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Thread: Model D

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    The types are probably asymmetric, so Si is connected to Se and Fe/Fi but Se is only connected to Si.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-streams_hypothesis

    "The ventral stream is associated with object recognition and form representation. Also described as the 'what' stream, it has strong connections to the medial temporal lobe (which stores long-term memories), the limbic system (which controls emotions), and the dorsal stream (which deals with object locations and motion)."

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    This is my current view on the model (if the types are symmetric).

    ILI

    introversion

    Si // Se, PFS > experience ..... most conscious (he or she can temporarily process Se // Si)

    Fe // Fi, PFS > experience

    Se // Si, experience

    Fi // Fe, experience ..... least conscious


    extraversion

    Fi // Fe, PFS > experience ..... most conscious (super-ego)

    Se // Si, PFS > experience

    Fe // Fi, experience

    Si // Se, experience ..... least conscious

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    introversion

    ...

    Se // Si, experience

    Fi // Fe, experience ..... least conscious
    It is also possible that these functions are introverted when supporting Si // Se and Fe // Fi, but otherwise they are extroverted. Then Fi // Fe (PFS > experience) is the most conscious process of the secondary functions (super-ego).

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6uwTrWsOe0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrbE_t2GEJw

    These ILIs could have a more conscious Se // Si (experience) than Fe // Fi (PFS > experience). They are clearly different from (for example) Jennifer Shahade, Tania Sachdev and Yasser Seirawan (ILI chess players and commentators).

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    I am considering this model as well. (extraversion and introversion are omitted here)

    ILI 1

    PFS and experience, primary functions ... Si is the most conscious function and Se is the least conscious function

    Si --- Fe
    | .......... |
    Se --- Fi


    experience, secondary functions ... Se is the most conscious function and Si is the least conscious function

    Se --- Fi
    | .......... |
    Si --- Fe




    ILI 2

    PFS and experience, primary functions ... Si is the most conscious function and Fe is the least conscious function

    Si --- Se
    | .......... |
    Fe --- Fi


    experience, secondary functions ... Fe is the most conscious function and Si is the least conscious function

    Fe --- Fi
    | .......... |
    Si --- Se

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    ILI 1 is similar to ILI 2 and EIE/IEI, so one could argue that ILI 1 and ILI 2 are different types.

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORl8g-q3Eoc

    These LIIs are very different from (for example) Paul Allen, David Keirsey Jr and Linus Torvalds.

    (Glenn Gould was probably an ILI, though).

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    EIE 1, IEI 1 ... journalist, marketing manager, politician

    PFS and experience, primary functions ... Fe is the most conscious function and Fi is the least conscious function.

    Fe --- Si
    |........|
    Fi --- Se


    experience, secondary functions ... Fi is the most conscious function and Fe is the least conscious function.

    Fi --- Se
    |........|
    Fe --- Si





    EIE 2, IEI 2 ... counselor, psychologist, teacher, actor

    PFS and experience, primary functions ... Fe is the most conscious function and Si is the least conscious function.

    Fe --- Fi
    |........|
    Si --- Se


    experience, secondary functions ... Si is the most conscious function and Fe is the least conscious function.

    Si --- Se
    |........|
    Fe --- Fi

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbitofrontal_cortex

    "Multiple functions have been ascribed to the OFC including mediating context specific responding, encoding contingencies in a flexible manner, encoding value, encoding inferred value, inhibiting responses, learning changes in contingency, emotional appraisal, altering behavior through somatic markers, driving social behavior, and representing state spaces."

    "The OFC is considered anatomically synonymous with the ventromedial prefrontal cortex."


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventro...frontal_cortex

    "It also plays a role in the inhibition of emotional responses, and in the process of decision making and self control. It is also involved in the cognitive evaluation of morality."

    "This finding contributes findings suggesting ventromedial prefrontal cortex being associated with preference judgement, possibly assigning the ventromedial prefrontal cortex a key role in constructing one's self. fMRI scans have found that the vmPFC is active when people think about themselves."


    OFC combines emotions and facts/interactions which leads to emotional awareness. This is probably Fi or Fi+.
    Last edited by Petter; 10-11-2020 at 09:27 AM.

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    cognitive processes <--> basic emotions

    Se (interaction) <--> trust, disgust, anger, fear

    Si (identification of objects) <--> interest, distraction/confusion, joy, sadness


    -----

    "Research has found that eyewitness-identification testimony can be very unreliable."

    "Although witnesses can often be very confident that their memory is accurate when identifying a suspect, the malleable nature of human memory and visual perception makes eyewitness testimony one of the most unreliable forms of evidence."

    identification of objects <--> trust
    Last edited by Petter; 10-16-2020 at 05:53 AM.

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    Interest motivates him (or her) to examine the object.

    Distraction/confusion motivates him to ignore the object.



    Trust motivates him to interact with the object.

    Disgust motivates him to reject the object.



    Joy motivates him to keep the object.

    Sadness motivates him to leave the object.



    Anger motivates him to move the object.

    Fear motivates him to move away from the object.

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    interest, distraction/confusion: a new/unidentified object

    trust, disgust: a reliable/safe object

    joy, sadness: a valued object (gain or lose)

    anger, fear: an obstacle

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    Sadness motivates him to leave the object.
    cognitive processes <--> basic emotions

    If a valued object is lost, then it causes sadness.

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    Economic Choice as an Untangling of Options into Actions

    Seng Bum Michael Yoo and Benjamin Yost Hayden

    Recently, Cisek and colleagues proposed that biased competition can serve as a useful explanatory framework for economic choice (Cisek and Kalaska, 2010; Pastor-Bernier and Cisek, 2011; Pezzulo and Cisek, 2016). In classic work on the ventral visual stream, Desimone and colleagues proposed that different objects are processed in parallel and compete for control of responses (Desimone, 1998; Desimone and Duncan, 1995). In their view, top-down attention refers to the process by which internally generated priorities enhance certain representations. These enhancements take place at multiple levels simultaneously and propagate forward, resulting in awareness of the attended option. Cisek and colleagues provide evidence that these principles apply to the choice system as well (Cisek, 2012; Cisek and Pastor-Bernier, 2014). This idea provides additional motivation for the idea that reward processing is analogous to—and may be an extension of—ventral stream processing.

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    "It is important to differentiate between problem solving, or problem analysis, and decision-making. Problem solving is the process of investigating the given information and finding all possible solutions through invention or discovery. Traditionally, it is argued that problem solving is a step towards decision making, so that the information gathered in that process may be used towards decision-making."

    Se is directly related to problem solving and Si is directly related to decision-making.

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-pKPqQZIBs

    He is either ILI or LIE (in my view). But math is processed by Se (and PFS), so does he really have a leading Si?

    If planning is the key difference between ILI and LII (instead of Se/Si), then it is possible that some ILIs have a leading Si and others have a leading Se.

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERBVFcutl3M

    This is an ILE with a leading Se.

    Jon Stewart, Bill Maher, John Cleese and Rowan Atkinson are also ILE, but do they lead with Se?

    http://www.insightsforchange.co.uk/a...es_Jul2012.pdf

    brain ILE.jpg

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brodmann_area_10

    "Present research suggests that it is involved in strategic processes in memory recall and various executive functions."

    "Although this region is extensive in humans, its function is poorly understood. Koechlin & Hyafil have proposed that processing of 'cognitive branching' is the core function of the frontopolar cortex. Cognitive branching enables a previously running task to be maintained in a pending state for subsequent retrieval and execution upon completion of the ongoing one. Many of our complex behaviors and mental activities require simultaneous engagement of multiple tasks, and they suggest the anterior prefrontal cortex may perform a domain-general function in these scheduling operations. Thus, the frontopolar cortex shares features with the central executive in Baddeley's model of working memory."

    "This area has also been implicated in decision making prior to the decision being available to conscious awareness."

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    "Brodmann Area 10 (BA10) is also known as the Frontal pole cortex and is known to be involved in cognition and more specifically in goal formation. In one paper, the authors argue that the left BA10 is involved in integrating information in higher level cognitive processes. There is a lot of research supporting a role for BA10 in memory. BA10 has been found to have a relationship with prospective memory in a number of studies."


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planning

    "Planning is the process of thinking about the activities required to achieve a desired goal."

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    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...s_and_dynamics

    Static types

    Perceive events in an episodic manner – discrete states rather than continuous changes.
    More inclined to say how stages A, B and C are.
    Describe events in a general manner and by comparing them to other similar events.
    More inclined to talk of properties and structures of reality.
    The stories of statics usually involve one constant main character.


    Dynamic types

    Perceive events in a continuous sequence – continuous changes rather than discrete states.
    More inclined to say how stage A leads to stage B, and how stage B leads to stage C.
    Describe events in a specific and concrete manner.
    More inclined to talk of movements and interactions of reality.
    The stories of dynamics usually involve multiple main characters.

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baddel...working_memory

    the central executive

    * updating and coding incoming information and replacing old information

    * binding information from a number of sources into coherent episodes

    * coordination of the slave systems

    * shifting between tasks or retrieval strategies

    * inhibition, suppressing dominant or automatic responses

    * selective attention

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    NEO PI-R

    Conscientiousness: degree of organization, persistence, control and motivation in goal directed behaviour

    Competence: belief in own self efficacy

    Order: personal organization

    Dutifulness: emphasis placed on importance of fulfilling moral obligations

    Achievement Striving: need for personal achievement and sense of direction

    Self-Discipline: capacity to begin tasks and follow through to completion despite boredom or distractions

    Deliberation: tendency to think things through before acting or speaking



    https://hexaco.org/scaledescriptions

    Conscientiousness: Persons with very high scores on the Conscientiousness scale organize their time and their physical surroundings, work in a disciplined way toward their goals, strive for accuracy and perfection in their tasks, and deliberate carefully when making decisions. Conversely, persons with very low scores on this scale tend to be unconcerned with orderly surroundings or schedules, avoid difficult tasks or challenging goals, are satisfied with work that contains some errors, and make decisions on impulse or with little reflection.

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    There are probably 32 personality types.

    Bill Gates: introverted, a planner/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Se

    Hillary Clinton: introverted, a planner/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Si

    Conor McGregor: extroverted, not a planner/not conscientious, secondary PFS, a leading Se

    Donald Trump: extroverted, not a planner/not conscientious, secondary PFS, a leading Si

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIRYT5qk03U

    military personnel: extroverted, planners/conscientious, secondary PFS, a leading Se

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    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t..._irrationality

    Rationals
    (Also called shizotymes in early socionics literature)

    Tend to plan ahead, make decisions early.
    Are more often rigid and stubborn.
    Do not like to change their decisions.
    Tend to finish what they started.
    Usually have stiff movements.
    Usually more 'authoritarian' leadership style.
    Low stress tolerance.


    Irrationals
    (Also called cyclotymes in early socionics literature)

    Tend to wait and see, more spontaneous.
    Are more often flexible and tolerant.
    Change their decisions frequently.
    Tend to start new things without finishing them.
    Usually have gentle movements.
    Usually more 'democratic' leadership style.
    High stress tolerance.




    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXJ-zpJeY3E

    Terence Tao: introverted, not a planner/not conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Se




    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mFM3Q8cWm0

    It is very likely that Bill Gates has a leading Se. So he must be an INTP in the Myers-Briggs model and an LII in Socionics. The problem here is that Terence Tao cannot have a leading Ni and "authoritarian leadership style" does not fit him.

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    This is my current view on Feeling.

    Fe = theory of mind

    Fi = experiencing mental images and emotions (i.e. emotional awareness, OFC)

    Fx = mirror neurons

    emotion, social cognition and cognition 2.jpg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social...e_neuroscience

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langua...g_in_the_brain

    The auditory ventral/dorsal streams are probably related to Fe and Fi as well.

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_process_theory

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0R12fcTUvs

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8NPllzkFhE

    Seth Lloyd and Linus Torvalds: introverted, not planners/not conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Se

    But they seem quite different. I think Seth is an intuitive subtype (or system 1) and Linus is a logical subtype (or system 2).



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    Fe ... social decision-making, social memories, theory of mind (DMN) ... Decisions are based on emotions instead of logic/math.

    Fi ... mirror neurons: emotional awareness, self-awareness, empathy

    -----

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

    "Mirror neurons have been interpreted as the mechanism by which we simulate others in order to better understand them ... More recently, Theory of Mind and Simulation have been seen as complementary systems ..."

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqnWBglOPWU

    Tyra Banks (?): extroverted, a planner/conscientious, secondary PFS, a leading Fi

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    Fi ... mirror neurons: emotional awareness, self-awareness, empathy
    ... and social interactions

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxvQ3Wyw2M4

    Lex Fridman and Sean Carroll: introverted, planners/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Se

    I think Lex is a logical subtype and Sean is an intuitive subtype.

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5zCGY0tkq8

    Bjarne Stroustrup: introverted, a planner/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Se ... logical subtype

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y00SzLo79R8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJFnAqoErd8


    Phil Ivey and Patrik Antonius: introverted, planners/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Si ... intuitive subtype

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2XMee_-dtk

    Magnus Carlsen: introverted, a planner/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Si ... intuitive subtype

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFl1IEBoFAE

    lawyers: introverted, planners/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Si ... logical subtype

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    Bill Gates: introverted, a planner/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Se
    logical subtype

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    Mark Zuckerberg: introverted, a planner/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Se ... logical subtype

    Max Tegmark: introverted, a planner/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Se ... intuitive subtype

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    Mark Zuckerberg: introverted, a planner/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Se ... logical subtype
    You think Mark Zuckerberg is an Se lead?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    You think Mark Zuckerberg is an Se lead?
    I only use four functions: Se, Si, Fe and Fi. Why? Because PFS is dependent on the functions, but the functions can process information without PFS. Mark Zuckerberg has a leading Se and primary PFS.

    Se = dorsal stream (or FPN, fronto-parietal network)

    Si = ventral stream (or DMN, default mode network)

    PFS = prefrontal synthesis ... the conscious purposeful process of synthesizing novel mental images

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