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Thread: common stereotypes about Si (introverted sensing)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ananke View Post
    Both are IP functions....
    But we are talking about Si here.


    Well, I simply mean that dynamic and subjective and irrational means there is time passing between the start and end of an impression (IP describes subjective impression of changes), and thus there is time involved in the perception itself (changes means time)
    Well, Ni is the IE about time... since that's something more removed from the present. Si is in the present.


    Oh, they do talk about "life paths" a lot. I think the word "life path" isn't too good, as we discussed before, and it may be why it is not clear, but it's the only way I can describe the linear subjective cause-effect perception of Si.
    The life path thing just seems like your own abstract conceptualization of Si's workings. Socionics has it as present oriented: "perceives external information in form of sensations evoked by ongoing events". This is also what makes sense to me.


    The level of "genius" in what the Si-egos say about these changes over time depends on their level of ... well... intellect. It ranges from "He will probably spend all weekend at home eating potato chips" to things like "Once you get trapped by your imagination, you think the worst and therefore you have to plan for the worst. It becomes a self-fulfilling thing."
    The latter is something a lot of people typed Ni egos here would say...


    Hmm.. I'll think of a way to explain it, but it seems it would get even more complicated. I wrote about it in the link to the other Si post below, though. Maybe it's enough to say that involved functions are less "mental", and thus don't involve much thinking.
    Yeah, they are less mental.


    Stability? If you adapt, it is to keep stable, in some sense, when facing external instability.
    In what sense? How is this different from Ij temperament's stable reality?


    That said, Si will actually have timeline sensations based on food. It can be as simple as feeling the sensation of grandma's pancakes from childhood when eating pancakes as an adult, and through that have a sensing perception of the changes that have occured in society since then ("they don't make pancakes like that anymore"). So I don't agree that Si makes tastes come out more, it's actually more like sensing has an augmented quality to the sensation, like more information behind the experience, and that isn't really "reality" either. Ni and Ne may not even focus on the food, but float off in their minds based on own or other's thoughts and concepts unrelated to the food, so in that sense sensors are more into their senses, but thinking of grandma isn't really "taste" either, it's just linked to the taste.
    As far as I can see, Si perceives changes gradually and continuously in the moment right here and now, conceptualizing change as this grandma thing seems Static bias


    It isn't linear in thinking style, like rationality. Rationality means a conscious and fully aware process of A ---> B ---> C, or at least in some sense a conscious understanding of the judgement made.
    The timeline changes that Si perceive is linear in the sense that they perceive the changes from past to present in a more direct line than Ni (whereas Ni perceives the differences between changes in snippets of unrelated timelines.)
    Yeah about Rationality.

    Si perceives small changes in the moment... but in that sense it can be linear sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    What about her is Fe creative?
    I don't know. But she types herself Fe creative > Te creative afaik, and I know some IEIs who come off as low-Fe so I can give some leeway there.

    Ofc this depends on how you define Fe and Te creative.

    One thing she has talked about is her concern over how she is perceived by other people, whether her words are chosen well, whether she is communicating effectively. One could argue that this is someone with Fe polr being worried over their lack of Fe, but the ILIs I know often don't seem to care much about how others see them. They will surprise me with how few fucks they give about it. That could be polr as a blind spot. But maybe polr can manifest in more than one way.

    Maybe one way to be less blind about polr is when people are expecting you to do something polr-ish you kind of just can't; that's probably how I became more aware of my own polr.
    Last edited by golden; 09-13-2016 at 09:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    The life path thing just seems like your own abstract conceptualization of Si's workings. Socionics has it as present oriented: "perceives external information in form of sensations evoked by ongoing events". This is also what makes sense to me.
    I think it's more correct to call it oriented towards tangible timelines than to call it present oriented, but that is a form of present orientation in and of itself, I guess. As in, Si pulls information from a timeline to describe the present (see pancake example).

    The latter is something a lot of people typed Ni egos here would say...
    It's a SEI quote. And I don't think Ni-egos would say such a thing. Ni is more detached.

    As far as I can see, Si perceives changes gradually and continuously in the moment right here and now, conceptualizing change as this grandma thing seems Static bias
    Did you check the examples (youtube vids)? I'm static as you point out, so it's obvious that I'm not the best at explaining the dynamics of Si, but the videos are good examples of what I try to explain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ananke View Post
    I think it's more correct to call it oriented towards tangible timelines than to call it present oriented, but that is a form of present orientation in and of itself, I guess. As in, Si pulls information from a timeline to describe the present (see pancake example).
    We definitely call two different things Si then. As I said, my version of it "perceives external information in form of sensations evoked by ongoing events".


    It's a SEI quote. And I don't think Ni-egos would say such a thing. Ni is more detached.
    It seems detached enough to me. I hear @Pookie etc say these things all day.


    Did you check the examples (youtube vids)? I'm static as you point out, so it's obvious that I'm not the best at explaining the dynamics of Si, but the videos are good examples of what I try to explain.
    I looked a bit but it didn't really help much.


    Anyway. Can you say more on the stability thing where I asked: In what sense? How is this different from Ij temperament's stable reality?

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    Okay fair enough... but I still think Si is about a sense of inner comfort. Things like clothes and cooking are highly stereotypical and campy examples of 'comfort' - that aren't necessarily related to Si in the hyper intellectual and interesting way that you wish to receive it, yeah- but I think it's really just about liking to be 'at peace' with your own senses or something. Asston once talked about how he didn't like being comfortable. That was so silly to me... how could anybody NOT like being comfortable? But it was just Asston being Asston. From a socionics perspective, him being Si polr and saying that made sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    I guess it struck me as sensing b/c I'm not really good at doing things in general. I.e.: am bad at lots of stereotypical office tasks--saying I've sent an email with an attachment but not attaching; not remembering the names of rooms; not knowing where something is after going three times, and giving the complete wrong location when another person asks.
    I am very prone to making those sorts of errors as well. There are often logistical type things I overlook or don't realize their importance at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    But cleaning a room, for instance, is easy-- I can just "power through." Strong sensing making up for not having an efficient "strategy". I might still be faster than someone w/ a strategy just b/c I'm fast.
    I'm like that too with cleaning. Or with filing. I work in a library and I've been known to be one of the most accurate and efficient shelvers. Yet put me in a 'crisis' situation or have me execute some unfamiliar task and watch me falter.


    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    I think a lot of behavior can be handled through diff IM, so maybe these examples aren't useful. For instance, I can see a spacey N person doing what I mentioned above. When I think of people w/ strong Te, it's like... they can understand w/o it being spelled out what the underlying goal of an activity is, or what matters (?) When I do an assignment I have to read the instruction like seven times, b/c if I don't see a step I can just forget it, and sometimes that step was important. But Te people sort of can extrapolate or the process makes a bigger map in their heads as they read, so they don't forget the important thing.
    How good I am with instructions depends on how familiar I am with the sort of task the situation demands. The more familiarity and prior experience I have, the better my ability to extrapolate. I think most people are like this so it's not completely type related. I think strong Te is more confident though doing the extrapolation you describe. For example when learning new computer software, I typically just jump right in and 'play' with it. I've used enough different kinds of software to generally get the feel of how they work and how to navigate through the menus. I can see the patterns between the different types. When assembling something, I'm much more inclined to read through instructions. I don't assemble that many things and my mechanical/spatial sense isn't as strong.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Okay fair enough... but I still think Si is about a sense of inner comfort. Things like clothes and cooking are highly stereotypical and campy examples of 'comfort' - that aren't necessarily related to Si in the hyper intellectual and interesting way that you wish to receive it, yeah- but I think it's really just about liking to be 'at peace' with your own senses or something. Asston once talked about how he didn't like being comfortable. That was so silly to me... how could anybody NOT like being comfortable? But it was just Asston being Asston. From a socionics perspective, him being Si polr and saying that made sense.
    I agree that Si is about a sense of inner comfort, and yes, it is more than just clothes or cooking. I suppose it's about bodily comfort on the whole. For me, comfort can be bodily comfort but it can also be every bit as much emotional comfort or mental comfort, which would tie into other socionics functions. When I say I want to be 'comfortable', it's not only physical, but mental and emotional as well. I define it as the desire for inner harmony, free from pain or distress of any sort. I've often been puzzled too by people who say they don't like to be comfortable. I don't think the vast majority of people truly enjoy being in any physical pain. When people say they don't like being 'comfortable' I think it can be interpreted in multiple ways. I read about an LIE who made such a statement and really what he meant was that he didn't like to 'relax' and just stagnate- he needed to always be moving towards some sort of goal and accomplishing things. He didn't see much point in indulging in any simple sensory pleasures and didn't strive towards bettering things in that area. I've heard others say things like pain makes them feel more alive. I suppose there is some sense in that. I don't think they really 'enjoy' the physical pain, but rather they pride themselves in being able to endure it, to feel strong, etc. I think about athletes in a race, you can literally run so hard you feel like you are going to pass out any second but you might be able to override those feelings of discomfort and keep pushing yourself to achieve some goal of winning.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    hello, since a lot of people on the forum see me as SEI i feel qualified to make this post in some ways. the following are things about Si that are not really true of me and that i think probably miss the mark about what Si is.

    - Si is not matching your clothes... one can develop a personalized aesthetic sense of course, and there is some loose connection to Si in this, but it's often far too loose and far too indirect to be important. for instance my ESE mom notices the intensity of colors and how they look next to each other to the extent that she will comment on it a lot... her aesthetic sense i think is very much about her Si... but i personally just find this kind of thing somewhat torturous. i have an aesthetic sense but it isn't something i can even reduce to pinning down what it is, and it tends to be more based on what something means to me personally. my clothing styles (to the extent they can, as i am usually short of money to buy clothing and it's not been a priority for a long time) tend to reflect an ideal of my self-image in ways that are difficult to explain and that change as my self-image changes. i don't feel this is all that unique, but humanly common. there are some people who care a great deal about color-matching and fabric quality and all sorts of details like that but most of that stuff is not something i devote much notice to naturally (unless i actually *want* to torture myself). it's not important in the grand scheme of the universe (it is not meaningful to me personally). if i was ever professionally in a setting where what i wear greatly matters i would probably seek outside advice just like anyone else (especially wanting it reduced to clear standards or rules if others are going to have some issue with my clothing) because i am not able to really look at appearance well from the outside. i can't put myself together externally in my mind - how i look on the outside is confusing, as is how others look. i also find that most people seem to care way more about aesthetics in general than i do day-to-day (and most of these people are rational types). also, i find expecting any IP type to be some expert at this is silly... Se is an unconscious IE for all IPs. (eta: expertise in aesthetics is something one would need to develop and work on and it would probably always be personal/unique in that case.)

    - Si is not about internal bodily sensations. my theory is that actually sensation of this sort doesn't differ that much between types. what does differ is the way in which that awareness is overridden by other mental processes. Si types, however, can also have it overridden by their other mental processes. it depends on the individual to a great extent. using the question of if one for instance puts off addressing physical needs to the point that these needs scream to the extent you can no longer not notice them, is a bad question for N vs. S. it will probably mislead a lot of sensors to thinking they are intuitive. very few people are "physical" enough to address their every momentary physical need as it arises, to maintain such constant awareness of these needs, etc. eta: i'd also add that a lot of the people who are physical in this way have probably actually worked on developing that presence of mind further as a deliberate effort over many years. ime, i've noticed a lot of XSEs can fit the bill, but you will also notice they are actively working on it too... which is to say, i'm noticing the ones who find this highly important the most.


    mainly i think these two things are red herrings in socionics. i realize saying what Si isn't doesn't help one discover what it *is* exactly, but i haven't quite figured out what it is yet.
    I can't agree with this at all, especially when you don't offer any alternative definition. At least you realize that, which is more than most people who complain about "stereotypes" -- while essentially robbing the theory of its most fundamental predictions and definitions. Maybe you should consider another type?

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenbane View Post
    I'm not so sure the best word is "linear," so much as it might be called "continuous." The path doesn't have to be straight lines. In Ni, as Ananke points out, you have these discrete slices and match up the patterns.

    It looks like in Si, it's more like you can't make these leaps but rather things are in proximity. The proximity isn't so much cause and effect between the "things," but that the things were left in proximity by some other causes.
    This is similar to how I think about Si. The most abstract way I have found to understand it is that Si is about "where something is in the world", its "situatedness." Si judges how good or bad a fit a particular situatedness is for the person or thing or whatever it may be. Another way to put it is "interaction", the dynamic exchange that a thing has with its environment -- but that can have an Fe connotation too. With SiTe it's like seeing how different parts of a machine interact, how the gears fit together, are they well-oiled or not etc.

    that the things were left in proximity by some other causes.
    I would say more simply that Si is just not responsible for metabolizing this kind of information. It's not looking at the cause but how something actually is. If you're looking at the cause there is necessarily some intuition involved. Ne complements Si by either 1) telling it how the condition arose in the first place or 2) how the condition might be improved. It's not really about the "process" but its end result, so it's static. "dynamically unfolding" also sounds like Ni

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    This is similar to how I think about Si. The most abstract way I have found to understand it is that Si is about "where something is in the world", its "situatedness." Si judges how good or bad a fit a particular situatedness is for the person or thing or whatever it may be. Another way to put it is "interaction", the dynamic exchange that a thing has with its environment -- but that can have an Fe connotation too. With SiTe it's like seeing how different parts of a machine interact, how the gears fit together, are they well-oiled or not etc.
    Elaborate more on what you mean by "where something is in the world", its "situatedness". Since all these expressions just make me see it in a Static way.

    The SiTe part is put well, yes.


    I would say more simply that Si is just not responsible for metabolizing this kind of information. It's not looking at the cause but how something actually is. If you're looking at the cause there is necessarily some intuition involved. Ne complements Si by either 1) telling it how the condition arose in the first place or 2) how the condition might be improved. It's not really about the "process" but its end result, so it's static. "dynamically unfolding" also sounds like Ni
    I agree on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Elaborate more on what you mean by "where something is in the world", its "situatedness". Since all these expressions just make me see it in a Static way.
    ok so sensing is fundamentally about the way things are currently or what is present. But Se sees what is present as detached from the subject "it is what it is." Si is more concerned with one's subjective relationship with what is present. This can be dynamically changing of course but I'm not sure if that's a fundamental aspect of it, the literal interpretation of static/dynamic seems a bit hazy to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    This is similar to how I think about Si. The most abstract way I have found to understand it is that Si is about "where something is in the world", its "situatedness." Si judges how good or bad a fit a particular situatedness is for the person or thing or whatever it may be. Another way to put it is "interaction", the dynamic exchange that a thing has with its environment -- but that can have an Fe connotation too. With SiTe it's like seeing how different parts of a machine interact, how the gears fit together, are they well-oiled or not etc.



    I would say more simply that Si is just not responsible for metabolizing this kind of information. It's not looking at the cause but how something actually is. If you're looking at the cause there is necessarily some intuition involved. Ne complements Si by either 1) telling it how the condition arose in the first place or 2) how the condition might be improved. It's not really about the "process" but its end result, so it's static. "dynamically unfolding" also sounds like Ni
    Hm, yeah. This is an approximation of Si from the vantage point of someone who sucks at it. Makes sense that I can't help framing it in intuitor terms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    ok so sensing is fundamentally about the way things are currently or what is present. But Se sees what is present as detached from the subject "it is what it is." Si is more concerned with one's subjective relationship with what is present. This can be dynamically changing of course but I'm not sure if that's a fundamental aspect of it, the literal interpretation of static/dynamic seems a bit hazy to me.
    What in the SiTe example was about one's subjective relationship with what's present? I'm asking to see what you exactly mean by this.

    I do find validity to the Static/Dynamic idea very much so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ananke View Post
    So I agree with inumbra, Si is generally quite poorly described and the descriptions too often deal with common, yet indirect, resulting traits of the function, rather than describing how the function really works.
    yes.

    i didn't watch much of the adam curtis video. i can't focus on it. my mind is in an awful haze. below involves putting this together based on your post, and i guess i'm looking to see if you think my translation matches what you meant to begin with.

    i have to agree the video (from the little i saw) seems to be covering the aspect of reality (and in a way that matches *with* the socionics type descriptions, even... not sure yet why i am disturbed by that), as it seems to be looking at the feel of existence in terms of present experience, how it passes in the long moment-to-moment, day-to-day life (the Si stream, re: @Expat). or along the prescribed path of a lifestyle and its significant um points--things like rites of passage, getting married, raising kids, whatever. the board game 'life' is an example really.

    naturally this "life" isn't fixed as over the course of it the society will change (before modernity, perhaps more gradually), and the people must adapt and adjust their practices accordingly. but still it is kind of one path, with adjusting all the typically prescribed things along with it. the focus is on the nuts-and-bolts of the days--maintenance really, which is why Si gets associated with routines (which basically serve as maintenance tools/programs you can run out of habit). the themes of "preserving a way of life" or "honoring traditions" etc. would then be quite in line with this (and really they are in myers-briggs Si afaik).

    of course there are concerns/thoughts of the future, along the prescribed path(s); looking out for the future of the culture/people/way-of-life or recognizing things coming down the pipeline which may alter it; being able to predict where the day-to-day will go in the future. the wisdom of predictions tends to be inside the one way of life (what we have always done and how it changed when the woolly mammoth population began dwindling year by year). Si ego would then be the maintainers of the day-to-day-way-of-life or the manager of changes to it, or the ones who warn of coming changes within it, from within or from without. they "care" for it/tend it (are always keeping touch with it). this could also mean they act as masters of it (in charge of it).

    eta: to elaborate about predictions, it's mainly that one is always on at least one road, and most humans can see the predictable basic destination points. and i kind of like the "tangible timeline" idea.

     
    the ending of the film 'the last lions' : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xus_Ky4aTPU (go to 1:16:00 ish). i can feel the sadness of extinction in ‘the last lions’: it is about an episode in the life of one lion, her losses and what she had to overcome (her *plight*) against the backdrop of the end of her entire species (the plight of african lions). the creators of the film have spent most of their lives observing african big cats. they’ve watched how lion “society” has deteriorated over the years in response to human activity, right down to unraveling of the pride structure (which they’ve described in at least one of their other films). 'the last lions' btw contains more anthropomorphism than most of their other films as it's an appeal to the viewer. it plays out a bit like a fictional drama with almost this mythological quality to it.
    does that match, @Ananke?


    i don't think that what @Ananke is saying and what @Myst saying is quite as different as it seemed at the end of discussion (well, in this one way only actually). and i guess the issue i have is that this same day-to-day nuts and bolts person will be the same person whose face you see in the Si type descriptions. it’s just looking at that face from a different vantage. because with this focus, they'll have large concentrated energies put into some kind of actual tangible management of their existence. they are the keepers of the way-of-life, so most of them would *have to*. for some, perhaps it would be maintaining order in the living environment; for others it might be innovating new crafty things to help the general lifestyle (like combining different foods in ways that will satisfy the needs of 'the people'); for others it might be keeping people comfortable and happy... the 'couch potato' could be a modern iteration lol. (but that is also a joke!)


    i don't feel a connection or relation to this exactly. i almost feel like this might all be according to PoLR, but i am not your shadow. or something. or i am simply an unimpressive person.


    oh, but either way, ~ = constant awareness of bodily sensations~ is still bad (imo).


    eta: i'm confused again. this whole thread is full of my confusion.
    Last edited by inumbra; 09-18-2016 at 11:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenbane View Post
    One thing she has talked about is her concern over how she is perceived by other people, whether her words are chosen well, whether she is communicating effectively. One could argue that this is someone with Fe polr being worried over their lack of Fe, but the ILIs I know often don't seem to care much about how others see them. They will surprise me with how few fucks they give about it. That could be polr as a blind spot. But maybe polr can manifest in more than one way.

    Maybe one way to be less blind about polr is when people are expecting you to do something polr-ish you kind of just can't; that's probably how I became more aware of my own polr.
    just for context this concern is 3 years old. it started with my job in reception and office support because of my huge failures (these were reported to me by my superiors, i didn't invent them). since i have began to actually appreciate why this is important because the tools i've developed (and am still developing) are the only thing that can save me (over-dramatic statement). most of my life in jobs has been focusing on my weaknesses and i just don't wanna talk about it and be subjected again to the forum's critical eye. yes i suck, i failed, shoot me. is how i feel.

    i typed out some long thing about Fe vs. Te shortly after you posted this, but gah, i don't think i want to go into it. mainly PoLR is fitting enough (going by the stereotypes ). i can actually relate to PoLR as well. so it becomes a deficit comparison. i'm just not very... rational, apparently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    What in the SiTe example was about one's subjective relationship with what's present? I'm asking to see what you exactly mean by this.
    "one's subjective relationship with what's present" is not the most general way of putting it. It's about how things/people/other entities are affected by their environment. But of course, as applied to a person it is experienced somewhat subjectively (compared to Se).

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    just for context this concern is 3 years old. it started with my job in reception and office support because of my huge failures (these were reported to me by my superiors, i didn't invent them). since i have began to actually appreciate why this is important because the tools i've developed (and am still developing) are the only thing that can save me (over-dramatic statement). most of my life in jobs has been focusing on my weaknesses and i just don't wanna talk about it and be subjected again to the forum's critical eye. yes i suck, i failed, shoot me. is how i feel.

    i typed out some long thing about Fe vs. Te shortly after you posted this, but gah, i don't think i want to go into it. mainly PoLR is fitting enough (going by the stereotypes ). i can actually relate to PoLR as well. so it becomes a deficit comparison. i'm just not very... rational, apparently.
    Not to drag on with a subject that isn't pleasant for you, but I do think that even as a probable dom, I initially had (and still may have) a lot to learn about communication in the workplace and in other professional contexts. Often, business etiquette and communication are not taught well, or not taught at all. Somehow people are expected just to have picked it up by osmosis, and it doesn't always work that way. Especially if you aren't regularly exposed to people modeling this stuff.

    And sometimes you may be surrounded by people who actually don't communicate well, but they're in higher positions, and in that case you not only have to communicate well on your own behalf, but make up for their deficits. A lot of what gets passed off as effective corporate-speak is nothing more than jargon and buzzwords that convey little but sound "right" until you begin pondering wtf is actually meant by any of it. Crack open the shell and you'll find no nut inside.

    Then when people "fail" with some of these things in a business environment, it's too easy to make it out as some kind of personal deficit when we're actually talking about a skill set, one that maybe your employer failed to point out that you needed and failed to point to resources that impart it. Ridiculous.

    And I'm not sure any of this, then, has much to do with and . It might. But I know I certainly hate answering phone calls in an office and stuff like that. I'm probably good at communicating about the things I'm passionate about, or that I have specialized in, and I've been called on to handle hairy interpersonal situations when someone was really upset, threatening to sue, in tears, etc. I think this just requires being sincere and patient and acknowledging what the upset person is saying without arguing them out of their perspective. Not sure it's related to an IE.

    Last thought: Do you think it could make more sense if you had someone taking care of administrative details and gatekeeping for you while you do your job, rather than it being a big part of your job to do that stuff?

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenbane View Post
    Not to drag on with a subject that isn't pleasant for you, but I do think that even as a probable dom, I initially had (and still may have) a lot to learn about communication in the workplace and in other professional contexts.
    welllll you asked lol. something in this is type related but i don't know if it's worth finding since apart from being an introvert, i'm a loner, mentally ill, and i was raised in a very dysfunctional household (one in which communication was closed in many ways, there were secrets, and a lot of social isolation from the outside except for going to school and i usually didn't have any friends). when i started my current job i was withdrawn into myself very deeply and was barely even present. i think my communication problems extend beyond work. i've noticed problems with communication in the shoutbox that remind me of problems i've experienced at work. other instances in the past come up that were more anomalous at the times they occurred because i never *had* to communicate as much before as i do in my job (with people i am not close to), nor was i interested in doing so. my job requires a strange mix of detailed/business communication and interpersonal communication (all of this often on limited time) - it's really i think highly challenging. all extroverted IEs would be helpful for my job.

    in general though, i don't present or convey myself in a way that ends up working effectively for me. it has to go beyond a single information element.

    Often, business etiquette and communication are not taught well, or not taught at all. Somehow people are expected just to have picked it up by osmosis, and it doesn't always work that way. Especially if you aren't regularly exposed to people modeling this stuff.

    And sometimes you may be surrounded by people who actually don't communicate well, but they're in higher positions, and in that case you not only have to communicate well on your own behalf, but make up for their deficits. A lot of what gets passed off as effective corporate-speak is nothing more than jargon and buzzwords that convey little but sound "right" until you begin pondering wtf is actually meant by any of it. Crack open the shell and you'll find no nut inside.

    Then when people "fail" with some of these things in a business environment, it's too easy to make it out as some kind of personal deficit when we're actually talking about a skill set, one that maybe your employer failed to point out that you needed and failed to point to resources that impart it. Ridiculous.
    yeah i know (though my work place isn't as badly corporate as that). i'd sometimes be thinking about such things during my difficult situations allowing me to make them even more difficult (it's one of the reasons why i felt so trapped in the first year especially - because it felt like there wasn't a right answer - but that is also a general theme with me is the thing). i was at the bottom of the heirarchy with no power, no voice, it felt like, and when i noticed that the person who came to me wasn't communicating well i also knew it would be considered 100% my fault. beyond feeling trapped, i felt it was annoyingly hypocritical of them. and i agree it's often a hidden expectation. but overall really i think this aspect is *very* minimal where i work - to even address it to this extent gives it way too much significance. everyone above me in the hierarchy is a better communicator than i am on the whole (far better), and i think one of things about office support is that the onus really is often on the office support person to be the better communicator when it comes to stuff relating to their position especially. it's unfortunately a catering role basically. my "failures" were failures to cater to expectations, though i had to fish to find those expectations (but that's another application of communication lol - that's part of the role of office support which is there to make everything easier for everyone else). and i spent time being all upset about this, but... i can't get trapped in any communication labyrinth presented by another person, if my communication is strong. part of me is upset that i've adapted to this attitude because my original one was more like yours and i feel like it's an example of how i can't be myself. but that i need to change jobs (nay, entire careers) is not really in question.

    eta: also the people at my work are good people on the whole (i'm probably a worse person than most of them). i was the one who saw this as a dangerous situation as though my head would be chopped off. during the time i was angry, i wasn't even perceiving reality.

    And I'm not sure any of this, then, has much to do with and . It might. But I know I certainly hate answering phone calls in an office and stuff like that. I'm probably good at communicating about the things I'm passionate about, or that I have specialized in, and I've been called on to handle hairy interpersonal situations when someone was really upset, threatening to sue, in tears, etc. I think this just requires being sincere and patient and acknowledging what the upset person is saying without arguing them out of their perspective. Not sure it's related to an IE.

    Last thought: Do you think it could make more sense if you had someone taking care of administrative details and gatekeeping for you while you do your job, rather than it being a big part of your job to do that stuff?
    yes. reception/office support is a bad fit for me. i was dropped in my current position by circumstance (not having anything to do with me) and i was very depressed at the time. i am really bad with administrative details (for 40 hours a week... like part of it is how much time), but i can do them if i'm allowed quiet (most importantly, no interruptions) so i can concentrate (but they are always a strain). before i began working i would reserve such tedium for my times of high focus so i could get a lot done quickly (in spurts) - then it isn't a strain (or wasn't before mental illness). i know i need work where i can spurt freely.

    i don't like consoling people either. my consoling powers are limited to someone i am *very* close to (and i'm so closed off i'm currently close to no one it seems), and even then it seems people console me more than i console them. i tend to kind of get cold in situations requiring consoling. sometimes i just disappear when i see an "expert" has arrived. it's not that i don't care, but i am more likely to try to find a solution than be openly empathetic (i don't feel safe). i can be emotionally open with animals quite spontaneously because i feel safe (they won't judge, won't stab at my vulnerabilities, will simply be honest in their presence - no ego games), but people are tough.


    oh and ps: it is definitely easier for me to talk about things i am interested in or passionate about, though i think this is true of most? business/work stuff is not it. except about the hell of it, which i've talked about a great deal in a way where its incomprehensible.


    eta: actually it is sometimes that i don't even care. but what i meant is i like a resolution that will fix things.
    Last edited by inumbra; 09-19-2016 at 02:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    "one's subjective relationship with what's present" is not the most general way of putting it. It's about how things/people/other entities are affected by their environment. But of course, as applied to a person it is experienced somewhat subjectively (compared to Se).
    do you have examples? what is "environment"? is it like in @Ananke's post when she mentions the school system example? is it like 'the people of the abyss' where jack london was able to well demonstrate how 'the abyss' (east end london, 1902) created its mangled adult creatures whose minds, hearts and souls were destroyed? (stolen from them by their conditions)

    Quote Originally Posted by jack london - excerpt
    There is one beautiful sight in the East End, and only one, and it is the children dancing in the street when the organ-grinder goes his round. It is fascinating to watch them, the new-born, the next generation, swaying and stepping, with pretty little mimicries and graceful inventions all their own, with muscles that move swiftly and easily, and bodies that leap airily, weaving rhythms never taught in dancing school.

    I have talked with these children, here, there, and everywhere, and they struck me as being bright as other children, and in many ways even brighter. They have most active little imaginations. Their capacity for projecting themselves into the realm of romance and fantasy is remarkable. A joyous life is romping in their blood. They delight in music, and motion, and colour, and very often they betray a startling beauty of face and form under their filth and rags.

    But there is a Pied Piper of London Town who steals them all away. They disappear. One never sees them again, or anything that suggests them. You may look for them in vain amongst the generation of grown-ups. Here you will find stunted forms, ugly faces, and blunt and stolid minds. Grace, beauty, imagination, all the resiliency of mind and muscle, are gone. Sometimes, however, you may see a woman, not necessarily old, but twisted and deformed out of all womanhood, bloated and drunken, lift her draggled skirts and execute a few grotesque and lumbering steps upon the pavement. It is a hint that she was once one of those children who danced to the organ-grinder. Those grotesque and lumbering steps are all that is left of the promise of childhood. In the befogged recesses of her brain has arisen a fleeting memory that she was once a girl. The crowd closes in. Little girls are dancing beside her, about her, with all the pretty graces she dimly recollects, but can no more than parody with her body. Then she pants for breath, exhausted, and stumbles out through the circle. But the little girls dance on.
    i do tend to notice these engines: things that destroy people. put a human spirit in, churn out someone dead inside, or just a corpse. not all the engines are so dramatic as this. these are just the largest most devastating ones.

    these engines are in the tangible timelines; the tangible flow of events.

    this excerpt also covers cradle to grave... the way of life of a person living in this neighborhood. the course is set almost the same for every one.

    this kind of suffering that takes a person away from themselves, makes me angry.
    Last edited by inumbra; 09-18-2016 at 11:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    do you have examples? what is "environment"? is it like in @Ananke's post when she mentions the school system example? is it like 'the people of the abyss' where jack london was able to well demonstrate how 'the abyss' (east end london, 1902) created its mangled adult creatures whose minds, hearts and souls were destroyed? (stolen from them by their conditions)



    i do tend to notice these engines: things that destroy people. put a human spirit in, churn out someone dead inside, or just a corpse. not all the engines are so dramatic as this. these are just the largest most devastating ones.

    these engines are in the tangible timelines; the tangible flow of events.

    this excerpt also covers cradle to grave... the way of life of a person living in this neighborhood. the course is set almost the same for every one.

    this kind of suffering that takes a person away from themselves, makes me angry.
    Everything you are talking about is NI. Si is about the PHYSICAL, IMMEDIATE environment. It has absolutely nothing to do with "timelines" and "flow of events." I suggest you try the examples here to understand the difference. It is not the same as MBTI.

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    then there are at least two separate definition <packages> circulating about, sometimes intersecting/matching and sometimes at odds. maybe it is more like a figure eight.

    one concerns "are you a mental person or a physical person"

    the other concerns "what way do your associations work" and "how off the ground is your cerebration"

    should the two simply completely align/match? should there be no contradiction between them?

    (not that this is new, which i say only as a disclaimer. obviously we define these things differently to ourselves/uniquely even, and of course alike blobs will blob together and form larger blobs of agreement.)

    --

    also there are multiple ways though to spot the aforementioned engines. a tip off is suffering lol - everyone seems to have a certain sort of suffering going on under the conditions that seems to be unique to those conditions (although it could be *any* kind - it could be psychological suffering). cause/effect loops is part of human ability. and i agree these are more easily noticeable loops than something that is far more mystical.

    jack london's approach (regardless of his type) was he just went in and investigated, gathered intel, and most of that does it for you (though it's kind of more of a proof--showing the obvious in ways it can't be denied). you don't even have to see in time as you are in space surrounded by every sort of temporal representative: the children that are whole, the whores that are the young women, ..., the elderly brain dead woman. although you can feel/imagine the time between them, how one forms into another, they are all right there on the spot.

    same thing with all of these engines: american slavery for example. it's all in front of your face.

    of course those engines are closed systems just about. it's close to 100% conversion from whole human being to brain dead goner (or whatever output). there is little chance of escape. not all of these sorts of engines are closed systems. some are more subtle. some conjoin with other engines. but still i think they are basically right in front of one's face. even if it's something in russia that loops with something in brazil and you can only read information on the internet and have an associative convergence moment. also this is still all in the present frame. it's not connecting something from 1645 to something from 1930.

    beyond that we all know about these systems. it's in the general public consciousness. and so it is in the realm of norms. and you could place it with role. even if you spot them all spontaneously with no prior thought reference, still you hold the underlying conception already in your mind.

    test notion: if the primary information is coming through it would arise in a single situation then, associated with another situation of similar subjective feel... i guess would tell you that something is wrong. the feeling would be unsettling (and every unsettling feeling tends to be unique... except for the others that were too similar to it and pop into mind at once). but it's not as though it's in your body. it's a mental feeling that something is not right. if you are very in your body as a person, then you could feel it there, but would that mean it is in any way different in nature? not really.

    --

    also, eta: the flow of tangible events is imo. external dynamics of objects.

    is a subjective response to .
    Last edited by inumbra; 09-19-2016 at 04:56 AM. Reason: blobs

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Everything you are talking about is NI. Si is about the PHYSICAL, IMMEDIATE environment. It has absolutely nothing to do with "timelines" and "flow of events." I suggest you try the examples here to understand the difference. It is not the same as MBTI.
    what if the physical immediate environment impacts your mind, your thoughts, your emotions? (your center of mental focus) does that still count? or can it only be things like how all the holes in the wall make you feel like spiders are crawling in your belly?

    like for instance when there is a ton of traffic around me right in my space and talking such that i can't tune it all out, i become quite irritable. i have to suppress my bitchy reaction in certain settings. at home, i would not suppress it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    what if the physical immediate environment impacts your mind, your thoughts, your emotions? (your center of mental focus) does that still count? or can it only be things like how all the holes in the wall make you feel like spiders are crawling in your belly?

    like for instance when there is a ton of traffic around me right in my space and talking such that i can't tune it all out, i become quite irritable. i have to suppress my bitchy reaction in certain settings. at home, i would not suppress it.
    Well, Si is blocked with Fe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    i do tend to notice these engines: things that destroy people. put a human spirit in, churn out someone dead inside, or just a corpse. not all the engines are so dramatic as this. these are just the largest most devastating ones.

    these engines are in the tangible timelines; the tangible flow of events.

    this excerpt also covers cradle to grave... the way of life of a person living in this neighborhood. the course is set almost the same for every one.

    this kind of suffering that takes a person away from themselves, makes me angry.
    Jack London is typed as LIE, lol

    I agree with @thehotelambush on this one being Ni


    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    or can it only be things like how all the holes in the wall make you feel like spiders are crawling in your belly?
    That's a strange summary on what Si would be O_o

    ...I'll go on later, don't have time now

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    SI is just the function of mental comfort/discomfort to me. that's all. I don't think it has anything to do with beauty because I know many Si ego that do not care about beauty and vice versa for weak Si.. My room is A HUGE MESS and I don't care about it.

    No we are not super aware of whats happening in our bodies or surroundings, lol. I space out more than an average person and forgets my stuff thats IN MY HAND 24/7. Se ignoring?

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    if i'm at home and something loud (and insignificant, like a leaf blower) is going on outside my window it starts eeking into my mind/thoughts. i brush it aside several times and stop noticing it. but the more it continues the more an irritation arises in the background. once this all comes to the surface i may grumble (once a cat grumbled for me, it was adorable). there have been times i've yelled "do you fucking mind?" that's when i realize i'm being disrupted and find my earbuds or something. (while i'm brushing it aside, i still don't have full awareness of the situation... it's automatic, the brushing aside... the external reality is overridden by whatever my mind is on.)

    work is the setting (and just this job really) where i have gotten more bent out of shape. i'm required to maintain vigilance. if people pass by and i don't greet them, it is commented upon. you must notice them. and there is all the detail work (which requires a lot of concentration for me - i can't spare more for surroundings - the two are at odds). all the constant movement around me, very close, and printers sounding, and people talking and doors opening... it is like the scenario above to the 100th power. not to mention the constant direct interruptions. and i probably have ADD (the inattentive kind). focus shifting is not easy for me. i can get annoyed waiting for traffic lights because it means i have to leave my thoughts. if i don't leave them i won't notice the walk sign and will have to wait more cycles, and i usually have a destination.

    i also don't like being interrupted from conversation with another person by something from the outside. it makes communication frustrating.

    this is all pending a medication change and i've had a few rare days where all of this can exist and it doesn't jolt me from my thoughts... where i can experience my thoughts/reflections/musings or do mentally strenuous work *and* this stuff phases better in an out of the background. (also i've done things to lessen some of this - my struggle with it; i presented it as a static picture just to give an example.)

    so yes, i am highly mentally strained and it upsets me. i think primarily it's a problem of the balance of attention. mine doesn't balance well.

    i also have a compulsion to finish my thoughts/reflections and don't like being jolted from them. i have an apparently sick relationship with my thoughts and need to be with them all the time just about.

    i also like my privacy/space. i don't like people coming at me from all different directions. it startles me. i don't feel safe.

    (yes i know i need to change jobs. i'm mentally ill and it's very debilitating. and i get on myself about this all the time. i know it sucks to be confronted with someone who has trapped themselves. such people are the subject of scorn. and they are all Si ego?)

    i have always hated being interrupted, but it didn't start cropping up as a more serious 'thing' until college. i had a roommate once who would talk at me all the time or try to get my attention when i was writing papers. my major required a lot of papers. and i liked being (needed to be) in the deep zone to write them. the deep zone vs. the shallow zone are kind of my two zones right now. i've lost the middle ground of attention entirely. the deep zone is the one i default to.

    i lose my positive mood and inspiration after too many interruptions. i lose the meaning of things. my thoughts get scattered. and when they are scattered frequently over a long period of time i suffer more mental disorganization overall which makes my problem even more intense for the next go around (it spins round and round). this is why perhaps they say with ADD, the harder you try, the worse it gets. (and yes there were signs of this in childhood as well. my mom always thought i was on the edge, but i seemed to cope. i managed okay for a long time. though i could struggle to concentrate on reading a lot and would often find other means of gathering info.)

    in my last job i actually did stack file sorters very high so that no one could see me at all. eventually co-workers noticed and i didn't tell them it was deliberately to avoid people; they let me keep my tower. (i mention this because it's in a socionics description - i did it before i read that description.) in that job things i could be interrupted for were usually not things too relevant to me or my job. i had more freedom too and more paths to manage overwhelm.

    i do seem to prefer to ignore my surroundings often, in addition to ignoring them. i've thought of the Se ignoring thing too.

    but one thing is clear in all of this: i am impacted by the immediate environment around me.
    Last edited by inumbra; 09-20-2016 at 06:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    if i'm at home and something loud (and insignificant, like a leaf blower) is going on outside my window it starts eeking into my mind/thoughts. i brush it aside several times and stop noticing it. but the more it continues the more an irritation arises in the background. once this all comes to the surface i may grumble (once a cat grumbled for me, it was adorable). there have been times i've yelled "do you fucking mind?" that's when i realize i'm being disrupted and find my earbuds or something. (while i'm brushing it aside, i still don't have full awareness of the situation... it's automatic, the brushing aside... the external reality is overridden by whatever my mind is on.)
    Yes, loud noises like that can completely distract me and disrupt my concentration. It sucks that I can't always tune it out or escape. For example, at work in the library, I have to serve customers who come in and I can't just retreat at will when I'm overstimulated. Recently there was this customer with this constant, loud, obnoxious cough. Maybe he couldn't help it, but I sure found it distracting, and I felt really tempted to just slap him. Not that I would do such a thing. I did ask him a couple times if he was okay and he said yes, he was sucking on a cough drop, which would have been the next thing I would have done- offered him a cough drop. It's not polite to just tell him to leave or that he is irritating people so I was stuck listening to it for four hours straight. Since I work with the public, earplugs or noise cancelling headphones are not an option. I have to be hearing what's going on around me and be receptive to customers.

    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    work is the setting (and just this job really) where i have gotten more bent out of shape. i'm required to maintain vigilance. if people pass by and i don't greet them, it is commented upon. you must notice them. and there is all the detail work (which requires a lot of concentration for me - i can't spare more for surroundings - the two are at odds). all the constant movement around me, very close, and printers sounding, and people talking and doors opening... it is like the scenario above to the 100th power. not to mention the constant direct interruptions. and i probably have ADD (the inattentive kind). focus shifting is not easy for me. i can get annoyed waiting for traffic lights because it means i have to leave my thoughts. if i don't leave them i won't notice the walk sign and will have to wait more cycles, and i usually have a destination.
    Another possibility would be HSP (Highly Sensitive Person.) I'm not a psychologist though, I can't diagnose you. I have HSP and some types of stimuli just put me over edge. Certain noises, too much going on at once that I must pay attention to. I can be hypersensitive to some details and completely unaware of others. Detail work makes me anxious because I'm always afraid of overlooking something important.


    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    i also don't like being interrupted from conversation with another person by something from the outside. it makes communication frustrating.
    Yes to that!

    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    this is all pending a medication change and i've had a few rare days where all of this can exist and it doesn't jolt me from my thoughts... where i can experience my thoughts/reflections/musings or do mentally strenuous work *and* this stuff phases better in an out of the background. (also i've done things to lessen some of this - my struggle with it; i presented it as a static picture just to give an example.)

    so yes, i am highly mentally strained and it upsets me. i think primarily it's a problem of the balance of attention. mine doesn't balance well.
    Medication can make a significant difference for some people. I don't think I have ADD but I have some issues with attention balance as well- either hyperfocus or difficulty focusing. For me it could be any one of several factors- HSP, lack of sleep, diet, stress in life, hormones, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    i also have a compulsion to finish my thoughts/reflections and don't like being jolted from them. i have an apparently sick relationship with my thoughts and need to be with them all the time just about.

    i also like my privacy/space. i don't like people coming at me from all different directions. it startles me. i don't feel safe.
    Yes, yes, yes!

    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    (yes i know i need to change jobs. i'm mentally ill and it's very debilitating. and i get on myself about this all the time. i know it sucks to be confronted with someone who has trapped themselves. such people are the subject of scorn. and they are all Si ego?)
    Sorry to hear that. What do you do for a job and why do you feel you need to change?

    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    i have always hated being interrupted, but it didn't start cropping up as a more serious 'thing' until college. i had a roommate once who would talk at me all the time or try to get my attention when i was writing papers. my major required a lot of papers. and i liked being (needed to be) in the deep zone to write them. the deep zone vs. the shallow zone are kind of my two zones right now. i've lost the middle ground of attention entirely. the deep zone is the one i default to.
    I hate interruptions as well too. The exception would be when I'm doing a really unpleasant task and I could use the temporary break from it. But even then I might resent the interruption if I end up getting into the zone because I might have a hard time getting back into it again.

    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    i lose my positive mood and inspiration after too many interruptions. i lose the meaning of things. my thoughts get scattered. and when they are scattered frequently over a long period of time i suffer more mental disorganization overall which makes my problem even more intense for the next go around (it spins round and round). this is why perhaps they say with ADD, the harder you try, the worse it gets. (and yes there were signs of this in childhood as well. my mom always thought i was on the edge, but i seemed to cope. i managed okay for a long time. though i could struggle to concentrate on reading a lot and would often find other means of gathering info.)
    I'm probably not ADD but I still relate to what you say about interruptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    in my last job i actually did stack file sorters very high so that no one could see me at all. eventually co-workers noticed and i didn't tell them it was deliberately to avoid people; they let me keep my tower. (i mention this because it's in a socionics description - i did it before i read that description.) in that job things i could be interrupted for were usually not things too relevant to me or my job. i had more freedom too and more paths to manage overwhelm.
    What socionics description was it? What socionics type do you identify with?
    Ha, ha about the file sorters. I guess we all come up with our own ways to cope.

    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    i do seem to prefer to ignore my surroundings often, in addition to ignoring them. i've thought of the Se ignoring thing too.

    but one thing is clear in all of this: i am impacted by the immediate environment around me.
    Same here, often prefer to ignore my surroundings but nonetheless am impacted by them. Se PoLR though.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by chips and underwear View Post
    Another possibility would be HSP (Highly Sensitive Person.) I'm not a psychologist though, I can't diagnose you.
    i've considered this before and usually find that some of it fits; some of it doesn't. there have been a lot of threads on the forum with this in the past, which i think i usually felt ambivalent about. anyway probably the treatment path would be similar for me regardless.
     
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/26/highly-sensitive-people-signs-habits_n_4810794.html :

    1. Y
    2. depends
    3. try to hide it, so N
    4. Y - def don't like being in a fishbowl making an idiot of myself or revealing just how out of shape i am. i feel embarrassed.
    5. Y
    6. it depends - i am sensitive to wrong decisions; but i'm not always *upset* about them. also wrong decisions are not "feelings" ; but mistakes that are more apparent in retrospect kind of
    7. N
    8. N/A
    9. not really - i work best alone
    10. maybe - i mean i am quite mentally ill so i would guess Y
    11. Y? - it's just i also have to consider myself my whole life and *when* this started...
    12. N/it depends
    13. it depends? - i cry sometimes; i don't cry at the drop of a hat; i prefer to *not* cry in front of anyone; i *am* emotionally sensitive though, yes
    14. it depends
    15. Y?
    16. Y

    http://hsperson.com/test/highly-sensitive-test/
    got 15 (so according to that i would just barely be HSP)


    Quote Originally Posted by chips
    Yes, loud noises like that can completely distract me and disrupt my concentration. It sucks that I can't always tune it out or escape. For example, at work in the library, I have to serve customers who come in and I can't just retreat at will when I'm overstimulated.
    my situation is rather similar, hence needing to change jobs. it would be so nice to just be able to work alone. my peace of mind would be much better for it.

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    Okay, here are my responses. I didn't add up my total because some are not a definite yes or no, but overall, I think I would clearly fall into the HSP category.

    1. I am easily overwhelmed by strong sensory input.
    Yes

    2. I seem to be aware of subtleties in my environment.
    Depends on what they are and the context of the situation. I can either be hyper-aware or hyper-oblivious

    3. Other people’s moods affect me.
    Yes, it’s difficult for me to tune them out

    4. I tend to be very sensitive to pain.
    Yes

    5. I find myself needing to withdraw during busy days,into bed or into a darkened room or any place where I can have some privacy and relief from stimulation.
    I have some need to withdraw but not quite in the manner described. I don’t need to withdraw from stimulation entirely. Just certain types of stimulation. Withdrawing into bed or into a darkened room sounds rather extreme.

    6. I am particularly sensitive to the effects of caffeine.
    Yes

    7. I am easily overwhelmed by things like bright lights, strong smells,coarse fabrics,or sirens close by.
    Lights- no, smells- yes, fabrics- no, sirens- very much

    8. I have a rich,complex inner life.
    Very much

    9. I am made uncomfortable by loud noises.
    Yes!

    10. I am deeply moved by the arts or music.
    Very much

    11. My nervous system sometimes feels so frazzled that I just have to go off by myself.
    Somewhat

    12. I am conscientious.
    Very much, to a fault sometimes

    13. I startle easily.
    Yes!

    14. I get rattled when I have a lot to do in a short amount of time.
    Yes, I get panicky in these situations.

    15. When people are uncomfortable in a physical environment I tend to know what needs to be done to make it more comfortable (like changing the lighting or the seating).
    Sometimes I can, but more typical of me is to not be aware until they request something.

    16. I am annoyed when people try to get me to do too many things at once.
    Very much.

    17.I try hard to avoid making mistakes or forgetting things.
    Very much.

    18. I make a point to avoid violent movies and TV shows.
    Depends. I know it’s not real so I can detach somewhat from it, but overly graphic violent scences I find disturbing and try to avoid. If it’s just some people punching each other, I can tolerate watching it, if it’s lots of blood and gore I will likely look away.

    19. I become unpleasantly aroused when a lot is going on around me.
    Depends. If there is a lot going on around me but I can be an observer and not have to get involved, it doesn’t particularly bother me. If I’m forced to attend to all of the different things, then I easily get overwhelmed.

    20. Being very hungry creates a strong reaction in me,disrupting my concentration or mood.
    Yes, very much.

    21. Changes in my life shake me up.
    Depends on the type and magnitude of the change. To some degree, yes, but probably no more or less than the average person
    .
    22. I notice and enjoy delicate or fine scents, tastes, sounds, works of art.
    Yes

    23. I find it unpleasant to have a lot going on at once.
    Depends.

    24. I make it a high priority to arrange my life to avoid upsetting or overwhelming situations.
    One of my top priorities in life for better or for worse.

    25. I am bothered by intense stimuli, like loud noises or chaotic scenes.
    Depends. Some loud noises really bother me- mostly sudden loud noises or really squeaky noises. Chaotic scenes- maybe if I am personally involved in them, otherwise don’t really much care.

    26. When I must compete or be observed while performing a task, I become so nervous or shaky that I do much worse than I would otherwise.
    Somewhat. I hate being watched. I’m not sure how much it affects my performance but it definitely makes me feel uneasy.

    27. When I was a child, my parents or teachers seemed to see me as sensitive or shy.
    Yes. Moreso sensitive than shy.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    One factor I feel had been overlooked about Si.

    Si is in part related to the concept of the conservation of energy. Si types do things that will conserve their energy as opposed to spending it. This is true for all four base types.

    Although it is matched with an Xe element - so the flavour of conservation, the focus, from what I've observed is different. This is why you get sloppy SLIs and outgoing SEIs. Further an Fe element can lead to a more artistic aesthetic in their living situation and a Te element a more utilitarian aesthetic. The Si is still apparent in both.

    Conservation of energy, mental, physical and emotional energy, is a huge focus for Si people. Altering that energy level from a surplus or deficit is a defining feature in their daily lives.

    Se valuers might come to misunderstandings, or frustrations at the Si types habit of conserving energy in day to day outcomes.

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    Example: "why walk when you can drive?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    Example: "why walk when you can drive?"
    lol just stop. that's also a terrible example. the XSEs in my family are fond of walking all the time, they walk fast, and they like to get in their exercise. i walk everywhere because i don't have a car, though i can take the bus - my decisions are made based on *time* usually. like seriously i'm trying to get rid of all the shit i can't relate to in this thread, not add to it.

    eta: since it came up, i don't walk because it's more "naturalistic" either. my parents, both Si types are/were into that and i found it dreadfully dull. i rarely wanted to go on those excursions. there's more context to this of course in that my dad forced us to go on them. i never knew when he would say the excursion was over. he would cut strange patterns through the woods and i had no idea where i was. i tried not to complain because it would piss him off and he was explosive once pissed off.

    if the setting was magical looking i might imagine it was 200 years in the past or try to use scenarios like that to entertain myself.

    it's not that i don't like "nature" - i see animals as kind of like spirits, and i can see trees that way too. but also like every tree looks just about the same. my mom will often ooh and ahh out loud about flowers and birds, interrupting whatever we were talking about and it's like i've seen flowers before; i've seen birds before... meh. who cares.

    i like observing crows but it's more of an experiment trying to understand more about their minds and consciousness. unfortunately i don't keep up with it well because i usually only am outside when walking to and from work or running errands.

    i care about saving the natural world so it's not like i don't appreciate it at all. and of course it is amazing and beautiful, but i don't feel a need to like soak it in or something generally.
    Last edited by inumbra; 09-26-2016 at 03:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    Example: "why walk when you can drive?"
    Ahem, that's my motto too. There is a store right across the highway that I could walk to in less than 5 minutes. I have when someone forced it upon my person, lol, but I still drive when I am not coerced into walking. The sun is too hot here to walk.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    lol just stop. that's also a terrible example. the XSEs in my family are fond of walking all the time, they walk fast, and they like to get in their exercise. i walk everywhere because i don't have a car, though i can take the bus - my decisions are made based on *time* usually. like seriously i'm trying to get rid of all the shit i can't relate to in this thread, not add to it.
    This was an example of a general attitude and frame of mind, not meant to be literally transcribed in each Si's circumstance. All types exercise, that is not fully type related.

    If you can't relate to many of the foundation principles of Si then maybe you are not this sociotype.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Ahem, that's my motto too. There is a store right across the highway that I could walk to in less than 5 minutes. I have when someone forced it upon my person, lol, but I still drive when I am not coerced into walking. The sun is too hot here to walk.
    I know a SLI who is the same way, he would never walk anywhere in the heat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    This was an example of a general attitude and frame of mind, not meant to be literally transcribed in each Si's circumstance. All types exercise, that is not fully type related.
    i know, but when you go to specific examples they always go bad like this. i have noticed Si types who are very into regulating their energy - like LSE uncle makes sure he has the food/water he needs during exercise to keep performing at optimal. (though i would think anyone into intense exercise would have to figure out how not to faint from exhaustion and make it all the way - though he *is* going off of internal perception of his energy, like he will talk about it, and he regulates it fluidly.)

    i like my thinking at optimal at all times, but i've actually done a poor job at keeping that. i just feel pushed at and pulled at by everything it feels, and i don't counter it well. failure at regulating my health in all ways is one of the reasons i'm stuck in the mess i'm in. despite how i want my brain to do better, i will still stay up too late thinking about pointless shit for the stimulation of it (though it's not entirely purposeless either). though i think if i do have ADD (it seeks stimulation) that might be part of the issue.

    If you can't relate to many of the foundation principles of Si then maybe you are not this sociotype.
    you are one of the ones who is so insistent i am this type (if not the most insistent).

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    Intense exercise isn't an Si thing, it's Se. I know what Si and Se are even if I can't explain them, and I don't think you're Si lead at all. Si is also not about conserving energy either. Si stereotypes are laughably wrong but I don't think you have it quite right either. I don't think Si types like to vigorously exercise much either since vigorous physical action is a trait of Se and Se tends to make Si types at least mildly uncomfortable. (Se = likes energetic stimulation and concrete action, Si = likes something I can't quite describe but I know it when I encounter it).

    Well, I think I would type you as INFp from what I've read.

    Also, PoLR is not a blind spot. I'm not sure how many people here actually want to know what it is. When I had an epiphany about what it was, it terrified me and I was thankful that I'm probably a Creative subtype so mine doesn't have to be so bad. I feel sorry for the Dominant subtypes especially though.
    Last edited by Pallas; 09-24-2016 at 09:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    I know a SLI who is the same way, he would never walk anywhere in the heat.
    It is not just the heat for me...





    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    i know, but when you go to specific examples they always go bad like this. i have noticed Si types who are very into regulating their energy - like LSE uncle makes sure he has the food/water he needs during exercise to keep performing at optimal. (though i would think anyone into intense exercise would have to figure out how not to faint from exhaustion and make it all the way - though he *is* going off of internal perception of his energy, like he will talk about it, and he regulates it fluidly.)

    i like my thinking at optimal at all times, but i've actually done a poor job at keeping that. i just feel pushed at and pulled at by everything it feels, and i don't counter it well. failure at regulating my health in all ways is one of the reasons i'm stuck in the mess i'm in. despite how i want my brain to do better, i will still stay up too late thinking about pointless shit for the stimulation of it (though it's not entirely purposeless either). though i think if i do have ADD (it seeks stimulation) that might be part of the issue.

    you are one of the ones who is so insistent i am this type (if not the most insistent).
    Ill come back to this later. Fwiw you could easily be this sociotype, I just said that to cover the bases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    Ill come back to this later. Fwiw you could easily be this sociotype, I just said that to cover the bases.
    it's not really a "fwiw" - your leanings on the matter are and have been quite obvious (which i already said in my last post). you've even said the thing about conserving energy before in the shoutbox and attempted to apply it to me indirectly. like you are constantly on this. and now you want to *come back* to it? like, you never left it to begin with. it seems to be very important to you in fact that my self-typing match your opinion.

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