ENFp sincerity and fake personalities

[Reuben]

An INTj accuses me of having fake personality, putting up a facade just to please people, and not being sincere enough. Is this typical of ENFp's, is it because he's my supervisor, or is it just me?

And should I ever change?

[FDG]

Tell him to go fuck himself and keep masturbating.

[schrödinger's cat]

INTjs say of themselves that they are somewhat lacking in social skills. Most seem to hate smalltalk, chit-chat, howd'yedo, and smiling just to please others (esp. if it requires an effort). ENFps on the other hand are said to have this insight into other people, and apparently we value harmony and work hard at maintaining it.

Meaning: What he calls "putting up a facade just to please people" could be what others call "social skills". An INTj I knew regularly cold-shoulders people she dislikes, and she probably calls that "integrity" - like, acting in harmony with your inner views. Perhaps she's right. I call it "being rude". Just different perspectives, probably. ENFps are flexible and able to adapt to a wide range of people and social settings. Perhaps there is some danger of putting on a facade to please others. But his take on things is so far at the extreme other end of the spectrum that really I wouldn't worry too much about it if I were you. If other types tell you you're putting on a facade, that's different.

And he's an introvert, you're an extravert. Isn't there this theory: if you're an extravert, you ARE yourself if and as long as you're interacting with your environment? As soon as you stop doing that, everything fizzles out. You sort of stop being fully yourself. Introverts aren't like that, apparently. So, no wonder.

[UDP]

An INTj accuses me of having fake personality, putting up a facade just to please people, and not being sincere enough. Is this typical of ENFp's, is it because he's my supervisor, or is it just me?

And should I ever change?

Well, are you being completely fake? Do you enjoy being that way? etc. Don't change "who you are", unless you think you should change who you are. If you think the INTj was unwarreneted in his comments, then don't worry about it. Again, it has nothing to do with what someone said, but what you think about the situation.


The INTj was probably reacting to you're sporadic-ness, which the INTj will take as lack of trustworthiness. Some INTjs, like myself, cut through personality bullshit, and really don't care how we come off. Because once you start being really apparent about dupicity, then you might have a hard time gaining an INTj's trust back. There is a good chance you may become instantly 'untouchable' to an INTj, ESPECIALLY if he is in a close relationship with you.

I suppose that is a big factor --- what is the nature of the relationship between you and the INTj? If it is a relatively close one, you might have to do some major work to gain the INTj's trust back, because he will keep looking at those "faults", or cracks, in your personality. (I'm speaking from an INTjs standpoint.). The INTj will likely wonder about what you are like in other situations. Basically, you could think of it in terms of the INTj wondering "How much can I really trust this person?". How much do the words that come out of your mouth mean anything, and so on.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Many people across the board are insincere.

[meatburger]

INTjs say of themselves that they are somewhat lacking in social skills. Most seem to hate smalltalk, chit-chat, howd'yedo, and smiling just to please others (esp. if it requires an effort). ENFps on the other hand are said to have this insight into other people, and apparently we value harmony and work hard at maintaining it.

Meaning: What he calls "putting up a facade just to please people" could be what others call "social skills". An INTj I knew regularly cold-shoulders people she dislikes, and she probably calls that "integrity" - like, acting in harmony with your inner views. Perhaps she's right. I call it "being rude". Just different perspectives, probably. ENFps are flexible and able to adapt to a wide range of people and social settings. Perhaps there is some danger of putting on a facade to please others. But his take on things is so far at the extreme other end of the spectrum that really I wouldn't worry too much about it if I were you. If other types tell you you're putting on a facade, that's different.

And he's an introvert, you're an extravert. Isn't there this theory: if you're an extravert, you ARE yourself if and as long as you're interacting with your environment? As soon as you stop doing that, everything fizzles out. You sort of stop being fully yourself. Introverts aren't like that, apparently. So, no wonder.

Cat. I could have not said it better myself, infact i could not have said it myself . As an ENFp, you must have a fair deal of T in your thoughts, i practically always agree but could never solidify my own in this way.

As ENFp's, yes we will often be nice to those we dont truly like. Perhaps it is fickle but we like to keep our options open. I personally never really dislike anyone that much anyway. The people i truly like are those that i give my real attention too.

I dont understand why he has to earn the INTj's trust. We are very trustworthy people.

[FDG]

you might have to do some major work to gain the INTj's

What are INTjs, Prince my ass? Just because ENFps like to smoothen situations by adapting themsleves a bit to the interlocutor, doesn't mean that they're fake, just that they're better than you at doing it, period. Sounds like when ISFjs complain that ESTps "do too many sports".

[meatburger]

Being on good terms with the Majority can have advantages strategically aswell. You get far less resistance when you want to do something, people dont stab you in the back as often.

One disadvantage is people who can get on your nerves can latch onto you. You see i feel bad if i reprimand someone / embarass them i feel like i have betrayed myself. This means i often work around the faults of other people and let them be. If someone actually hurts me / does something that crosses the line i dont hesitate to let them know though..

In a bustling office building on the 4th floor, everyone is carrying out their day as normal. Suddenly, the disgruntled office worker who everyone made fun of bursts into the building and starts opening fire with a M16. People are falling left right and centre and no one is spared in the massacre. He turns the corridor spraying bullets and aims his gun squarely at the ENFp. Lowering it, he says "hey meatburger would you like to go for a beer when im finished here?"

My friend and i were talking the other day about how many Street people ask me for change. We hypothesised that they now have a flyer about me that im a sucker and will give change to all homeless. He said but probablly one day what will happen is a gang of homies armed with knives will try to mug me, and out of the shadows 100 homeless will spring to my defense and protect me :wink:

[Topaz]

Meatburger you are crazy. Thats a great story. I'll think about that next time I go on a rampage.
I know what you mean though. I used to get myself in all kinds of messes trying to help some missunderstood soul and the next thing I know they are clinging all over me like Im their lifeline. Rather than picking themselves up and seeing their own value they just grab hold of me to breath life into them. And how do you let them down? Disappear, make excuses, hide.
If I see someone going down the wrong rode I dont mind telling them so though. I consider it the mark of a true friend to tell someone things that he/she may not like but are true. For example friends dont let friends drive drunk.

[schrödinger's cat]

The INTj was probably reacting to you're sporadic-ness, which the INTj will take as lack of trustworthiness. ... Because once you start being really apparent about dupicity, then you might have a hard time gaining an INTj's trust back. There is a good chance you may become instantly 'untouchable' to an INTj, ESPECIALLY if he is in a close relationship with you.

...the INTj ... will keep looking at those "faults", or cracks, in your personality. Basically, you could think of it in terms of the INTj wondering "How much can I really trust this person?". How much do the words that come out of your mouth mean anything, and so on.

Could you enlarge on that, esp. about what this all feels like for the INTj? Or could you give one or two examples?

Reason I'm asking: I can't really understand the INTj's perspective at all, but I'd like to. My knee-jerk reaction would be to think that he's totally jumping to conclusions; as if he were actively searching for faults, or at least being judgmental.

[science as magic]

enfps do have fake personalities in the sense that they don't really have strong personal likes and dislikes but rather seem to tailor these to their interlocutor's perspective

the "social skills" retort is well warranted. the point is being able to do both and knowing when to do which and why.

[science as magic]

if a person has strong convictions and does not stand up for them the disparity can be interpreted as a lack of genuine concern for those convictions. i am not stating my point of view but rather trying to express how those sorts of actions appear to others who are aware of the things which you claim to be of significance. i know the claim part implies something that i do not intend but i am not sure how to rid my sentence of that and stay true to a "other" formulation.

[schrödinger's cat]

You call that fake, I call that being open to other people's perspectives. It does not mean that if a person seldom voices strong stands on certain issues, he is void of firm values underneath. People can have very strong distastes but don't feel the need to express it for whatever reasons. Would you know what I like or don't like if I never talk about it?

That's exactly it. I agree.

Another thing is, I don't think other types (=INTjs esp.) understand how you can empathize with sth. you don't agree with.

Someone says something - I disagree, but I'd like to understand what they mean and where they're coming from - so I ask, trying to understand. I can see how this can be mistaken for agreement. Especially if INTjs would only ever express empathy with things they're fully in synch with. So probably they could see all this as being fake, or spineless? ENFps can empathize with lots of things, while still sticking to their own opinions. In the sense of: "Hm, intriguing... what a strange and interesting opinion." Or, "well, if you feel like that, then no wonder you say such weird things." Of course we're too tactful to express it quite like that. Which is why it all can be mistaken for agreement.

[Topaz]

You call that fake, I call that being open to other people's perspectives. It does not mean that if a person seldom voices strong stands on certain issues, he is void of firm values underneath. People can have very strong distastes but don't feel the need to express it for whatever reasons. Would you know what I like or don't like if I never talk about it?

That's exactly it. I agree.

Another thing is, I don't think other types (=INTjs esp.) understand how you can empathize with sth. you don't agree with.

Someone says something - I disagree, but I'd like to understand what they mean and where they're coming from - so I ask, trying to understand. I can see how this can be mistaken for agreement. Especially if INTjs would only ever express empathy with things they're fully in synch with. So probably they could see all this as being fake, or spineless? ENFps can empathize with lots of things, while still sticking to their own opinions. In the sense of: "Hm, intriguing... what a strange and interesting opinion." Or, "well, if you feel like that, then no wonder you say such weird things." Of course we're too tactful to express it quite like that. Which is why it all can be mistaken for agreement.

HA! too true. Sometimes I have to just shake my head and laugh and mentally put a check in the "freak" box. But even freaks have some value, even if its just entertainment.

[science as magic]

Especially if INTjs would only ever express empathy with things they're fully in synch with. So probably they could see all this as being fake, or spineless?

if i express empathy i simultaneously clarify my position such as when i defend hugo. the problem that i have with this behavior is that enfps concede things too easily and they do not realize that those concessions are being used by others to their (the aggressor's) advantage so their "side" loses. this sort of thing is seen in the UN for example (I am not saying the UN is enfp). by adopting a hard line you often get more of what you want but you have to know what is "crossing the line." a good example of manipulation to get a desired end through flagrant dismissal of the concerns of others would be Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's stance on the nuclear issue. a good example of him crossing the line would be when he said israel should be "wiped off the map." concession tactics do work however such as at the end of the civil war (us) when many southern generals were reinstated to their former positions as senators, etc.

now for something more volatile. i honestly do not believe that enfps take things as seriously as other types and they often are quite superficial. this is one of their greatest strengths (especially in the modern world) because it allows for great flexibility but it also reduces them to living life half-assed many times and i can easily see why some intjs would consider them to be a sort of sub-human.

is this supervision? i notice that whenever i post in this forum i find myself having to continually edit my thought process in order for it to be "acceptable" by including words such as sort of, mostly, tend to, etc. also i find myself saying things like "btw i'm trying to be flagrant don't so don't mind me. but it's not like you'll take this seriously anyway " i can no longer tell if this is something that i really mean so in a sense i am subject to the fakery as well. this is why i hate words. they trap you. a person should be defined by their actions because actions (unlike words) can only be "opposite" not contradictory (unless you count words as a subset of actions but i mean here to view them as different languages)

[Creepy-pokeball]

Have you ever seen a pissed ENFp, pedro? I think it was Ishy that once talked about ( ) ethical rage.

[science as magic]

i don't believe i have. i would like to see it. i think there is a sort of curiousity where i try to discover someone's "buttons" and wait for them to blow up at me so that i know where their/our limits are. with that in mind here is another jerkface remark.

enfps can change their personalities easily because they never have much of a personality to begin with. baby said something like the characters that actors like to play are those that are complex and have a lot of development. enfps never become these characters because they do not spend enough time developing a distinct personality and so they are rather insipid, trite, and dull in the long run. they try to make up for this by switching things up a bit but it turns out to be just a tired rehash of old material.

[Creepy-pokeball]

You dont want to see them mad.

"i think there is a sort of curiousity where i try to discover someone's "buttons" and wait for them to blow up at me so that i know where their/our limits are." -ptl

Wasnt this described somewhere about INTjs? ...something about not knowing relations confidently enough so real-time testing was more accurate (Im summarizing).

[science as magic]

i'm not sure. i believe it is supposed to be a display of ixtps hidden agenda as well, a you hurt the ones you love so you realize how much they mean to you sort of thing, you know? anyhow it is pure contrivance. it surprises me how words can hurt though. they have a magic all their own that stays whether or not any intent lies behind them.

sorry for derailing your thread blade blue

:edit:

you know curioussoul suggested that i might be enfp

[schrödinger's cat]

Pedro, is this to push our buttons and see us explode? If that's the case: won't work.

Or are you honestly trying to have a discussion here? Won't work either. If we're to engage in a real discussion here, you must show respect. Start practising now. No respect - no discussion.

If you were simply observing where the limits are: you're not expecting me to buy this, are you? You can't honestly think that saying "I can see how my fellow [insert type or ethnicity or gender] can consider [another type or ethnicity or gender] subhuman" is acceptable? Come on. It's "crossing the line" so much you've already gone full circle and are approaching it from the other side. I've heard that INTjs aren't really in tune with the finer social conventions, but this is ridiculous.

[Creepy-pokeball]

I was waiting for that.

[schrödinger's cat]

It's not an explosion, actually. It's me being sensible. Sorry to disappoint you.

[Creepy-pokeball]

? No. I was waiting for this part:

"Pedro, is this to push our buttons and see us explode? If that's the case: won't work.

Or are you honestly trying to have a discussion here? Won't work either. If we're to engage in a real discussion here, you must show respect. Start practising now. No respect - no discussion."

I was seeing my ENFp friend rolling her eyes in my mind at Pedro but I wasnt gonna say anything as to not be critical.

[meatburger]

What Pedro said about not having a personality is actually quite astute. Sometimes i do feel as though this is true. I personally spend so much time trying to improve that i never actually live and follow the things that i want to do.

Anyway another possibility is that Pedro hasn't seen the true ENFp personality because he never gets close enough to see it. He is definately not an ENFp.

Anyway i have lost respect and have put him on ignore now.

[schrödinger's cat]

Anyway another possibility is that Pedro hasn't seen the true ENFp personality because he never gets close enough to see it.

To get closer, he'd have to stomach our lack of Ti, and it looks like he can't. If his attitudes here are real, then ENFps might pick them up and protect themselves by not showing him anything but a superficial side of their character. Chatting a little, "how are you", a few jokes, bye byes. I can see how this could be a vicious circle. The more we do that, the more others could be convinced that we ARE shallow after all (or whatever). That would make them probably prickly and critical. We pick that up and show them even less. And so on. And all the while the INTj is causing the very behaviour he criticizes. The joys of supervisory relationships.

Now, ask ISTps if we're shallow. Heh. They get to see a lot more.

He is definately not an ENFp.

Agree.

[Expat]

Someone says something - I disagree, but I'd like to understand what they mean and where they're coming from - so I ask, trying to understand. I can see how this can be mistaken for agreement. Especially if INTjs would only ever express empathy with things they're fully in synch with. So probably they could see all this as being fake, or spineless? ENFps can empathize with lots of things, while still sticking to their own opinions. In the sense of: "Hm, intriguing... what a strange and interesting opinion." Or, "well, if you feel like that, then no wonder you say such weird things." Of course we're too tactful to express it quite like that. Which is why it all can be mistaken for agreement.

This is interesting.

Perhaps what happens is that INTjs not only mistake what you described for agreement. I can see how, when exploring and trying to understand different points of view, an ENFp would follow different paths of reasoning that are not mutually - or even internally - consistent from the INTj's point of view. It would be a manifestation of PoLR and of the INTj supervising the ENFp.

It could go like this:

ENFp: "ok, according your point of view A if this is so then the consequence is this, due to such-and-such reasons. I see your point" (while not necessarily agreeing). And later, the ENFp says "right, according to what you just said B I this and that is happens" etc

INTj: "gee, don't you realize that you followed a completely contradictory line of reasoning when analysing A and B? You're just saying whatever you think I want to hear, don't you?"

How does that sound?

[schrödinger's cat]

The ENFp bit is authentic. It's more or less what happens, yes.

I'm trying to retrace the steps that are necessary to come to a particular opinion. It doesn't follow that this opinion would be my own. I can disagree with an opinion and still want to explore it. ("Is this as pointless as it looks?") It's like checking a Physics experiment. INTjs seem to only check the result ("57? WRONG! Next!"). We search for the assumptions someone made, the data they used, the equipment, the priorities they had. That way, perhaps you can pin-point the exact spot where the other person and you disagree. Or you get to explore a new and intriguing way of doing things.

Usually, the idea is to bounce ideas off each other and then meet in the middle. This does not seem to work with INTjs.

[Rocky]

If you were simply observing where the limits are: you're not expecting me to buy this, are you? You can't honestly think that saying "I can see how my fellow [insert type or ethnicity or gender] can consider [another type or ethnicity or gender] subhuman" is acceptable? Come on. It's "crossing the line" so much you've already gone full circle and are approaching it from the other side. I've heard that INTjs aren't really in tune with the finer social conventions, but this is ridiculous.

Don't worry about it. People who say things like that are just morons. I think you're great.

[Slacker]

ENFps don't have much of a personality?

I think I'm overall pretty sincere but sometimes it's not worth getting into it with people. To be sincere is to be honest and truthful, but I'd rather be tactful and even lie in a lot of cases, such as where I don't know someone well and won't see them again anyway, where I don't respect them, don't think they know what they're talking about, and don't care what they're saying and want the discussion to end, etc.

On that note, thank you for your contributions, Pedro. I appreciate your insight.

[Topaz]

I thought Pedro's thought was amuzing and provacative. I wanted to respond but everybody else already said everything anyway. I wonder if Pedro's being serious or just having fun. INTJs dont really take life serious enough, thats their problem.

[UDP]

You call that fake, I call that being open to other people's perspectives. It does not mean that if a person seldom voices strong stands on certain issues, he is void of firm values underneath. People can have very strong distastes but don't feel the need to express it for whatever reasons. Would you know what I like or don't like if I never talk about it?

That's exactly it. I agree.

Another thing is, I don't think other types (=INTjs esp.) understand how you can empathize with sth. you don't agree with.

Someone says something - I disagree, but I'd like to understand what they mean and where they're coming from - so I ask, trying to understand. I can see how this can be mistaken for agreement. Especially if INTjs would only ever express empathy with things they're fully in synch with. So probably they could see all this as being fake, or spineless? ENFps can empathize with lots of things, while still sticking to their own opinions. In the sense of: "Hm, intriguing... what a strange and interesting opinion." Or, "well, if you feel like that, then no wonder you say such weird things." Of course we're too tactful to express it quite like that. Which is why it all can be mistaken for agreement.

That is all valid.

But don't forget that EFps can go too far, too. This isn't related to type, though, but more so personal character. ESFps can have no in their actions, it's all , so they don't care about rules at all, just that moment. In that way, I consider them very fake, but that is because I make judgements on my measurements of consitency, and so forth.

[UDP]

The INTj was probably reacting to you're sporadic-ness, which the INTj will take as lack of trustworthiness. ... Because once you start being really apparent about dupicity, then you might have a hard time gaining an INTj's trust back. There is a good chance you may become instantly 'untouchable' to an INTj, ESPECIALLY if he is in a close relationship with you.

...the INTj ... will keep looking at those "faults", or cracks, in your personality. Basically, you could think of it in terms of the INTj wondering "How much can I really trust this person?". How much do the words that come out of your mouth mean anything, and so on.

Could you enlarge on that, esp. about what this all feels like for the INTj? Or could you give one or two examples?

Reason I'm asking: I can't really understand the INTj's perspective at all, but I'd like to. My knee-jerk reaction would be to think that he's totally jumping to conclusions; as if he were actively searching for faults, or at least being judgmental.

You're knee jerk reaction is fairly correct. Most INTjs are that way. We do look for faults, because we like to fix them, and arrange them to our , which generally includes universal principles (not all INTjs have 'ethical' universal principles, etc - meanting that just because they claim their views to be universal, that doesn't mean they are 'good',e tc).

I don't know what there is to explain - explain what?

It seems like in this thread you've only presented stuff that makes INTjs look bad and you're ENFp'ness look acceptabe -- I suggest you consider why your ENFpness might not be acceptable to everyone, rather than just ask me to explain my views.

Also, you haven't really said anything that I feel like I should disagree about, so I'm not sure what to discuss or comment on.

It seems like it's been a discussion of ENFps having tact, and INTjs not, or not respecting that.

[science as magic]

I thought Pedro's thought was amuzing

It was meant to be.

I wonder if Pedro's being serious or just having fun.

i was wondering the same thing. to be honest i don't really know how i respond to things until i actually do respond to them. usually the stimulus is not strong enough to provoke a reaction. pretentiously provoking provocation prevents periodic perturbance.

[Rocky]

I wonder if Pedro's being serious or just having fun.

i was wondering the same thing. to be honest i don't really know how i respond to things until i actually do respond to them. usually the stimulus is not strong enough to provoke a reaction. pretentiously provoking provocation prevents periodic perturbance.

I have noticed that too. But why isn't that ? Does that not sound irrational to you? That's what I was getting at awhile ago when you didn't respond to my questions.

[science as magic]

it may well be. i do not think of the functions as being mutually exclusionary

[science as magic]

Fine.

pun?

I wonder though how you will react to some ENFps here if they turn out to be ENFjs. Would you still see them through those lenses of yours?

that was sort of the point you know, clarifying things by blatantly saying something and seeing where people disagree with you so you can garner further insight?

[schrödinger's cat]

You're knee jerk reaction is fairly correct. Most INTjs are that way. We do look for faults, because we like to fix them, and arrange them to our , which generally includes universal principles (not all INTjs have 'ethical' universal principles, etc - meanting that just because they claim their views to be universal, that doesn't mean they are 'good',e tc).

I don't know what there is to explain - explain what?

It seems like in this thread you've only presented stuff that makes INTjs look bad and you're ENFp'ness look acceptabe -- I suggest you consider why your ENFpness might not be acceptable to everyone, rather than just ask me to explain my views.

Also, you haven't really said anything that I feel like I should disagree about, so I'm not sure what to discuss or comment on.

It seems like it's been a discussion of ENFps having tact, and INTjs not, or not respecting that.

Sorry. I should have clarified that I asked my question for that very reason. If my knee-jerk reaction is purely negative, it can't be the truth, it's simply a very very subjective impression I have. So I was looking for some insider information that could help me understand why INTjs do what they do. That they're looking for faults because they like to fix them is roughly what I was after.

[schrödinger's cat]

...you know, clarifying things by blatantly saying something and seeing where people disagree with you so you can garner further insight?

So, did you garner insight?

[meatburger]

I didn't really Ignore Pedro. My getting angry was supposed to show him what its like to have an ENFp angry but i didn't really have much affect

[science as magic]

So, did you garner insight?

no. i honestly don't think i hit home yet. i wish i knew you (all) individually so i could tailor my expressions until i see the fight come out. you know sort of like mentally slapping you in the face with my penis or something. this is why i want the mental internet. i think that we need a device that will allow people to push and push upon one another until they snap. if i piss you off in real life or on the internet you could always just walk away but if i were with you always and you were forced to hear/deal with my thoughts all the time what would happen? i long for that inane cacophany, a veritable babel of confusion, to fill our (collective) head until something ruptures and we find a way to approach the entire spectrum of information in a manner that can allow for formal representation of all thought-sensorics whether or no they are weighted equally

I didn't really Ignore Pedro. My getting angry was supposed to show him what its like to have an ENFp angry but i didn't really have much affect

it did surprise me. i did not know it was meant to convey anger (i thought disgust perhaps) as it was rather passive-aggressive. i didn't respond because i thought you put me on ignore heh