USA politics following Trump's election
It hasn't even been a week and a half since Trump was elected, and already so much seems to be happening or on the verge of happening.
For example, apparently some people think this kind of thing is alright:
http://time.com/4574732/donald-trump...slim-registry/
Are people really okay w referring to Japanese internment camps as a precedent for government action now?
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra
After Bannon's appointment, it seems like it's all up for grabs.Originally Posted by SongOfSapphire
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
Yeah....
I feel a pit in my stomach when I think about what is happening in our country. How can people go along w this? I genuinely do not understand although I am trying.
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra
Because they are either misinformed, underinformed, complacent, or racist misogynist bigots.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
Actually true. Except, I don't know how to tell them right. Some people are just blissfully unaware of how stupid they really are.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology
An optimist - does not get discouraged under any circumstances. Life upheavals and stressful events only toughen him and make more confident. He likes to laugh and entertain people. Enters contact with someone by involving him with a humorous remark. His humor is often sly and contain hints and double meanings. Easily enters into arguments and bets, especially if he is challenged. When arguing his points is often ironic, ridicules the views of his opponent. His irritability and hot temper may be unpleasant to others. However, he himself is not perceptive of this and believes that he is simply exchanging opinions.
http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LIE_Profile_by_Gulenko
People go along with this because they're afraid. They're afraid of terrorism and the nation losing its original identity. Fear is the driving force of a lot of things that appear to be hatred IMO.
“We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand.” Randy Pausch
Ne-IEE
6w7 sp/sx
6w7-9w1-4w5
Legitimate fears left unanswered develop into hatred.
CETERUM AUTEM CENSEO WASHINGTON D.C. ESSE DELENDAM
A lot of people are hurting and extremely dissatisfied with the state of the country. The one who promises massive systemic changes is the one who will get elected. Mainstream politics this year also ignored the economy and pretended it was fine when it wasn't. They straight up lied to the American people. Obama said it himself "The economy is great! And if anyone tells you otherwise, they're just peddling nonsense." Of course, it was nonsense that Obama was peddling. Unemployment and underemployment are through the roof. People are seeing their livelihood destroyed and little opportunity for their children to succeed. Basement dwelling is now normalized. Ordinary politicians like Clinton knew the problem existed but refused to address it. They paid dearly for their bad decisions. Who knows what Trump will do? As unpredictable add this election cycle was for many, his presidency will probably go the same way.
Ultimately, I believe you can thank the Democratic party for Trump. Many people were interested in voting for Bernie, but the DNC rigged the process by generating a media blackout and not covering Sanders. Also, many people think that voter rolls were purged of Sanders supporters to facilitate a Clinton victory in the primary. Lots of dirty dealing. And it bit them in the ass. Democrats chose the weaker candidate. Now they'll spend the next four years thinking about their decision.
Victor Davis Hanson is one of my favorite writers, I think this article points to a significant part of the explanation:
Victor Davis Hanson: Trump and the American Divide
How a lifelong New Yorker became tribune of the rustics and deplorables
This map ( 2016 US Presidential Election Map By County and Vote Share ) illustrates the situation quite well, I think. The US has like 3100 counties, Trump won more than 2500 of them, without the most urban ones HRC would have lost the popular vote by millions.
Last edited by ragnar; 01-16-2017 at 09:56 PM. Reason: demuddling expression
Greetings, ragnar
ILI knowledge-seeker
Good recommendation, do you have more of these articles?
That map is also the reason why the Electoral College is a thing. When the Republic was founded you had better bet your ass the more "rural" states understood that if they left it all up to the popular vote they'd eventually become nothing more than vassal states to the "urban" powers. This is also why the Republic has lasted as long as it has without conflict (the Civil War notwithstanding).
To most amicably govern an entire nation that is as vast as ours you have to have some form of legitimacy from both the urban and rural populations (as once a country gets this big you need to make sure one half doesn't suddenly tell the other to go fuck itself). The urban people may outnumber the rural population yes, but lemme ask you this. How long do you think that'd be the case if the rural folk suddenly decided to tell the urbanites to fuck off, made a list of demands (that would certainly piss off any liberal worthy of the term to no end), cut off the food supply chain (which they ultimately control top to bottom) and then say that they'll only start shipping food into the cities again once their demands were met? Most city slickers haven't even the slightest clue how crop production works. Hell, they couldn't even grow a basic garden competently. Poor fools would bury the seeds too deep or drown them in way too much water. Hell many of them'd shit themselves at the sight and buzz of a Bee!
It'd be a mass starvation die off of the urban population and the country would once again become a majority rural nation again. The city folk don't seem to understand this point sadly. I just hope Trump survives the next 4 years and/or if he dies early it's because of natural causes. If someone kills him off it's Civil War 2.0. Me and mine will most assuredly prevail in that conflict, but I REALLY don't want millions to die for bullshit reasons. War is stupid, always was, always will be. I do NOT want one to happen within my nation's borders within my lifetime. Or anyone's to be honest, I really want World Peace to finally be a thing we all enjoy...
Last edited by End; 01-18-2017 at 05:14 AM.
I guess...I guess I understand in a way that they're afraid. What I don't understand is how they can be willing to assuage their fear by doing something that seems, to me at least, to be a step in such a potentially dark direction. I guess as someone w an interest in the Holocaust, and having read a lot about ******'s rise to power, I am seeing parallels (as many people are) and feeling very worried about them.
Hmm... using Japanese internment camps as a precedent to excuse possibly highly unethical actions just caught me off-guard. I'm surprised the guy is so open about it, even. It's like he really doesn't see what's wrong w it.
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra
Humanity's heart is often filled with brutality and stupidity, they blame others without taking responsibility. It's natural to blame because we've all at one time or another been harmed by others.
This election is about blaming whatever group is convenient for our collective problems while taking no action or responsibility to change ourselves. The Bernie or bust people blamed the DNC while they sat back and did nothing to stop Trump. The Republicans blamed Muslims, democrats, Obama, whomever for their policies which created many of the problems that they want others to take blame for.
The democrats need to change too in this loss they are the only people apologizing for failing to win and taking even a modicum of responsibility. I envision the Democratic Party will change with a renewed focus on the working class and middle class, the Democrats failed to reach the people they needed to reach.
It's ok to blame and often this blame is legitimate to a certain extent, but there is always a price for not taking responsibility for yourself and your role in society. If the young adults refuse to accept responsibility for their futures, then there will be consequences, if the Republicans refuse to accept responsibilities for their failed policies, then there will be consequences, if the Democrats do not change into a party that can appeal to the working class and middle class, then there will be consequences.
I fear for disenfranchised minorities because their oppression will only grow more onerous. I fear for the disenfranchised whites because there is no greatness at the end of this journey, just a cliff. People can blame all they want, but if people don't take responsibility for their own actions and non-actions, there will be consequences.
It's ok to blame people when it's actually their fault.
CETERUM AUTEM CENSEO WASHINGTON D.C. ESSE DELENDAM
Blame is a emotional expression of frustration and it can be legitimate and useful in venting the many pains one might feel. But the solving of problems require people to take responsibility for the change you wish to see.
As an emotional expression, it is legitimate if it's sincere. Sometimes people can make mistakes blaming people that are innocent.
It doesn't excuse apathy, violence, sabotage, it doesn't justify trying to setup internment camps for Muslims or forcing them to register in "special registration" programs, it is not a excuse to stay the same and not change to face the changing world, it does not excuse snobbish elitism, it does not excuse to ignore the white working class, it is not a excuse to ignore racial profiling.
The harder the challenge, the easier it is to blame and the harder it is to change, organize and solve problems, it's easy to give up, it's easy to stick your head in the sand.
I am really fucking scared.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
fact checking: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...ers-are-idiots
I'm actually a little curious and excited about what the future holds. I would never have voted for him though. Curious none-the-less.
Sees that you're from Canada.
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
exactly what I was gonna say! lolSees that you're from Canada.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
Your post can be meaningfully condensed to these two sections.
The change of power (peaceful or violent) is not related to taking personality responsibility or your role in society. Societies go through drastic political and social reform because of converging social forces. It's partially true that we can play our own role in these social forces, but the way humans interact suggests that really, we will be swept along with a tide.
The social and political forces at play in representative democracies are at play regardless of how personally responsible you are. The global (not just US) social and political forces since "The End of History" acted and manoeuvred in such a way that we as citizens can't really take responsibility. Representative democracy is not a bad system, but it explicitly draws political responsibility away from the body politic, and towards a political class. What the hell are people supposed to take responsibility for? More to the realistic question: how can Americans "take responsibility" for their country's political outlook?
It's ok to ruminate on how or if the democratic or republican parties will change. It's ok to make platitudes about humanity and blame. It's not ok to suggest that the broader social forces in a representative democracy are the responsibility of the citizens; it's the responsibility of the administration of the institutions and the political and media class. It's not ok to talk about how it's immature to play the blame game and then lay blame on a huge part of a country, within nearly the same breath.
CETERUM AUTEM CENSEO WASHINGTON D.C. ESSE DELENDAM
I blame everyone(including myself) for the current election results, it is a collective failure. I am not playing the blame game, because we all are imperfect and we all have areas where we take the wrong course of actions or have the wrong beliefs. All I can do is change, and ask others to change, I ask each individual think about how they can change the world for the better and what they can do to influence themselves and the people around them. This is something limited but it can have profound effect if enough people choose this path.
As far as what responsibilities people and groups can take accountability for. People can take responsibility for their bad policies and oppression of others. People can take responsibility for their apathy and indifference to the suffering of others. People can take responsibility for ignoring poor whites. For each legitimate blame there is a legitimate change that each individual and group of individual can make, this is why blame is useful, sometimes it informs others and sometimes it informs oneself.
I have not called anyone immature nor am I asking them not to blame others, in fact they should blame others for what they perceive, but they should listen to the response as well. They should also try to see if there is some legitimacy to the blame other point towards them.
America is also a wonderful place full of decent people, and if even a small portion of the population worked towards better solutions, many problems can be solved. It was not by a huge margin that Trump won the election, and it's rarely by a huge margin that major events are influenced.
There is also no path for individuals except taking personal responsibility for their own self-interest, and advancing those interests without gross evil. Individuals can organize and collaborate but at the end of the day, it is still individual motivations that gels people together in a free society.
All they seemed to be saying was they would consider any action that protects the country. They haven't said Japanese internment camps are a good idea or that they are going to do it, but it does seem to be a way to suggest that a registry is appropriate, just as people thought the internment camps were appropriate in the past.It hasn't even been a week and a half since Trump was elected, and already so much seems to be happening or on the verge of happening.
For example, apparently some people think this kind of thing is alright:
http://time.com/4574732/donald-trump...slim-registry/
Are people really okay w referring to Japanese internment camps as a precedent for government action now?
And I have no strong opinion on the matter and feel like context is very important, so please don't freak out because I'm not freaking out. It's all seems like empty words to me right now. If something serious happens later on, like some major terrorist attacks, then shits going to get real and this would be something to worry about, but right now there's not much there, really. Media is blowing this out of proportion.
My theory is that Trump supporters are spurred to like him for any of these reasons: 1) Backlash to political correctness/alt right. These people are young and do not care about policy, jobs or issues in general they just hate the left and academia. 2) Old people who live in hick towns who want blue-collar jobs to pay for their mortgage like they used to. (These jobs are either gone forever to automation or to China) Newsflash your jobs are not coming back. They ruined the planet anyway with all that coal. 3) Lifelong republicans who supported Trump only because he was Republican. This includes people who vote single-issue like pro-life. 4) People who hate Clinton and would vote for anyone else, at all.
3 & 4 have some overlap.
I obviously didn't vote, but if I had, my vote would almost certainly go to Trump. I don't fully relate to all your points, though.
Wrt your pt 1, yeah, my vote would be a backlash to pc. I also dislike the left and academia.
Wrt your pt 2, I can't really relate, I found Trump's nonsense talk about "bringing jobs back" rather annoying, but I found his apparent respect for blue-collar professions and vocational training refreshing and encouraging.
Wrt your pt 3, yeah, I can relate, the DNC rhetoric seems totally alien, irrelevant and to a very large extent even contradictory to anything that I care about. I think that has to do with a dichotomy that relates to Socionics, "joiners" vs "individualists", idealists vs rationalists, "male" vs "female" psyche, whatever, not sure how to pinpoint it accurately.
Wrt your pt 4, I got thoroughly disillusioned with the Clintons already back in the 1990s, less than two years after they came on the national scene, so yeah, I would rather vote for a sack of potatoes than for anyone in the Clinton machine.
Last edited by ragnar; 01-18-2017 at 06:31 PM. Reason: improving sloppy grammar
Greetings, ragnar
ILI knowledge-seeker
there's a #5 - racists who want the "good old days" of white supremacy back, and liked his rhetoric. There is some overlap of this subset with the other 4.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
Maybe I can add some, I'm a trump supporter, because of these reasons:
A) I hate political correctness, it's like not adressing problems but shoving them under the carpet.
B) I like action instead of hollow words or promises that never come.
C) I like the power to the people, not to the elite/big companies.
D) I like healthy boundaries, so muslims in muslim countries, usa in usa countries, mexican in mexico. This makes everybody happy.
Hi, Jarno.
Thanks, I've often wondered why some people support Trump.
It is interesting that I support most of those things, too, but that caused me to vote for Hillary.
I agree with you on A, with the caveat that some things should be considered from several standpoints before taking action. Trump's Yemen raid is an example of that, but in general, I agree that shoving problems under the carpet is bad.
I also agree with you on B, but once again, only after those actions are considered.
I also agree with you on C, so I have a hard time watching Trump fill his cabinet with guys from big business and big finance when he said he would "drain the swamp". The first significant bill he has signed kills a transparency rule for oil companies.
What do you think about that?
We disagree on D. I think free movement between countries is a good thing because it attracts brilliant and hard-working people to the US. Vote with your feet. Imagine a world where you were locked into your little village for life, and your employer pretty much could do whatever he wants. On the other hand, immigration into the US is bad because individuals in the US have a huge footprint on the Earth, so more people here just speeds the consumption of finite resources. But on the other, other hand, fresh talent is often where the solutions come from.
Personally, I'm glad my ancestors were able to come to the US from Ireland (fleeing the potato famine) and from the Czech Republic (fleeing overpopulation vs. the food supply around 1914*, and once they got to the States, they converted to become Protestants.) If they hadn't been able to do that, there's a good chance they'd have died before I was started.
*You may have read about efforts begun in that year to bring the population of Europe closer to what the food supply could support.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-16-2017 at 12:40 AM.
Nobody's against immigration. It's ILLEGAL immigration that's in question.
Imagine if you were living in your house with open doors and unlocked windows. People just coming in and out as they please. Would you be willing to do that? Of course not. It has to be regulated. There has to be some lines and boundaries.
Speaking of which, here is Bill Clinton and Obama speaking on immigration. What do you think of their opinions
Last edited by Computer Loser; 02-16-2017 at 05:41 PM.
What do you think of something like stop and frisk, this is the problem, even american citizens can be stopped if they look like a "illegal". I don't think you really understand how the laws are being perverted to hurt legal immigrants, most of the people affected by the bans were not illegal immigrants, they were people who had VISAs. Your argument is meaningless when the most onerous actions are against legal immigrants not illegal ones.
Most of the court fights right now are about how to handle legal immigrants, including those seeking asylum(these are legal immigrants until they get their due process).
ah yes, if he is adding business guys to his cabinet it is against his promises. But giving an oil company some extra space could be to benefit the people of america, not just for giving the oil company higher profits.
Eh, i mean, texas and cali used to be fully "mexican" in principle. Idk if you can reason like that in really big countries.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
What's the basis for dividing people into these specific groups though? I'd have more personally in common with some nerdy, liberal, Muslim refugee from Mombasa than I do with 99% of my own culture and ethnicity.
Last edited by xerx; 02-18-2017 at 12:53 AM. Reason: edit
Well I guess it's just subjective. But I like people who I can relate too. I cannot relate to muslims to much, I don't know their culture and I don't want to know. I feel fine, and don't like to be confronted with religion etc.
Also when they arrive in a country they start to build mosques and raise their flags, as if the country is conquered and you are on their territory. There are lot's of no-go area's where muslims live, you are not welcome in their neighbourhoud.
Hmm, can't say that I share that experience; virtually everyone assimilates in Canada, especially Muslims - I'd argue because Canada is a very inclusive, egalitarian society. The effect of being an immigrant-founded nation probably also contributes to outsiders being made to feel included, as it likely does in the rest of the new world.
Bucking the apparent trend world-wide, there was a recent terrorist attack in Quebec against Muslims by some nut who reads Alt-right websites and Richard Dawkins.
I think Trump may only deliver on point A). I do agree with you on that, especially in europe we need less political correctness and more matter-of-fact action.
Point C) I really doubt that, Trump is part of the elite. Point D) the USA is a nation of immigrants thus...
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
what will happen to the war?
i'm seriously thinking i will just consistently vote green party from now on. if that party ever gets anywhere of course it will probably mean that it's been encapsulated into the rest of this shit.
Last edited by marooned; 11-21-2016 at 12:17 AM.
One thing that is scary is what will happen to you (reporters, anyone) who publically criticizes Trump? As president with executive powers, will he make your life difficult? Bully you? You are with him or against him and if you are against him, then what? What could stop him frommaking trouble for you in your organization? Board? Business?
not sure it really matters.
Going to keep this on file and watch when I can.
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