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Thread: Extroverted intuition Ne - talking in circles?

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    Default Extroverted intuition Ne - talking in circles?

    I've noticed that in interactions with other Alpha NTs (and possibly Delta NFs too) there seems to be a tendency to "talk in circles." What I mean is that often somebody will raise a question about something unknown / speculative / uncertain / in the future without having enough information to determine the answer. Often figuring out the answer requires more than just discussion, it requires actually doing something (), going out and talking to someone else, waiting until later or until more information comes in, etc. Then there can often issue a lot of unproductive conversation around said unknown thing, whether it is one way or another, true or false, etc. -- even when it could easily be resolved some other way. I find I have to consciously restrict this tendency when interacting with other ego types because we will sort of reinforce each other's tendency to do this. Has anyone else experienced this?

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    The combination with Ti makes it annoying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I've noticed that in interactions with other Alpha NTs (and possibly Delta NFs too) there seems to be a tendency to "talk in circles." What I mean is that often somebody will raise a question about something unknown / speculative / uncertain / in the future without having enough information to determine the answer. Often figuring out the answer requires more than just discussion, it requires actually doing something (), going out and talking to someone else, waiting until later or until more information comes in, etc. Then there can often issue a lot of unproductive conversation around said unknown thing, whether it is one way or another, true or false, etc. -- even when it could easily be resolved some other way. I find I have to consciously restrict this tendency when interacting with other ego types because we will sort of reinforce each other's tendency to do this. Has anyone else experienced this?

    Any specific examples of stories to share where you witnessed this?
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by chips and underwear View Post
    Any specific examples of stories to share where you witnessed this?
    I'd rather not get into specifics. It's something I've seen a lot though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I've noticed that in interactions with other Alpha NTs (and possibly Delta NFs too) there seems to be a tendency to "talk in circles." What I mean is that often somebody will raise a question about something unknown / speculative / uncertain / in the future without having enough information to determine the answer. Often figuring out the answer requires more than just discussion, it requires actually doing something (), going out and talking to someone else, waiting until later or until more information comes in, etc. Then there can often issue a lot of unproductive conversation around said unknown thing, whether it is one way or another, true or false, etc. -- even when it could easily be resolved some other way. I find I have to consciously restrict this tendency when interacting with other ego types because we will sort of reinforce each other's tendency to do this. Has anyone else experienced this?
    Yes! I once argued with an ILE friend of mine for AT LEAST half an hour about whether or not sex work was decriminalised in our state before either of us thought to look this easily searchable fact up online. This happens often with my IEE father as well.

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    Talking in circles may be a misperception. N-types focus more on the connections among facts rather than the facts themselves. If one has 5 discrete facts then there might be as many as 120 connections so to fully describe each fact in a relative manner can seem circular because one has to come back to the same fact several times to describe different connections. LIIs and EIIs tend to do the permutations internally and don't voice them to others like some other types; and LIIs can better summarize their so-called circular thinking.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Circular, or more like topologically where the form is not exact but edges are not discontinous forming possibly deformed circle like structure or something.. I think there are lots of mathematics proofs where everything just seems very circular without actually being it. Is it more like a spiral field?
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    Here's a picture of a circle that's not a circle FakeCircle1.png

    Ironically made with tangents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    Here's a picture of a circle that's not a circle FakeCircle1.png

    Ironically made with tangents.
    This is kind of weird but I was just in meditation and saw something similar except it started off black.


    Today at 1:54 PM
    With my eyes closed, I saw like an hole opening up, fading from black to misty gray. finally there was a direct circular opening in the middle. through the hole I saw a long brown couch against a white wall. I followed the image from one side to the other but when I tried to get a look at the whole room it faded. I am going to try again. so weird

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    I have noticed this as well. Conversations are self propagating as each avenue is explored.

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    i know exactly what you're talking about. it stresses me out because it's like there are no actions, and no help finding the actions to take, by those disinclined to act... and it all just makes me feel more caught in inertia. then if "actions" are passed to me, they are passed in more of a nebulous manner. anyway it all makes me feel like actions are all too far away and i can't get to them, and it's quite discouraging when in general i become stranded in inaction.

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    yes, yes, very much a thing I do. I also do other things among this. Do you know how many things I can do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I've noticed that in interactions with other Alpha NTs (and possibly Delta NFs too) there seems to be a tendency to "talk in circles." What I mean is that often somebody will raise a question about something unknown / speculative / uncertain / in the future without having enough information to determine the answer. Often figuring out the answer requires more than just discussion, it requires actually doing something (), going out and talking to someone else, waiting until later or until more information comes in, etc. Then there can often issue a lot of unproductive conversation around said unknown thing, whether it is one way or another, true or false, etc. -- even when it could easily be resolved some other way. I find I have to consciously restrict this tendency when interacting with other ego types because we will sort of reinforce each other's tendency to do this. Has anyone else experienced this?
    Yes. I think IxEs do this to a greater extent than xIIs, but IxEs are also more likely to do something about the situation at hand (greater Se).

    I do have to restrict this tendency in myself when my main concerns are to get tangible things done. However, if your goal is idea generation or just an intellectually stimulating conversation, it's best to let the "talking in circles" run its course.

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    I think one aspect of it is that you attempt to unravel a problem into workable strands and think about them (analyse and expand, go from specifics to generalities, and back and forth etc.), before perhaps ending up with several conclusions or maybe just one. The whole process often means you find yourself covering ground that someone else had mentioned (and perhaps by a different route too), but which you previously thought was unimportant, irrelevant, or not fitting. This may lead to extended discursions, which may or may not be fruitful.

    Another aspect which has perhaps been touched on in my previous point, is that there can be cycles of thought and discussion, with peaks and lulls, which can often be tied to the environment. The produce of such activity may seem random, but they may be tied to the appearance of a new piece of information. Perhaps this could be described in and terms. The novel Finnegans Wake begins with the end of a sentence, and ends with the beginning of the sentence (the novel is probably meant to be re-read ad infinitum).

    While I do not agree with the attribution of Gulenko's Forms of Cognition to the 16 types, I wonder if one or more of them describe the process described in the OP (?).

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    I don't really talk to anyone for very long so I don't really experience this much. Sometimes on other forums I get into debates with other forum members about things like what game developers should change in a video game and what not, but fortunately my limited patience keeps such discussions from going on for too long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    I don't really talk to anyone for very long so I don't really experience this much. Sometimes on other forums I get into debates with other forum members about things like what game developers should in video game and what not, but fortunately my limited patience keeps such discussions from going on for too long.
    It's OK conversation takes many shapes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    I don't really talk to anyone for very long so I don't really experience this much. Sometimes on other forums I get into debates with other forum members about things like what game developers should change in a video game and what not, but fortunately my limited patience keeps such discussions from going on for too long.
    Just out of curiosity and no this isn't a battle type comment, just genuinly curious. What makes you consider yourself an extroverted LIE type? I say this because of some former comments of yours as well as your TIM statement saying 4D Te. "I don't really talk to anyone for very long" is not, in my understanding of LIE, a statement that could be generally said of them. Sorry for any thread derail, I just wanted to clarify what I was seeing so that I could understand it more. No obligation to commit to a discussion if you don't want to.

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    I dont see that initial example as talking in circles. Just, kinda figuring something out aloud. Talking in circles, to me, is when someone isnt direct with the point theyre trying to make. Whether its because they dont want to offend, theyre feeling people out, or just a day to day pussyfoot, they tip toe to their point slowly.

    By my understanding of of the term, I dont think Ne really does that much. Certainly less than Ni.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    Yes. I do it often.

    It frustrates EIEs and some LIEs. One EIE often says to me: "Stop, I'm sequential!" EIEs have order, action or purpose woven into their conversations- it must be the Se and Ni.

    I don't talk for the sense of order or action necessarily.
    I am talking to discover, learn, and for sake of curiosity. There is no concrete purpose to a lot of what I am discussing in conversation except maybe Fe building and to learn something new. Which means without an agenda or purpose if I am having fun the conversation will be quite circular. No real definitive end.

    I once had an IEI even say to me she didn't understand the purpose of a lot of what I said. I suppose that is an example of supervision more than anything.

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    I've noticed something that seems like long-winded in Ne (like really long-winded) maybe it's similar to what OP means (?); actually some Si types do this as well ime so maybe a Si/Ne thing.
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    *looks stoically into the distance*

    Ne is about the journey, not the destination.

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    With my thought process, and my ne, I tend to think of certain points, and what other people could say to contradict these points. Or I look at the facts but also the nonsensical aspect of the situation and mix the two. I may not come to a precise conclusion when my brain does this, but I see multiple possible outcomes. I may stick with one that I think is best but I think to myself "bla bla bla could be a good second option..." I think of ways I could argue back. In real life, I freeze up and am not so great with debate but I can kind of debate myself.

    If I know a lot about a topic, I can kind of spout out info if I've thought it out a lot. And then, it gets into the endless whatifs about the situation, especially if it is a topic of interest. When I'm comfortable enough with people I will bring up these questions that don't have a definitive answer because it's just fun to mess around with the whatif.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Froody Blue Gem View Post
    With my thought process, and my ne, I tend to think of certain points, and what other people could say to contradict these points. Or I look at the facts but also the nonsensical aspect of the situation and mix the two. I may not come to a precise conclusion when my brain does this, but I see multiple possible outcomes. I may stick with one that I think is best but I think to myself "bla bla bla could be a good second option..." I think of ways I could argue back. In real life, I freeze up and am not so great with debate but I can kind of debate myself.

    If I know a lot about a topic, I can kind of spout out info if I've thought it out a lot. And then, it gets into the endless whatifs about the situation, especially if it is a topic of interest. When I'm comfortable enough with people I will bring up these questions that don't have a definitive answer because it's just fun to mess around with the whatif.
    A good post, imo, and I agree with the bold; IRL I have sometimes withdrawn from debates even if i have more and more accurate information as well as believed that i am/was correct.

    Tbh i am not interested in so much as even starting a conversation if i don't have either a) a real genuine interest in it or b) have researched/thought about the subject matter significantly - and still i manage to talk myself into withdrawing from perfectly valid positions/points. Whereas i've seen people i know go tooth and nail at it even if they are at best miserable in terms of quality and quantity of information that they provide in the course of a debate.
    "Inasmuch as it is nothing but pure communicability, every face, even the most noble and beautiful, is always suspended on the edge of an abyss"

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    All types seem to talk in circles when they're confused or uncertain. Now, most Ep-types like to metaphorically throw hand-grenades in the water to see what surfaces; this is an aspect that contributes to them having innate potential to become excellent explorers or experimenters; however, this can be really annoying in the boardroom when everyone is trying to solve an immediate problem....

    a.k.a. I/O

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    My ILI friend sometimes expresses exasperation about how I tend to discuss things with my LII friend. A particularly stand-out comment was when she once said "Oh my god, you just keep repeating the same things for hours". Without going too much into details, to us alphas in that particular instance it was an exploration of different, if nuanced, aspects of the problem, and validation that changing those aspects does (or sometimes does not) significantly alter the outcome. To the ILI friend, it was a torture by one thousand cuts, as she didn't see what was to be gained by such mental experimentation.
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    @Carnaedy I certainly don't like protracted discussions so I usually find an excuse to stop; like shopping, I prefer it to be quick and effective. In my experience, many ILI and SLI seem to like beating dead horses but only on topics in which they're interested, while ILEs never seem to stay on topic long enough to be effective. Your friend doesn't seem LII unless there's some other factor overriding normal behaviour - like sexual attraction or youth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    @Carnaedy I certainly don't like protracted discussions so I usually find an excuse to stop; like shopping, I prefer it to be quick and effective. In my experience, many ILI and SLI seem to like beating dead horses but only on topics in which they're interested, while ILEs never seem to stay on topic long enough to be effective. Your friend doesn't seem LII unless there's some other factor overriding normal behaviour - like sexual attraction or youth.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Seems like you never met LII in real life or just only observed them. LII are not robots, if they find certain topic interesting, LII can discuss it, objectively, looking at every angle, always doubting everything, open to everything. (And if you want gamma oppinion, i prefer facts, not 1000 posibilities)

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    @Veromoni I would certainly agree that most LIIs are not robotic because we usually dislike routine but we do often get rather routinised in the way that we approach most things. The numerous ILIs that I've had work for me tended to bring in too many facts and go into so much detail that they had difficulty producing a final product (not knowing when to lay off the engineer and get into production) unlike the LIIs. The ILIs were far more communicative but seemed to argue for argument sake whereas we LIIs wanted to stop as soon as we had the information we needed or achieved what we wanted. I've talked at length but usually with purpose, and I've had occasion to stop most all types from talking in circles......

    a.k.a. I/O
    Last edited by Rebelondeck; 07-03-2019 at 11:00 AM.

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    Same person in work environment and among friends, family, loved ones act different. Carnaedy's friend indeed is LII, i know for sure, she(LII) is my sister. I just wanted to tell that you can't judge type, just because you heard LII had a long and fun discussion. And their discussion isn't just rambling something for arguments sake, idk, all angles and stuff, to me - it's basically the same, i don't see a difference, no new important info, just some useless stuff. I get tired very quickly with talks like that, it's a waste of time for ILI, but for ILE and LII it's some fun (i guess) time

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