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Thread: Fi Seeking in LSEs (ESTjs)

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    Default Fi Seeking in LSEs (ESTjs)

    I've been meaning to write this for some time now.

    I used to watch how LSE would apply principles of proper behavior in society. When I went out with an LSE once to a chicken and waffle place I listened to him talk specifically about what he observed. With regards to how other people behaved he said and did almost nothing. When I would eat something with my fingers he would make off hand remarks like "haven't you attacked those bones enough" or "why do you continue to pick at that chicken?" I would look around me and see if others ate chicken like me and I would tell the LSE, other people are eating the chicken same way yet your focus on how I'm not doing something properly is only directed at me. He would say "yes, because you're the only one who is here with me." I stopped to think about this from my Fi point of view. It was harsh but my Fi with Ne understood this and it glossed over me but the reason why I said he only noticed me in this behavior is because I later came to find out was because of Fi that he couldn't do. Fi observes the trends of society. The trend of eating chicken was with one's hands. He being LSE was raised to eat chicken with his fork. He said "that's not how I was raised." Then it got me thinking "oh course he would not notice the trends of society because he's preprogramed to eat with a fork so all new information is not processing." I understood what Fi does then.

    Edit: To add he got very uncomfortable and tense while I was continually eating the chicken with my fingers and this tenseness only raised my awareness of it and stress level to correct my behavior but first I had to reason with him about what thing he was not observing

    Because I'm so keen about human interactions I observe what is appropriate by other people. The expression of elation from eating a delicious meal while having eyes glazed over would be seen completely normal by all members of that immediate atmosphere except the LSE who operates by his learned behavior. He then when on to say "don't make those looks with your eyes like you are high or something." I said I'm just expressing how good this was and everyone here would agree or understand what that expression means. He had to stop and look at others to see if they noticed me. I told him "it's completely normal for this society and everyone understand what this look means, but you don't because you expect me to behave in a way that's already interpreted as 'proper' or 'fitting' without understanding this society." He looked at me with astonishment and looked at others again. I said "see no one else minds because that is normal to them." I feel like i help LSE look outside themselves.

    Edit: again any behavior that he found odd or resistance to change my behavior in public made him extremely tense to the point of wanting to reprimand me or hurry up and leave the establishment.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 10-16-2016 at 11:45 AM.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Informal institutions (i.e. social norms) are in the domain of Ti (and to some extent, Fe), not Fi. Fi is much more individualistic in attitude. It does not so much evaluate other people's behavior from a framework of social norms, but from an understanding of personal character. E.g. someone might make a joke that goes against a social norm, but it is not being held against the person because it is understood that the joke did not originate in bad intention or ignorance. Such are the evaluations Fi makes.

    That being said, we can also conclude what the problem is in LSE's in this example: an inability to make Fi judgements, which leaves them no other means than to assess other people's actions from the perspective of Te or Ti. It is indeed not uncommon for LSE's to stick to conventions they've acquired in the past, and keep on judging things according to those conventions.

    Note that Fi-seeking does not truly mean that one is actively seeking Fi. We are never aware that we are lacking our seeking function or are in need of it, until we come under its spell.

    Ergo, what you are describing here, does not originate in your Fi-base, but your Ti-role. If we assume, for the sake of discussion, that you indeed are EII. Your conclusions are right, your interpretation of the reasons why is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    He being LSE was raised to eat chicken with his fork.
    I've always thought it amazing how Americans are capable of eating stuff with just a fork, without the assistance of a knife. But somehow I also had the impression that this form of etiquette was nothing else than institutionalized behavior originating in boorish European immigrants.
    Last edited by consentingadult; 10-16-2016 at 10:30 AM.
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    That makes me consider thinking of duality as a cultural balancing of two people. More data is needed, what other Fi-seeking occasions did you observe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Informal institutions (i.e. social norms) are in the domain of Ti (and to some extent, Fe), not Fi. Fi is much more individualistic in attitude. It does not so much evaluate other people's behavior from a framework of social norms, but from an understanding of personal character. E.g. someone might make a joke that goes against a social norm, but it is not being held against the person because it is understood that the joke did not originate in bad intention or ignorance. Such are the evaluations Fi makes.

    That being said, we can also conclude what the problem is in LSE's in this example: an inability to make Fi judgements, which leaves them no other means than to assess other people's actions from the perspective of Te or Ti. It is indeed not uncommon for LSE's to stick to conventions they've acquired in the past, and keep on judging things according to those conventions.

    Note that Fi-seeking does not truly mean that one is actively seeking Fi. We are never aware that we are lacking our seeking function or are in need of it, until we come under its spell.

    Ergo, what you are describing here, does not originate in your Fi-base, but your Ti-role. If we assume, for the sake of discussion, that you indeed are EII. Your conclusions are right, your interpretation of the reasons why is not.



    I've always thought it amazing how Americans are capable of eating stuff with just a fork, without the assistance of a knife. But somehow I also had the impression that this form of etiquette was nothing else than institutionalized behavior originating in boorish European immigrants.
    No I'm correct and that's why he was surprised
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    That makes me consider thinking of duality as a cultural balancing of two people. More data is needed, what other Fi-seeking occasions did you observe?
    Well Fi gives a structure from which Te can operate under the system except a system of relationship and morals. So when I say "you shouldn't plot to hurt a neighbor " (this is also a principle and Te is implentation of principles)that is an ethical framework from the standpoint of what is appropriate in human relationship with a neighbor. From this framework and a much simpler one, a relationship, an LSE simply has a system which they may maintain. The system itself is something that LSE work on to maintain because of their Ej temperament, this keeps things linear in an Ej fashion.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    No I'm correct and that's why he was surprised
    No, as usual you are wrong. If he truly was LSE, and you EII, he would already have been under your Fi spell from the start and not a single fibre in his body would have been inclined to give you a lecture on how to behave or not. This is what happens to EIIs and ESIs in general: people think twice before reprimanding these types, and clean up their acts in their presence. In this case you had to make the issue verbal to correct him, which at best would have been you acting from your creative function. Which is definitively not Fi.
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Well Fi gives a structure from which Te can operate under the system except a system of relationship and morals. So when I say "you shouldn't plot to hurt a neighbor " (this is also a principle and Te is implentation of principles)that is an ethical framework from the standpoint of what is appropriate in human relationship with a neighbor. From this framework and a much simpler one, a relationship, an LSE simply has a system which they may maintain. The system itself is something that LSE work on to maintain because of their Ej temperament, this keeps things linear in an Ej fashion.
    Again: this describes the Ti+Fe approach to things.
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Again: this describes the Ti+Fe approach to things.
    Only because of how I'm writing it and how you guys have come to inappropriately view Fi and Te structure of social relationships
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    No, as usual you are wrong. If he truly was LSE, and you EII, he would already have been under your Fi spell from the start and not a single fibre in his body would have been inclined to give you a lecture on how to behave or not. This is what happens to EIIs and ESIs in general: people think twice before reprimanding these types, and clean up their acts in their presence. In this case you had to make the issue verbal to correct him, which at best would have been you acting from your creative function. Which is definitively not Fi.
    What you are saying then goes totally against this description of Te and Si

    The Wikipedia one

    TiNe creative function wouldn't care and neither would FeNi
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Only because of how I'm writing it and how you guys have come to inappropriately view Fi and Te structure of social relationships
    Not at all: my understanding of Socionics functions is complemented with and falsified by sociological and anthropological theories.
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    What you are saying then goes totally against this description of Te and Si

    The Wikipedia one
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like you interpret what I have said in an autistic way. When I talk about "fibre in his body" this is a figure of speech. Or what else would you refer to when you speak of Si? I never mentioned nor implied anything about Si in this context.
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Not at all: my understanding of Socionics functions is complemented with and falsified by sociological and anthropological theories.
    Which theories?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post

    When I would eat something with my fingers he would make off hand remarks like "haven't you attacked those bones enough" or "why do you continue to pick at that chicken?" I would look around me and see if others ate chicken like me and I would tell the LSE, other people are eating the chicken same way yet your focus on how I'm not doing something properly is only directed at me. He would say "yes, because you're the only one who is here with me."
    What a flaming tight ass. If he said that to me I would have........ sat there and took it, but you best believe I would have thought poorly about him! Believe you me!
    "I find you can often find humor just by turning something upside-down. Like a small child." — Emo Philips

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slimpack View Post
    What a flaming tight ass. If he said that to me I would have........ sat there and took it, but you best believe I would have thought poorly about him! Believe you me!
    That's why he's my dual because anyone else would get offended
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Which theories?
    For example, Max Weber's idea's on rationality. He has defined some concepts on types of rationality, which imho, show clear overlap with jungian/socionics concepts of rationality.
    Last edited by consentingadult; 10-17-2016 at 02:39 PM. Reason: typo
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    For example, Max Weber's idea on rationality. He has defined some concepts on types of rationality, which imho, show clear overlap with jungian/socionics concepts of rationality.
    Yep, did you read Luhmann as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Yep, did you read Luhmann as well?
    No never read anything from him. I understand he was a pupil of Talcott Parsons. There are two things that I have a fundamental fear of, and those are academic level mathematics, and the writing style of Talcott Parsons ;-)

    So I guess Luhmann wrote things that are Socionically significant as well?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post
    It must be because I'm SEE. That explains it all.
    It does ;-)

    The thing is that table manners and etiquette are guidelines, not rules that you have to stick to. The purpose is to give you a set of ideas for behavior so you don't have to feel uncomfortable in the company of strangers, and don't offend other people by being too individualistic. You can relax once rapport has been built, or if you sort of don't give a shit about petty rules and are relaxed enough to set the standards yourself. This is what accomplished SEEs and IEEs are quite capable of. I often on purpose violate table manners, not in a rude way, but to demonstrate that etiquette allows for some bandwidth. Always fun to engage into discussion with anal people who do not understand this ;-)

    E.g. I NEVER put the napkin into my lap when seated, but only when dinner is about to start. Even when everyone else is doing it when served seated. And when I'm in the US, I always stick to European table manners. Doing it the American way is not in itself a bad way, but a highly uncomfortable one for me. I'm rather met with disapproval than look clumsy or insecure. I can deal with disapproval, not with discomfort.
    Last edited by consentingadult; 10-17-2016 at 04:44 PM.
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post
    Interesting about the observance of social norms....


    Evidently it is polite to put a napkin on your lap while eating. I never really did, but when I started dating my husband he noted that I didn't put my napkin on my lap. He thought it was kind of crude, I suppose. And I didn't want to do it because everyone else was doing it. But if it's so my clothes won't get ruined or crummy, I might put a napkin on my lap for that purpose. Because that makes sense. Also, him thinking I was crude kind of made me feel bad about myself. I cared more about what he thought than what other people did or about social norms. But I wouldn't do it because everyone else is doing it. I observe social norms, but I don't feel obligated to always follow them, and sometimes can go completely against them on purpose. Like I got really weird about people judging me if my grass was too tall a few years ago, thought it was really stupid, got mad, and decided I didn't want to mow my yard. It was my way of passively-aggressively revolting. An ESE anonymous was going on about how it 'looked bad'. We don't exactly see eye to eye. Her being concerned about how it looked to others and how it reflected her image was what really rubbed me wrong, because that's what she was really trying to say. If it's so I can easily see any snakes in the yard, or if it just looks nicer, that's a different story. But I hate the whole 'curb appeal' thing. If I'm happy with it, that's good enough for me.

    But then it started bugging me, so I mowed it.


    It must be because I'm SEE. That explains it all.
    It is because you are SEE. To go with social norms is to create a well functioning polite society. It's working within a system not challenging it or pushing it boundaries and to note your speech is ironic here.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post
    How kind of you to agree with me.
    I'm not well versed in sarcasm. It took a minute to realize the above
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    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Sarcasm requires an ability to channel emotional insincerity, something I would assume EIIs are not very capable of doing.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    ... To go with social norms is to create a well functioning polite society....
    What if the social norms say it's okay to behave as an asshole? Or better/worse: when social norms say you're a sucker and a looser if you do not behave as one? I mean, look at populist trends all over the western world....
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    What if the social norms say it's okay to behave as an asshole? Or better/worse: when social norms say you're a sucker and a looser if you do not behave as one? I mean, look at populist trends all over the western world....
    I won't go
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  24. #24
    meme hotline Chae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    No never read anything from him. I understand he was a pupil of Talcott Parsons. There are two things that I have a fundamental fear of, and those are academic level mathematics, and the writing style of Talcott Parsons ;-)

    So I guess Luhmann wrote things that are Socionically significant as well?
    Luhmann came up with system theory - you can transfer the dynamics of systems to almost everything that is self-referential. Information metabolism, for instance. I skipped Parsons as well.
    What you fear is simply what you fail to understand, I feel you on a very scientific level. I read Kant once, in German. My brain still hurts. Definitely too much Ti, it's hard to find Gamma or Delta sociologists.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post
    I'm sure I don't have brain damage thanks though for the information

    Truth is EII don't use sarcasm because of their emotional sensitivity to others and why SEE don't care as much its primary Fi empathy to secondary. That's why EII are called the Sincere EII
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 10-17-2016 at 07:08 PM.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  26. #26
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I'm sure I don't have brain damage thanks though for the information

    Truth is EII don't use sarcasm because of their emotional sensitivity to others and why SEE don't care as much its primary Fi empathy to secondary. That's why EII are called the Sincere EII
    The difference between Fi-base and Fi-creative is that the latter is better capable of deciding when it's appropriate to use Fi or not. Fi-base can easily turn into self-sacrificial behavior, where this self-sacrifice is often targeted at objects who have no need of such self-sacrifice:

    13. SELF-SACRIFICE (SS)

    Excessive focus on voluntarily meeting the needs of others in daily situations, at the expense of one's own gratification. The most common reasons are: to prevent causing pain to others; to avoid guilt from feeling selfish; or to maintain the connection with others perceived as needy . Often results from an acute sensitivity to the pain of others. Sometimes leads to a sense that one's own needs are not being adequately met and to resentment of those who are taken care of. (Overlaps with concept of codependency.)
    Source: http://www.schematherapy.com/id73.htm
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    "sarcasm is hypothesized to develop as a cognitive and emotional tool that adolescents use in order to test the borders of politeness and truth in conversation"

    EII don't need to test the truth
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    EII don't need to test the truth
    Objective testing relates to Te (facts). EII, unlike your type, have respect to this.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  29. #29
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Objective testing relates to Te (facts). EII, unlike your type, have respect to this.
    Respect to trust
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  30. #30
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    EIIs generally don't deal with people that way. They deal in conversational sincerity and view conversation not as a game, but as a way to sincerely make their feelings and thoughts known.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I'm sure I don't have brain damage thanks though for the information

    Truth is EII don't use sarcasm because of their emotional sensitivity to others and why SEE don't care as much its primary Fi empathy to secondary. That's why EII are called the Sincere EII
    I don't think it's true that Fi egos don't use sarcasm. It's true that Fi is about personal ethics, interpersonal bonds, and things like that, but I think it's more complex than that. I'm pretty sure an Fi user could use sarcasm to make a point, tell someone off, or make a joke if they were so inclined.

    Maybe i misinterpreted but I didn't think Blue was being sarcastic anyway. I thought Blue just pointing out that they're behavior being typical of an SEE was something they already mentioned. (meaning that you saying it was redundant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    To go with social norms is to create a well functioning polite society.
    I guess it is true that going with social norms would create a well functioning society. But I don't think it follows that a well functioning society is necessarily a polite, or moral, society. It just means that things are operating smoothly, and no one is complaining. I suppose you could argue that social customs and norms are put in place for good reason, and that following them is best for everyone. But not every social norm exists for a good, well thought out, reason. Some may exist for arbitrary or even selfish reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Objective testing relates to Te (facts). EII, unlike your type, have respect to this.
    Just out of curiosity, what do you type Maritsa as?
    "I find you can often find humor just by turning something upside-down. Like a small child." — Emo Philips

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Because I'm so keen about human interactions I observe what is appropriate by other people. The expression of elation from eating a delicious meal while having eyes glazed over would be seen completely normal by all members of that immediate atmosphere except the LSE who operates by his learned behavior. He then when on to say "don't make those looks with your eyes like you are high or something." I said I'm just expressing how good this was and everyone here would agree or understand what that expression means. He had to stop and look at others to see if they noticed me. I told him "it's completely normal for this society and everyone understand what this look means, but you don't because you expect me to behave in a way that's already interpreted as 'proper' or 'fitting' without understanding this society." He looked at me with astonishment and looked at others again. I said "see no one else minds because that is normal to them." I feel like i help LSE look outside themselves.

    Edit: again any behavior that he found odd or resistance to change my behavior in public made him extremely tense to the point of wanting to reprimand me or hurry up and leave the establishment.
    You seem to imply that in situations like this, the EII helps the LSE to see the error of his ways, but does this really make the EII happy, especially since it creates an awkward atmosphere or leads to conflict as it did in your case? I don't see a happy example of duality at work here, looks more like a conflictor situation, but I'm neither EII or LSE, so I can't judge what makes those types feel fulfilled and happy in a relationship. I'm trying to better understand why an EII would want to put up with this sort of thing, or is this guy just an unhealthy LSE?

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slimpack View Post
    I don't think it's true that Fi egos don't use sarcasm. It's true that Fi is about personal ethics, interpersonal bonds, and things like that, but I think it's more complex than that. I'm pretty sure an Fi user could use sarcasm to make a point, tell someone off, or make a joke if they were so inclined.

    Maybe i misinterpreted but I didn't think Blue was being sarcastic anyway. I thought Blue just pointing out that they're behavior being typical of an SEE was something they already mentioned. (meaning that you saying it was redundant)



    I guess it is true that going with social norms would create a well functioning society. But I don't think it follows that a well functioning society is necessarily a polite, or moral, society. It just means that things are operating smoothly, and no one is complaining. I suppose you could argue that social customs and norms are put in place for good reason, and that following them is best for everyone. But not every social norm exists for a good, well thought out, reason. Some may exist for arbitrary or even selfish reasons.



    Just out of curiosity, what do you type Maritsa as?
    You must not know any EII personally. My comments were made from my best friends of over 27 years
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    You must not know any EII personally. My comments were made from my best friends of over 27 years
    Oh that's right. You said EII don't use sarcasm. I should have limited my previous post to just that one type since that's what you were talking about. At any rate, I don't doubt what you say about your friend. But I would say that one or a few EII exhibiting a certain trait isn't proof that all EII exhibit that trait. Still, It is true that I don't know any EII personally. I'm just going off of what I've read of the theory, and what I've seen from EII posters and celebrities. If there are Socionics articles out there that I've overlooked and that say this about EII, perhaps you could direct me to one of them.
    "I find you can often find humor just by turning something upside-down. Like a small child." — Emo Philips

  35. #35
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slimpack View Post
    Oh that's right. You said EII don't use sarcasm. I should have limited my previous post to just that one type since that's what you were talking about. At any rate, I don't doubt what you say about your friend. But I would say that one or a few EII exhibiting a certain trait isn't proof that all EII exhibit that trait. Still, It is true that I don't know any EII personally. I'm just going off of what I've read of the theory, and what I've seen from EII posters and celebrities. If there are Socionics articles out there that I've overlooked and that say this about EII, perhaps you could direct me to one of them.
    This is a good opportunity to get to know an EII
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    This is a good opportunity to get to know an EII
    meeting more people of different types would be good for me. I only really interact with the same small group of people every day, and by interact with I mean I say "hey how's it going" and then immediately run out of things to say. It's kind of annoying because I think Socionics is wrong in a few ways, but there's no reason for anyone to take that opinion seriously if my experience with people is limited.
    "I find you can often find humor just by turning something upside-down. Like a small child." — Emo Philips

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