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Thread: How do you feel around your benefactor?

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    Default How do you feel around your benefactor?

    Share your thoughts...
    Last edited by Iwantpeace; 09-11-2020 at 04:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sorrowsofyoungwerther View Post
    I have a benefactor friendship that I feel overwhelmed in.
    The ESTp kind of bulldozes over my thoughts and opinions and I don't feel appreciated or valued. Although the friend reaches out to me and seems concerned. It's a confusing dynamic.

    How do you find benefactor relations?
    The same. I like ESFJs until we have to deal with issues regarding ethics. Then it's you stay on your turf, I on mine. Combine 4D Se with Ti valuing and yuck. This is not to say, I hate them or whatever only that issues regarding ethics disgust me when it involves ESFJs. I am so-last and a rational subtype so there's that. Si-ESFJs are more grating.

    (Again, I do have ESFJ friends and family but I loathe what I feel is control regarding ethics.)

    I am very curious as to how my beneficiaries view me; despite differing world views, my friendships with ENTJs have been smoother, I believe. I think when perceiving functions differing, you're less likely to be in each other's business *shrugs* .

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    We get on supremely well (instinct compatibility helps, he's So/Sx), although I feel he is sometimes hm... not driven and genuine enough. Mostly the latter, since I can trigger his ambition through mine.

    He behaves strangely to distract himself, not paying attention to my strivings. He does back me up sometimes, which I appreciate. He can fix my social blunders as well. In lax conversation, everything is okay, the flow is good. Talking about social matters is nice, we share the same interests and vocabulary in that regard. He complains more, I try to find new practical ways. He's about ten times faster when understanding something, which upsets me a little since I want to keep up. I sometimes change topics to take charge. Other than that, I admire his quick wit and cheer for him. I tend to compliment, instruct and encourage him often because I see his talents. I also organize most of our partner work but that's not a problem, I just like the right type of feedback.

    When texting, he sometimes doesn't answer without explaining why?? He keeps a lot of opinions to himself, it seems, while I am very straightforward. It's cute how easily distracted he is, but that also has its pitfalls. I sometimes feel that he is hypocritical, saying yes on the outside while being like "nah..." on the inside. I'd rather have an honest person instead of a manufactured nice one that doesn't show resistance.

    The cool thing about our collaboration/friendship, he is such a social butterfly. I get acquainted with ten new people each day when we're together. His network includes many people that I miraculously like and who miraculously like me, birds of a feather indeed.

    All in all, a literal benefactor to me.

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    It depends on how considerate, forgiving, and generally positively predisposed my Benefactor is to me.

    Generally in the past, I commonly would feel the odd desire to impress them, "make it up to them", without me actually being in debt with them.
    When the Benefactor was male, I'd usually admire him, and in some cases it would turn into a low-key obsession of sorts (in short, limerence).

    When your Benefactor praises you for what you are doing, or appreciates you, it can be quite a confidence and mood boost.
    And on the other hand, it can be quite hurtful when they don't.

    I find that even when my Benefactor held back initially, I'd try even more to make them like me.
    It seems like the Beneficiary is commonly in the position of the "biggest fan" around the Benefactor.

    Having had a couple of negative experiences with my Benefactor in the past, I have become more wary of them.
    I have noticed that people like me will become sort of bitter or cautious around their Benefactor.
    Especially when the Benefactor looks down on the Beneficiary for what they deem to be some kind of "incompetency" in certain areas (mostly pertaining to the Beneficiary's PoLR, I reckon).
    This kind of interaction is rather dissatisfying, and can give me the desire to just avoid them.

    P.S: The subtype probably matters here a lot, too. It is always much more difficult to get along well with an ESI-Fi for a longer time.
    Last edited by Olimpia; 10-29-2016 at 02:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorrowsofyoungwerther View Post
    I have a benefactor friendship that I feel overwhelmed in.
    The ESTp kind of bulldozes over my thoughts and opinions and I don't feel appreciated or valued. Although the friend reaches out to me and seems concerned. It's a confusing dynamic.
    Somehow this doesn't give me the impression they are your Benefactor, and that this is perhaps rather a case of a vs valuing clash.
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    @Chae, eh, I see this with my Se valuing friends; if EII/IEEs keep opinions to themselves, it's because they don't really care to contribute, it's not important, shrugs. When it is though, we take time to take action; it's something that gets better with age because then we are more sure of how to handle those situations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sorrowsofyoungwerther View Post
    How do you feel around your benefactor?
    I like IEIs, they are generally friendly and thoughtful people, sometimes amusing too. There have been a few that seemed a bit self-absorbed to me but generally we get along well. "Bulldozing" might be specific to SLEs

    More generally it seems like the beneficiary can feel a bit unnecessary or ignored, since the benefactor "can do everything they do", or at least they think they can. Yet, they often end up using the beneficiary's abilities out of convenience, giving them errands so to speak.

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    Usually I'm a little intimidated by my benefactor; I get the feeling that they run a lot 'smoother' than I do socially and I end up feeling very awkward as a result. I have one benefactor I'm friends with that I don't feel intimidated by but I think this is partly due to factors that have resulted in him having lower confidence than the average person.

    My relationship with him is good; he's very warm and we joke around a lot, and we can share our observations on other people together. He likes me because he thinks I'm understanding, open and caring, and he thinks that I value my friendships but he's of the belief that I'm less attentive to them than he is. I like him too, and I think he can be very understanding, but he isn't capable of extending this understanding when people are cold and his feelings are being hurt as a result, even though that person may not necessarily have done anything wrong. He's much more disciplined than I am and much more capable of compartmentalisation, and I feel like he is better at saying 'no' when he needs to. I once purposefully provoked him regarding a point that played on Fe valuing/devaluing (I was in the middle of explaining socionics) and he reacted very predictably.

    As for the negatives, I end up lecturing him every time we have a conversation about ethics; he doesn't seem to have great depth of understanding when it comes to groups of people who are marginalised, and he's very much focused on himself when we get into these narratives. I would not depend on him to come through for me if it involved inconveniencing himself, but I also know he wouldn't expect this of me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sorrowsofyoungwerther View Post
    I have a benefactor friendship that I feel overwhelmed in.
    The ESTp kind of bulldozes over my thoughts and opinions and I don't feel appreciated or valued. Although the friend reaches out to me and seems concerned. It's a confusing dynamic.

    How do you find benefactor relations?
    Exactly. IEE, my sister's husband, tries to force his values and beliefs on me, and tries to tell me I'm wrong. But when in trouble, he tries to be helpful, in his own way, which doesn't help much. Still better than supervision

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    I like IEIs, they are generally friendly and thoughtful people, sometimes amusing too. There have been a few that seemed a bit self-absorbed to me but generally we get along well. "Bulldozing" might be specific to SLEs

    More generally it seems like the beneficiary can feel a bit unnecessary or ignored, since the benefactor "can do everything they do", or at least they think they can. Yet, they often end up using the beneficiary's abilities out of convenience, giving them errands so to speak.
    Are you a Muslim? It is interesting what you put as your signature, a quote from Qur'an

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheHiddenJack View Post
    Are you a Muslim? It is interesting what you put as your signature, a quote from Qur'an
    Yes, but this thread is probably not the right place to discuss that. You can send me a Visitor message or PM
    Last edited by thehotelambush; 11-10-2016 at 06:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Yes, but this thread is probably not the right place to discuss that. You can send me a Visitor message or PM
    Me too . Not that it is anyone's business and it should not be.

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    Like I'm valuable to someone. Which triggers my paranoia, since anyone who outwardly seems to admire me is probably just manipulating me.

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    I feel amused and entertained, but also like they are being a bitch- that they could probably tone down their gamma bitteryness and be more soft and likeable.

    Your benefactor is very entertaining for you. When LIIs are around me, they light up and are really amused by my sense of humor. I too, love the sense of humor of the ESIs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sorrowsofyoungwerther View Post
    I have a benefactor friendship that I feel overwhelmed in.
    The ESTp kind of bulldozes over my thoughts and opinions and I don't feel appreciated or valued. Although the friend reaches out to me and seems concerned. It's a confusing dynamic.
    This is exactly how my EIE describes our dynamic whenever we get onto any serious topic.

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    We should be careful not to over-extrapolate from how we feel about one benefactor and assume that is how we would always interact with any benefactors. As others have mentioned, there are subtype variations, not to mention enneagram, instinctual stackings, and overall maturity. A sample size of one may provide useful anecdotes, but we should not assume insights/feelings from that relationship would generalize to all benefactors.

    ILIs/benefactors are some of my best friends, second only to EIIs/identities. I have a few close SEI/beneficiary friends, and I find them to be good and trustworthy but not particularly exciting. By contrast, I seem to find ILIs very exciting; I tend to admire them a lot. The friends from college I keep in the most contact with are two EIIs and an ILI. I have no idea why, but I find this ILI hilarious. He's basically the only person who can regularly crack me up to the point of tears. It's never from something that would be particularly funny to others, but his mannerisms and slight awkwardness make some things he says sooooo funny to me. For example, once we were having dinner at a restaurant, and the waitress gave us some new bread and was about to take our half-eaten bread away. He was like, wait, I'll eat that too. The waitress looked a little confused but left the bread. There was an awkward silence, and then she left, and I started cracking up.

    I do find him a bit too ethically rigid. For example, he has this policy that if he talks about person A to person B, he must tell person A what he said. This just seems unnecessary to me. First, he goes out of his way to tell person A what he said, even if person A doesn't care. Second, there are plenty of non-malicious reasons not to tell person A what was said, including many reasons for person A's benefit. Additionally, once he even took it upon himself to tell person A what persons B and C said to each other about person A, which he heard about through person D. He was so removed from being directly involved that he told person A an exaggerated, more hurtful version of what was originally said. Plus, he really should have just told persons B and C to man up and tell person A--it wasn't his business at all to directly intervene.

    That being said, he is still one of my favorite friends. I trust him a lot and immensely enjoy our discussions about the meaning of life, figuring out what we want and how to get it, and various intellectual topics.

    I currently have two good ILI grad school friends I like a lot. They are dating, and we hang out just the three of us quite a bit, so they call me their daughter. Again, they can be a bit too ethically rigid, but they mostly just argue with each other about morals, not with me. I usually can see where each is coming from and just wish they would stop arguing, cause there is usually no way they can reach an agreement on what they're debating. I do like that they care a lot about being moral though.

    I started out with an LII dissertation adviser and switched to one whom I believe to be ILI. I love how efficient our meetings are and how clear she is with the next steps I should take! It's hard to give directions like that for things as nebulous as producing research/new knowledge. She just gets me, y'know? Like, for our meeting today, I prepared a set of five questions about something that is coming up but that we haven't discussed in our previous weekly meetings yet, and she actually preemptively answered all of them before I could ask even one.

    This is not to say I get along with/like all ILIs. There is another ILI classmate whom I find to be annoyingly self-centered/selfish, and I once dated an ILI sp/so whose self-preservation instinct was just sooooo strong I couldn't take it.

    There was an ILI (I think sx/so) I dated whom I liked a lot. He taught me about a lot of cool things, was super smart, and dressed well. We somehow didn't connect emotionally, though, and he ultimately chose another girl over me, who values/is good at Se.

    Oh, there's also an ILI I'm kind of currently romantically evaluating. I love how he shifts my perspective in unexpected ways and how he cares about poor people. There are some things about him that don't satisfy my social instinct, though. Anyway, he's been on a months-long trip to the other side of the world, so I don't have to decide anytime soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DBlackGold View Post
    From what I've seen in other people, the benefactor can maybe give the beneficiary something beneficial? But usually the benefactor causes vague irritation while —to the benefactor— the beneficiary is attractive. This blows up when the benefactor is finally like screw this you don't even turn on the lights in my mind. Ftr I think this is a less common friendship than supervision

    /limited information
    Wouldn't it be the other way around? The beneficiary is the one who is supposed to benefit from the benefactor.

    I think one of my friendships is like this right now. There's a friend who seems to think i'm really cool and wants to be besties, but she kind of irritates me, although we do resonate on some things. It does in fact feel like she has some alterior motive in seeking friendship with me because she seems so overly motivated to get in good graces with me.
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    They seem to love me for no reason (visible to me) and feel compelled to get close. For the most part I find them pleasing company. They are reliable and I value that a lot, but they often lack in imagination and volition, which is why I don't feel compelled to interact with them myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DBlackGold View Post
    I know how it's supposed to go, but that doesn't match up with how it usually plays out. If I tried to explain with model A, I'd say the DS function is deeply unconscious and the activity function is pleasant, maybe
    (disclaimer.. my activity function is either Fi or Si so maybe this pleasant thing doesn't apply to decisive rationals or Si creative)

    *ulterior

    Yeah I don't think anyone likes that..I mean mankind is designed to feel drawn to like darkness and evil or something, but I'm not sure this is socionics. Anyway you're lucky..I'd so take a friend right now, even sycophantic
    Oh yeah thanks for the spelling correction!

    And yeah I hear ya, on both points.

    I'm not particularly inclined to reject her friendship since she hasn't done anything bad to me, but I do feel the need to periodically keep the psychological distance in check. In other words, some things I'd do for other friends i feel more comfortable around, I might restrain myself from doing with her, only to not mislead her into thinking we're besties (which is what she wants).
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    I'm not particularly inclined to reject her friendship since she hasn't done anything bad to me, but I do feel the need to periodically keep the psychological distance in check. In other words, some things I'd do for other friends i feel more comfortable around, I might restrain myself from doing with her, only to not mislead her into thinking we're besties (which is what she wants).
    I feel sorry for this person you are talking about, @Suz. I mean I know you have the right to complain about her- but I was thinking that maybe she was confusing you being her 'bestie' because of your tendency to give people this positive and uplifting energy when you walk into the room. And she's then sadly being too naive/idealistic/magical thinking and mistaking your gift to do that as some sorta sign that you are amazingly good friends.

    I think I might have a similiar effect on people- I've noticed during fights the other person will often tear up and say 'I thought we were friends!' and I didn't really... like I have pessimistic issues with the whole friend thing too as everybody knows, but it's like Fe can be this happy drug for people that they need. And I do value friendships ... but I am also so mindful about being stabbed in the back.


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    truthfully,

    [emo moment]I'm so used to being treated like shit that if somebody is nice to me I think they are being sarcastic. I don't believe it.[/emo moment]

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    I have always been somewhat irritated by my so-called benefactor-type. All, and there were many, seemed to have tried to oversell advice that I didn't really ask for or need, and were seemly miffed when I did not act upon it. I think benefit, supervision, quasi-identical and mirror (the bottom) are the worst relationships, where one party thinks the other should do or think differently.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullets View Post


    I feel sorry for this person you are talking about, @Suz. I mean I know you have the right to complain about her- but I was thinking that maybe she was confusing you being her 'bestie' because of your tendency to give people this positive and uplifting energy when you walk into the room. And she's then sadly being too naive/idealistic/magical thinking and mistaking your gift to do that as some sorta sign that you are amazingly good friends.

    I think I might have a similiar effect on people- I've noticed during fights the other person will often tear up and say 'I thought we were friends!' and I didn't really... like I have pessimistic issues with the whole friend thing too as everybody knows, but it's like Fe can be this happy drug for people that they need. And I do value friendships ... but I am also so mindful about being stabbed in the back.

    That could be part of it for sure, but also I think she's the kind of person who sees value in making useful connections for her social & career standing (she has actually outright said so in the course of our conversations). For context, she's a student and i'm a professor. She's also told me that she tends to be friends with men and not so much women, because she's found women to be backstabbing or not sincere or something. So, since she finds me to be a very benign individual (which I am -- I wouldn't backstab her or anything), she's really excited to have a female friend and wants to be at a sister level. (Although I think she may be a bit manipulative with the whole "women hate me" thing, because she does have female friends). She says stuff like "women get jealous because I dress up", and i'm kind of like.. come on... it seems either delusional or manipulative to me. She also keeps commenting on how if we do such and such it'll make us look cool, which is seriously eyeroll-inducing for me. It's not an age thing because i've always scorned that sort of attitude, even when i was her age and younger.

    I'm happy to be friends, but i just dont feel like being at a sister level with her at the moment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I think benefit, supervision, quasi-identical and mirror (the bottom) are the worst relationships, where one party thinks the other should do or think differently.
    You think mirror is the worst relationship?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    You think mirror is the worst relationship?
    Yes and a wrote an article about it:

    http://www.socionics.com/articles/thestrength.html

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Yes and a wrote an article about it:

    http://www.socionics.com/articles/thestrength.html

    a.k.a. I/O
    You also rate Super-ego as being the second-best, based on the fact that they have the last three Jungian dichotomies opposite (hence why mirror is rated so low).

    This contradicts the theory of quadra values and confirms that your understanding has nothing to do with classical socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    You also rate Super-ego as being the second-best, based on the fact that they have the last three Jungian dichotomies opposite (hence why mirror is rated so low).

    This contradicts the theory of quadra values and confirms that your understanding has nothing to do with classical socionics.
    You are correct. I think the Socionics classifications are good but the models are wrong......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by sorrowsofyoungwerther View Post
    ........Interestingly I think IEEs are pretty cool people with a lot of great ideas.........
    I think all types have a lot to offer but two good friends do not necessarily make a good working partnership. I've had the opportunity to mitigate a lot of type interaction in work situations where libido is not as much of a factor. I've seen longtime friends become enemies when they've had to work together; before, both would have sworn the other would have made an ideal partner. The disharmony usually revolves around miscommunication, differing work processes and divergent measures of success; it can be startling to realize that talking together as best buds is not always communication. One can really admire a personality until one has to work together to produce something truly important to both; the ease within a close relationship, without having had this experience, cannot be used as a measure for long-term compatibility.

    a.ka. I/O

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    Do you think temperment is a better indicator of relational success than classical Socionics relationship predictions? @Rebelondeck

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    Quote Originally Posted by muhtempus View Post
    Do you think temperment is a better indicator of relational success than classical Socionics relationship predictions? @Rebelondeck
    There are aspects of my concept of temperament which I find are good indicators but this would not be the traditional model to which you would be accustomed. I find that j-types (output oriented) have better working relationships with j-types, and p-types (input oriented) with p-types. Also, a mix of "like-minded" Ejs will often fight each other for control, Ips will often throw barbs and be paranoid of one another, Eps will rarely march in unison and Ijs will hardly ever listen to one another unless there are distinct areas of expertise with no overlap. Team members have to bring unique skills to the table or a unique perspective (N vs S and F vs T) and not tread on someone else's turf. The key to strong sustained relationships is need (as per Maslov); there must be a common perception of the value of all team members, little to no overlap and a common direction.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    I like them. I tend to value their opinions, even though they can seem a little dumb sometimes. I feel slightly motivated to make a good impression on them. I also tend to feel slightly protective of them, even of the guys.

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    not unpleasant, but not deserving a trust
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    I've yet to encounter any of my supposed benefactors to be honest, but I'm pretty sure I know that I am exactly that in regards to someone else I know. He seems... irrationally happy to see me and relishes the opportunity to interact with me and to be honest I kind of like that with a caveat. I don't mind this rather positive attention and interaction, but I feel like I'm essentially unworthy of it. I'm just being me, why is that so apparently good?

    I'm not exactly the most charismatic person you've ever met and hell, I'm an ILI who has adopted the policy of eternal honesty in all things (within limits of course). I know I've said something off putting in their presence at least once but he's never seemed to notice my likely somewhat frequent social faux-pas given that. As all who know me personally know, "holding back" is a thing I don't do once certain conditions are met. He meets those, I don't hold back around him, and yet he keeps earnestly smiling.

    Perhaps that's because he's never done anything around me that pissed me off or I found worthy of derision. That's a new line of inquiry. How would y'all feel if your benefactor got mad at ya or otherwise directly insulted you? I've yet to read that paper. How do insults from one type/relation tend to translate to the other?

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    Who else's benefactor is a wealthy Australian ex-convict?

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    They kind of feel very similar sometimes and sometimes not. Same with beneficiary.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iwantpeace View Post
    Share your thoughts...
    It's complicated... It's like you can learn a lot from them but as you learn you start to feel smaller and smaller.... It's different from duality where you can both learn from each other.

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    I’m a socionist! I make shit work by strategizing. If my mom and I get into it I send her to my Se pushing aunt next door lol you have to learn to make strategies in relationships when things get bothersome otherwise we won’t live side by side and in an increasingly populated world you need more patience
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Yes and a wrote an article about it:

    http://www.socionics.com/articles/thestrength.html

    a.k.a. I/O
    I know you’ve said before that you think a person’s type doesn’t fully settle until their mid 20s? I was wondering if you think this would has an impact on the strength of the ITR? For example it seems like you see more benefit or kindred relationships in younger people than older. Also, in reference to the article, do you think that some of the ITR, regardless of strength are more difficult to start up or maintain? For example contrary, kindred and illusionary don’t seem that common in older couples, although I haven’t observed loads and loads of couples. Perhaps it feels more difficult to develop trust with some types or you feel more bored of them easily.

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    With regard to difficult ITR, ideally I would spend some free time or even free moments at work with a variety of types. Life might get a boring otherwise. However, life can get pretty stressful and people’s life situations can be difficult. I guess these things might sap your energy and it ends up being easier to stick to mixing with types that are more stable ITR and more mutually beneficial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    I know you’ve said before that you think a person’s type doesn’t fully settle until their mid 20s? I was wondering if you think this would has an impact on the strength of the ITR? For example it seems like you see more benefit or kindred relationships in younger people than older. Also, in reference to the article, do you think that some of the ITR, regardless of strength are more difficult to start up or maintain? For example contrary, kindred and illusionary don’t seem that common in older couples, although I haven’t observed loads and loads of couples. Perhaps it feels more difficult to develop trust with some types or you feel more bored of them easily.
    So long as there's no real commitment to common goals, most types can be close friends; for example, mirrors might have a lot of common interests to discuss and could be best buds so long as they don't have joint responsibility for something important. Younger people tend to have fewer things that they deem important so the probably of conflict is less likely - although not zero. Many youth allow libido to take over, thus clouding all cognition; it's only when they've been burnt sufficiently that cognition might start to control the animalistic imperatives. People of the same temperament seem to gravitate toward one another as childhood friends. As they grow older, common interests seem to be more the draw and because of this, dual relationships are usually very hard to start unless both partners are "hot". Concerning your last few words, many IEIs seem to gravitate toward the image rather than the person so they often wake up with people with whom they easily get bored.

    a.k.a. I/O

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