btw just some bits of basics). But I didn't imagine a fictional world, just the time travel idea itself. It does get very abstract at a point so I can't contemplate it for very long at a time (but I may come back to it later) but it's somehow enjoyable, I would think the Ni part of it.
Is it the rule generating that you enjoy in the discussion of the fictional world?
I totally relate to it seeming exhausting if something is too open-ended. My problem there mainly is locking onto options at all, to see them at all. No brainstorming ability here tbh. What I can do is either go by concrete logical routes or get more information, if applicable then also more experience by simply looking around more and just use a sensible way of picking something concrete and realizable. This is mainly for more shorter term topics/tasks/issues.
For more general life decisions, that's also typically open-ended topics, but there it's a bit different, for that I first want to envision (Ni) some things. It may take a while to work that out, though. But I definitely can't just contemplate random options there either.
Last edited by Myst; 01-18-2017 at 12:59 AM.
I want to add to this. I found that when I argue something with ILEs, they keep running around with their whatifs and then I'd have to shoot them down one by one, and the funny thing is that I didn't even realize for a while as to what was going on with these people. Nice waste of time it made for. But learning Socionics more helped me recognize it so I can end it easier now with them lol.
This would be the Supervision aspect specifically, I guess. With IEEs the argument derails into some shit really fast, tbh. At that point, if neither party has enough self-control then it can be an even worse waste of time than with ILEs.
Otoh, with my Identicals with the same Ne PoLR, the arguing doesn't go on for long usually, one of the parties will just stop soon after stating their view. I noticed I'm often the one who's able to continue a bit longer by trying to force myself to spend time with on-the-fly analyzing of the data put in from both parties. That's tiring tho' if there is too much new data, and then I'm better off if I just withdraw too and let the new updated conclusion (with better understanding) come later. If it's not much new data and so it just mainly requires making the logic (already existing in the head) more explicit, I can get on the same page after a bit of trying very neatly with the Identical partner.
Hm, it's definitely fun analyzing exchanges in communication with people on this level, that is, directly in terms of thinking.
Oh and I wanted to add to this too. With the fictional world, I'd have the issue that I want to first imagine how time travel can even be consistently logical on a neat low level because if that's not solved on a general level as the first step, I'd be disinterested trying to patch up holes here and there with whatever ideas for whatever rules when fleshing out the idea of that world. Also, I'd be unimaginatively just imagining it as our current world with the consistently logical idea of time travel added into it. (Assuming this is even possible without having to change something really fundamental...) I can't and won't change other things about this world as it is, in my imagination. With my non-existent creativity and instead with an overly logical imagination, I guess.Disliking hypotheticals does not mean I don't like any theoretical ideas. I can for instance imagine a fictional world in which time travel is possible and the rules that it would have to follow and get into a long discussion over this idea and how if one thing were true, another would have to also be true and what the implications of that would be, and how if that thing is true something else couldn't be true, and all the ins and outs of how it would work in this theoretical example. That's fun.
The only exception for my unwillingness to imagine a fictional world like that would be if I wanted to try and write some best seller sci-fi or something lol
In my experience, most people are unaware of their PoLR in their daily lives (to the point of blind ignorance, for they don't value it and would rather avoid it altogether), even people who know about Socionics – until other people point their weakness in that area out to them.
Those people who do are typically types that have the PoLR in their Ego, or they at least value the IE and "demand" it from you in some sense, but you won't deliver, and that brings tensions.
For example, someone recently asked me in which direction my train on the way home goes. I have been taking the same train for around 2 years now, and I couldn't remember the name of the direction. I never cared about that. I just said: "It is the train on the left." The train that comes on the left side when you walk up to the station. The other person was perplexed. I excused myself by saying "Sorry, I am tired", but in reality that wasn't the true reason. Then they asked me for my stop. I thought for a bit, and at least I remembered that, so I told them.
I wished conversations like that didn't exist. I find them irrelevant. I get it why someone would ask for things like that. But my mind naturally overlooks those things in favour of what I deem to be "greater" and more important or significant. Like, I know more about Socionics than the route of the train I have been taking for years, etc.
In other words, I am greatly oblivious to "normal" things and information, "common knowledge" that many people just know about. I strongly favour "specialized" or "niche" knowledge, I suppose. For example, a few days later I bought some water bottle, and the tag said a certain price, but I had to pay more than that. I told the cashier about the tag, and they just said that there is tax money or whatever, so it costs more than the price tag says. For some reason I didn't know (I blame Te PoLR), and I felt a bit stupid for a second, but I brushed it off – it doesn't truly matter, it is just a bit awkward. In my mind I told myself that she could think I am a tourist who doesn't know better. In general I feel like a "tourist" when it comes to normal life experiences...![]()
I edited my original statement shortly before you posted to clarify a few things.
Last edited by squark; 01-18-2017 at 12:41 AM.
Yes that helped lol. Curious tho', do you at all relate to me here: "then if I really envisioned it then I really really get set on that course and never look around in that case for more options, just going for the goal. Again it has advantages and disadvantages... Do you have this mindset to this extreme"?
(Not asking about this in detail.)
I suspect I can't actually tell, and more relevantly I don't care to.
In practice, what I designate as 'Si' is to focus on how eg: a pillow feels in terms of 'internal sense of comfort', 'how do I feel about this feeling?', instead of simply sensation on the skin (ie: raspy, soft, smooth, hairy, rigid hair, soft hair, wavy plastic, etc.) for the sheer discovery of it. The latter is interesting (and maybe even delightful, for a few seconds), whereas the former feels like a bad taste in your mouth, and why would you want to keep that in your mouth, so to speak? Ew.
I don't see the use of what I denote above as Si, either. I can tell quite accurately if eg: one joint is getting stressed and may get injured during sports, or the difference between 'appropriately tired', 'overly-tired and will injure myself', 'tired to failure', 'injured lightly, don't push it', etc. I presume this is from the latter, Se-HA.
Nonetheless, I have to be actively careful not to overtrain. I have a tendency to decide how much exercise I should do based on my idea of what I can achieve, rather than plausible goals for the workout session based on the previous workout. This leads to my doing extra press-ups for eg, such that I am sorely overtaxed for five days instead of fairly tired for two days. This is despite my *knowing perfectly well* that the problem exists, and usually *being able to tell as it happens* that I've passed the 'reasonable' threshold. However in the moment I find I don't really care.
Again, maybe I could develop 'Si', I don't know, but it feels unpleasant and annoying and just, why?
Disclaimer for potential mistyping, misunderstandings of theory, etc.
Reason is a whore.
EIE confirmedAnd in response to OP, I was entirely unaware of my PoLR until socionics. Even now, naturally, I avoid dwelling 'in' it, and can be quite hurt by statements like "why did you X?" "why didn't you Y?" "I told you to Z, you did something slightly different from Z, was I unclear?" and statements which imply that my behavior is a result of a (mis)calculated concrete logical analysis. If you reduce my behavior to logic and ultimatums then I seem like an idiot--in reality I don't make such concrete logical analyses and my motivations are either spontaneous impulses (which have no 'moral defense') or difficult to explain. However, this awareness does not make me want to improve my Ti, and in fact often I do not notice I had a 'PoLR-hit' until after the fact. Being restricted to systematic logic is contrary to my type's program, if you will, and 'improving' it is a misunderstanding. For instance, I actually excel at formal logic and enjoy playing devil's advocate almost as much as ENTPs--but it is always a spontaneous analysis of associations, not based on well-formulated categories. I imagine it is the same for every type, that their PoLR is something which would be counterproductive (if it's even possible) to focus on 'improving.'
Last edited by Nehtaro; 01-18-2017 at 06:55 PM.
Oh I see this now. Hm, it's strange to me that someone can find this hurtful if I ask such things like "why did you X?" "why didn't you Y?" "I told you to Z, you did something slightly different from Z, was I unclear?" O_o I mean, there is nothing personal against the person in these questions (from my part), no blaming or anything, it's just a request for information enclosed in reasoning. (Though there is also the argumentative version lol, but by default it's just a neutral request.) Now especially the last example... I would say it does matter a lot if I give someone detailed instructions yet they do something a bit different that ends up in different, quite unintended/undesired consequences. Maybe this can't always be seen from the xEE pov? But I would think in some situations it's really obvious even via Te HA or whatever.
I think PoLR Te is when you miss what which can be done in the present moment to be more efficient. It is like you have this idea of logic of how to approach things and when all these pieces of information is transfered back and forth you fail to recognize how this new piece can help you do your thing more efficient. It is a blind spot of yours. And when you learn about this in the future you can think it was pretty stupid of you to miss this obvious thing. Or you can continue to believe that it was a blind spot of yours. Or maybe it is not the point to be most efficient? Even when it can benefit you greatly from time to time.
Last edited by Tigerfadder; 01-18-2017 at 08:32 PM.
I was just mulling this over, I think it feels like information that's right in view but which I can't see because it doesn't fit into my mental conception of the universe. I was watching "Westworld." Lol. The androids, who think they are wild west settlers, are programmed not to recognize any images or speech that alludes to an outside world. They will look at a photo of cars and say "that looks like nothing to me." This feels like my PoLR.
I admit I haven't read every post in the thread, but I appreciated @thehotelambush's advice to compensate with the mobilizing function. I've found this is exactly what I do -- cover for my polr () with mobilizing (
). @Myst points out that it's "not under conscious control," but that doesn't mean you aren't using it and that it can't help.
I've had at least two people point out to me in chat that I am doing something-ish, and it's true I didn't know I was doing it. But I think I have increased my ability to use
by being around people who have
in their ego block (my father, an ex-bf, my husband, a close friend), and by learning to do things via both theory and practice that allow me to use
.
Another thing I think may have happened -- but feel free, anyone, to tell me this is bullshit -- is that having a couple of friendships with my supervisor (SEI) somehow helped me. What I suspect is that I am able to actually digestas they present it, and I seem to find something in my
inventory that corresponds to their
or that simulates or recreates it in
. So although I recognize how supervision can be touch-and-go, I've also found it valuable.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
I was talking about it in terms of PoLRs only.
It makes sense it would apply to Te Ignoring (and Ne Ignoring) too, to a lesser extent.
My point was that the suggestion of TRYING to compensate with the mobilizing function is not a suggestion I can really use. Precisely due to lack of much conscious control and due to the weakness of the HA function as well. 2D functions are pretty rigid really when needing to apply them in new situations. Part of that rigidity will be emphasized also precisely because it cannot introvert (for an extraverted function) or extravert (in the case of an introverted function) in cases where it would be extremely relevant to dealing with the situation efficiently.
Otherwise, I'm sure I stated in a few places in this thread things about how my Ni HA functions in place of the PoLR. Still cannot consciously force it much. And too much focus on the HA often really fucks up things even more for the PoLR heh. That's when the situation quickly needs PoLR-specific information; in some other cases not explicitly requiring PoLR-specific information, HA could cover for it with a delay, sure, in my experience, I mentioned this earlier. So yeah, so much for that suggestion... Hope I made it clear what I meant by this.
I've been developing Ni further, sure. Not sure if that happened by being around Ni egos more. Probably helped a bit, tho'.I've had at least two people point out to me in chat that I am doing something-ish, and it's true I didn't know I was doing it. But I think I have increased my ability to use
by being around people who have
in their ego block (my father, an ex-bf, my husband, a close friend), and by learning to do things via both theory and practice that allow me to use
.
I can't directly digest the Ne of ILEs. Now, the more Ti the ILE has, the better the communication will work but... at best they can make me go realize for a second that it's actually useful (sometimes) to widen the view of some topic but then I forget about that realization so quickly that it's embarrassing. (This applies to just Ne. Their Ti-reasoned ideas, I can pick those up as far as they are reasoned out with logic, of course.) Anything else is honestly gonna take years with me discovering it all the "details" of some of the Ne ideas through my own experience (own experience only, due to one-dimensionality of PoLR and the slowness of the HA compensating for it with delays only). That will obviously still be very limited with regard to practical usability since only own experience is used even if I amass a lot of it (relatively "a lot", anyway, a lot for PoLR, lol).Another thing I think may have happened -- but feel free, anyone, to tell me this is bullshit -- is that having a couple of friendships with my supervisor (SEI) somehow helped me. What I suspect is that I am able to actually digestas they present it, and I seem to find something in my
inventory that corresponds to their
or that simulates or recreates it in
. So although I recognize how supervision can be touch-and-go, I've also found it valuable.
All in all. Not worth the effort 99% of the time in my experience. Sometimes worth it for personal use. End of story.
Anyway... got an example of Se inventory stuff corresponding to the Si? Or whatever it is that you recreate of Si in Se. Until then I can't really make sense of what you were talking about there.
Last edited by Myst; 01-24-2017 at 02:22 AM.
I understood your point, so I tried to consider the indirect ways in which I have created a framework to allow my mobilizing to do more.
Don't have time today but will try to do this in future.Anyway... got an example of Se inventory stuff corresponding to the Si? Or whatever it is that you recreate of Si in Se. Until then I can't really make sense of what you were talking about there.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
I work in sales and how well you dress is apparently very important.
Being not perfectly shaved, having somewhat dirty shoes, going out with a non ironed shirt can be considered a mortal sin.
That's how I became aware of my Polr.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Thank god I don't work in the sales department in the place I work. One time one of the sales supervisors at my job rudely commented on how my pants were technically "dark blue" instead of the dress code black and I felt like knocking his jaw out. I couldn't ever imagine working as something such as a waiter in a high class restaurant that requires a lot of both Fe and Si, neither of which I'm too keen on using. I rather work some rough factory job or be sent in as a solider on the front lines then be forced to do that shit everyday.
Last edited by Muddy; 01-25-2017 at 02:57 AM.
I think I have been aware of my PoLR since Day One, because my SLI father is my Supervisor.
As a kid, I thought that the epitome of male coolness was the SLI Cary Grant. His accomplished Si was something I was terrible at, but wished I could do.
The subconscious awareness of my own lack of strength in this area affected my choice of marriage partner. I married (and divorced) a Supervisor.![]()
Omg @Cassandra that is so adorably naive that you are turning me heterosexual.For example, a few days later I bought some water bottle, and the tag said a certain price, but I had to pay more than that. I told the cashier about the tag, and they just said that there is tax money or whatever, so it costs more than the price tag says. For some reason I didn't know (I blame Te PoLR), and I felt a bit stupid for a second, but I brushed it off – it doesn't truly matter, it is just a bit awkward.
I'm Ne-polr:
I come up with ideas one at a time and not often, I got the brawn but not a lot of brains. I would rather work with my hands then come up with a scheme because the thought of coming up with a million dollar idea hurts my head. I'm not creative, I use will power to get out of jams, not creativity. I don't always see all angles in a situation and fall into a rut of a back and forth between panic and numbness. Ruts are an issue for me and the only way out is to physically do something, not brainstorm. Sometimes I don't make things happen because I think there are no solutions because the one idea I had won't work after all, and so I have to learn to ask for ideas and help.
LSI-Se 836 Sp/Sx
Ohh yeah, the last part, learning to ask for help, lol.
What are these ruts like, is it about not knowing how to move forward with something you want, or is this something else?
The only thing not familiar to me from your summary is the numbness/panic reaction. Oh also the brains thing, I think with Ti you do have brains enough, you don't need Ne beyond that lol
I agree with you on the Ti thing, but my wits are practical and organized, nothing like Ne power. I do use my brain a lot but I would rather use my body to make things happen, if I have to study for long periods of time my head feels exhausted and I have to run, jog, or shower to clear my head again.
The ruts I go through are like being stuck in the same routine, sometimes I will only do the bare minimum of my routine, like work and come home and run errands twice a week. I also deal with depression and I'm in recovery for alcohol and drug abuse so my brain is wired funny. My ruts feel like I'm trapped and it stresses me out.
LSI-Se 836 Sp/Sx
Yeah, I have the same problem with studying abstract materials. I can push on forever if I want to for some goal, like with anything else, but I do not feel at my best, it's mentally exhausting, my brain just isn't happy with it yah.
What fixes your ruts? I don't mind routine if I'm working towards some goal. If not enough of my day is filled with purpose in that sense then yeah, it can feel too... low/mundane. And then going out to do something physical fun aimlessly doesn't fix that feeling for me for long.
When I walk into an LSEs home and see that there's coordination in their style, that there's some theme or matching in color or design And I look at my own I find my Se polr screaming back at me and it becomes painfully apparent. I like to follow or let my dual lead in the sensory world so I like it when they take the lead and design the home in the fashion that they like.
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Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I don't think the violence thing is Se PoLR...
I think, except from Ti and Si, all other elements can be my PoLR. So, I'm not sure what to think you guys being very sure about your PoLRs.
Well, other weak functions can seem like a possible polr too. I think it is definitely easier to say what isn't a polr than what is because people don't typically spend much time thinking about weak and unvalued functions. It's also not always easy to be objective about yourself and seeing a polr at all in yourself, well it's often something you don't even notice. The first typing I considered for myself was actually LII which has Ne as a creative function, not the polr. It can take some time to sort it all out, and a lot of times people who are quickly very sure of their polrs are actually noticing another weak function instead.
Another interesting thing I've noticed is that sometimes people don't notice their strong functions either because they're just normal for them. Someone pointed out to me the other day how when you see someone saying how logical they are in every post that it's usually a give-away that they're actually an ethical type. And that is often true from my observations. Watch how people act and how they actually use language rather than just what they say about themselves and you'll often get two conflicting pictures.
Yup, I originally thought my weak Fi was actually PoLR. The difference is definitely there between Role Fi and PoLR Fi, though.
Unless they say they are logical in response to being asked to say what they are like, your observation could have some point to it. But if it's simply in that context, nope, I would not immediately assume that they must be an Ethical type lol.Another interesting thing I've noticed is that sometimes people don't notice their strong functions either because they're just normal for them. Someone pointed out to me the other day how when you see someone saying how logical they are in every post that it's usually a give-away that they're actually an ethical type. And that is often true from my observations. Watch how people act and how they actually use language rather than just what they say about themselves and you'll often get two conflicting pictures.
those definitions of Se PoLR don't make any sense? i've read numerous descriptions and threads stating that ESIs are unable to stand up for themselves appropriately because they're afraid of making a big deal out of a seemingly small offense, implying they're unable to gauge how much pressure they should apply on the offender. xSIs are infamous for their blowouts, but so are xIIs? what's the difference, then? does it have to do with their temperament?
i don't think the ketchup bottle effect theory works because it could apply to any introverted rational type, it seems. wouldn't a better description of Se PoLR be a complete and utter inattention to and/or disregard for underlying power dynamics? isn't Se PoLR the guy at work who gets up in the boss's face after years of putting up with his bullshit and telling him to go fuck himself? or the guy at tiananmen square? it's not a power play. if Ne is intellectualism and it exists on a plane independent from physical reality, it is living by your Ji principles/ethics and enforcing them, regardless of whose toes you step on, whether it's your boss or the president of whatever. it's intellectual integrity. i think it can be even better understood through Si HA. it could be described as an aversion to violence, sure, but not necessarily..
then again, i don't even know what my PoLR is. i just think the ketchup bottle effect theory makes 0 sense.