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Thread: USA politics following Trump's election

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    @Trump and entourage, whose entire ideology is based on this:


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    Shots fired, Trump supporters






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    The cure for politically motivated reasoning: http://www.vox.com/science-and-healt...ahan-curiosity

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    Quote Originally Posted by summerprincess View Post
    My theory is that Trump supporters are spurred to like him for any of these reasons: 1) Backlash to political correctness/alt right. These people are young and do not care about policy, jobs or issues in general they just hate the left and academia. 2) Old people who live in hick towns who want blue-collar jobs to pay for their mortgage like they used to. (These jobs are either gone forever to automation or to China) Newsflash your jobs are not coming back. They ruined the planet anyway with all that coal. 3) Lifelong republicans who supported Trump only because he was Republican. This includes people who vote single-issue like pro-life. 4) People who hate Clinton and would vote for anyone else, at all.

    3 & 4 have some overlap.
    there's a #5 - racists who want the "good old days" of white supremacy back, and liked his rhetoric. There is some overlap of this subset with the other 4.
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    Anyway, my two cents -

    I have a really hard to time understanding how trumpet won.
    I know he had a following, and maybe it's just that most of my social circle and extended social circle knows better than to elect someone like that to the presidency, but the vast majority of people in my environment (even people I am not closely acquainted with or at all) were very opposed to him.
    Could he have campaigned in a highly strategic way to calculate an electoral college win? maybe.... but idk I'm kind of skeptical.
    If the Russians hacked certain things during the campaign, I don't put it past them to have hacked the voting system to give him the win in certain strategic states (e.g. Florida, Michigan). Maybe when he was ranting about a "rigged" election, he was actually projecting. Or deflecting attention from the actual rigging from his end. Also him having made such a huge deal about it and the public's negative response to that makes it really hard to call him out on it now. Strategic move.

    Now that we basically are compelled to accept him as president, I am very anxious about what the future holds. Nostradamus predicted his win and Nostradamus also predicts a world war to happen as a result, with bad famine. In any case, I don't need Nostradamus' predictions to see that he's going to bring us into a war of some kind. I see many parallels with how ****** came to power, and I see every step trumpet taking bringing us closer to a totalitarian dictatorship where the press is enslaved by the government and the judiciary system becomes a puppet to the dictator. I'm not particularly reassured by the prospect of trumpet being impeached; if so, pence & gang (bannon, sessions, etc) take over and that's when the Nazism gets down to the real business. Religious minorities, non-white ethnicities, LGBT all are going to be oppressed (at best), bullied, or cleansed (at worst). It seems farfetched now, but the Holocaust would have seemed farfetched too when ****** first was elected to power. I'd be willing to give trumpet's administration the benefit of the doubt, but so far he and they are all acting very predictably, exactly as I thought they would.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    These tweets are the voices in Trump's head.
    Trump seems to me to be a person who had to create a false personality in order to survive his childhood (his brother died an alcoholic). Eventually, the false personality took over and buried the person that Trump was. But I'd like to think that that person is fighting back, in the form of tweets addressed to the created Trump.
    This right here, is the textbook description of narcissism personality disorder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chips and underwear View Post
    Sees that you're from Canada.
    exactly what I was gonna say! lol
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    Police and Firefighters are shocked to learn that Republicans are Anti-Union

    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...are-anti-union

    Who could have known? I mean, who, really?

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    it is getting easier and easier to see how far trump is from being the bombastic eminence some say he is

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    I was listening to a podcast last night on Bernie Madoff (http://the1a.org/shows/2017-01-31/be...e-prison-tapes), and Madoff sounds remarkably similar to Donald Trump. The words he uses, the cadence, everything. Madoff was great at misdirecting people who trusted him while stealing from them for his own aggrandizement.


    Trump has been very busy in his first weeks in office, but has actually gotten very little done. He looks like he's doing stuff, and that might be enough for his base. http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politi...ccomplishments

    How a CIA veteran views Trump's relationship with Russia: http://www.vox.com/conversations/201...ia-white-house

    and here: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...resident-trump

    Because: http://angrybearblog.com/2017/02/the...en-botch.html?

    and here: http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-s...er-tiger-china

    However, if you think Trump supporters are giving up on him, you are wrong. Because they knew who they were voting for. http://angrybearblog.com/2017/02/the...17-begins.html

    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-15-2017 at 10:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by summerprincess View Post
    My theory is that Trump supporters are spurred to like him for any of these reasons: ...
    Maybe I can add some, I'm a trump supporter, because of these reasons:

    A) I hate political correctness, it's like not adressing problems but shoving them under the carpet.
    B) I like action instead of hollow words or promises that never come.
    C) I like the power to the people, not to the elite/big companies.
    D) I like healthy boundaries, so muslims in muslim countries, usa in usa countries, mexican in mexico. This makes everybody happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Maybe I can add some, I'm a trump supporter, because of these reasons:

    A) I hate political correctness, it's like not adressing problems but shoving them under the carpet.
    B) I like action instead of hollow words or promises that never come.
    C) I like the power to the people, not to the elite/big companies.
    D) I like healthy boundaries, so muslims in muslim countries, usa in usa countries, mexican in mexico. This makes everybody happy.
    Hi, Jarno.
    Thanks, I've often wondered why some people support Trump.
    It is interesting that I support most of those things, too, but that caused me to vote for Hillary.
    I agree with you on A, with the caveat that some things should be considered from several standpoints before taking action. Trump's Yemen raid is an example of that, but in general, I agree that shoving problems under the carpet is bad.
    I also agree with you on B, but once again, only after those actions are considered.
    I also agree with you on C, so I have a hard time watching Trump fill his cabinet with guys from big business and big finance when he said he would "drain the swamp". The first significant bill he has signed kills a transparency rule for oil companies.

    What do you think about that?

    We disagree on D. I think free movement between countries is a good thing because it attracts brilliant and hard-working people to the US. Vote with your feet. Imagine a world where you were locked into your little village for life, and your employer pretty much could do whatever he wants. On the other hand, immigration into the US is bad because individuals in the US have a huge footprint on the Earth, so more people here just speeds the consumption of finite resources. But on the other, other hand, fresh talent is often where the solutions come from.

    Personally, I'm glad my ancestors were able to come to the US from Ireland (fleeing the potato famine) and from the Czech Republic (fleeing overpopulation vs. the food supply around 1914*, and once they got to the States, they converted to become Protestants.) If they hadn't been able to do that, there's a good chance they'd have died before I was started.

    *You may have read about efforts begun in that year to bring the population of Europe closer to what the food supply could support.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-16-2017 at 12:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post

    We disagree on D. I think free movement between countries is a good thing because it attracts brilliant and hard-working people to the US. Vote with your feet. Imagine a world where you were locked into your little village for life, and your employer pretty much could do whatever he wants. On the other hand, immigration into the US is bad because individuals in the US have a huge footprint on the Earth, so more people here just speeds the consumption of finite resources. But on the other, other hand, fresh talent is often where the solutions come from.

    Personally, I'm glad my ancestors were able to come to the US from Ireland (fleeing the potato famine) and from the Czech Republic (fleeing overpopulation vs. the food supply around 1914*, and once they got to the States, they converted to become Protestants.) If they hadn't been able to do that, there's a good chance they'd have died before I was started.

    *You may have read about efforts begun in that year to bring the population of Europe closer to what the food supply could support.
    Nobody's against immigration. It's ILLEGAL immigration that's in question.

    Imagine if you were living in your house with open doors and unlocked windows. People just coming in and out as they please. Would you be willing to do that? Of course not. It has to be regulated. There has to be some lines and boundaries.

    Speaking of which, here is Bill Clinton and Obama speaking on immigration. What do you think of their opinions

    Last edited by Computer Loser; 02-16-2017 at 05:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    D) I like healthy boundaries, so muslims in muslim countries, usa in usa countries, mexican in mexico. This makes everybody happy.
    Eh, i mean, texas and cali used to be fully "mexican" in principle. Idk if you can reason like that in really big countries.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Isnt this the textbook aristocratic way of leading the country as oppose to the democratic. Anyhow I do not think it be that bad, its just a different order things are being made. After all a lot of Americans voted for him, not being afraid of their lifes or so. I never understood the big fuss after the election. You can not change something that happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    D) I like healthy boundaries, so muslims in muslim countries, usa in usa countries, mexican in mexico. This makes everybody happy.
    What's the basis for dividing people into these specific groups though? I'd have more personally in common with some nerdy, liberal, Muslim refugee from Mombasa than I do with 99% of my own culture and ethnicity.
    Last edited by xerx; 02-18-2017 at 12:53 AM. Reason: edit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I also agree with you on C, so I have a hard time watching Trump fill his cabinet with guys from big business and big finance when he said he would "drain the swamp". The first significant bill he has signed kills a transparency rule for oil companies.

    What do you think about that?
    ah yes, if he is adding business guys to his cabinet it is against his promises. But giving an oil company some extra space could be to benefit the people of america, not just for giving the oil company higher profits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    What's the basis for dividing people into these specific groups though? I'd have more personally in common with some nerdy, liberal, Muslim refugee from Mombasa than I do with 99% of my own culture and ethnicity.
    Well I guess it's just subjective. But I like people who I can relate too. I cannot relate to muslims to much, I don't know their culture and I don't want to know. I feel fine, and don't like to be confronted with religion etc.
    Also when they arrive in a country they start to build mosques and raise their flags, as if the country is conquered and you are on their territory. There are lot's of no-go area's where muslims live, you are not welcome in their neighbourhoud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Maybe I can add some, I'm a trump supporter, because of these reasons:

    A) I hate political correctness, it's like not adressing problems but shoving them under the carpet.
    B) I like action instead of hollow words or promises that never come.
    C) I like the power to the people, not to the elite/big companies.
    D) I like healthy boundaries, so muslims in muslim countries, usa in usa countries, mexican in mexico. This makes everybody happy.
    I think Trump may only deliver on point A). I do agree with you on that, especially in europe we need less political correctness and more matter-of-fact action.

    Point C) I really doubt that, Trump is part of the elite. Point D) the USA is a nation of immigrants thus...
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I was listening to a podcast last night on Bernie Madoff (http://the1a.org/shows/2017-01-31/be...e-prison-tapes), and Madoff sounds remarkably similar to Donald Trump. The words he uses, the cadence, everything. Madoff was great at misdirecting people who trusted him while stealing from them for his own aggrandizement.


    Trump has been very busy in his first weeks in office, but has actually gotten very little done. He looks like he's doing stuff, and that might be enough for his base. http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politi...ccomplishments

    How a CIA veteran views Trump's relationship with Russia: http://www.vox.com/conversations/201...ia-white-house

    and here: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...resident-trump

    Because: http://angrybearblog.com/2017/02/the...en-botch.html?

    and here: http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-s...er-tiger-china

    However, if you think Trump supporters are giving up on him, you are wrong. Because they knew who they were voting for. http://angrybearblog.com/2017/02/the...17-begins.html

    Ultimately this is something his supporters want, they know what they're getting. At its core this is a existential crisis for the oldest as they deal with how to hand off to the younger generations, in many ways it's a rot that has grown cancerous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    Nobody's against immigration. It's ILLEGAL immigration that's in question.

    Imagine if you were living in your house with open doors and unlocked windows. People just coming in and out as they please. Would you be willing to do that? Of course not. It has to be regulated. There has to be some lines and boundaries.

    Speaking of which, here is Bill Clinton and Obama speaking on immigration. What do you think of their opinions
    What do you think of something like stop and frisk, this is the problem, even american citizens can be stopped if they look like a "illegal". I don't think you really understand how the laws are being perverted to hurt legal immigrants, most of the people affected by the bans were not illegal immigrants, they were people who had VISAs. Your argument is meaningless when the most onerous actions are against legal immigrants not illegal ones.

    Most of the court fights right now are about how to handle legal immigrants, including those seeking asylum(these are legal immigrants until they get their due process).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Well I guess it's just subjective. But I like people who I can relate too. I cannot relate to muslims to much, I don't know their culture and I don't want to know. I feel fine, and don't like to be confronted with religion etc.
    Also when they arrive in a country they start to build mosques and raise their flags, as if the country is conquered and you are on their territory. There are lot's of no-go area's where muslims live, you are not welcome in their neighbourhoud.
    Hmm, can't say that I share that experience; virtually everyone assimilates in Canada, especially Muslims - I'd argue because Canada is a very inclusive, egalitarian society. The effect of being an immigrant-founded nation probably also contributes to outsiders being made to feel included, as it likely does in the rest of the new world.

    Bucking the apparent trend world-wide, there was a recent terrorist attack in Quebec against Muslims by some nut who reads Alt-right websites and Richard Dawkins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    What do you think of something like stop and frisk, this is the problem, even american citizens can be stopped if they look like a "illegal". ).
    1. We aren’t discussing police methods to reduce crime. I was talking about immigrants specifically coming to the US illegally. But...

    2. Stop and frisk would more accurately apply to both blacks and hispanics, not just people that look illegal.

    3. Stop and frisk was ruled constitutional in 1968; if you have reasonable suspicion that they are armed and dangerous and don’t have time to get a search warrant, you can do stop and frisk. The controversy comes because this is largely subjective. But again, this is controversy with a law already established and is off-topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    I don't think you really understand how the laws are being perverted to hurt legal immigrants, most of the people affected by the bans were not illegal immigrants, they were people who had VISAs. ).
    Again, I was specifically talking about immigrants illegally crossing the border from Mexico to USA. But if you want to talk about the travel ban…

    Total muslim nations: 53
    # of muslim nations affected: 7

    The reason why Trump picked those 7: Because Obama felt like those were most infiltrated by ISIS so Trump is using this as a guide.

    Statistics first day this temporary halt was implemented

    Number of people that came in from those 7 countries: 325,000
    Number of people that were inconvenienced for further questioning: 109

    109/325,000 = 0.0003

    Yes, there were HUGE mistakes during the rollout. Citizens, translators, officials, green card holders, etc were affected by this but this was resolved the next day.

    For example, my Yemini friend’s dad had no trouble flying to Yemen and back because he’s a US citizen.

    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    Your argument is meaningless when the most onerous actions are against legal immigrants not illegal ones. ).
    1. Sources? Statistics? What was the nature of the onerous actions against legal immigrants? Are you talking about the current temporary travel ban or the deportation of ILLEGAL criminals, child molesters, drug dealers? Which LEGAL immigrant cases are you referring to thats been affected by the presidency. (BTW, did you watch the video I posted on Clinton and Obama's stance on illegal immigration. What did you think of their opinion)

    2. People are having this impression that doors are being kicked down and innocent immigrants are being hand-cuffed and thrown out of the country or that all Muslims are being banned without knowing the nuances of what’s actually going on. This is EXTREMELY intellectually dishonest.

    Your argument is also meaningless when you don’t give specifics.

    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    Most of the court fights right now are about how to handle legal immigrants, including those seeking asylum(these are legal immigrants until they get their due process).
    1. Justice Department attorneys/Federal judges have been trying to deny the immigration orders from the president himself. An example of this includes the actions of former attorney general Sally Yates (Which, BTW, Liberal Harvard law professors said was wrong/politically motivated.)

    2. The president isn't changing or violating any laws or bypassing congress. Immigration to the US is a privilege NOT a right. It's perfectly OK for the president, as commander in chief, to protect Americans by temporarily halting immigration. Obama and Carter DID THE SAME THING (funny how nobody ever mentions this.)

    3. I agree it is a tough call. There are innocent refugees fleeing persecution, especially the Christian minorities. There’s a huge humanitarian component in this matter. However, at the same time, something has to be done or nothing will ever change. The US also can’t please everyone and you can’t expect them to be the world’s hospital/shelter, something has to give.
    Last edited by Computer Loser; 02-20-2017 at 09:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Hmm, can't say that I share that experience; virtually everyone assimilates in Canada, especially Muslims - I'd argue because Canada is a very inclusive, egalitarian society. The effect of being an immigrant-founded nation probably also contributes to outsiders being made to feel included, as it likely does in the rest of the new world.

    Bucking the apparent trend world-wide, there was a recent terrorist attack in Quebec against Muslims by some nut who reads Alt-right websites and Richard Dawkins.
    Yes that is canada. I can see how you cannot relate to my experience. But you would if you lived here.

    In my country many muslims don't integrate, they build mosques and segragate from the rest. For example we have muslim 'refugees' from Somalia that came here in 2002, and now in 2016/2017 still 80% of them lives on welfare and has no job. This is a fact from our statistics bureau. In canada these people would work, here they don't. How come??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Yes that is canada. I can see how you cannot relate to my experience. But you would if you lived here.

    In my country many muslims don't integrate, they build mosques and segragate from the rest. For example we have muslim 'refugees' from Somalia that came here in 2002, and now in 2016/2017 still 80% of them lives on welfare and has no job. This is a fact from our statistics bureau. In canada these people would work, here they don't. How come??
    I agree with this sentiment after living in central-northern europe since some years.
    Although Jarno many refugees are also not allowed to work for many years due to bureucratic rules.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    1. We aren’t discussing police methods to reduce crime. I was talking about immigrants specifically coming to the US illegally. But...

    2. Stop and frisk would more accurately apply to both blacks and hispanics, not just people that look illegal.

    3. Stop and frisk was ruled constitutional in 1968; if you have reasonable suspicion that they are armed and dangerous and don’t have time to get a search warrant, you can do stop and frisk. The controversy comes because this is largely subjective. But again, this is controversy with a law already established and is off-topic.
    And any other group that ICE/the enforcement officers wants to targets or are asked to target. The issue is corruption.

    Stop and frisk is the legal issue that is going to be used to stop legal immigrants by ICE and any group which falls under "alien". The language will be vague given the current inclination of this administration, to allow for people to be stopped for immigration offense not just "that they are armed and dangerous". And this is a very dangerous line to draw as "who is an immigrant" as being equal to "armed and dangerous". Ultimately this law will allow for action based on mere appearance and not any sort of armed and dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    Again, I was specifically talking about immigrants illegally crossing the border from Mexico to USA. But if you want to talk about the travel ban…

    Total muslim nations: 53
    # of muslim nations affected: 7

    The reason why Trump picked those 7: Because Obama felt like those were most infiltrated by ISIS so Trump is using this as a guide.

    Statistics first day this temporary halt was implemented

    Number of people that came in from those 7 countries: 325,000
    Number of people that were inconvenienced for further questioning: 109

    109/325,000 = 0.0003
    Once again the issue is corruption but let's talk statistics.

    That number of 325,000 from those 7 countries is wrong, for 325000 people to fly in a day from those 7 countries that would be over 1000 planes and that seems unlikely for these 7 countries. You might be talking about all international passengers but that doesn't mean anything really. It only took them a 1 days to deny due process to the 109 people you want to talk about(since people stopped flying here after it got put in or were stopped at the gate).

    It's not mere inconvenience but they were held without due process and right to see a lawyer until individuals were able to ascertain due process for them thru legal struggle.

    oh yea here, someone already fact checked this bullshit, stop feeding your brain on propaganda.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.c76c0fbb6bba

    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post

    Yes, there were HUGE mistakes during the rollout. Citizens, translators, officials, green card holders, etc were affected by this but this was resolved the next day.

    For example, my Yemini friend’s dad had no trouble flying to Yemen and back because he’s a US citizen.
    They specifically prevent access to the targeted individuals and denied them due process by refusing to let them see a lawyer, it's only because of the efforts against this that this rollout was halted. The reason the damage was limited is because this was stopped legally and people were even allowed on the planes at their boarding location.

    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post

    1. Sources? Statistics? What was the nature of the onerous actions against legal immigrants? Are you talking about the current temporary travel ban or the deportation of ILLEGAL criminals, child molesters, drug dealers? Which LEGAL immigrant cases are you referring to thats been affected by the presidency. (BTW, did you watch the video I posted on Clinton and Obama's stance on illegal immigration. What did you think of their opinion)

    2. People are having this impression that doors are being kicked down and innocent immigrants are being hand-cuffed and thrown out of the country or that all Muslims are being banned without knowing the nuances of what’s actually going on. This is EXTREMELY intellectually dishonest. Your argument is also meaningless when you don’t give specifics.

    1. Justice Department attorneys/Federal judges have been trying to deny the immigration orders from the president himself. An example of this includes the actions of former attorney general Sally Yates (Which, BTW, Liberal Harvard law professors said was wrong/politically motivated.)

    2. The president isn't changing or violating any laws or bypassing congress. Immigration to the US is a privilege NOT a right. It's perfectly OK for the president, as commander in chief, to protect Americans by temporarily halting immigration. Obama and Carter DID THE SAME THING (funny how nobody ever mentions this.)

    3. I agree it is a tough call. There are innocent refugees fleeing persecution, especially the Christian minorities. There’s a huge humanitarian component in this matter. However, at the same time, something has to be done or nothing will ever change. The US also can’t please everyone and you can’t expect them to be the world’s hospital/shelter, something has to give.
    I specifically didn't talk about deportations because these were in effect with Obama, I am only talking things which are going towards corruption, which are largely a matter of ambiguous laws and prejudiced enforcement. These shifts are hard to measure statistically in the present.

    It's only been a few weeks so there are no real specifics or statistics to talk about but there is definitely ambiguous laws and prejudiced enforcement being discussed and some put into orders. Carter and Obama might have halted immigration but they didn't make campaign promises about banning a select group of people either. And ultimately this is once again a matter of corruption.

    You have no idea how much harm can be done, or how much harm will be done, if this is not heavily fought against, and you have no statistics to back it up beyond the effects of the action on a single short time frame which was prevented from having greater harm. Only history of humanity can inform us of the great evil and harm that can happen thru actions like this and history is not pretty.

    Ultimately this is a issue of corruption, the consequences are only being reduced because the efforts are there to prevent it.

    It's extremely intellectually disingenuous for you talk about harm when the harm is largely in the future. And the effect of the conflict that's is occurring will have a major role in preventing that harm.

    If the harm is not prevented, you will have many more statistics humanity can talk about in the future.

    Here you are lying about the real statistics, talking about statistics and facts of things that have yet to occur and are being prevented by people who are working very hard to keep those statistics from coming to fruition. The world will be much better if the statistics on the harm that can happen is minimal.

    Stop being intellectually disingenuous because it will get you nowhere.

    I have very little intellectual stake and am not a policy wonk. I could care less about the intellectual side of this, politics is about struggle. And the struggle is against a corrupt administration which threatens harm the very core of America. And what I can do in this struggle is donate to support the legal resistance I want to see towards the future harm which I want to prevent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Yes that is canada. I can see how you cannot relate to my experience. But you would if you lived here.

    In my country many muslims don't integrate, they build mosques and segragate from the rest. For example we have muslim 'refugees' from Somalia that came here in 2002, and now in 2016/2017 still 80% of them lives on welfare and has no job. This is a fact from our statistics bureau. In canada these people would work, here they don't. How come??
    I will admit that I'm not terribly familiar with the situation in Europe.

    I don't know the stats offhand in Canada, but even in a USA which elected Donald Trump, Muslims are the second most educated religious group (Jews are number one), making up a significant share of physicians and hi-tech workers at Silicon Valley. Miss USA 2010 was a bikini-clad Muslim. Muslims overwhelmingly voted for Bernie Sanders (a Jewish Socialist) during the Democratic party primaries.

    Even with the occasional radical, North America has to be doing something right for integration to be going this smoothly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Even with the occasional radical, North America has to be doing something right for integration to be going this smoothly.
    Yep. We have welfare 1000,- dollar per month plus extra's for rental and Healthcare approx 600,- a month. Totals 1600 income a month, doing nuthing.
    Also refugees get a free rental house, and for example in a city called Den Bosch they also get a one time 10.000 dollar to buy furniture.
    Why work?

    In usa welfare is 250 dollar a month.

    There you have your reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Yep. We have welfare 1000,- dollar per month plus extra's for rental and Healthcare approx 600,- a month. Totals 1600 income a month, doing nuthing.
    Also refugees get a free rental house, and for example in a city called Den Bosch they also get a one time 10.000 dollar to buy furniture.
    Why work?

    In usa welfare is 250 dollar a month.

    There you have your reason.
    When I was an undergraduate, I read an Econ essay that asked, "Who fares well in the welfare state?". It turns out it is the grocers and the furniture makers and the landlords and the telecon companies.

    But that is only welfare which is channeled through poor people. There are much, much greater streams flowing to corporations in the form of tax write-offs, infinitely extended intellectual property protections, and protection of doctors dentists and professors from foreign wage competition.

    http://deanbaker.net/images/stories/...Liberalism.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    And any other group that ICE/the enforcement officers wants to targets or are asked to target. The issue is corruption.
    Stop and frisk is the legal issue that is going to be used to stop legal immigrants by ICE and any group which falls under "alien". The language will be vague given the current inclination of this administration, to allow for people to be stopped for immigration offense not just "that they are armed and dangerous". And this is a very dangerous line to draw as "who is an immigrant" as being equal to "armed and dangerous". Ultimately this law will allow for action based on mere appearance and not any sort of armed and dangerous
    I'm still not sure where you're going with this. Yes you get stopped for being suspicious. Now whether or not looking like an immigrant increases your chances of being stopped and frisked and how this is corrupt is just your opinion. Yes if there was no reasonable suspicion that's bullshit for being stopped and frisked. I think we can both agree with that.

    My question is, is there a specific new policy implemented during this Trump presidency that involves stop and frisk? Or is there a specific problem with innocent legal immigrants being stop and frisked right now?

    I'm not aware of any, please enlighten me.

    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    Once again the issue is corruption but let's talk statistics.
    Lol. Well you need to back up/substantiate your claims of corruption with facts, evidence and statistics. I can just as easily go off on a philosophical rant about whether or not these policies are corrupt. But you need the former otherwise your argument just falls apart.



    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    That number of 325,000 from those 7 countries is wrong, for 325000 people to fly in a day from those 7 countries that would be over 1000 planes and that seems unlikely for these 7 countries. You might be talking about all international passengers but that doesn't mean anything really.
    Touché mu4. That was my honest mistake. 325,000 international passengers. Glad you pointed that out.

    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    It only took them a 1 days to deny due process to the 109 people you want to talk about(since people stopped flying here after it got put in or were stopped at the gate).
    It's not mere inconvenience but they were held without due process and right to see a lawyer until individuals were able to ascertain due process for them thru legal struggle.

    They specifically prevent access to the targeted individuals and denied them due process by refusing to let them see a lawyer, it's only because of the efforts against this that this rollout was halted.
    Lol. How do you even give due process to people that aren't even US citizens. Do we now give people that don't even live on American soil US constitutional rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    The reason the damage was limited is because this was stopped legally and people were even allowed on the planes at their boarding location.
    Yes the 109 were detained. They implemented this policy right away without warning. The reason for this was to prevent potential terrorists from getting in before it was implemented. Of course there would be problems. I never claimed it was a perfect system. The rollout was terrible. But again, it was corrected.



    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    oh yea here, someone already fact checked this bullshit, stop feeding your brain on propaganda.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.c76c0fbb6bba
    1. 109 WERE detained. That was factually correct.
    2. The 90,000 number is the ANNUAL number of people that COULD be affected TEMPORARILY.
    3. What WAS bullshit was the media uproar, exaggeration, and images to suggest A LOT more than the 109. And bullshit headlines like "MUSLIM BAN"
    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    I specifically didn't talk about deportations because these were in effect with Obama, I am only talking things which are going towards corruption, which are largely a matter of ambiguous laws and prejudiced enforcement. These shifts are hard to measure statistically in the present.
    It's only been a few weeks so there are no real specifics or statistics to talk about but there is definitely ambiguous laws and prejudiced enforcement being discussed and some put into orders.
    Like I mentioned, the 7 countries was a list put together by president Obama. These were countries suspected of being infiltrated by ISIS. How is this ambiguous and prejudiced.

    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    Carter and Obama might have halted immigration but they didn't make campaign promises about banning a select group of people either. And ultimately this is once again a matter of corruption.
    Yes, you're right. Carter and Obama didn't make campaign promises. But they still CARRIED OUT THE ACT of halting immigration, specifically to protect the American people.

    ISIS is a problem. Trump made a promise to address this problem and he told the American people what he was going to do, and he did it. How is that corruption?



    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    You have no idea how much harm can be done, or how much harm will be done, if this is not heavily fought against, and you have no statistics to back it up beyond the effects of the action on a single short time frame which was prevented from having greater harm.
    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    And ultimately this is once again a matter of corruption.
    Again, what's your argument for corruption if this is primarily to protect the American people, first and foremost?

    And harm? Are you fucking serious. Lol. People are being BEHEADED. People are being BLOWN UP. Terrorism is a real problem. Do you not care about this harm?

    If you and your family lived in a crime-ridden area I'm willing to bet that you as a father would DAMN WELL do everything he could to protect his family; install security cameras, insure there were proper locks on the doors, hell, get a fucking canine to be the guard dog.




    Similarly, as POTUS, it's not unreasonable for him to find a way to protect US citizens first.

    No, it's not going to be perfect. Yes, there will be little problems that arise with the system. But something has to be done or nothing will change. There will be some wins but there will also be losses and inconveniences along the way. THAT'S THE UGLY REALITY. You can't completely please everyone when making decisions. You can't give Usain Bolt and all his competitors gold medals when they across the finish line. Something has to give.

    This isn't corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    Only history of humanity can inform us of the great evil and harm that can happen thru actions like this and history is not pretty.
    Again, that's why I mentioned Obama and Carter. They did the same thing. What harmful implications can we extrapolate from their actions?

    Also, look at what's going on in Germany; their refugee policy has revealed 142,500 crimes during the first six months of 2016.

    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    ...and history is not pretty


    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    Ultimately this is a issue of corruption, the consequences are only being reduced because the efforts are there to prevent it.
    It's extremely intellectually disingenuous for you talk about harm when the harm is largely in the future. And the effect of the conflict that's is occurring will have a major role in preventing that harm.
    If the harm is not prevented, you will have many more statistics humanity can talk about in the future.
    So then where do you draw the line?

    Do we simply let everyone into this country? No, that's fucking retarded and we'll just end up killing more people. THAT'S corruption.

    We need standards.

    Trump lowered the cap to 50,000 immigrants. That's roughly the same as it was 3 years back. Lets not exaggerate what's actually happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    Here you are lying about the real statistics, talking about statistics and facts of things that have yet to occur and are being prevented by people who are working very hard to keep those statistics from coming to fruition. The world will be much better if the statistics on the harm that can happen is minimal.
    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    Stop being intellectually disingenuous because it will get you nowhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    I have very little intellectual stake and am not a policy wonk. I could care less about the intellectual side of this, politics is about struggle.
    Sorry but the reality of it is we have to be intellectual. Getting emotional and irrationally lashing out is the last thing this country needs. THAT'S when you cross a dangerous line and cause unnecessary division. If you want a hug box/circle jerk session where everyone pats your back and agrees with you, discussing politics isn't the right place to be. There's a lot of Trump bashing/virtue signaling going on and I want to offer a different perspective than 99.9% of the people here. And who knows, maybe it'll prevent one less person from wearing a vagina hat and violently protesting the streets while destroying property/doing harm while simultaneously carrying a sign that says LOVE TRUMPS HATE. lol



    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    And the struggle is against a corrupt administration which threatens harm the very core of America. And what I can do in this struggle is donate to support the legal resistance I want to see towards the future harm which I want to prevent.
    LOL!!!!


    Last edited by Computer Loser; 02-21-2017 at 07:59 PM.

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    I was really surprised to see an American president overtly exhibit a lot of the behaviours of my ESTp uncovered profile; I would have thought the administration would have kept them under wraps - at least to the extent that they did with Bush. To seemingly turn him so much to the dark side, there must be something else in play here more than a lack of adoration.

    http://www.socionics.com/articles/unestp.html

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Sad fact is the Native Americans were victims of two major factors, the "Virgin Soil" effect and the Population Explosion of Europe coupled with a high degree of maritime knowledge. There was practically nothing the natives could have done without literal divine intervention in regards to their plight. Once Cortez landed the germs his boys unknowingly carried spelled mass death for the natives. I could go into a lot of things but suffice it to say we merely benefited from having the right immunities at the right time.

    The second thing that screwed em' over was Europe's population explosion and the somewhat unique tendency of Europeans to be radical individualists. This is why we/they are so concerned about universal ethics. Without a universal "in" group that everyone can claim they belong to the ethic necessarily become universal. After all, if we can't fully form an Us vs. Them axis on some superficial bullshit level then we'll have to devise a universal ethic just to even function as a society. This is the unique legacy of Europe, radical individualism. It is both a gift and a curse as, if some group has that universal in-group preference gets a foothold within that society they will be quite able to exploit the "high-trust" individualists out of house and home with minimal collective effort (e.g. look at (((who))) controls all the major cultural institutions of the West right now). Sadly for them nothing pisses off an individualist like kindness scorned/exploited for selfish reasons. Rudyard Kipling wrote a poem about that, and we Saxons are just about ready to hate. Pray you are not in the blast radius of that coming storm .

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    Here is an important analysis of Trump's psychology: http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politi...eralism-losing

    It basically agrees with @Rebelondeck's article above. (http://www.socionics.com/articles/unestp.html)

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    from that article:

    But here, too, Trump’s response has been to blame the institutions recording his incompetence rather than to fix the underlying problem.

    beta psychology in a nutshell

    betas have to make every single dispute personal (because they can't distinguish between reality and its messengers) which is also why they give off that disgusting sexual vibe. like every solution inheres in dominating the superficial "source" which is never really the source at all. the universal solution of either trying to charm (Fe) or force (Se) people into compliance irrespective of reality reduces everything to a game over who can convince who of what lies and by what means... so much so they deny there even could be something more objective (this is where every argument takes a metaphysical turn)-- a convenient idea when you're arbitrarily trying to grab and consolidate power, since the truth devolves into whatever you want it to be. notice their pervasive critique of "news" in general. not just Trump but all betas. because the idea that they can't just dictate reality wholesale to their thralls means whatever disagrees with them must be lying-- hence we get all of Trumps unsubstantiated metaphysical rhetoric against the press-- it is indicative of beta methods and reasoning. from their point of view I'm sure it is 100% convincing, but it relies on the assumption that they, as rightful masters, have a godlike connection to the truth which, looking back through history, probably explains most corrupt religious institutions and their dogma as expressions of simple beta mind control (note: I am a Christian myself but in an individualistic sense, what I am identifying here are the excesses of religion as a human institution--in other words, the beta misuse of the god concept as a rubber stamp on empty human authority, not against God in general). Even IEI's like Dietrich Bonhoeffer admit this when they say things like the cheap proliferation of religious ideas has piled on more spiritual corpses and done more damage to the cause of Christ than any purely secular "adversary"--because at some point Gammas see through all that and God "dies" in their culture (Nietzsche--in other words, ILI didn't kill God, betas did a good enough of that job on their own--he simply pointed out what had already happened--now watch betas come in here and without a shred of self awareness try to go after the messenger, Nietzsche, by calling him IEI) and it takes someone like Kierkegaard (EII) to rehabilitate the concept (this time without all the beta corruption) after all the damage done to it (which is precisely what his Attack on Christendom represents).
    Last edited by Bertrand; 02-22-2017 at 10:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    from that article:




    beta psychology in a nutshell

    betas have to make every single dispute personal (because they can't distinguish between reality and its messengers) which is also why they give off that disgusting sexual vibe. like every solution inheres in dominating the superficial "source" which is never really the source at all. the universal solution of either trying to charm (Fe) or force (Se) people into compliance irrespective of reality reduces everything to a game over who can convince who of what lies and by what means... so much so they deny there even could be something more objective (this is where every argument takes a metaphysical turn)-- a convenient idea when you're arbitrarily trying to grab and consolidate power, since the truth devolves into whatever you want it to be. notice their pervasive critique of "news" in general. not just Trump but all betas. because the idea that they can't just dictate reality wholesale to their thralls means whatever disagrees with them must be lying-- hence we get all of Trumps unsubstantiated metaphysical rhetoric against the press-- it is indicative of beta methods and reasoning. from their point of view I'm sure it is 100% convincing, but it relies on the assumption that they, as rightful masters, have a godlike connection to the truth which, looking back through history, probably explains most corrupt religious institutions and their dogma as expressions of simple beta mind control (note: I am a Christian myself but in an individualistic sense, what I am identifying here are the excesses of religion as a human institution--in other words, the beta misuse of the god concept as a rubber stamp on empty human authority, not against God in general). Even IEI's like Dietrich Bonhoeffer admit this when they say things like the cheap proliferation of religious ideas has piled on more spiritual corpses and done more damage to the cause of Christ than any purely secular "adversary"--because at some point Gammas see through all that and God "dies" in their culture (Nietzsche--in other words, ILI didn't kill God, betas did a good enough of that job on their own--he simply pointed out what had already happened--now watch betas come in here and without a shred of self awareness try to go after the messenger, Nietzsche, by calling him IEI) and it takes someone like Kierkegaard (EII) to rehabilitate the concept (this time without all the beta corruption) after all the damage done to it (which is precisely what his Attack on Christendom represents).
    Hm, interesting. What parts do Ni and Ti play?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Hm, interesting. What parts do Ni and Ti play?
    off the cuff: I feel like Ni is how they envision their twisted plots, and Ti is how they organize their internal thoughts, as well as determining the structure and form their propaganda takes, usually in the shape of simplistic if-->then constructions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    off the cuff: I feel like Ni is how they envision their twisted plots, and Ti is how they organize their internal thoughts, as well as determining the structure and form their propaganda takes, usually in the shape of simplistic if-->then constructions
    Omg. Twisted plots, propaganda takes. You make me giggle

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