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Thread: Model D

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    Si, Ni, Te and Fe deal with symbols/abstractions, so there are no spatial relationships. This means that there are only two ways to organize objects/subjects: 1) using different categories and 2) temporal-sequential ordering. This is probably why SEI, SLI, LSE etc. are aware of the time and typically avoid being late.

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    I made a post about spatial coding processing. You might find it interesting if you are not already familiar with it.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ric-Handedness
    Measuring you right now

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    I am considering Model D mk4. I will explain more later.

    IEE

    primary functions: NeFi SiFe // FeNi FiSe

    secondary functions: NiTe SeTi // TiNe TeSi


    EII

    primary functions: FiNe FeSi // NiFe SeFi

    secondary functions: TeNi TiSe // NeTi SiTe


    LIE

    primary functions: TeNi TiSe // NeTi SiTe

    secondary functions: FiNe FeSi // NiFe SeFi


    ILI

    primary functions: NiTe SeTi // TiNe TeSi

    secondary functions: NeFi SiFe // FeNi FiSe



    There are four natural groups:

    A) SLE, LSI, LIE, ILI

    B) SEE, ESI, EIE, IEI

    C) LSE, SLI, ILE, LII

    D) ESE, SEI, IEE, EII

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    I don't think the so-called Mental and Vital tracks in Socionics make any sense. ILI: Ni -> Te -> Si -> Fe etc. My view is that NiTe cannot process logical information by itself. It needs SeTi, TiNe and TeSi. Then there is also an emotional response. Furthermore, it is obvious that ILI's TiNe and FiSe are Vital functions. (We usually don't see Fi- in ILI... "it comes spontaneously, unexpectedly" ... i.e. a Vital function)

    NiTe // TiNe ... SiFe // FiSe.

    FeNi SiFe // NeFi FiSe is not possible, so Model D mk4 must be accurate.

  5. #125
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    Model "D"

    Am I really the only one who is amused by this?
    New Youtube [x] Get Typed! [x]
    Celebs [x] Theory [x] Tumblr [x]

    *********** 21-04-19:
    "Looks like a mystic that just arrived to battle and staring out at the battle, ready to unleash"



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    That makes me think... A fitting counterpart could be Model "O" haha
    New Youtube [x] Get Typed! [x]
    Celebs [x] Theory [x] Tumblr [x]

    *********** 21-04-19:
    "Looks like a mystic that just arrived to battle and staring out at the battle, ready to unleash"



  7. #127
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    socionics 2.png

    Model A assumes that logical information is transferred from one block to another, and then processed by Ethics. The problem here is that information about relationships between physical objects is not compatible with information about relationships between subjects/objects. For example, "It is 15 feet 6 inches in diameter" doesn't mean anything to Ethics.

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    Pushing it around these parts too, eh Tellus?

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    LII's FeNi... strong, Mental, secondary:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBsfWSQVtYA

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    I wish to understand this model better but I must admit that I haven’t been able to gather much from this thread alone. I’m especially interested in your theory that LII apparently has TeSi as “a secondary ego”, which has been pointed out to me by @Troll Nr 007. Are there any other sources I could consult to study model D?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Overthinker View Post
    I wish to understand this model better but I must admit that I haven’t been able to gather much from this thread alone. I’m especially interested in your theory that LII apparently has TeSi as “a secondary ego”, which has been pointed out to me by @Troll Nr 007. Are there any other sources I could consult to study model D?
    No, there are no other sources. LII has TeSi as a secondary ego in Model D mk3. TeSi (or SiTe) is about deductive reasoning (and facts) in my view, so it makes sense that TeSi are Mental functions in LII (mathematician etc). But this could be an inaccurate description. I am considering mk4 instead (see above, especially post 127)... LII has weak, Mental and primary TeSi.

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    Jay Leno is probably an ESE / ESFj.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUg_ukBwsyo

    ESFJ Hobbies (PerC)

    "i love to build legos and craft things i'm very engineery like that"

    "i really love making things with my hands. arts and crafts, building things, using power tools, etc."

    "I build and repair 'things' for fun."

    -----

    https://www.reddit.com/r/enfj/commen...c_based_stuff/

    "So, I'm very certain I'm an enfj. I read on some websites that our interior Ti can cause us to get a nice relationship to logic, at least in non-decision making situations. I'm wondering if I'm the only enfj that loves math to death? I really really like doing math, sudoku, remembering a sequence of numbers or anything else that would usually be connected to Ti, so is it normal for enfjs to be this way?"

    "Hey there! ENFJ here. One of my undergrad degrees is in Physics, with a research focus and senior thesis on Quantum Optics and Atomtronics. And, I also love math to death. For me, it's the interrelation and theory behind mathematics and their application to real-life phenomena that absolutely fascinate me (hence my draw toward quantum mechanics and theoretical physics). So yes, at least for me, I'm also an extremely 'mathy' ENFJ."

    "i took 2.5 years of logic in middle school, and LOVED it. i retained a lot of the skills and principles i learned in it, and also do enjoy most math (especially geometry, probably because it's so close to logic). So i've been wondering if it's the Ti in me as well, but i've also thought it might just be that I was taught that stuff when I was the right age to be susceptible to it."

    "I am an ENFJ, and I love math. Being iNtuitive helps ENFJs understand logical and mathematical concepts and patterns. It's also very easy for us to understand how math relates to the real world. However, INTPs and INTJs are stereotypically more likely to excel in math than any other type, partly because of their dominant Ti. That is a very broad generalization though; it does not mean that ENFJs or any other type can't be interested in and good at math.

    I seriously considered becoming a math teacher, which would be a very good fit for an ENFJ who loves math. I went in a very different direction and became a lawyer. I love my job, but sometimes I think about retiring early from the legal profession and becoming a high school math teacher."
    Last edited by Petter; 11-24-2018 at 03:55 PM.

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    Last edited by Petter; 12-29-2018 at 09:03 AM.

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    Model D mk5

    Thinking and Intuition are superfluous. They correspond to the prefrontal cortex and working memory, so they are always dependent on Sensing functions. Si+ is about object recognition/patterns and scenarios/mental projections. Se+ is about an object's position in space and similarities/differences between objects. They are directly related to the ventral stream and the dorsal stream. Si+ and Se+ are detailed and specific, Si- and Se- are general.

    Fe and Fi are harder to define but "mental state attribution"/Theory of Mind and mirroring/valuing are plausible. These two distinctly different processes contribute to social cognition.

    Fe deals with "what" questions and Fi deals with "how" questions.

    More recently, Christian Keysers at the Social Brain Lab and colleagues have shown that people who are more empathic according to self-report questionnaires have stronger activations both in the mirror system for hand actions and the mirror system for emotions, providing more direct support for the idea that the mirror system is linked to empathy. Some researchers observed that the human mirror system does not passively respond to the observation of actions but is influenced by the mindset of the observer. Researchers observed the link of the mirror neurons during empathetic engagement in patient care.



    SSS claims that white sensing is about facts, and ILI has 2-
    dimensional S (or Si) in Model A. I think that is inaccurate. My view is that ILI has very strong Si+ and very weak Si-. He or she typically knows everything about a subject.

    +S — beauty and prettiness (spatial relations), harmony of lines, colours, forms; comfort, convenience, pleasant sensations; sensory delights, pleasure and tactile sensibility; vision of details, aspiration to concretize a scope.

    −S — discomfort and comfort, aesthetics, beauty and ugliness, harmony and disharmony, contrast in sensations; vision of an overall picture and concrete details.



    Se must be related to the parietal lobe. But LII has 1-dimensional Se according to Model A. It doesn't add up.

    https://www.i3mindware.com/5-iq-factors

    Thinking skills

    Gf: Fluid intelligence – reasoning and novel problem solving ability

    Gv: Visual intelligence – the ability to manipulate mental visual images to solve problems

    https://www.hrplab.org/psychometric-iq-definitions/

    Doing tasks involving controlled attention, working memory, executive processes, and fluid reasoning (Gf) have been consistently linked in in the research to electrical signalling activity in the prefrontal and parietal lobes of the brain. These findings have resulted in the influential Parieto-Frontal Integration Theory of intelligence (P-FIT).



    Consider Dario Nardi's brain map. Is SEE / ESFP really an Se dominant type?

    brain SEE.jpg


    ------


    Neuroticism (high vs. low) should probably be included in the model as well.

    Honesty-Humility and Conscientiousness are also important, but I think they could be explained by high/low PFC activity.

    Intelligence is included in Cattell's 16PF.
    Last edited by Petter; 08-19-2019 at 06:35 AM.

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    EII

    Introvert

    Fi+ (Se+) // Si+ (Fe+) ..... strong functions

    Fe- (Si-) // Se- (Fi-) ..... weak functions




    ILI

    Introvert

    Si+ (Fe+) // Fi+ (Se+) ..... strong functions

    Se- (Fi-) // Fe- (Si-) ..... weak functions




    ILE

    Extrovert

    Se+ (Fi+) // Fe+ (Si+) ..... strong functions

    Si- (Fe-) // Fi- (Se-) ..... weak functions




    SEI

    Introvert

    Fe- (Si-) // Se- (Fi-) ..... strong functions

    Fi+ (Se+) // Si+ (Fe+) ..... weak functions

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    extraversion vs. introversion

    the right prefrontal cortex: (very) active vs. (fairly) inactive

    theory of mind/"mental state attribution" (Fe) vs. mirror neurons/empathy (Fi)

    the ventral stream (Si) vs. the dorsal stream (Se)

    ------

    This is why we have 16 personality types (2 x 2 x 4).

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    left prefrontal cortex: (very) active vs. (fairly) inactive

    We have either 2 subtypes (assertive and humble) or 32 types.

    "The right side recognizes categories, but rather than placing individuals in categories, it tends to identify ways in which an individual differs from the category, so it is more about nuance."



    EDIT 19-08-2019

    I think this is even better than left vs. right PFC:

    deductive reasoning

    vs.

    abductive reasoning / inductive reasoning (including analogy and scenario thinking) .... '+'



    Last edited by Petter; 08-19-2019 at 06:01 AM.

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    Both Se and Si include temporal-sequential ordering and spatial ordering in Model D mk5. But they could maybe explain why some people are musically inclined and others are sporty (i.e. two subtypes).


    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...10945213801219

    "It is proposed the LH makes an important contribution to mental rotation and the understanding of Euclidean geometrical shapes."


    Dario Nardi: "O1 Visual Engineer: Mentally rotate, measure, arrange, assemble and explode objects with a focus on functionality."


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11418859

    "Our current understanding of spatial behaviour and parietal lobe function is largely based on the belief that spatial neglect in humans (a lack of awareness of space on the side of the body contralateral to a brain injury) is typically associated with lesions of the posterior parietal lobe. However, in monkeys, this disorder is observed after lesions of the superior temporal cortex, a puzzling discrepancy between the species. Here we show that, contrary to the widely accepted view, the superior temporal cortex is the neural substrate of spatial neglect in humans, as it is in monkeys. Unlike the monkey brain, spatial awareness in humans is a function largely confined to the right superior temporal cortex, a location topographically reminiscent of that for language on the left. Hence, the decisive phylogenetic transition from monkey to human brain seems to be a restriction of a formerly bilateral function to the right side, rather than a shift from the temporal to the parietal lobe. One may speculate that this lateralization of spatial awareness parallels the emergence of an elaborate representation for language on the left side."


    http://www.brainmaster.com/help/Posi...n_function.htm

    "T6, principal function: emotional understanding ... other functions: facial recognition, symbol recognition, auditory processing"



    ------


    The left hemisphere is abstract/symbolic and analytic. The right hemisphere is concrete/real and synthetic.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFs9WO2B8uI&t=443s

    "When we already know something is important and we want to be precise about it, we use our left hemispheres."



    Web Intelligence Meets Brain Informatics: First WICI International Workshop

    "Many studies have found the activation of the right prefrontal cortex in inductive reasoning. For instance, Goel found activation of the right ventral lateral PFC (BA 47) in hypothesis generation, while right dorsolateral PFC (BA 46) in hypothesis maintenance. Christoff also observed the activation of right PFC in relation integration. Another study from Goel even showed significant right hemisphere lateralization. Goel have reviewed som literatures and then concluded that RH play a special role to inductive reasoning, although this role is still ambiguous."



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy

    "On the contrary, Ibn Taymiyya, Francis Bacon and later John Stuart Mill argued that analogy is simply a special case of induction."
    Last edited by Petter; 07-16-2019 at 07:40 AM.

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    This is my current view on the functions (or IM elements).

    functions 1.gif

    functions 2.gif
    Last edited by Petter; 07-28-2019 at 07:55 AM.

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    http://en.socionicasys.org/teorija/d...ichkov/aspekty

    1. The essence component is fundamental, essential properties of an object that single out it among other objects.

    2. The relation component is relations between essential properties, comparison of essential properties with each other.

    Let us illustrate these components by deriving information about such a usual object as a table. A table is often wooden, right-angled; it has legs supporting the table top. The basic feature of any table is its horizontal surface resting on something since we use tables to put something on (for instance, a meal), to write, to eat, to work or to do anything else. In this example we have considered essential properties of the table, i.e., fundamental features that basically define any table.

    People invented a large variety of tables: writing-tables, coffee tables, kitchen and other ones. There are tables with one, two, three, or four legs. Tables are parts of furniture sets: for example, a coffee table and to chairs; or a wardrobe, a sofa, armchairs, a dining-table, and chairs. Tables can be made of wood, glass, plastic, some metal, etc. When we consider the variety of tables and their types, we compare them with each other, create relations in mind. As seen from the example, relations of objects are needed for some classifying and systematizing purposes, for arranging and generalizing our knowledge.


    The problem here is that these relationships are not just "in mind"... and it is possible to imagine the basic features of a table, such as a horizontal surface.

    So the functions themselves are not extroverted or introverted... ie LIE: TeNi, ILI: NiTe etc cannot be right, since that would imply 32 types (one extroverted TeNi and one introverted TeNi).


    -----


    Jung (ILI / INTJ): NiTi FeSe


    Talanov:

    http://socionics.socionic.info/en/soc_06_6.html

    Psychophysiologicaly caused model of an information metabolism (model "T") as a basis of psychological intertype differences and intertype relationships

    In development of traditional for socionics of A.Augustinavichute model (models "A") the psychophysiological model "T", using not 8 but only C.Jung's 4 psychic functions where, however, everyone is characterized at once by two parameters: thresholds on exaltation and inhibition. In addition to partial thresholds of functions the common properties of force-weakness of the individual on exaltation and inhibition are specified identical to all functions. The common threshold on exaltation determines which of four functions will be program and which - mobilization. The common threshold on inhibition sets accentuation of TIM. Extraversion and extratimness are disjointed by model and appeared quasi orthogonal properties, the first (for the individual as a whole or his separate functions) corresponds to high thresholds on the exaltation, the second - to low thresholds on inhibition. Extra/intro-version of first two functions coincides with extra/intro-version of the individual, last two - are opposite to him; extra- or introtimness corresponds to standard socionic "color" of functions (black functions are extratimed, that is they have low thresholds of inhibition). The quantity of degrees of freedom of model increases (in comparison with model "A") from 4 up to 5 and becomes adequate to the standard five-factorial model of the person. The model "T" corresponds to experimental data, is simple in comprehension and application, binds in much clearer and integrated picture the numerous facts of socionics, differential psychology, psychophysiology and physiology higher nervous activity (HNA), easily explains psychological and socionic regularity, including difficultly deduced from model "A" (including properties of TIMs, intertype relationships and the content of a part of Reining signs ); it also predicts new regularities. Besides , the model eliminates series of collisions of modern differential psychophysiology and resolves the problems of physiology HNA which has arisen in researches of scientific school Pavlov-Teplov-Nebylitsyn.

    Key words: socionics, psychophysiology, psychophysics, physiology of HNA, psychological types, model of the personality, extraversion , a threshold of sensitivity, exaltation of the analyzer, inhibition of the analyzer.


    ILE: +I- +L+ -S- -E+


    -----


    An introvert's weak functions could be extroverted (in Model D), but I am not sure yet.






    Last edited by Petter; 08-29-2019 at 07:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    http://en.socionicasys.org/teorija/d...ichkov/aspekty

    1. The essence component is fundamental, essential properties of an object that single out it among other objects.

    2. The relation component is relations between essential properties, comparison of essential properties with each other.

    Let us illustrate these components by deriving information about such a usual object as a table. A table is often wooden, right-angled; it has legs supporting the table top. The basic feature of any table is its horizontal surface resting on something since we use tables to put something on (for instance, a meal), to write, to eat, to work or to do anything else. In this example we have considered essential properties of the table, i.e., fundamental features that basically define any table.

    People invented a large variety of tables: writing-tables, coffee tables, kitchen and other ones. There are tables with one, two, three, or four legs. Tables are parts of furniture sets: for example, a coffee table and to chairs; or a wardrobe, a sofa, armchairs, a dining-table, and chairs. Tables can be made of wood, glass, plastic, some metal, etc. When we consider the variety of tables and their types, we compare them with each other, create relations in mind. As seen from the example, relations of objects are needed for some classifying and systematizing purposes, for arranging and generalizing our knowledge.


    My view is that "create relations in mind" corresponds to Ne and Ni. Coffee tables etc obviously exist in the outer world, but the creation of a coffee table (i.e. the idea) is usually derived from the mind.

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    http://en.socionicasys.org/teorija/d...ichkov/aspekty

    "Information on relations between boundaries", or information about matter in space, or an object's position in space ... This is Se!


    "We remember that macroelements are divided according to their essence component and the relation component. Subjectively, we perceive space as emptiness between objects that is formed by their boundaries. Space would not exist in our perception without boundaries. The measurable space and extent of «empty» space and the notion of objects appear as soon as boundaries appear. Any bound is a force barrier, since we need to apply some force to set boundaries or to change them, hense «will sensing» is related to force. Thus, the essential feature of space is the presence of bounded extent."

    This is inaccurate since we cannot perceive just boundaries (of an object) ... there is always a relation between boundaries. For example, 'a football flying through the air' is about the boundaries of the football and the boundaries of the ground. If we are aware of a football flying through the air, then we are simultaneously aware of a certain distance between the football and the ground.


    "Indeed, let us remenver our sensations while wearing new shoes. For example, we could say: «They are too tight and uncomfortable». How have do you know if they are comfortable or not? You have sensed the co-relation between boundaries of your feet and the inner space of the shoes. This relation has brought to you the required information on comfort."

    This is Si and Se. We know if they hurt or not, i.e. what they feel like (Si), and sometimes we think about the boundaries of our feet and the inner space of our shoes (Se).
    Last edited by Petter; 09-03-2019 at 06:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    http://en.socionicasys.org/teorija/d...ichkov/aspekty

    "Information on relations between boundaries", or information about matter in space, or an object's position in space ... This is Se!


    "We remember that macroelements are divided according to their essence component and the relation component. Subjectively, we perceive space as emptiness between objects that is formed by their boundaries. Space would not exist in our perception without boundaries. The measurable space and extent of «empty» space and the notion of objects appear as soon as boundaries appear. Any bound is a force barrier, since we need to apply some force to set boundaries or to change them, hense «will sensing» is related to force. Thus, the essential feature of space is the presence of bounded extent."

    This is inaccurate since we cannot perceive just boundaries (of an object) ... there is always a relation between boundaries. For example, 'a football flying through the air' is about the boundaries of the football and the boundaries of the ground. If we are aware of a football flying through the air, then we are simultaneously aware of a certain distance between the football and the ground.
    Is a black triangle on a white piece of paper about relations between boundaries? No, I think Se has to include just boundaries (of an object).

    Isn't a triangle a pattern (Si)? No, we only perceive the boundaries of the object (i.e. shape).

    -----

    This is an alternative way of distinguishing between Si and Se. A pattern consists of two or more geons.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geon_(psychology)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patter...logy)#Theories
    Last edited by Petter; 09-03-2019 at 06:26 AM.

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    I believe the biggest problem in field of socionics is that many theorists seem to get lost in their own abstraction. At the start of their theorizing, everything is logical or at least arguable. However, as time goes on, maybe they found a logical fallacy or mistake in their previous theory or maybe they have found anecdotal evidence that contradicts their first thoughts. Whatever the case maybe, they tend to go off on these tangents that seem very incoherent or even illogical. How do they hide this subconsciously? By making abstractions stripped from rationality (Gulenko is guilty of this). I got this vibe when looking at your function layout diagrams.

    Now, I am not saying your theory/model is illogical, but I am saying at the very least it is incoherent in terms of how the ideas are being brought across. My suggestion is to make a new thread with better/longer explanations for your +/- IM descriptions, clearer text on dimensionality (sure you say ILI +Fe is 4D, but can you just layout from the start which functions are what dimension), separation of the different parts of your model by subtitles (your model is massive/to the very least it changes a lot of conventional thoughts about socionics; merely separating things into paragraphs isn't good enough to keep things organized within the reader's head), a case study going in detail on one type and how different functions and their dimension is expressed by this type (i.e explain how the IEI uses -Te in careers typical to IEI's and how does this function guide them the same way it would for a LIE), etc. I read this over and over for a clear picture and I do get bits a pieces, but not enough to make me say "I agree" or "I disagree."

    That being said, I commend you for attempting to apply neuroscience to socionics. We need more theories like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    I believe the biggest problem in field of socionics is that many theorists seem to get lost in their own abstraction. At the start of their theorizing, everything is logical or at least arguable. However, as time goes on, maybe they found a logical fallacy or mistake in their previous theory or maybe they have found anecdotal evidence that contradicts their first thoughts. Whatever the case maybe, they tend to go off on these tangents that seem very incoherent or even illogical. How do they hide this subconsciously? By making abstractions stripped from rationality (Gulenko is guilty of this).
    I agree with you.

    I got this vibe when looking at your function layout diagrams.

    Now, I am not saying your theory/model is illogical, but I am saying at the very least it is incoherent in terms of how the ideas are being brought across. My suggestion is to make a new thread with better/longer explanations for your +/- IM descriptions,
    My +/- are not related to +/- in Socionics (Process/Result or Positivist/Negativist).

    I think "in terms of scale — locally, specifically, in detail" is accurate, though. But this is not caused by the blocking of functions ... and I don't think Gulenko (Model G) and SSS are right either.

    "locally, specifically, in detail" is caused by high activity in the prefrontal cortex. '+' means abductive/inductive reasoning. '-' means not abductive/inductive reasoning (or fairly inactive right PFC). '*' means deductive reasoning, but it is not included in this 16 types model. However, there could be 32 types or two subtypes.

    clearer text on dimensionality (sure you say ILI +Fe is 4D, but can you just layout from the start which functions are what dimension)
    I am not sure there are 1D, 2D, 3D and 4D functions, but I know there are strong and weak functions.

    I am not saying that ILI has a strong and Mental Fe+ ... I am saying that ILI has a strong and Mental Si+ (Fe+). This could be similar to Accepting and Producing functions, but I am not sure yet.

    separation of the different parts of your model by subtitles (your model is massive/to the very least it changes a lot of conventional thoughts about socionics; merely separating things into paragraphs isn't good enough to keep things organized within the reader's head),
    I don't think my model is massive. There are 5 different versions ("mk1" ... "mk5") of my model. I am only interested in the latest version, mk5.

    a case study going in detail on one type and how different functions and their dimension is expressed by this type (i.e explain how the IEI uses -Te in careers typical to IEI's and how does this function guide them the same way it would for a LIE), etc.
    I will hopefully do this in the future.

    My view is that (Extroverted) Thinking does not exist. Jung, Myers-Briggs and socionists are wrong here (in different ways). A "Feeling" type thinks just as much.

    That being said, I commend you for attempting to apply neuroscience to socionics. We need more theories like that.
    thank you

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    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...c-of-Functions

    It would be wrong to consider accepting elements to be absolutely accepting, and productive elements - exclusively producing. "Undoubtedly, producing elements take into account the relevant aspects of reality. That is they do not only produce, but to some extent also reflect picture of reality. " Each element is a combination of both properties: in accepting element acceptance prevails while in producing element - production, creativity. What is then the difference between these elements?

    Products of the accepting aspects are based on modeling, construction based on the known elements. The functioning of these aspects is evaluated in terms of accuracy. This is reproduction based on already known designs, this is a constructor in which the details, the building blocks are particles of objective reality, perceived as a given. Creative work of the producing elements is production of something qualitatively new; invention with parts of improvisation; because an analogue does not exist what the end result will be is not always known. To some extent, this creative work is taken by the individual as very personal, as if it is a criteria of measure of his personality. A "hit" or negative information applied to this element is more unpleasant than if it is applied to accepting element. In case of accepting element such hit is perceived with surprise, with bewilderment. "I have been stacking these cubes well, how could anything negative have resulted?". In producing creative work, each cube is one's own personal creation, one's child, into which the person imparts a part of himself. Based on accepting elements the individual feels a sense of responsibility, while based on productive elements he is much less sure and does not agree to responsibility but will agree to carry out duties. Based on accepting elements we are inclined to talk about shortcomings; based on producing - about merits.


    -----


    1. Si+ (Fe+) is the same as Accepting Si+ and Producing Fe+.

    2. Si+ (Fe+) focuses on sensory control/orientation, and Fe+ (Si+) focuses on emotional control/orientation. But Si+ (Fe+) includes an emotional evaluation, and Fe+ (Si+) needs sensory information in order to make an emotional evaluation.

    An Fe+ (Si+) type is more interested in subjects (i.e. people) than objects, since objects don't have emotional "output" (but they have sensory "output").


    -----


    https://www.herrmann.com.au/what-is-...rain-thinking/

    I think Herrmann Brain Dominance Instrument is oversimplified, but they have also concluded that a person can be task-oriented (see DISC) without being logical/analytical.

    So the "opposite" of F is S, and the "opposite" of T is N (or more precisely; the "opposite" of deductive reasoning is abductive/inductive reasoning).
    Last edited by Petter; 09-06-2019 at 07:18 AM.

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    Si interprets the meaning of visual stimuli and establishes object recognition (the temporal lobe). This is not the same thing as seeing an object (the occipital lobe).

    -----

    I: "Si recognizes facial expressions, body language and tone of voice. Fe evaluates the emotional state of people, and deals with social behavior and manipulation."

    This is probably incorrect. I now think Fe recognizes facial expressions, body language and tone of voice. So Fe and Fi are actually sensory processes! The difference is that Fe and Fi deal with sensory information which refers to an emotional state.

    -----

    "Mirror neurons have been interpreted as the mechanism by which we simulate others in order to better understand them..." (Fi)

    "the idea that this function of the mirror neuron system is crucial for aesthetic experiences" (Fi)

    "Mirror neurons are proposed to be a basis for understanding the actions of others by internally imitating the actions using one's own motor control circuits."

    "The mirror neuron system (MNS), comprising premotor cortex, inferior parietal lobe, and motor and somatosensory cortex, is engaged when one performs a motor action or views another person perform the same action, thus providing a potential neural mechanism by which we understand other's action goals."

    Se is directly related to the premotor cortex and the parietal lobe.

    Se and Fi are blocked together because they are essentially doing the same thing.

    -----

    Fe is related to the cingulate cortex.

    Fi is related to the orbitofrontal cortex and the ventromedial prefrontal cortex. "encoding value" "cognitive evaluation of morality"
    Last edited by Petter; 09-25-2019 at 07:57 AM.

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    Si interprets the meaning of visual stimuli and establishes object/pattern recognition. It forms new memories and recall memories.

    Se perceives/simulates an interaction between a person and objects/people.

    Both functions cause emotions and are caused by emotions. Fe and Fi reflect upon those emotional responses. They combine perception (=sensation+cognition) and emotion.

    Fe focuses on facial expressions, body language and tone of voice.

    ------

    Fe and Fi are not emotions (SSS: "energy" i.e. inner emotional state), so Fe and Si are not blocked in the same way as in Model A.

    Why? Because Si doesn't need input from Fe, so Si (Fe) is not a Feeling type. Si and Fe complement each other, though.

    Also, internal dynamics of objects and external dynamics of fields don't make any sense here, since Fe processes the same information as Si.

    ------

    LII (Model A): TiNe FiSe... Ti (4D) corresponds to cognition and Se (1D) corresponds to sensation, which is problematic since perception means sensation combined with cognition: one is 4D and the other is 1D, so it doesn't work ... or Ti corresponds to logic (i.e. prefrontal cortex) and Se corresponds to perception (like Model D), but then LSI/ISTP is not a Ti dominant type. See attached image.

    brain LSI.jpg


    ------


    There is an alternative way of defining Se, Si, Fe and Fi.

    Se/Si: a subject observes objects

    Fe/Fi: a subject observes a subject who observes objects

    "V.S. Ramachandran has speculated that mirror neurons may provide the neurological basis of human self-awareness."
    Last edited by Petter; 10-01-2019 at 03:36 AM.

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    There could be a connection between the functions and the basic emotions.


    Se- maximize anger, minimize fear

    Se+ minimize not anger, maximize not fear


    Si+ maximize anticipation, minimize surprise

    Si- minimize not anticipation, maximize not surprise (tradition, custom...)


    Fi- maximize trust, minimize disgust

    Fi+ minimize not trust (i.e. distrust), maximize not disgust


    Fe+ maximize joy, minimize sadness

    Fe- minimize not joy, maximize not sadness



    IF this is accurate then I must change the model:

    ILI

    Introvert

    Si+ Fe- // Se+ Fi-

    Fi+ Se- // Fe+ Si-


    ... which is similar to Model D mk4.

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    "Anger, when viewed as a protective response or instinct to a perceived threat, is considered as positive. The negative expression of this state is known as aggression. Acting on this misplaced state is rage due to possible potential errors in perception and judgment."

    Anger is always caused by an obstacle (including a threat).

    Fear is always caused by an "inverse obstacle" ... i.e. he/she (or it) wants to remove you.


    *****


    Intelligence is directly related to logical reasoning, but it is only somewhat related to creativity/imagination (or Intuition). So '+' = abductive/inductive reasoning could be inaccurate.

    I will temporarily use these descriptions instead:

    '+' = "abstract, imaginative, absentminded, impractical, absorbed in ideas" ... "open to change, experimental, liberal, analytical, critical, freethinking, flexibility"

    '-' = "grounded, practical, prosaic, solution oriented, steady, conventional" ... "traditional, attached to familiar, conservative, respecting traditional ideas"


    16pf.png




    '+' = many connections between the frontal lobe and the other lobes (?)

    logical reasoning (including working memory) = similarities/differences between objects ... the prefrontal cortex (?)


    brain creativity networks.jpg
    Last edited by Petter; 10-06-2019 at 11:14 AM.

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    I haven't read this whole thread. I saw some of the posts that mention prefrontal cortex. Are you basing some of this on Dario Nardi's work?

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...of-Personality

    In mammalian brain anatomy, the prefrontal cortex (PFC) is the cerebral cortex which covers the front part of the frontal lobe. The PFC contains the Brodmann areas BA8, BA9, BA10, BA11, BA12, BA13, BA14, BA24, BA25, BA32, BA44, BA45, BA46, and BA47.[1]

    Many authors have indicated an integral link between a person's will to live, personality, and the functions of the prefrontal cortex.[2] This brain region has been implicated in planning complex cognitive behavior, personality expression, decision making, and moderating social behavior.[3] The basic activity of this brain region is considered to be orchestration of thoughts and actions in accordance with internal goals.[4]

    The most typical psychological term for functions carried out by the prefrontal cortex area is executive function. Executive function relates to abilities to differentiate among conflicting thoughts, determine good and bad, better and best, same and different, future consequences of current activities, working toward a defined goal, prediction of outcomes, expectation based on actions, and social "control" (the ability to suppress urges that, if not suppressed, could lead to socially unacceptable outcomes).

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I haven't read this whole thread. I saw some of the posts that mention prefrontal cortex. Are you basing some of this on Dario Nardi's work?

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...of-Personality
    Yes, I use Dario Nardi's work but I prefer other sources.

    https://brainmaster.com/software/pub...nearesteeg.htm

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...28393214002395

    etc

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    https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics...ciation-cortex

    Categories of Association Cortex

    The cytoarchitecture of association cortex is different for different areas and determines what kind of neural information can be processed by those cells. Generally, the association areas adjacent to primary motor and sensory areas are unimodal; that is, only one type of information is processed by those cells. These association areas elaborate on the information received at the specific primary motor and sensory areas to which they are adjacent.

    Further removed from the primary motor or sensory cortical areas, other types of association cortices are found, termed polymodal and supramodal. Polymodal is sometimes referred to as multimodal, and supramodal may be referred to as heteromodal in some texts.

    Polymodal association areas are found somewhat close to the unimodal areas near the primary reception cortex. Polymodal association cortex is linked to processing of two or more sensory modalities. For example, polymodal association cortex, processing both auditory and visual information, can be found in the temporal lobe and in the occipital lobe. The parahippocampal gyrus receives input from all areas of the cerebral cortex, processing several types of sensory information.

    The association areas add meaning and significance to the sensory or motor information received in the primary motor or sensory areas. The matching of present sensory information with past sensory information drawn from memory probably takes place in the polymodal association areas, which are linked to several sensory modalities. Motor association areas are sites where motor plans, programs, and commands are formulated with input from auditory and somatosensory processing, particularly touch, as well as other modalities.

    Certain sensory association areas blend and mingle sensory information from several association areas to establish a higher level of cortical sensory information. This type of processing results in a complex level of awareness that is above and beyond mere recognition of sensory data. This level of sensory awareness is known as perception, which is defined as the mental process of becoming aware of or recognizing an object or idea. The processes are primarily cognitive rather than affective or conative, although all three aspects are manifested.17 For example, if someone places a door key in your hand in the dark, you must recognize its shape and judge its size, weight, texture, and metallic surface to match this information with memories and concepts of keys. This is called stereognostic perception. Only when you can identify your perception of the key can you name the key and relate its function if asked. The everyday sensory recognition of objects relies on complex sensory integration of multiple sensations enhanced by memory and conceptual knowledge of objects with similar qualities. This complex activity of knowing is called gnosis. Other common kinds of perception are such skills as depth perception and visual-spatial perception. Intuition can be thought of as a type of perception.

    The highest level of processing is carried on in association areas best described as supramodal [Jungian Intuition?], meaning that these cortical areas are concerned with neural processing that is not directly linked to sensory or motor functions. This kind of association cortex and cortical function can be found primarily in the following areas:

    The prefrontal area, for higher executive function

    Perisylvian cortex, subserving language

    Limbic lobe, subserving emotion and motivation

    The prefrontal cortex and the perisylvian cortical area and function were previously outlined and are discussed in depth in Chapter 9. The limbic lobe, its structures, and probable association functions are examined next. A summary of categories of the association cortex is provided in Box 2-2.


    BOX 2-2

    Categories of the Association Cortex


    Unimodal

    Only one type of information is processed by the cells in these areas

    Areas elaborate on information received at adjacent primary motor and sensory areas

    Information can be related to either motor or sensory input


    Polymodal

    Found in close proximity to unimodal areas, near the primary reception cortex

    Linked to processing two or more kinds of sensory information (e.g., auditory and visual information)

    Matches present sensory information with past sensory information


    Supramodal

    Highest level of processing

    Areas concerned with neural processing not linked directly with sensory or motor functions

    Found primarily in prefrontal area, perisylvian cortex, and limbic lobe
    Last edited by Petter; 10-10-2019 at 06:26 AM.

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    Si interprets the meaning of visual stimuli and establishes object/pattern recognition. It forms new memories and recall memories.

    Se perceives/simulates an interaction between a person and objects/people.

    Fe = awareness that one specific pattern causes one specific emotional state (?)

    Fi = awareness that one specific interaction causes one specific emotional state (?)
    Last edited by Petter; 10-15-2019 at 09:29 AM.

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    1. ILI's Si+ and Se+ are strong functions, and Fe- and Fi- are weak functions.

    This is based on MBTI, Socionics (duality etc.), observations (physics, mathematics, chess etc.) and symmetry.

    2. Imagination/Intuition (or '+') is always dependent on Se, Si, Fe and Fi. So if '+' is strong, then all '+' functions are strong.

    ILI prefers Si with Intuition, i.e. Si+ is a strong function. Si without Intuition (Si-) must be a weak function.

    3. When ILI focuses on Si, he or she must compromise with Fe. Why? Because Fe embellishes the facts, so the functions obstruct each other. Fe- is a weak function and it should be blocked with Si+.

    4. ILI is sensitive to criticism from ESE and SEI, so Fe- should be a Mental function.

    5. LII's Fe+ is clearly a Mental function (see post 129 and post 133).

    6. Fi+ deals with potential behavior of people (positive and negative). This is a big part of the ILI personality. It includes strategic thinking: Si+ imagines a scene with people and objects, and Se- simulates an interaction in that scene. Fi+ wants to know how people will react. EDIT: Fi- processes the immediate reaction.

    7. ILI's Se+ is a Vital function.

    Si+ Fe- Se+ Fi- // ... This is not possible. If both Fe- and Fi- are Mental functions, then we cannot explain duality. Also, Si+ and Se+ don't complement each other.

    8. Si+ and Fe- are more conscious than Fi+ and Se-.



    ILI

    Introvert

    Si+ Fe- Fi+ Se- // Se+ Fi- Fe+ Si-

    EDIT: #3 is probably incorrect, so this doesn't work.
    Last edited by Petter; 10-19-2019 at 08:41 AM.

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    This is also possible:

    ILI

    Introvert

    Si+ Se- Fi+ Fe- // Se+ Si- Fe+ Fi-



    OR:

    Si+ Se- Fi+ Fe-
    Fe+ Fi- Se+ Si-

    Si+ is assisted by Fe+ (like mk5). Why? Because Fe needs input from Si, but Si+ and Fe- do not process the same kind of information.

    An ILI usually focuses on objects (in his/her work), but there is always some awareness of himself/herself as a subject or other people who might be affected by his/her work. That awareness is Fe+ (and Fi-). This probably means that there are two rings or tracks: Si+, Se-, Fe+, Fi- and Fi+, Fe-, Se+, Si-.

    I think Fe+ is more important in ILI than LII, but as a Vital function it is mostly an individual/private process. Therefore it is much more obvious in LII.

    If there are two tracks, then it is easy to understand why ILI and SEE are duals. Fe+/Fi- is the audience, so to speak.
    Last edited by Petter; 10-16-2019 at 11:00 AM.

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    "The super-ego can be thought of as a type of conscience that punishes misbehavior with feelings of guilt. For example, for having extra-marital affairs. Taken in this sense, the super-ego is the precedent for the conceptualization of the inner critic..."

    Fi+ Fe-
    Se+ Si-

    Is this ILI's super-ego?

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    "In psychoanalysis, preconscious is the loci preceding consciousness. Thoughts are preconscious when they are unconscious at a particular moment, but are not repressed. Therefore, preconscious thoughts are available for recall and easily 'capable of becoming conscious'—a phrase attributed by Sigmund Freud to Joseph Breuer."

    Yermak:

    "Some socionists suppose that the functioning of the superblock of personal life is unconscious. It is incorrect. Founders of psychoanalysis differently considered the concept of the "unconscious". The term "preconscious" is appropriate to the content of processes, which take place in the superblock of personal life. In normal conditions, the preconscious processes function out of consciousness, automatically. But these processes can become conscious, if there is a need. In turn, functioning of the superblock of social life is obviously conscious."

    Another way of looking at it is that one function is active (i.e. temporarily conscious) and all other functions are inactive (i.e. temporarily unconscious). So there are no Vital functions and information is never processed automatically.

    But then why do ILI and IEI look so different? Because the functions are still blocked: Si+ (Fe+) vs. Fe+ (Si+). Fe+ is an auxiliary function which motivates the ILI to work. IEI, on the other hand, focuses on the motivation itself, so his/her auxiliary function provides the facts.

    The question is whether ILI can process Fe+ (Si+) or not.

    ------

    ILI's Fe+ (Si+) is either rare or non-existent, otherwise we would not be able to differentiate between ILI and IEI.

    Fi+ Fe-
    Se+ Si-

    ... or: Fi+ (Se+) Fe- (Si-)

    This is what we see when ILI focuses on people/motivation. He cannot (?) process Fe+ (Si+) and Fi- (Se-), so he must process Fe- (Si-) and Fi+ (Se+).

    ------

    'ENTJs (or LIEs) are often "larger than life" in describing their projects or proposals. This ability may be expressed as salesmanship, story-telling facility or stand-up comedy. In combination with the natural propensity for filibuster, our hero can make it very difficult for the customer to decline.'

    This is a good example of LIE's Fe+/Fi-.
    Last edited by Petter; 10-19-2019 at 10:41 AM.

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    This is the difference between Si-/Se+ and Si+/Se-.

    Si- recognizes an object (or pattern).

    Se+ tries to interact with an object (i.e. a detailed interaction ... surgery etc.) OR interacts with an object and wants to interact with it in a different way (i.e. Ne). This is about known objects, so the interaction is usually processed automatically.

    Si+ tries to recognize an object OR recognizes an object and wants to know even more about the object.

    Se- interacts with an object. The object is barely identified, so he/she just wants to interact with it in the usual way.


    -----


    Si- a general object/pattern ... he carefully interacts with an object (Se+), so he can memorize a pattern

    Se+ a specific (or detailed) structure/interaction ... he knows the facts (Si-), so he knows exactly how to interact with the object ... he associates the structure with another structure (Ne)

    Si+ a specific (or detailed) object/pattern ... he tries to find a pattern ... he imagines a scenario (Ni) and simulates a dynamic interaction (Se-)

    Se- a general structure/interaction ... he builds something and the structure is given/obvious ... it's a dynamic interaction (policeman etc.), so he imagines the next move (Si+)
    Last edited by Petter; 10-24-2019 at 07:54 AM.

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    "In addition, users of type often forget that inferior or unconscious functions are inferior to consciousness not in inferior in strength in the psyche (Jung, 1971 p.450)."

    If this is accurate then Mental/Vital and Strong/Weak contradict each other.

    -----

    My current view is that ILI prefers (or prioritizes) Si+ over Fe+, but they are equally conscious.

    ILI, introvert:

    Si+ (Fe+) Se- (Fi-) // Fi+ (Se+) Fe- (Si-)

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