Ashton

[Joy]

First and foremost,

aggressive assertion of "facts" does NOT equal Te (trying to assert your opinion by telling others that they're stupid or illogical is more Se than Te)

Secondly, if you want to make fun of me, do it here. This thread is about Ashton's type.



now... I've been thinking that Ashton is ESTp for a while, and the fact that FDG agrees makes it seem probable. However, Peter has said for a while that he doesn't think Ashton is a Se type because he doesn't have the proper command over the Se he uses. He tries to sound extremely intelligent, and it's a way of attempting to assert dominance. But... he is almost *too* Se to be ESTp though... if that makes sense. ESTps are obnoxious in a more playful way. They behave in a sorta dominating way, but it's still just fucking around (as opposed to outright attacking people). They don't want to be disliked, and they know that if they're *too* aggressive they will be, so their interactions are sorta this balancing act between asserting dominance and being charismatic. So... what type is he? He tries to be logical in a manly sorta way like guys are "supposed to" but I really do think it's possible that he does the things he does with ethical motives (in a purely socionics sense of the word). When he talks in the chat or on the forum, it always feels like he's creating sides and trying to rally people to his side. The way he seems to never be in a relaxed mode *does* seem more of an EJ thing than EP... I think that ENFj is more likely than ESTp. He isn't *obviously* Ti, and Fe makes sense for him... but if I go into why I'll get bitched at by the Fe defenders in the forum. (It sorta has to do with what I was saying ealier about the "supposed to" thing... I think male ExFjs feel compelled to act like society's expectations of men. They're still expressive though.) The Si PoLR makes more sense for him than the Fi PoLR.

[FDG]

Bullshit. He's ESTp.

[Joy]

I don't know. I was certain that he's ESTp for a long time, but I think we can look like our activity partners, particularly females looking like their ethical activity partner and males acting like their logical activity partner.

Your being certain that he's ESTp makes it seem probable though.

[oyburger]

I've always thought that he's ESTp because he seems so similar to Daniel. When Daniel was younger he used to rally people onto different sides of conflict too and still does in a more subtle way.

Also, if an ESTp doesn't care about what you think, then they aren't going to care about being too aggressive and they'll say and do whatever they want to at that point.

[Joy]

I guess I'd have to observe more of his interactions to see if he ever really makes any attempts to be charismatic.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[FDG]

Ahahaahaah lol, it's a wonderful and funny analogy actually Very true too. Where do you have observed them? They're more apparent when playing sports, and in dancing-related places

p.s. the aggressivness is easily explanable in both of us by the testosterone peak occurring in october

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Joy]

it's not october

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[FDG]

it's not october

Why? I can't find the article right now, but I am quite sure it is.

Oh I see Diana's last post. Yeah, it peaks in the fall and it's at its lowest during the spring. I *think* it might be related to the higher fat consumption during the transition from summer to fall, as opposed to the lowering of it during the spring.

[Joy]

I mean that the current date is september 10

[FDG]

I mean that the current date is september 10

??? sure?

[Expat]

First and foremost,

aggressive assertion of "facts" does NOT equal Te (trying to assert your opinion by telling others that they're stupid or illogical is more Se than Te)
.

Regardless of Ashton's type, I think this has been a source of confusion.

ENTjs are opinionated and may become impatient with those they see as not grasping what they're being told, but the primary mode is not saying - or implying - that the other person is ignorant or stupid in a mocking way.

Another way of putting it -- the ENTj's dual is the ISFj. The ENTj's most natural way of acting is when they're addressing their duals. Would an ISFj appreciate being addressed in the way Joy described? No way.

[Joy]

Just because I think Joy is stupid and I happen to say it, doesn't mean I'm ESTp (or ENFj... wth?).

you are correct

[Angel von Himmel]

I think the reason people have been saying this is that it is a general trend that seems to have managed to reproduce itself in other similar manifestations in similar conditions that have absolutly nothing to do with Joy.

[aestrivex]

i dont think ashton is ENTj at all; ESTp makes a lot of sense in his case since i think that the occasions in which he has not been rude and abrasive have been very few and far between.

i don't have any clue why ENFj is being considered however.

[Animal]

Another way of putting it -- the ENTj's dual is the ISFj. The ENTj's most natural way of acting is when they're addressing their duals. Would an ISFj appreciate being addressed in the way Joy described? No way.

I don't know anyone of any type who appreciates being addressed as stupid or illogical. Even the supposedly masochistic INFps expect to be treated with some semblance of dignity in their relations with ESTps.

[Joy]

that's not what he said... it has nothing to do with me


read mcnew's post

[Expat]

That's just the way I address Joy and is the way I would address anyone that's vapid, self-centered, and manipulative. And I get severely aggravated in general with people who are being unreasonable and/or oblivious. I'm not the only one around here that gets ragingly annoyed with her. I guess they're all ESTps then by this line of reasoning lol.

I started my post with "regardless of Ashton's type" and I meant it as a general comment on misunderstanding ENTjs, not limited in any way to you, Joy or your interactions.

[Expat]

I don't know anyone of any type who appreciates being addressed as stupid or illogical. Even the supposedly masochistic INFps expect to be treated with some semblance of dignity in their relations with ESTps.

Be that as it may, my point was that a sort of overbearing, arrogant and somewhat aggressive behavior sometimes seems to be seen as a characteristic of ENTjs. I feel in safer ground when explaining why this makes no sense from the point of view of ENTj-ISFj interactions.

[Joy]

that's not what he said... it has nothing to do with me


read mcnew's post

Which post of mine are you replying to?

the one right above it

[Joy]

yeah... cause I've NEVER questioned ANYONE'S type unless they were unkind to me

[Angel von Himmel]

It is funny, this common pattern among some people when their type is questioned is to immediatelly assume under paranoid pretenses that it is due to some sort of "Agenda" or "Vendetta" against them when in reality whoever is probably just being honest and doesn't give a crap otherwise.

[Joy]

you think you're the first?

[Angel von Himmel]

It is funny, this common pattern among some people when their type is questioned is to immediatelly assume under paranoid pretenses that it is due to some sort of "Agenda" or "Vendetta" against them when in reality whoever is probably just being honest and doesn't give a crap otherwise.

Shut up mcnew, it isn't a pattern. One iteration does not a pattern make.

There is a pretty apparent pattern that does not specifically involve joy, but I suppose it is pointless discussing any of it with you since you seem to be so enamored to believe that it a behaviour that is always aimed specifically towards Joy. Well, not so ... I guess this all means you are not really willing to talk about it.

[Benny]

RMC, would you admit that Joy can be rather irritating.

[Angel von Himmel]

I think she can be irritating, but on the other hand I think that people are allowing this so called "fact" to get away with what she is trying to communicate, and is lost in translation meerly on that account. Of course, I can not really disagree totally with what she is saying, either.

And also, I have seen him act in similar ways towards other people and situations that do not involve Joy, and are really not all that agravating. I do not buy that it is just towards Joy or that it necessarily comes from a source of irritation. Atleast not an object form of irritation [maybe in a subjective way for Ashton, though] ...

[Creepy-pokeball]

Nevermind, I found some studies on it. It does peak in the fall! Interesting.

That explains all the freaking Leo's that bankrupt me via birthdays.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Another way of putting it -- the ENTj's dual is the ISFj. The ENTj's most natural way of acting is when they're addressing their duals. Would an ISFj appreciate being addressed in the way Joy described? No way.

I don't know anyone of any type who appreciates being addressed as stupid or illogical. Even the supposedly masochistic INFps expect to be treated with some semblance of dignity in their relations with ESTps.

Get your own cross Mr INFp

[olduser]

I think he's a fantastic writer. His actual character is hard to pin down because he uses many different voices in his writing, and his writing is the basis of our analysis.

Basically: Give up. it's too difficult, and the reward means nothing!

And more importantly-- we should let ashton be whatever type he chooses to best supplement his existence! Where the fuck do you people get off trying to re-arrange and pick at someone else's self-concept?!

[olduser]

maybe not!

[Benny]

I think she can be irritating, but on the other hand I think that people are allowing this so called "fact" to get away with what she is trying to communicate, and is lost in translation meerly on that account. Of course, I can not really disagree totally with what she is saying, either.

And also, I have seen him act in similar ways towards other people and situations that do not involve Joy, and are really not all that agravating. I do not buy that it is just towards Joy or that it necessarily comes from a source of irritation. Atleast not an object form of irritation [maybe in a subjective way for Ashton, though] ...

Right, so you agree.

The rest is counterproductive.

[oyburger]

I like Ashton a lot, I think for the most part he's funny, however, he reminds me of a pet cobra.

[Angel von Himmel]

I think she can be irritating, but on the other hand I think that people are allowing this so called "fact" to get away with what she is trying to communicate, and is lost in translation meerly on that account. Of course, I can not really disagree totally with what she is saying, either.

And also, I have seen him act in similar ways towards other people and situations that do not involve Joy, and are really not all that agravating. I do not buy that it is just towards Joy or that it necessarily comes from a source of irritation. Atleast not an object form of irritation [maybe in a subjective way for Ashton, though] ...

Right, so you agree.

The rest is counterproductive.

I agree because it might be true, but the fact that a specific irrelevant issue that does not even cover the entire scope of the whole issue and is actually used to unnecessarily distract from and confuse the main issue is just as counter-productive.

And by that I am referring to the first piece of counter-productive garbage that has absolutly nothing to do with the point of the thread.

Just because I think Joy is stupid and I happen to say it, doesn't mean I'm ESTp (or ENFj... wth?). This thread is ridiculous.