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Thread: Model D

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    Looking back on this thread after a couple of years (to check your progress), it seems you have ditched those socionics' cognitive functions entirely (or redefined them significantly so they no longer mean the same thing). My first impression is that your Model D now looks like the Big Five equivalent version for information metabolism (which seems to be the only concept related to socionics right now), meaning it is probably closer to the findings based on empirical evidence, so anything that had no empirical evidence (i.e., EEG brain scans) seems to have been ditched. Now the problem is that it's hard to interpret this stuff on my own. Which dichotomies would an introverted (and also an extroverted) IEI generally lean towards? Is there some external manual or guide to interpret this stuff to understand the nuances of our "personality type" better?

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    @Still Alive please, don’t type the creator of this thread IEI, I beg you!!
    In 2003, BunnyRaptor transcended Nikola Tesla by being the inspiration for Pokemon Colosseum and Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic, the schematic building projects for the Star Forge and Realgam Tower, and in 2019, BunnyRaptor transcended Lebron James, heavenly shorelines of wizards and melee to embody chromatic resonance and flashes of dawning canopies of supper and canvas highlights blessing liberty and promotional wishes flowering in grace and extravagance to explore whacky worlds and dominoes of crusades to fruit punch and swordsmanship with venom and extrication to dig musical constructs with destruction and leviathan RevanLugia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robin Gosens View Post
    @Still Alive please, don’t type the creator of this thread IEI, I beg you!!
    Alright, alright.
    Quote Originally Posted by idiot View Post
    I have been thinking about what Alive was saying about everyone on here being IEI, and I conclude that he is right, or at least he is on to something.

    If Jung based his theories on the people he met in his life, even if he met more people than the average person, that means that he based his theories on a certain type of person. The type of person who might go to him for therapy or talks, or who might believe the esoteric ideas he was spouting at the time. Thus it's possible that he did not categorize all humans into types, but just made subtypes for a specific type of person. This overarching type of person is the same type that is heavily interested in theories of this kind, and whom Alive says is an IEI.

    Therefore, Alive is right. We are all IEIs with subtypes. With that, I'm off this forum
    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ung-s-subjects

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    Whether we are all subtypes of IEIs on this thread or not, I consider myself the least alike of all IEIs I have met (both on the Internet and real-world) because of my very creative/competent usage of NeTi (as well as NiTe due to my profession of software engineer and holding management positions), so at this stage I should probably just call myself an ILE. Most of my relationship issues are due to bad awareness of my tone/language, the inability to actively maintain relationships, and the reckless usage of Ne provocations, which gives mental breakdown to people around me and makes them witch hunt me (especially ESIs, whom I consider my super-ego personality). I also naturally attract SEIs the most, as they help me "calm down," and there is a lot of mutual relaxation going on, like they take care of my hair and do different kinds of grooming. SLEs are just not for me because they "freak out" when they see me shifting my worldviews and agendas back and forth.

    Anyway it took me just a few years to come to the conclusion that most of the ideas of Socionics fall apart especially the ones with hard logical categories such as information processing blocks (1D, 2D, etc.) when faced with empirical evidence and scrutiny so it is rightfully considered a pseudoscience (albeit with some utility) by experts.
    Last edited by seriousguy; 10-17-2024 at 04:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousguy View Post
    Now the problem is that it's hard to interpret this stuff on my own. Which dichotomies would an introverted (and also an extroverted) IEI generally lean towards?
    1. people-oriented

    2. the internal world

    3. inexpressive

    4. the dorsal stream vs. the ventral stream ? ... mathematics/science vs. art ... most IEIs are probably ventral types

    5. the left hemisphere vs. the right hemisphere ?

    6. cooperative

    7. logical reasoning

    8. imagination/prefrontal synthesis

    9. current strategy vs. alternative strategies ?

    10. (long-term) goals

    11. problem-solving vs. decision-making ?

    12. structure vs. cause and effect ?



    Is there some external manual or guide to interpret this stuff to understand the nuances of our "personality type" better?
    No

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    11. problem-solving >> decision-making (EII) vs. problem-solving > decision-making (IEI)

    ------

    decision-making: LN, SN and CON

    problem-solving: DMN (and FPN)
    Last edited by Petter; 11-10-2024 at 06:07 AM.

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    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16248335/

    The visual system processes object properties (such as shape and color) and spatial properties (such as location and spatial relations) in distinct systems, and neuropsychological evidence reveals that mental imagery respects this distinction. The findings reported in this article demonstrate that verbalizers typically perform at an intermediate level on imagery tasks, whereas visualizers can be divided into two groups. Specifically, scores on spatial and object imagery tasks, along with a visualizer-verbalizer cognitive style questionnaire, identified a group of visualizers who scored poorly on spatial imagery tasks but excelled on object imagery tasks. In contrast, a second group of visualizers scored high on spatial imagery tasks but poorly on object imagery tasks. The results also indicate that object visualizers encode and process images holistically, as a single perceptual unit, whereas spatial visualizers generate and process images analytically, part by part. In addition, we found that scientists and engineers excel in spatial imagery and prefer spatial strategies, whereas visual artists excel in object imagery and prefer object-based strategies.

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    mathematics, engineering and theoretical physics: the dorsal stream >> the ventral stream

    experimental physics: the dorsal stream > the ventral stream

    art: the dorsal stream << the ventral stream

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    1. people-oriented

    2. the internal world

    3. inexpressive

    4. the dorsal stream vs. the ventral stream ? ... mathematics/science vs. art ... most IEIs are probably ventral types

    5. the left hemisphere vs. the right hemisphere ?

    6. cooperative

    7. logical reasoning

    8. imagination/prefrontal synthesis

    9. current strategy vs. alternative strategies ?

    10. (long-term) goals

    11. problem-solving vs. decision-making ?

    12. structure vs. cause and effect ?
    Unfortunately, it doesn't work. Have you completely abandoned typology in favor of trait theory?

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    practical vs. theoretical/fact-based ... Se vs. Ni/Si

    1. the external world vs. the internal world

    2. egocentric spatial processing vs. allocentric spatial processing

    ------

    https://i.imgur.com/3gyMMXS.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousguy View Post
    Unfortunately, it doesn't work.
    Why do you think it doesn't work?




    Have you completely abandoned typology in favor of trait theory?
    No, I have not abandoned typology, but I think at least 3 options are needed for each "dichotomy" or personality factor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    Why do you think it doesn't work?





    No, I have not abandoned typology, but I think at least 3 options are needed for each "dichotomy" or personality factor.
    In my view, your model version mk4 is the last one that could be fitted into the framework of Socionics despite all those alterations. What made you redefine those information element blocks entirely?

    As far as I can tell, originally your goal was to improve and refine the understanding of cognitive functions and explain the subtypes. This shift from Socionics' original Model A (and Model G) to this trait-based "dichotomies" approach essentially moves the goalpost as it actually complicates the understanding of type categories and cognitive functions meaning you are no longer creating a new model of Socionics (which you called "Model D") from existing knowledge. Socionics' models (A and G) were built around specific cognitive functions like Ni (Introverted Intuition) and Te (Extraverted Thinking), etc. These functions represent distinct ways of processing information and interacting with the world. By reducing the model to trait-based dichotomies, the original nuanced definitions of these functions are either made overly complicated or lost entirely.

    For instance, in Socionics, an IEI (Ni or Fe depending on subtype) type has a specific cognitive profile. In your new dichotomy-based system, we can no longer be sure if an "IEI" still processes information through Ni-Fe or if the label merely refers to a collection of unrelated traits. IEI might be represented by a blend of traits without clear reference to the underlying cognitive functions meaning that the types in your system may no longer correspond to the same psychological profiles as those in the Socionics model. Did you get the gist of what I am trying to say?

    Considering 3 options for each dichotomy: people-oriented vs task-oriented, the dorsal stream vs. the ventral stream, detail-oriented vs. big picture.... I think Yuval Noah Harari leans towards dorsal stream, people-oriented (social sciences, etc.) and detail-oriented, Jordan Peterson leans towards the ventral stream, people-oriented (psychology, etc.) and big picture, Noam Chomsky and Ghamidi (Muslim scholar) leans so much towards detail-oriented... most of these types would be considered subtypes of IEI in Socionics but those dichotomies may not translate to categorical types meaning they can no longer be considered type "IEI" in your system and should be treated as individual types. For instance, I think I might be detail-oriented (almost to the point of neuroticism) and decision-making (as opposed to problem-solving which I think most IEIs would be as far as I can tell anyway).
    Last edited by seriousguy; 10-27-2024 at 08:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousguy View Post
    In my view, your model version mk4 is the last one that could be fitted into the framework of Socionics despite all those alterations. What made you redefine those information element blocks entirely?
    I did not redefine the information elements in mk5 but I got rid of Thinking. My view was that Thinking/logical reasoning (factor B in 16PF) does not add/change information so it should not be included in the model.



    As far as I can tell, originally your goal was to improve and refine the understanding of cognitive functions and explain the subtypes. This shift from Socionics' original Model A (and Model G) to this trait-based "dichotomies" approach essentially moves the goalpost as it actually complicates the understanding of type categories and cognitive functions meaning you are no longer creating a new model of Socionics (which you called "Model D") from existing knowledge. Socionics' models (A and G) were built around specific cognitive functions like Ni (Introverted Intuition) and Te (Extraverted Thinking), etc. These functions represent distinct ways of processing information and interacting with the world. By reducing the model to trait-based dichotomies, the original nuanced definitions of these functions are either made overly complicated or lost entirely.
    The functions are good/distinct enough for a 16 types model. The problem is that two TiNe types, for example, can be very different (Michael Penn vs. Terence Tao ... 'J' vs. 'P') and they cannot be subtypes.

    https://www.michael-penn.net/

    https://www.math.ucla.edu/~tao/



    For instance, in Socionics, an IEI (Ni or Fe depending on subtype) type has a specific cognitive profile. In your new dichotomy-based system, we can no longer be sure if an "IEI" still processes information through Ni-Fe or if the label merely refers to a collection of unrelated traits. IEI might be represented by a blend of traits without clear reference to the underlying cognitive functions meaning that the types in your system may no longer correspond to the same psychological profiles as those in the Socionics model. Did you get the gist of what I am trying to say?
    That is correct. My psychological profiles do not match the types in Socionics.

    IEI/model A is an approximation and it is based on the assumption that (for example) a strong Fe implies a weak Ti. I think that is incorrect.

    A conscious/active Fe (DMN + LN + SN) implies a semi-conscious/inactive Ti (FPN). But a strong Ti corresponds to an efficient dlPFC (more grey matter). That is why some IEIs (NiFe) are programmers even though it is a profession that relies on logic (Ti).

    https://i.imgur.com/3w0WrDU.jpg
    Last edited by Petter; 11-04-2024 at 02:35 PM.

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    https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/skxwc

    logical reasoning <--> PFS / creativity ... both activate dlPFC

    see figure 9

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    1. people-oriented vs. task-oriented (DMN vs. CEN)


    2. the external world vs. the internal world (DAN/VAN vs. the precuneus) ... now vs. future and past


    3. expressive/impulsive vs. inexpressive (dopamine sensitivity) ... SEE vs ESI ... 16PF: Liveliness, F


    4. spatial relationships vs. patterns (the dorsal stream vs. the ventral stream) ... "how"/"where" vs. "what"


    5. detail-oriented vs. big picture (the left hemisphere vs. the right hemisphere ) ... analysis vs. synthesis ... fine motor skills vs. gross motor skills


    6. defend vs. care ... or competitive vs. cooperative (vasopressin vs. oxytocin)


    7. logical reasoning: abstract vs. concrete (anterior PFC vs posterior PFC)


    8. imagination/prefrontal synthesis vs. memory (lateral PFC: efficient vs. inefficient) ... DMN: episodic simulation vs. episodic memory


    9. current strategy vs. alternative strategies (medial frontopolar cortex vs. lateral frontopolar cortex)


    10. (long-term) goals vs. immediate sensory needs (limbic SN vs. sensory SN)


    11. problem-solving vs. decision-making (FPN vs. FPN + CON/SN/LN ..... DMN vs. DMN + CON/SN/LN) ... open-minded vs. decisive


    12. structure vs. cause and effect (the parietal lobe vs. the temporal lobe) ... mathematics vs. physics


    13. practical vs. theoretical (egocentric spatial processing vs. allocentric spatial processing)

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    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...10945214002913

    Semantic cognition is underpinned by regions involved in representing conceptual knowledge and executive control areas that provide regulation of this information according to current task requirements. Using distortion-corrected fMRI, we investigated the contributions of these two systems to abstract and concrete word comprehension. We contrasted semantic decisions made either with coherent contextual support, which encouraged retrieval of a rich conceptual representation, or with irrelevant contextual information, which instead maximised demands on control processes. Inferior prefrontal cortex was activated more when decisions were made in the presence of irrelevant context, suggesting that this region is crucial for the semantic control functions required to select appropriate aspects of meaning in the face of competing information. It also exhibited greater activation for abstract words, which reflects the fact that abstract words tend to have variable, context-dependent meanings that place higher demands on control processes. In contrast, anterior temporal regions (ATL) were most active when decisions were made with the benefit of a coherent context, suggesting a representational role. There was a graded shift in concreteness effects in this region, with dorsolateral areas particularly active for abstract words and ventromedial areas preferentially activated by concrete words. This supports the idea that concrete concepts are closely associated with visual experience and abstract concepts with auditory-verbal information; and that sub-regions of the ATL display graded specialisation for these two types of knowledge. Between these two extremes, we identified significant activations for both word types in ventrolateral ATL. This area is known to be involved in representing knowledge for concrete concepts; here we established that it is also activated by abstract concepts. These results converge with data from rTMS and neuropsychological investigations in demonstrating that representational content and task demands influence recruitment of different areas in the semantic network.
    abstract vs. concrete

    1. anterior PFC vs. posterior PFC

    2. dorsolateral ATL vs. ventromedial ATL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    I did not redefine the information elements in mk5 but I got rid of Thinking. My view was that Thinking/logical reasoning (factor B in 16PF) does not add/change information so it should not be included in the model.
    The way I understand it, the distinction between thinking and feeling in Jungian school is that the former is analysis of sentences (verbal or written) and finding consistency (i.e., structural similarity) to establish reliable rules or order to navigate the world, while the latter is attention to minute details about people, detecting shifts in tone, language, and emotional cues to mediate conflicts or build relationships. The aforementioned thinking and feeling definitions are obviously biased towards people with common sense or practical understanding (meaning the ones with relatively low intuition for the lack of a better word).

    For intuition-dominant types, thinking is not that much about finding hard categories, logical correctness, and structures, but creating new rules or systems based on new possibilities or imagination, and often disregarding and mocking the rigid rules, and the feeling in intuitive types is not much about noticing tangible details about people but more like noticing the virtues and vices in people based on new possibilities or imagination (I have seen ILIs talking about showing compassion and kindness, and they complain when they see that some bad people or assholes are abusing or exploiting them).

    I agree that the word "thinking" for cognitive function is misleading, as "feeling" thoughts also come from the head; it's just that they relate to people and expressions of approval/disapproval, etc., so it is also in the domain of "thinking." I think Socionics use of logic/ethics is more intuitive but still insufficient because one can create an ethical / social framework (essentially people-oriented approach... social sciences, psychology, etc.) while still demonstrating the willingness to change the system / rules (dialectical materialism, etc.). meaning sophistication in logic as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    The functions are good/distinct enough for a 16 types model. The problem is that two TiNe types, for example, can be very different (Michael Penn vs. Terence Tao ... 'J' vs. 'P') and they cannot be subtypes.

    https://www.michael-penn.net/
    https://www.math.ucla.edu/~tao/
    I don't know them. Are you saying even the dominant thinking / logic types can sometimes show stronger / sophisticated processing of people-oriented domains?

    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    That is correct. My psychological profiles do not match the types in Socionics.


    IEI/model A is an approximation and it is based on the assumption that (for example) a strong Fe implies a weak Ti. I think that is incorrect.


    A conscious/active Fe (DMN + LN + SN) implies a semi-conscious/inactive Ti (FPN). But a strong Ti corresponds to an efficient dlPFC (more grey matter). That is why some IEIs (NiFe) are programmers even though it is a profession that relies on logic (Ti).


    https://i.imgur.com/3w0WrDU.jpg
    Firstly, I don't think that relatively high intelligence translates to higher sophistication in processing of all kinds of information; someone like Nikola Tesla (an ILI) will never show sophistication in processing the information pertaining to the details / facial movements of people, and patience to physically connect / conflict with people like an SEE would be simply because he was such a mystic (Ni), which is in contrast to any kind of physical connection with the world (Se).

    I don't think programming is all about Ti, but the quality and correctness of code (i.e, following the idioms in programming languages and SOPs) is indeed Ti. For the most part, programming / software development is about Te (mostly TeNi but quality assurance and unit testing requires TeSi as well), meaning creating the imaginary / idealized product in the quickest way possible to meet the demands (with attention to the cons and pros of different technologies) and then optimizing the system (i.e., increasing efficiency or reducing the workload) or automating the work (i.e., scripting) so they don't have to work harder and are still at an advantage over others

    I think some IEIs may have a very strong / sophisticated TeNi

    By the way, in your view, what is the type of Carl Jung? Subtype of IEI? Subtype of ILE? Subtype of LSI?
    Last edited by seriousguy; 11-05-2024 at 08:13 PM.

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    Here's a good demonstration of SLI's "caring" physician SiTe nature:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QFQG58wvjc

    Si- creates the comfort in the environment by doing chores and routine work for others (Te+) as opposed to making themselves feel comfortable in an environment by minimizing negative emotional facial expressions in others (Fe-). Every SLI I have met in a professional setting (i.e., office) has been very caring like that, so they can be "dual" for an IEI as long as they don't use Te+ in a patronizing way or expect sophistication in SiTe from an IEI

    I have an obvious conscious Si- (Te+) and not Si+ (Fe-): I try to create comfort outside through doing chores (but get failed miserably lol) or by over spending money (weak Te+) on stuff like fans, ventilation, etc. and adjusting the windows / computer table / air conditioners just so I can focus on my work and not get distracted by personal discomfort (i.e., sweating) and don't waste time trying to figure out where I "left" my belongings

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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousguy View Post
    The way I understand it, the distinction between thinking and feeling in Jungian school is that the former is analysis of sentences (verbal or written) and finding consistency (i.e., structural similarity) to establish reliable rules or order to navigate the world, while the latter is attention to minute details about people, detecting shifts in tone, language, and emotional cues to mediate conflicts or build relationships. The aforementioned thinking and feeling definitions are obviously biased towards people with common sense or practical understanding (meaning the ones with relatively low intuition for the lack of a better word).

    For intuition-dominant types, thinking is not that much about finding hard categories, logical correctness, and structures, but creating new rules or systems based on new possibilities or imagination, and often disregarding and mocking the rigid rules, and the feeling in intuitive types is not much about noticing tangible details about people but more like noticing the virtues and vices in people based on new possibilities or imagination (I have seen ILIs talking about showing compassion and kindness, and they complain when they see that some bad people or assholes are abusing or exploiting them).

    I agree that the word "thinking" for cognitive function is misleading, as "feeling" thoughts also come from the head; it's just that they relate to people and expressions of approval/disapproval, etc., so it is also in the domain of "thinking." I think Socionics use of logic/ethics is more intuitive but still insufficient because one can create an ethical / social framework (essentially people-oriented approach... social sciences, psychology, etc.) while still demonstrating the willingness to change the system / rules (dialectical materialism, etc.). meaning sophistication in logic as well.
    Disagreement on the definitions of the functions/IM elements is a fundamental problem in typology, and there are several "schools" in socionics as you probably know.

    Aušra Augustinavičiūtė

    Ti:

    We shall call 'logical' those feelings that arise in the process of comparing one object to another on the basis of any objective parameter — for example, a feeling of distance, weight, volume, worth, strength, quality, etc. These are feelings of objective evaluation that in certain situations help activate or passivate the person experiencing them. Such an individual perceives information from without as a sense of objects' proper or improper correlation/proportion, a sense of balance or imbalance between them, or an awareness or unawareness of the advantages of one object over another. This also includes all feelings that results from knowing or not knowing objects and phenomena — curiosity, respect, fear, and a sense of the logicalness or illogicalness of things, as well as a sense of one's own power or powerlessness before different objects.

    This is a good definition. It corresponds to FPN.


    Se:

    Perceives information about what might be called objects' "kinetic energy" — for example, information about how organized/mobilized a person is, his physical energy and power, and his ability to make use of his willpower or position and exercise his will in opposition to others'. This perception implies the ability to tell what reserves of "kinetic energy" people have and how useful they can be in getting things done. It defines the individual's ability or inability to exercise his willpower and energy in opposition to the will and energy of other people.

    This is not a good definition.

    ------

    My definitions are directly linked to specific brain regions so I avoid any confusion.




    I don't know them. Are you saying even the dominant thinking / logic types can sometimes show stronger / sophisticated processing of people-oriented domains?
    There is a difference between preference and strength. I am saying that some LIIs have a strong Fe or Fi (or both). Sigourney Weaver, for example, is probably an LII (TiNe) and she clearly has a sophisticated grasp of people-oriented domains.

    Roger R. Pearman: In addition, users of type often forget that inferior or unconscious functions are inferior to consciousness, not inferior in strength in the psyche (Jung, 1971 p.450).




    By the way, in your view, what is the type of Carl Jung? Subtype of IEI? Subtype of ILE? Subtype of LSI?
    My guess is IEI or ILI.

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    1. preference ---> knowledge

    2. strength = mental capacity

    ------

    Both 1 and 2 lead to sophisticated behavior.

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    Tina Fey (TiNe) is an even better example than Sigourney Weaver. One could argue that both of them go against their natural preference and they have learned sophisticated social behavior.

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    3. subtypes


    A.

    Jung ... T: 4, N: 3, S: 2, F: 1 (fixed)

    Socionics ... T: 4, N: 3, F: 2, S: 1 (fixed)

    ------

    T: 2.5 ... and F: 2.5 ... This would be a new type.

    T: 3.5 ... and F: 1.5 ... This could be a subtype, but it would not explain Tina Fey's sophisticated social behavior.



    B. It is possible to add new dichotomies, but then one has to explain why they are less important than T-F, N-S and E-I.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    Se:

    Perceives information about what might be called objects' "kinetic energy" — for example, information about how organized/mobilized a person is, his physical energy and power, and his ability to make use of his willpower or position and exercise his will in opposition to others'. This perception implies the ability to tell what reserves of "kinetic energy" people have and how useful they can be in getting things done. It defines the individual's ability or inability to exercise his willpower and energy in opposition to the will and energy of other people.

    This is not a good definition.
    That is biased too much towards SeTi; Se- (Ti+) is about perceiving the actual / tangible power of people by noticing their "kinetic energy," i.e., how actively each part of their body (human anatomy) moves, how much time and energy they are putting in affecting the world in a material sense (i.e., earning money, asserting their will, fighting for autonomy), etc., as opposed to psychological power (i.e., probing, social pressure, politics and persuasion, persecuting, presenting a "tough" image) and influence of their opinions on people which are related to SeFi.

    SLEs are extremely sophisticated in handling any form of physical threats; they understand there is no actual power in the other person who is giving threats of violence (i.e., verbal threats of violence lack true power), so they don't react or worry about it; if they know they lack power in handling certain situations, they will let you know and advise you to move on instead of engaging. In my experience, they tend to be the least "aggressive" types in the typical sense simply because their methods of gaining the material benefits are very subtle and sneaky that others may not realize what's happening; they are quite common in the "profession" of pickpocketing and sneak thievery

    Dave Salmoni is a very good example of SeTi:

    https://youtu.be/2nyCpVDbhGY?si=E4V3xnWx-qNx0bG-&t=276

    Not only is he very confident in handling wild animals (Se-)... (look at his body language and subtle hand gestures), but he is also explaining the anatomy of them (Ti+). The host (Jimmy Kimmel) and the other guest are weaker in SeTi (they are probably ILEs), so there were exaggerations of physical threats

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    1. preference ---> knowledge

    2. strength = mental capacity

    ------

    Both 1 and 2 lead to sophisticated behavior.
    Knowledge / experience on certain kind of information does not necessarily translate to sophistication or mental capacity / patience / working memory to process that information in new situations. The whole point of dimensionality is to differentiate the stronger and weaker functions based on information processing sophistication in unfamiliar situations; good judgments can only be made when there is a large pool of information / memory about it. I can't follow through the instructions because I have a poor factual memory (Te+) and will always make mistakes in unfamiliar situations because I can't remember anything

    By the way, do you still hold the view that ILI's Ti+ (Se-) is also the weakest/PoLR function (just like Fe-) in the same way as IEE? Do you think ILI's Ti+ is still somewhat better than IEE's Ti+? Do you think IEI's Fi- is still somewhat better than ILE's Fi-? Do you think IEI's Te- can be very strong in certain subtypes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousguy View Post
    Here's a good demonstration of SLI's "caring" physician SiTe nature:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QFQG58wvjc
    Too high Se, Beta ST or LSE.

    Dave Salmoni is a very good example of SeTi:

    https://youtu.be/2nyCpVDbhGY?si=E4V3xnWx-qNx0bG-&t=276
    Correct. Honestly, he looks like a piece of shit. I share such sentiments here quite often, an intense feeling of incompatibility. Definitely more than when seeing random people irl... I guess I have famousness as an unvalued function.

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    If strong/weak in model A refers to knowledge rather than actual strength, then I think it is correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qaz00 View Post
    Too high Se, Beta ST or LSE.
    SLIs also have high Se though. He does not talk like Beta ST at all. Dave Salmoni is Beta ST.

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    https://wikisocion.github.io/content..._decisive.html

    Decisive: "Natural state is readiness."

    Se: here and now ... the physical reality

    Ni: the future

    ------

    Si: the past

    Ne: an alternative reality

    ------

    Is 'ready' better than 'decisive'?

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    11. problem-solving >> decision-making (EII) vs. problem-solving > decision-making (IEI)
    IEI is not a decisive type.

    IEI ≠ I-N-F-J (MBTI)

    IEI ≠ INFJ

    INFJ ... J => Te or Fe ... Te is related to decision-making.

    ------

    Te (external dynamics of objects) is efficiency of an action, technical processes, the accomplishment of work, the efficient and prudent use of resources, factual accuracy, and the acquisition of relevant and useful information. Te understands the difference between effective and ineffective behavior when performing a procedure or accomplishing a task, and aspires to increase the frequency of productive outcomes within a system.

    Fe (internal dynamics of objects) is responsible for the perception of an emotional state in an individual and the bodily and linguistic expression of emotions. Fe is able to influence others' emotional condition and to communicate its own, "infecting" others. Fe is used especially in generating and recognizing excitement and enthusiasm.

    ------

    https://www.myersbriggs.org/unique-f...ics-processes/

    Te: Seeks logic and consistency in the outside world. Concern for external laws and rules. Logical, analytical decision makers who organize the environment to achieve goals.

    Equations on a blackboard are definitely in the outside world. This is an extremely vague definition of Te.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousguy View Post
    etc., as opposed to psychological power (i.e., probing, social pressure, politics and persuasion, persecuting, presenting a "tough" image) and influence of their opinions on people which are related to SeFi
    Some socionists define Se+ like that. I don't see how social pressure is related to Se+. It should be Fe instead.



    Knowledge / experience on certain kind of information does not necessarily translate to sophistication or mental capacity / patience / working memory to process that information in new situations. The whole point of dimensionality is to differentiate the stronger and weaker functions based on information processing sophistication in unfamiliar situations; good judgments can only be made when there is a large pool of information / memory about it.
    "a large pool of information / memory about it"

    That is knowledge/experience, isn't it?



    By the way, do you still hold the view that ILI's Ti+ (Se-) is also the weakest/PoLR function (just like Fe-) in the same way as IEE? Do you think ILI's Ti+ is still somewhat better than IEE's Ti+? Do you think IEI's Fi- is still somewhat better than ILE's Fi-? Do you think IEI's Te- can be very strong in certain subtypes?
    I am not sure I agree with you (or socionists) on the definition of strong/weak.

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    preference ---> motivation ---> attention ---> knowledge

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    Yermak:

    Can the vital character of information processing be called non-conscious? I don’t think so. We are conscious of our vital track. But awareness comes after the reaction, even though just a fraction of a second later. Such automatic reactions are called by some psychologists «preconscious» — something in-between consciousness and subconsciousness. It is difficult to plunge into thinking over the information of vital track information elements. You get pushed out to the mental track as if a cork from a bottle and you begin to think over (process) only such information elements that correspond to mental track functions.

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    preference

    1. attention

    2. knowledge

    3. conscious vs. preconscious ... "difficult to plunge into thinking" (socionics: vital track information elements)

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    Sd1, Sd2, Sp, Sv

    ------

    Sd1: egocentric

    Sd2: allocentric

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    Sd1: handcraft

    Sd2: mathematics, engineering

    Sp: science

    Sv: architecture, art

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    Naomi L. Quenk:

    When we practice something over a long period, we tend to become aware of subtleties, nuances, and fine distinctions among the various aspects of that activity. For example, when first learning to play a musical instrument, we focus on the notes and their sequence. As time goes on, we add tempo, volume, tonal shadings. Later, we become aware of nuances of emotional expression that further refine our rendition of the music. And so on. This is known as differentiation.

    [...]

    The same process occurs when we become increasingly differentiated within a preferred function or attitude. Ideally, if one prefers Feeling over Thinking as a way of drawing conclusions, one’s use of Feeling will be complex, encompassing several different expressions of Feeling—for example, attending to one’s own values and well-being as well as those of others, and simultaneously empathizing with people who have quite different values and needs. In contrast, undifferentiated Feeling (often characterizing someone whose Thinking is differentiated) has a more black-and-white, all-or-none character with no shades of gray, perhaps focusing on one’s own values exclusively, empathizing with no regard for differences in people and situations.

    ------

    https://frithluton.com/articles/differentiation/

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    ILI

    Ni .... Ti (CEN)
    Te ... Ne
    ---------
    Si .... Ti
    Te ... Se


    Ni .... Fi (DMN)
    Fe ... Ne
    ---------
    Si .... Fi
    Fe ... Se

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    There is no difference between NiTe and TeNi.

    LIE: expressive + NiTe

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    LIE and ILI

    NiTe > SiTe (differentiation)

    NiFe > SiFe

    NiTe and SiTe complement each other.

    NiTe is more interesting than TiNe.

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    structure (the parietal lobe): Se, Ne, Ti, Fi

    cause and effect (the temporal lobe): Si, Ni, Te, Fe

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