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Thread: Model D

  1. #161
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    ILI's dominant function is Si+ and IEI's dominant function is Fe+. ILI can compromise with Fe+ but he/she cannot compromise with Si+, and IEI can compromise with Si+ but he/she cannot compromise with Fe+. That is why Si+ (Fe+) and Fe+ (Si+) look so different.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind

    'Generally, children with more advanced theory of mind abilities display more advanced social skills, greater adaptability to new situations, and greater cooperation with others. As a result, these children are typically well-liked. However, “children may use their mind-reading abilities to manipulate, outwit, tease, or trick their peers”.'

    Fe is definitely related to theory of mind. But ILI usually doesn't manipulate people, so why is Fe+ a conscious (or strong) function? I think ILI's Fe+ is passive and he/she is aware of manipulative people.

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    "​The second peculiarity: the contents of vital track functions is the result of individual period of psyche development, the period when we are individuals, when we are the hub of the universe, when everything rotates around us, around our interests, when we are still children and we are not interested in the society with all its demands. Socionists say: the vital track is the superblock of individual life activity. This means that vital track functions work for our individual needs and in the way that is customary and comfortable for us."

    This could be another reason why ILI's Fe+ is different from IEI's Fe+. ILI's Fe+, Fi-, Se+ and Si- would be "individual functions".

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    Here's yet another explanation.

    All functions can lead, so IEI does not play tennis (for example) with a leading Fe+. But some functions can more easily become leading functions.

    ILI:

    Si+ and auxiliary functions (Fe+, Se- and Fi-)

    Se- and auxiliary functions (Fi-, Si+ and Fe+)

    Fi+ and auxiliary functions (Se+, Fe- and Si-)

    Fe- and aux...

    Si- and aux...

    Se+ and aux...

    Fi- and aux...

    Fe+ and aux...
    Last edited by Petter; 10-24-2019 at 04:14 PM.

  2. #162
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    Si-, Se+, Si+, Se-.gif

    You cannot associate the suitcase (i.e. the object/pattern) with a mug. Why? Because the suitcase includes a context (a traveler or a train etc). But you can associate the suitcase with a new/different context (Si+).

    It is possible that Se+ (or Ne) does not associate between objects (or the structure of objects). Instead, it carefully examines the structure (rotates it etc) and Si- then recognizes a "new object".

    Ne = Se+ combined with Si- (?)


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    Si-/Se+ ... the fundamental structure is changed, so the context (or object/pattern) is also changed ... pattern + change = new pattern (i.e. known pattern or previously non-existent pattern)

    "What's the only difference between a vacuum and a Harley? Where the dirt bag sits." ... the object and the context have changed, i.e. dirtbag now describes a dirty person (with a different context)



    Si+/Se- ... the object is moved to a new/different context, which is added to the object (and gives it a deeper meaning) ... pattern + pattern = different pattern

    Ni/Si+ you visualize a big parachute on top of a Boeing 737 ... the objects/patterns have not changed, but there is an additional pattern

    Se- assembles a product ... every part of the product is an object/pattern ... pattern + pattern + pattern + pattern etc. = different pattern (Si+)


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    Si+ combines known objects (or patterns) and creates a different object (or a new/different context), so Se- cannot change the fundamental structure.

    Se- can saw a plank in half since the fundamental structure is the same.



    Se+ changes the fundamental structure (or shape), so Si- must provide known/actual objects.

    Se+ cannot change the structure of an unclear/unfinished object.



    ... so SLI / ISTJ (or ISTp) is an "Ne user" (when Si- leads).
    Last edited by Petter; 10-30-2019 at 05:42 AM.

  3. #163
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    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ion-(Filatova)

    "Flights of fantasy and blurry boundlessness – such things are not characteristic of SLI. He cannot sufficiently evaluate the long-term prospects of one task over another or accurately predict someone's actions, and thus finds it difficult to solve strategic problems. Sometimes he makes mistakes in judging people and is inclined to view them in a more positive, advantageous light, and then later feels deceived by his expectations. In his designs and assessments of future prospects, he has to depend on his ability to make realistic estimates rather than intuition. For additional certainty, he discusses his plans with his colleagues, to confirm that they correspond to the established regulations and norms, which others deem sensible."

    I think this is an accurate description of SLI's Ni, but I don't see how it can be the third most conscious function.

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    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Functions

    "This role function is also called the third function. When a person is actively using his base function, the role function is essentially turned off. The two cannot both be "on" at the same time, because they represent two opposing approaches to similar things."

    I agree with Wikisocion here, but this means that Si-Te-Ni-Fe is not a mental track.

    EDIT: I think Si and Ni complement each other. Si is more basic, though, so you can use Si without Ni but you cannot use Ni without Si.
    Last edited by Petter; 10-31-2019 at 05:23 AM.

  4. #164
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    Si-/Se+ ... the object/pattern is static, the fundamental structure is dynamic

    Si- zooms in on an object/pattern ... Se+ moves geons (or other 3D shapes) and changes the fundamental structure ... engineering



    Si+/Se- ... the object/pattern is dynamic, the fundamental structure is static

    one object/pattern always moves towards another pattern/context ... nuts and bolts etc --> machine ... or this particle --> these particles?


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    Si-/Se- ... this does not work ... you would experience the world like an animal (i.e. only reactions).

    Si+/Se+ ... this does not work either ... Si+ is about a connection between two (or more) objects/patterns ... so if you zoom in on one object (in order to rotate it etc.) then you lose the connection.

    Here's another way to put it: you cannot be an "Ne user" and an "Ni user".


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    Ni Te Fi Se etc (Grant) is not possible. Why? Because you need a starting point (i.e. a "scene"), so Ni is always preceded by a memory (Si).

    Si: "Episodic memory is defined as the ability to recall and mentally reexperience specific episodes from one's personal past"

    Ni: "Episodic future thinking refers to the capacity to imagine or simulate experiences that might occur in one's personal future."
    Last edited by Petter; 11-01-2019 at 10:43 AM.

  5. #165
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    An object is always related to other objects (i.e. it must be placed somewhere). If it is a useful relation/pattern, then you want to memorize it.

    There are two questions (Si and Se): What objects are included in the pattern? (What is the pattern?) and Where is the object located (in relation to the other objects)?

    If you are unsure about the pattern or find it useless, then you can change it by using Intuition/PFC (or trial-and-error). You can add a new object or a new context (Ni/Si+), and you can change the structure/interaction (stretch it, rotate it etc ... Ne/Se+).

  6. #166
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    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5382157/

    The medial temporal lobe (MTL) includes the hippocampus, amygdala and parahippocampal regions, and is crucial for episodic and spatial memory. MTL memory function consists of distinct processes such as encoding, consolidation and retrieval. Encoding is the process by which perceived information is transformed into a memory trace. After encoding, memory traces are stabilized by consolidation. Memory retrieval (recall) refers to the process by which memory traces are reactivated to access information previously encoded and stored in the brain. Although underlying neural mechanisms supporting these distinct functional stages remain largely unknown, recent studies have indicated that distinct oscillatory dynamics, specific neuron types, synaptic plasticity and neuromodulation, play a central role. The theta rhythm is believed to be crucial in the encoding and retrieval of memories. Experimental and computational studies indicate that precise timing of principal cell firing in the hippocampus, relative to the theta rhythm, underlies encoding and retrieval processes. On the other hand, sharp-wave ripples have been implicated in the consolidation through the “replay” of memories in compressed time scales.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occipital_lobe

    The first functional area is the primary visual cortex. It contains a low-level description of the local orientation, spatial-frequency and color properties within small receptive fields. Primary visual cortex projects to the occipital areas of the ventral stream (visual area V2 and visual area V4), and the occipital areas of the dorsal stream—visual area V3, visual area MT (V5), and the dorsomedial area (DM).

    The ventral stream is known for the processing the "what" in vision, while the dorsal stream handles the "where/how." This is because the ventral stream provides important information for the identification of stimuli that are stored in memory. With this information in memory, the dorsal stream is able to focus on motor actions in response to the outside stimuli.



    https://www.jneurosci.org/content/32/24/8107

    The idea of a division between a dorsal and a ventral visual stream is one of the most basic principles of visual processing in the brain (Milner and Goodale, 1995). The ventral stream originates in primary visual cortex and extends along the ventral surface into the temporal cortex; the dorsal stream also arises in primary visual cortex, but continues along the dorsal surface into parietal cortex. The ventral stream (or “vision-for-perception” pathway) is believed to mainly subserve recognition and discrimination of visual shapes and objects, whereas the dorsal stream (or “vision-for-action” pathway) has been primarily associated with visually guided reaching and grasping based on the moment-to-moment analysis of the spatial location, shape, and orientation of objects. It has been proposed, however, that the dorsal stream also processes tools as a category, so that manipulable objects would be processed by those brain regions that are important for the execution of actions. However, because dorsal and ventral visual regions are heavily interconnected, it is difficult to tell in healthy subjects whether information is processed along the dorsal stream only, or whether it is fed to parietal cortex via ventral visual regions.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1GnXFVf2MQ

    Spontaneous (real-time) brain activity using tNLM filtering of fMRI data


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    Why are there mental and vital functions? Because two functions must process information simultaneously. You cannot observe structural differences (Se: longer, higher, fewer...) without being somewhat aware of the object (Si).


    ILI

    Si+ (Fe+) // Se+ (Fi+) ... strong (ego)

    Se- (Fi-) // Si- (Fe-) ... weak
    ________________

    Fi+ (Se+) // Fe+ (Si+) ... strong (super-ego)

    Fe- (Si-) // Fi- (Se-) ... weak
    Last edited by Petter; 11-04-2019 at 09:50 AM.

  7. #167
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    https://www.jneurosci.org/content/32/24/8107

    "It has been proposed, however, that the dorsal stream also processes tools as a category, so that manipulable objects would be processed by those brain regions that are important for the execution of actions."

    dorsal ventral 4.gif

    Se does not want colors and other details, so the pattern/image is transformed into a manipulable object (i.e. matter in space or structure).

    My current view is that Ne/Se+ (PFC) can move structures/shapes, and Ni/Si+ (PFC) can move patterns/objects.
    Last edited by Petter; 11-09-2019 at 03:19 PM.

  8. #168
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    "Why are there mental and vital functions? Because two functions must process information simultaneously."

    Is this correct? hmm...



    ILI

    Si+ (Fe+) // Se+ (Fi+) ... strong (ego)

    Se- (Fi-) // Si- (Fe-) ... weak
    ________________

    Fi+ (Se+) // Fe+ (Si+) ... strong (super-ego)

    Fe- (Si-) // Fi- (Se-) ... weak



    OR



    ILI

    Si+ (Se-) // Fe+ (Fi-) ... strong (ego)

    Se- (Si+) // Fi- (Fe+) ... weak
    _________________

    Fi+ (Fe-) // Se+ (Si-) ... strong (super-ego)

    Fe- (Fi+) // Si- (Se+) ... weak
    Last edited by Petter; 11-13-2019 at 12:22 AM.

  9. #169
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    Here's a visualization of the functions.

    functions.gif

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