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Thread: Model D

  1. #161
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    ILI's dominant function is Si+ and IEI's dominant function is Fe+. ILI can compromise with Fe+ but he/she cannot compromise with Si+, and IEI can compromise with Si+ but he/she cannot compromise with Fe+. That is why Si+ (Fe+) and Fe+ (Si+) look so different.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind

    'Generally, children with more advanced theory of mind abilities display more advanced social skills, greater adaptability to new situations, and greater cooperation with others. As a result, these children are typically well-liked. However, “children may use their mind-reading abilities to manipulate, outwit, tease, or trick their peers”.'

    Fe is definitely related to theory of mind. But ILI usually doesn't manipulate people, so why is Fe+ a conscious (or strong) function? I think ILI's Fe+ is passive and he/she is aware of manipulative people.

    -----

    "​The second peculiarity: the contents of vital track functions is the result of individual period of psyche development, the period when we are individuals, when we are the hub of the universe, when everything rotates around us, around our interests, when we are still children and we are not interested in the society with all its demands. Socionists say: the vital track is the superblock of individual life activity. This means that vital track functions work for our individual needs and in the way that is customary and comfortable for us."

    This could be another reason why ILI's Fe+ is different from IEI's Fe+. ILI's Fe+, Fi-, Se+ and Si- would be "individual functions".

    -----

    Here's yet another explanation.

    All functions can lead, so IEI does not play tennis (for example) with a leading Fe+. But some functions can more easily become leading functions.

    ILI

    Si+ and auxiliary functions (Fe+, Se- and Fi-)

    Se- and auxiliary functions (Fi-, Si+ and Fe+)

    Fi+ and auxiliary functions (Se+, Fe- and Si-)

    Fe- and aux...

    Si- and aux...

    Se+ and aux...

    Fi- and aux...

    Fe+ and aux...



    EDIT 11-25-2019

    ... or the strong functions can lead:

    Si+ (Fe+) Se- (Fi-) ... ego

    Fi+ (Se+) Fe- (Si-) ... super-ego

    Se+ (Fi+) Si- (Fe-)

    Fe+ (Si+) Fi- (Se-)
    Last edited by Petter; 11-25-2019 at 07:36 AM.

  2. #162
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    Si-, Se+, Si+, Se-.gif

    You cannot associate the suitcase (i.e. the object/pattern) with a mug. Why? Because the suitcase includes a context (a traveler or a train etc). But you can associate the suitcase with a new/different context (Si+).

    It is possible that Se+ (or Ne) does not associate between objects (or the structure of objects). Instead, it carefully examines the structure (rotates it etc) and Si- then recognizes a "new object".

    Ne = Se+ combined with Si- (?)


    ------


    Si-/Se+ ... the fundamental structure is changed, so the context (or object/pattern) is also changed ... pattern + change = new pattern (i.e. known pattern or previously non-existent pattern)

    "What's the only difference between a vacuum and a Harley? Where the dirt bag sits." ... the object and the context have changed, i.e. dirtbag now describes a dirty person (with a different context)



    Si+/Se- ... the object is moved to a new/different context, which is added to the object (and gives it a deeper meaning) ... pattern + pattern = different pattern

    Ni/Si+ you visualize a big parachute on top of a Boeing 737 ... the objects/patterns have not changed, but there is an additional pattern

    Se- assembles a product ... every part of the product is an object/pattern ... pattern + pattern + pattern + pattern etc. = different pattern (Si+)


    ------


    Si+ combines known objects (or patterns) and creates a different object (or a new/different context), so Se- cannot change the fundamental structure.

    Se- can saw a plank in half since the fundamental structure is the same.



    Se+ changes the fundamental structure (or shape), so Si- must provide known/actual objects.

    Se+ cannot change the structure of an unclear/unfinished object.



    ... so SLI / ISTJ (or ISTp) is an "Ne user" (when Si- leads).
    Last edited by Petter; 10-30-2019 at 05:42 AM.

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    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ion-(Filatova)

    "Flights of fantasy and blurry boundlessness – such things are not characteristic of SLI. He cannot sufficiently evaluate the long-term prospects of one task over another or accurately predict someone's actions, and thus finds it difficult to solve strategic problems. Sometimes he makes mistakes in judging people and is inclined to view them in a more positive, advantageous light, and then later feels deceived by his expectations. In his designs and assessments of future prospects, he has to depend on his ability to make realistic estimates rather than intuition. For additional certainty, he discusses his plans with his colleagues, to confirm that they correspond to the established regulations and norms, which others deem sensible."

    I think this is an accurate description of SLI's Ni, but I don't see how it can be the third most conscious function.

    ------

    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Functions

    "This role function is also called the third function. When a person is actively using his base function, the role function is essentially turned off. The two cannot both be "on" at the same time, because they represent two opposing approaches to similar things."

    I agree with Wikisocion here, but this means that Si-Te-Ni-Fe is not a mental track.

    EDIT: I think Si and Ni complement each other. Si is more basic, though, so you can use Si without Ni but you cannot use Ni without Si.
    Last edited by Petter; 10-31-2019 at 05:23 AM.

  4. #164
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    Si-/Se+ ... the object/pattern is static, the fundamental structure is dynamic

    Si- zooms in on an object/pattern ... Se+ moves geons (or other 3D shapes) and changes the fundamental structure ... engineering



    Si+/Se- ... the object/pattern is dynamic, the fundamental structure is static

    one object/pattern always moves towards another pattern/context ... nuts and bolts etc --> machine ... or this particle --> these particles?


    ------


    Si-/Se- ... this does not work ... you would experience the world like an animal (i.e. only reactions).

    Si+/Se+ ... this does not work either ... Si+ is about a connection between two (or more) objects/patterns ... so if you zoom in on one object (in order to rotate it etc.) then you lose the connection.

    Here's another way to put it: you cannot be an "Ne user" and an "Ni user".


    ------


    Ni Te Fi Se etc (Grant) is not possible. Why? Because you need a starting point (i.e. a "scene"), so Ni is always preceded by a memory (Si).

    Si: "Episodic memory is defined as the ability to recall and mentally reexperience specific episodes from one's personal past"

    Ni: "Episodic future thinking refers to the capacity to imagine or simulate experiences that might occur in one's personal future."
    Last edited by Petter; 11-01-2019 at 10:43 AM.

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    An object is always related to other objects (i.e. it must be placed somewhere). If it is a useful relation/pattern, then you want to memorize it.

    There are two questions (Si and Se): What objects are included in the pattern? (What is the pattern?) and Where is the object located (in relation to the other objects)?

    If you are unsure about the pattern or find it useless, then you can change it by using Intuition/PFC (or trial-and-error). You can add a new object or a new context (Ni/Si+), and you can change the structure/interaction (stretch it, rotate it etc ... Ne/Se+).

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    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5382157/

    The medial temporal lobe (MTL) includes the hippocampus, amygdala and parahippocampal regions, and is crucial for episodic and spatial memory. MTL memory function consists of distinct processes such as encoding, consolidation and retrieval. Encoding is the process by which perceived information is transformed into a memory trace. After encoding, memory traces are stabilized by consolidation. Memory retrieval (recall) refers to the process by which memory traces are reactivated to access information previously encoded and stored in the brain. Although underlying neural mechanisms supporting these distinct functional stages remain largely unknown, recent studies have indicated that distinct oscillatory dynamics, specific neuron types, synaptic plasticity and neuromodulation, play a central role. The theta rhythm is believed to be crucial in the encoding and retrieval of memories. Experimental and computational studies indicate that precise timing of principal cell firing in the hippocampus, relative to the theta rhythm, underlies encoding and retrieval processes. On the other hand, sharp-wave ripples have been implicated in the consolidation through the “replay” of memories in compressed time scales.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occipital_lobe

    The first functional area is the primary visual cortex. It contains a low-level description of the local orientation, spatial-frequency and color properties within small receptive fields. Primary visual cortex projects to the occipital areas of the ventral stream (visual area V2 and visual area V4), and the occipital areas of the dorsal stream—visual area V3, visual area MT (V5), and the dorsomedial area (DM).

    The ventral stream is known for the processing the "what" in vision, while the dorsal stream handles the "where/how." This is because the ventral stream provides important information for the identification of stimuli that are stored in memory. With this information in memory, the dorsal stream is able to focus on motor actions in response to the outside stimuli.



    https://www.jneurosci.org/content/32/24/8107

    The idea of a division between a dorsal and a ventral visual stream is one of the most basic principles of visual processing in the brain (Milner and Goodale, 1995). The ventral stream originates in primary visual cortex and extends along the ventral surface into the temporal cortex; the dorsal stream also arises in primary visual cortex, but continues along the dorsal surface into parietal cortex. The ventral stream (or “vision-for-perception” pathway) is believed to mainly subserve recognition and discrimination of visual shapes and objects, whereas the dorsal stream (or “vision-for-action” pathway) has been primarily associated with visually guided reaching and grasping based on the moment-to-moment analysis of the spatial location, shape, and orientation of objects. It has been proposed, however, that the dorsal stream also processes tools as a category, so that manipulable objects would be processed by those brain regions that are important for the execution of actions. However, because dorsal and ventral visual regions are heavily interconnected, it is difficult to tell in healthy subjects whether information is processed along the dorsal stream only, or whether it is fed to parietal cortex via ventral visual regions.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1GnXFVf2MQ

    Spontaneous (real-time) brain activity using tNLM filtering of fMRI data


    ------


    Why are there mental and vital functions? Because two functions must process information simultaneously. You cannot observe structural differences (Se: longer, higher, fewer...) without being somewhat aware of the object (Si).


    ILI

    Si+ (Fe+) // Se+ (Fi+) ... strong (ego)

    Se- (Fi-) // Si- (Fe-) ... weak
    ________________

    Fi+ (Se+) // Fe+ (Si+) ... strong (super-ego)

    Fe- (Si-) // Fi- (Se-) ... weak
    Last edited by Petter; 11-04-2019 at 09:50 AM.

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    https://www.jneurosci.org/content/32/24/8107

    "It has been proposed, however, that the dorsal stream also processes tools as a category, so that manipulable objects would be processed by those brain regions that are important for the execution of actions."

    dorsal ventral 4.gif

    Se does not want colors and other details, so the pattern/image is transformed into a manipulable object (i.e. matter in space or structure).

    My current view is that Ne/Se+ (PFC) can move structures/shapes, and Ni/Si+ (PFC) can move patterns/objects.
    Last edited by Petter; 11-09-2019 at 03:19 PM.

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    "Why are there mental and vital functions? Because two functions must process information simultaneously."

    Is this correct? hmm...



    ILI

    Si+ (Fe+) // Se+ (Fi+) ... strong (ego)

    Se- (Fi-) // Si- (Fe-) ... weak
    ________________

    Fi+ (Se+) // Fe+ (Si+) ... strong (super-ego)

    Fe- (Si-) // Fi- (Se-) ... weak



    OR



    ILI

    Si+ (Se-) // Fe+ (Fi-) ... strong (ego)

    Se- (Si+) // Fi- (Fe+) ... weak
    _________________

    Fi+ (Fe-) // Se+ (Si-) ... strong (super-ego)

    Fe- (Fi+) // Si- (Se+) ... weak
    Last edited by Petter; 11-13-2019 at 12:22 AM.

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    Here's a visualization of the functions.

    functions.gif

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    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2805551/

    Relatively little is known about the neural bases of the Big Five personality trait Openness/Intellect. This trait is composed of two related but separable aspects, Openness to Experience and Intellect. On the basis of previous behavioral research
    (DeYoung, Peterson, & Higgins, 2005), we hypothesized that brain activity supporting working memory (WM) would be related to Intellect but not Openness. To test this hypothesis we used fMRI to scan a sample of 104 healthy adults, as they performed a difficult WM task. Intellect (and not Openness) was found to correlate with WM accuracy and with accuracy-related brain activity, in left lateral anterior prefrontal cortex and posterior medial frontal cortex. Neural activity in these regions mediated the association between Intellect and WM performance, implicating these regions in the neural substrate of Intellect. Intellect was also correlated significantly with scores on tests of intelligence and working memory capacity, but the association of Intellect with brain activity could not be entirely explained by cognitive ability.



    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep05954

    The Default Mode Network (DMN) regions exhibit deactivation during a wide variety of resource demanding tasks. However, recent brain imaging studies reported that they also show activation during various cognitive activities. In addition, studies have found a negative correlation between the DMN and the working memory network (WMN). Here, we investigated activity in the DMN and WMN regions during preparation and execution phases of a verbal working memory task. Results showed that the core DMN regions, including the medial prefrontal cortex and posterior cingulate cortex and WMN regions were activated during preparation. During execution, however, the WMN regions were activated but the DMN regions were deactivated. The results suggest that activation of these network regions is affected by allocation of attentional resources to the task relevant regions due to task demands. This study extends our previous results by showing that the core DMN regions exhibit activation during task preparation and deactivation during task execution.

    Recent brain imaging studies showed that there are a number of large-scale brain networks, resting state and task-related, including the dorsal attentional network (DAN), the frontoparietal network (FPN) or executive working memory network (WMN), the primary motor network, the primary visual network and the Default Mode Network (DMN). These networks may sometimes work together to perform tasks, but may compete with each other for processing resources.



    Human Memory: Third Edition ... by Gabriel A. Radvansky

    The DMN is a collection of brain structures whose activity is highly correlated. The DMN is more active when a person does not have attention strongly engaged in som activity. That is, the activation of the DMn is negatively correlated with activity in of various attention networks in the brain (Andrews-Hanna, 2012). In some sense, this network in the brain that is more active by default when people are colloquially thinking about "nothing in particular," such as when they are daydreaming , mind-wandering, autobiographically remembering, or perhaps engaging in episodic future thinking about their own lives or people they know. This network is also active when a person is watching a television show or a film (Hasson, Furman, Clark, Dudai, & Davachi, 2008; Lerner, Honey, Silbert, & Hasson, 2011; Regev, Honey, Simony, & Hasson, 2013) and so may be involved in basic comprehension.

    The DMN is made up of a number of structures, including parts of the parietal lobe, such as the posterior cingulate cortex (BAs 23 and 31), the angular gyrus (BA 39), and the precuneus (BA 7), parts of the frontal lobe, such as the dorsomedial and medial prefrontal cortices (BA 11), and parts of the temporal lobe, including its lateral portions and the anterior pole, as well as parts of the hippocampal complex such as the hippocampus, parahippocampus, and retrosplenial cortices (see the next section)(Andrews-Hanna, Smallwood, & Spreng, 2014). Keep in mind that the DMN is an example of one collection of structures working together. There are others.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbitofrontal_cortex

    The orbitofrontal cortex (OFC) is a prefrontal cortex region in the frontal lobes of the brain which is involved in the cognitive process of decision-making. In non-human primates it consists of the association cortex areas Brodmann area 11, 12 and 13; in humans it consists of Brodmann area 10, 11 and 47.

    Multiple functions have been ascribed to the OFC including mediating context specific responding, encoding contingencies in a flexible manner, encoding value, encoding inferred value, inhibiting responses, learning changes in contingency, emotional appraisal, altering behavior through somatic markers, driving social behavior, and representing state spaces. While most of these theories explain certain aspects of electrophysiological observations and lesion related changes in behavior, they often fail to explain, or are contradicted by other findings. One proposal that explains the variety of OFC functions is that the OFC encodes state spaces, or the discrete configuration of internal and external characteristics associated with a situation and its contingencies. For example the proposal that the OFC encodes economic value may be a reflection of the OFC encoding task state value. The representation of task states could also explain the proposal that the OFC acts as a flexible map of contingencies, as a switch in task state would enable the encoding of new contingencies in one state, with the preservation of old contingencies in a separate state, enabling switching contingencies when the old task state becomes relevant again. The representation of task states is supported by electrophysiological evidence demonstrating that the OFC responds to a diverse array of task features, and is capable of rapidly remapping during contingency shifts. The representation of task states may influence behavior through multiple potential mechanisms. For example, the OFC is necessary for ventral tegmental area (VTA) neurons to produce a dopaminergic reward prediction error, and the OFC may encode expectations for computation of RPEs in the VTA.



    DMN and FPN.png

    https://source.wustl.edu/2013/08/bra...-humans-adapt/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_mode_network

    "It is also active when the individual is thinking about others, thinking about themselves, remembering the past, and planning for the future."

    Si could be
    related to the default mode network (DMN, task-negative) and Se could be related to the fronto-parietal network (FPN, task-positive). This would explain the existence of mental and vital functions. But on the other hand, some researchers refer to FPN as a "flexible hub network". And DMN seems to include the angular gyrus, which deals with number processing (i.e. Se).





    Last edited by Petter; 11-29-2019 at 09:36 AM.

  11. #171
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    https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...sion_final.pdf

    Some critics of the two-visual-systems hypothesis (TVSH) argue that it is incompatible with the fundamentally egocentric nature of visual experience (what we call the ‘perspectival account’). The TVSH proposes that the ventral stream, which delivers up our visual experience of the world, works in an allocentric frame of reference, whereas the dorsal stream, which mediates the visual control of action, uses egocentric frames of reference. Given that the TVSH is also committed to the claim that dorsal-stream processing does not contribute to the contents of visual experience, it has been argued that the TVSH cannot account for the egocentric features of our visual experience. This argument, however, rests on a misunderstanding about how the operations mediating action and the operations mediating perception are specified in the TVSH. In this article, we emphasize the importance of the ‘outputs’ of the two systems to the specification of their respective operations. We argue that once this point is appreciated, it becomes evident that the TVSH is entirely compatible with a perspectival account of visual experience.

    It is possible that Si (Fe) is allocentric and Se (Fi) is egocentric.



    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...014.00803/full

    "As alluded to earlier, early research tied the idea of an allocentric representation closely to a cognitive map, which was postulated to posses many of the same qualities as a cartographic map."

    This is definitely related to SLI.



    http://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/mkozh...ag=allocentric

    However, Si corresponds to object visualization and Se corresponds to spatial visualization.
    Last edited by Petter; 11-29-2019 at 08:42 AM.

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    "Functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) studies of brain activation during mental rotation reveal consistent increased activation of the parietal lobe, specifically the inter-parietal sulcus, that is dependent on the difficulty of the task."

    My current view is that both Se- and Se+ can move an object. The difference is that Se+ moves an object to a new/unusual position.

    Si+ cannot move an object. Instead, it projects an object onto a "scene". The new pattern includes the object and the "scene".

    For example: a table is a pattern, a chair is a pattern, a bowl is a pattern, a spoon is a pattern ... and a spoon in a bowl, on a table, next to a chair is also a pattern ... so Si+/- does not perceive spatial relations.
    Last edited by Petter; 12-02-2019 at 09:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    There could be a connection between the functions and the basic emotions.


    Se- maximize anger, minimize fear

    Se+ minimize not anger, maximize not fear


    Si+ maximize anticipation, minimize surprise

    Si- minimize not anticipation, maximize not surprise (tradition, custom...)


    Fi- maximize trust, minimize disgust

    Fi+ minimize not trust (i.e. distrust), maximize not disgust


    Fe+ maximize joy, minimize sadness

    Fe- minimize not joy, maximize not sadness
    Here's an example:

    Se+ ... math --> engineering --> a bridge --> no need to climb --> he or she avoids dangerous situations

    I think robots are the ultimate expression of Se+.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    Si interprets the meaning of visual stimuli and establishes object/pattern recognition. It forms new memories and recall memories.

    Se perceives/simulates an interaction between a person and objects/people.

    Fe = awareness that one specific pattern causes one specific emotional state (?)

    Fi = awareness that one specific interaction causes one specific emotional state (?)

    I think Se and Si are accurately defined, but Fe and Fi have to be modified.

    We interact with objects and we identify objects (Se and Si), and we interact with subjects and we identify subjects (Fi and Fe). But what does the latter mean? We can move an object but we (usually) cannot move another person. Instead, Fi and Fe deal with social relationships and cooperation. We need other people to hunt, to farm, for protection etc. That is why Fi is directly related to mirror neurons. Fi imitates another person, which is essential for cooperation, and builds a (new) relationship. Fe identifies the relationship via facial expressions, tone of voice and body language.

    -----

    "The original role of emotions was to motivate adaptive behaviors that in the past would have contributed to the passing on of genes through survival, reproduction, and kin selection."

    Joy informs a person that he/she is on the right track: Keep identifying a useful relationship.

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_cingulate_cortex

    "The ACC area in the brain is associated with many functions that are correlated with conscious experience. Greater ACC activation levels were present in more emotionally aware female participants when shown short 'emotional' video clips. Better emotional awareness is associated with improved recognition of emotional cues or targets, which is reflected by ACC activation."

    Fe is definitely related to the cingulate cortex.

    -----

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

    "Stephanie Preston and Frans de Waal, Jean Decety, and Vittorio Gallese and Christian Keysers have independently argued that the mirror neuron system is involved in empathy." (mainly Fi+)

    "David Freedberg and Vittorio Gallese have also put forward the idea that this function of the mirror neuron system is crucial for aesthetic experiences." (mainly Fi- ... ESI: art, fashion etc)
    Last edited by Petter; 02-29-2020 at 07:18 PM.

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    Here's a clarification on Te and Ti. Te is about a) logical reasoning and b) facts, technology, effectiveness etc. Ti is about a) logical reasoning and b) size, direction, angle, quantity etc.

    b) in Te is included in Si and b) in Ti is included in Se.

    -----

    However, FPN includes the frontal lobe and the parietal lobe. So when Se is activated, logical reasoning is activated as well. (IQ measures how efficiently a person uses logical reasoning).

    Hence, logical reasoning (i.e. comparing objects/patterns and extracting information) is also included in Se and Si.

    It is a process: sensation --> perception --> cognition ... OR ... sensation --> cognition --> perception

    -----

    Intelligence/IQ is a part of our personality but it is not a part of our personality type.

    16pf.png
    Last edited by Petter; 03-15-2020 at 10:44 AM.

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    https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-di...and-perception

    "Perception is a process: first comes sensation, then comes cognition; perception is sensing influenced by cognition. For example, if someone calls you a name:

    1. you hear it, then

    2. you think about it (whether quickly or not), then

    3. what you were thinking affects how you perceive what was said."

    -----

    This means that Thinking and Sensing cannot be two separate functions.

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    It is possible that the functions correspond to (large-scale) brain networks.

    The motivation network, Fe/Fi (?):

    motivation network.png

    -----

    Si + F = Fe (?)

    Se + F = Fi (?)

    Nardi's brain maps do not support this, though. They look more like Se -- Si -- Fe -- Fi, so Se types show the least empathy (Fi).
    Last edited by Petter; 03-16-2020 at 07:17 AM.

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    I think the right PFC (i.e. "Intuition") is essentially logic with real objects/patterns.

    The left hemisphere deals with symbolic representations of objects. They are simplified and definite objects (words and other symbols) and are used in communication between people.

    A = B, B = C, therefore A = C. This is processed by the left PFC ... A = B is compared to B = C

    Is a dolphin a fish or a mammal? ("Ne" categorization/classification). This is processed by the right PFC ... a visual image of a dolphin is compared to a visual image of a fish and a mammal

    -----

    Ne: "With someone else, talk about everything you could do with the object that you have not done before."

    The right PFC ("Ne") does not associate one object with another object. Instead, it changes the shape of an object, which is then recognized by the temporal lobe and/or the parietal lobe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workin...ng_information

    -----

    The right PFC/Se can mentally rotate a bowl (on a table) 180 degrees and transform it into a completely different object (a simple drum) or a new object.

    The right PFC/Si ("Ni"), on the other hand, only deals with patterns (not structures/spatial relations) so a bowl can be mentally moved to the floor, but it is still a bowl and an interaction between a person and the bowl is the same. However, if the bowl is mentally moved from the table to the floor, then the interaction is changed. But then it is processed by the right PFC/Se instead.
    Last edited by Petter; 03-22-2020 at 07:07 AM.

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    Another way of looking at it is that there are two kinds of logic and two kinds of Intuition/imagination (left and right hemispheres). So the right PFC deals with categorization/classification. (Logic is a comparison: it sees similarities and differences, and extracts information/draws conclusions).

    Both logic and Intuition use PFC/working memory.

    America <---> track ..... 'America' is mentally moved to 'track'... and there is a similarity: an 'a' is used in both words ... This is logic/categorization (right PFC left PFC).

    Amtrak ..... 'Am' (in 'America') is mentally moved to 'track' ... This is Intuition/imagination (left PFC).


    brain1.jpg

    brain2.jpg


    These four processes are fed by either Se or Si, so there are eight processes in total.

    -----

    Is categorization always processed in the right hemisphere? No, the right PFC/Se is just the most obvious one. I actually think there are four kinds of categorization and four kinds of "formal logic" (2 Se and 2 Si). In the former case, the similarity is not obvious but the conclusion is (often) obvious. In the latter case, the similarity is (often) obvious but the conclusion is not obvious.
    Last edited by Petter; 03-21-2020 at 10:36 AM.

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    Si and Fe are definitely related to DMN.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_mode_network


    Remembering the past and thinking about the future

    Remembering the past: Recalling events that happened in the past
    Imagining the future: Envisioning events that might happen in the future
    Episodic memory: Detailed memory related to specific events in time
    Story comprehension: Understanding and remembering a narrative


    Thinking about others

    Theory of mind: Thinking about the thoughts of others and what they might or might not know
    Emotions of other: Understanding the emotions of other people and empathizing with their feelings
    Moral reasoning: Determining just and unjust result of an action
    Social evaluations: Good-bad attitude judgments about social concepts
    Social categories: Reflecting on important social characteristics and status of a group


    "Though the DMN was originally noticed to be deactivated in certain goal-oriented tasks and is sometimes referred to as the task-negative network, it can be active in other goal-oriented tasks such as social working memory or autobiographical tasks."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    There could be a connection between the functions and the basic emotions.


    Se- maximize anger, minimize fear

    Se+ minimize not anger, maximize not fear


    Si+ maximize anticipation, minimize surprise

    Si- minimize not anticipation, maximize not surprise (tradition, custom...)


    Fi- maximize trust, minimize disgust

    Fi+ minimize not trust (i.e. distrust), maximize not disgust


    Fe+ maximize joy, minimize sadness

    Fe- minimize not joy, maximize not sadness

    https://positivepsychology.com/negative-emotions/

    Cambria, Livingstone, and Hussain (2011) took Plutchik’s wheel to another level and developed ‘The Hourglass of Emotions’. In their book, they built on Plutchik’s eight basic emotions and broke them down into four dimensions: sensitivity, attention, pleasantness, and aptitude. They also made distinctions between which of the emotions were positive (joy, trust, anger, and anticipation) or negative (disgust, sadness, fear, and surprise).



    Se- anger ********************, fear *******************

    Se+ anger ***, fear ***



    Si+ anticipation ********************, surprise *******************

    Si- anticipation ***, surprise ***



    Fi- trust ********************, disgust ********************

    Fi+ trust ***, disgust ***



    Fe+ joy ********************, sadness ********************

    Fe- joy ***, sadness ***


    -----


    Si+ tries to predict an outcome. If he (or she) is right, then anticipation (or interest) motivates him to continue using the same method etc. If he is wrong, then surprise (or distraction) motivates him to stop using the same method etc.

    Si+ and Si- are two different strategies for survival.
    Last edited by Petter; 03-30-2020 at 07:09 AM.

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    It is possible that Fe uses mirror neurons as well. So Fe recognizes patterns from another person's point of view (Fe in post 174 could be incorrect), and recognizes himself/herself from outside.

    -----

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror...Theory_of_mind

    In Philosophy of mind, mirror neurons have become the primary rallying call of simulation theorists concerning our "theory of mind." "Theory of mind" refers to our ability to infer another person's mental state (i.e., beliefs and desires) from experiences or their behaviour.

    There are several competing models which attempt to account for our theory of mind; the most notable in relation to mirror neurons is simulation theory. According to simulation theory, theory of mind is available because we subconsciously empathize with the person we're observing and, accounting for relevant differences, imagine what we would desire and believe in that scenario. Mirror neurons have been interpreted as the mechanism by which we simulate others in order to better understand them, and therefore their discovery has been taken by some as a validation of simulation theory (which appeared a decade before the discovery of mirror neurons). More recently, Theory of Mind and Simulation have been seen as complementary systems, with different developmental time courses.

    At the neuronal-level, in a 2015 study by Keren Haroush and Ziv Williams using jointly interacting primates performing an iterated prisoner's dilemma game, the authors identified neurons in the anterior cingulate cortex that selectively predicted an opponent's yet unknown decisions or covert state of mind. These "other-predictive neurons" differentiated between self and other decisions and were uniquely sensitive to social context, but they did not encode the opponent's observed actions or receipt of reward. These cingulate cells may therefore importantly complement the function of mirror neurons by providing additional information about other social agents that is not immediately observable or known.

    -----

    I think Fe and Fi have to include "cooperation with oneself" and "negative cooperation" (Machiavellian thinking etc).

    -----

    Si interprets the meaning of visual stimuli and establishes object/pattern recognition. It forms new memories and recall memories.

    Si recognizes a new car (or a friend). Fe processes a relation between a person (including himself/herself) and a new car.

    Joy motivates a person to gain resources (i.e. useful objects and subjects, including knowledge) and form positive memories.
    Last edited by Petter; 03-28-2020 at 11:12 AM.

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    Se perceives/simulates an interaction between a person (i.e. himself/herself) and objects. It is directly related to the premotor cortex and the parietal lobe.

    Fi uses mirror neurons so that a person can experience another person's interaction with objects. This is why SEEs are excellent imitators and IEEs see potential in others.

    Fi also reflects upon one's own interactions.

    mirror neurons.jpg

    Trust motivates him/her to continue using safe objects/products and making friends.
    Last edited by Petter; 03-29-2020 at 12:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post

    Si+ tries to predict an outcome. If he (or she) is right, then anticipation (or interest) motivates him to continue using the same method etc. If he is wrong, then surprise (or distraction) motivates him to stop using the same method etc.
    This is a better explanation:

    If he (or she) is on the right track, then anticipation (or interest) motivates him to continue using the same method.

    If he is right, then a lack of anticipation (or interest) stops him from using this method.

    If he is on the wrong track, then surprise (or distraction) motivates him to start using a different method.

    If he is wrong, then a lack of surprise (or distraction) stops him from using any method.

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    https://introvertdear.com/news/intro...ng-to-science/

    Another difference between introverts and extroverts has to do with our nervous systems. Everyone’s nervous system has two “sides” — the sympathetic side, which triggers the “fight, fright, or flight” response, and the parasympathetic side, which is responsible for “rest and digest” mode.

    In other words, the sympathetic side is like hitting the gas pedal, while the parasympathetic side is like slamming on the brakes.

    When your sympathetic system is activated, your body gears up for action. Adrenaline is released, glucose energizes muscles, and oxygen increases. Areas of your brain that control careful, measured thinking are turned off, although dopamine increases alertness in the back of your brain.

    On the other hand, when you engage the parasympathetic side, your muscles relax, energy is stored like a squirrel preparing for winter, and food is metabolized. Acetylcholine increases alertness and blood flow to the front of your brain.

    To be clear, extroverts and introverts use both sides of their nervous systems at different times. But which side do we introverts generally prefer? You’ve probably already guessed: According to Dr. Laney, we prefer the parasympathetic side, which slows and calms us.

    Ever wonder why, as an introvert, you are prone to overthinking? It may have to do with how we process stimuli differently than extroverts.

    When information from the outside world — like someone’s voice or images on a computer screen — enters an extrovert’s brain, it travels a shorter pathway, Laney theorizes. It passes through “quick response” areas of the brain where taste, touch, sight, and sound are processed.

    [...]

    If Laney’s theory is correct, this means introverts process information more thoroughly than extroverts do. No wonder it can take us longer to put our thoughts into words, react, or make decisions!

    -----

    This is a definition of extraversion/introversion.

    Extroverts make fast decisions but they can be imprecise. Introverts make slow decisions but they are usually precise.

    -----

    This also explains why there are no ambiverts, since we are either in the extroverted mode or in the introverted mode.

    I also think everybody has a preferred side.
    Last edited by Petter; 03-30-2020 at 08:18 AM.

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    Both Fe and Fi see a person from "outside": person --> person (including himself/herself) --> objects. So these functions are about joy/sadness and trust/disgust. Si identifies a pattern/situation (e.g. someone's economic situation), and Fe relates it to a person.

    Why is Se only about anger and fear? Because Se interacts directly with objects (person --> objects), so it cannot be about joy/sadness and trust/disgust. For example, a person cannot think solely about a new car and feel joy. And Se does not know what a specific object/pattern/situation is (i.e. the meaning of a situation), so it is pointless to anticipate a situation. Se: an apple and an orange are (almost) identical objects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post

    Si+ anticipation ********************, surprise *******************

    Si- anticipation ***, surprise ***


    Si+ tries to predict an outcome.
    1) the more certain a person is about a prediction, the more surprised he (or she) will be when it fails

    2) the more new situations, the more unexpected situations
    Last edited by Petter; 04-03-2020 at 05:14 PM.

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    Petter Piper pet a peck of pickled pets.
    A peck of pickled pets Petter Piper pet.
    If Petter Piper pet a peck of pickled pets,
    Where's the peck of pickled pets that Petter Piper pet?

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    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...rotransmitters

    https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Moti...ube_of_emotion

    "The only emotion in the model that is not shown to have an influence by these neurotransmitters is shame/humiliation. According to Lövheim (2012), this emotion is where the individual feels defeated and unworthy and that this makes it clear, when remembering what each axis represents, that this is where this emotion belongs."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance

    "Acceptance in human psychology is a person's assent to the reality of a situation, recognizing a process or condition (often a negative or uncomfortable situation) without attempting to change it or protest it."

    -----

    It is possible that acceptance (or trust) fits even better than shame/humiliation.

    -----

    "Recent evidence in support of the idea of basic emotions has also been gathered from brain imaging studies and investigations of autonomic responses, demonstrating unique patterns of activation associated with certain emotions."
    Last edited by Petter; 04-06-2020 at 11:14 AM.

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    https://theconversation.com/anger-ag...fference-82918

    "Anger is an emotion that motivates and energises us to act."



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin


    "Pharmacological manipulation suggests that serotonergic activity increases with motor activity while firing rates of serotonergic neurons increase with intense visual stimuli."



    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/....a0001401.pub2

    "Noradrenaline is the main neurotransmitter of the sympathetic nerves in the cardiovascular system."

    "Adrenaline responses to stressors are more closely linked to responses of the hypothalamic‐pituitary‐adrenocortical system than of the sympathetic nervous system."


    -----


    Surprise is probably a special case of distraction (or confusion), and disgust is probably a special case of dislike/loathing.

    Love (and like) could be a more intense version of acceptance. But Plutchik thought love was a combination of acceptance/trust and joy.


    -----


    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_and_jealousy

    "Similarly, Ekman differentiates love from basic emotion based on the fact that there is no facial expression for love (a main criterion of basic emotions)"


    -----


    Se: a person interacts with objects <--> anger/fear

    Fi: a person --> (a person interacts with objects <--> anger/fear) <--> acceptance/disgust
    Last edited by Petter; 04-13-2020 at 11:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post


    LIE and ILI

    Si+ (Fe+) // Se+ (Fi+) ... strong (ego)

    Se- (Fi-) // Si- (Fe-) ... weak
    ________________

    Fi+ (Se+) // Fe+ (Si+) ... strong (super-ego)

    Fe- (Si-) // Fi- (Se-) ... weak



    OR



    LIE and ILI

    Si+ (Se-) // Fe+ (Fi-) ... strong (ego)

    Se- (Si+) // Fi- (Fe+) ... weak
    _________________

    Fi+ (Fe-) // Se+ (Si-) ... strong (super-ego)

    Fe- (Fi+) // Si- (Se+) ... weak

    LIE and ILI

    Si+ (Fe+) // Se- (Fi-) ... ego, preferred

    Fe+ (Si+) // Fi- (Se-) ... not preferred
    _________________

    Fi+ (Se+) // Fe- (Si-) ... super-ego, preferred

    Se+ (Fi+) // Si- (Fe-) ... not preferred



    This is my current view on the model. Si- (Fe-) is the complete opposite of Si+ (Fe+) so it should be in the weakest position (or the least preferred position), and a childlike Fi- (Se-) should be counterbalanced by a mature Fi+ (Se+). Also, Intuition/imagination is added to the functions so the whole type is intuitive.

    "However, because dorsal and ventral visual regions are heavily interconnected, it is difficult to tell in healthy subjects whether information is processed along the dorsal stream only, or whether it is fed to parietal cortex via ventral visual regions."

    This means that Si (Se) // ... or Si // Se is correct. We need both Si and Se: Si identifies an object and Se knows the position of an object.

    Se supports Si most of the time, but it can lead. As a leading function it seems weak/unsophisticated.

    -----

    Si and Se are based on the ventral and dorsal streams, but I am still considering large-scale brain networks (DMN, FPN...).

    -----

    The difference between Si+ (Fe+) and Fe+ (Si+) is that the former can easily ignore Fe+. It is possible that ILI can't use Fe+ (Si+) at all.

    LIE and ILI

    Si+ (Fe+) // Se- (Fi-) ... ego
    _________________

    Fi+ (Se+) // Fe- (Si-) ... super-ego

    OR

    Si+ (Fe+) // Se- (Fi-) ... ego, strong

    Se- (Fi-) // Si+ (Fe+) ... weak
    _________________

    Fi+ (Se+) // Fe- (Si-) ... super-ego, strong

    Fe- (Si-) // Fi+ (Se+) ... weak

    -----

    ILI's Se- (Fi-) // Si+ (Fe+) could be extroverted.
    Last edited by Petter; 04-18-2020 at 11:54 AM.

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    Si+ // Se+ vs. Si+ // Se-

    Si+ is not the same as Si+/-, since Si+ and Si- are two opposing strategies. Si+ is Si and Intuition/imagination.

    Si+ considers the facts but there is always an underlying hypothesis, theory etc.

    -----

    Si+ ... 'A' (a pattern) is kept in working memory and moved to 'B'. Se+ wants to change 'A' to a new/different pattern. This means that Se+ // Si+ does not work. (Ni cannot support Ne)

    The problem here is that Si+ adds patterns and Se+ changes patterns, but Se+ doesn't want more patterns and Si+ doesn't want new/unknown patterns.

    -----

    Se- // Si- ... This does not work. A football player cannot just react to things that have already happened... he must be able to anticipate situations on the field.

    Se- // Si- (strong) and Si+ // Se+ (weak) does not work either, since Se- still leads and must be supported by a strong function. And a person cannot use both Si- and Si+ in the main process.
    Last edited by Petter; 04-17-2020 at 04:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post

    The difference between Si+ (Fe+) and Fe+ (Si+) is that the former can easily ignore Fe+. It is possible that ILI can't use Fe+ (Si+) at all.
    Another way to put it is that ILI must be "forced" to use Fe+, and IEI must be "forced" not to use Fe+.


    LIE and ILI

    Si+ (Fe+) // Se- (Fi-) ... ego
    _________________

    Fi+ (Se+) // Fe- (Si-) ... super-ego

    OR

    Si+ (Fe+) // Se- (Fi-) ... ego, strong

    Se- (Fi-) // Si+ (Fe+) ... weak
    _________________

    Fi+ (Se+) // Fe- (Si-) ... super-ego, strong

    Fe- (Si-) // Fi+ (Se+) ... weak

    LIE and ILI

    Si+ (Fe+) // Se- (Fi-) ... ego
    _________________

    Se+ (Fi+) // Si- (Fe-) ... super-ego


    This is still possible, but it cannot explain why ILI has an obvious Ne- and LII has an obvious Fe+.


    ILI's Se- (Fi-) // Si+ (Fe+) could be extroverted.
    Talanov came to a similar conclusion in Model T.

    http://socionics.socionic.info/en/soc_06_6.html

    https://www.socioniko.net/ru/articles/talan-modelt.html

    нИв нЛн вСв вЭн

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    1) Logical reasoning is directly related to intelligence/IQ, so it must be excluded from personality type theory (or the Big Five).

    2) Logical reasoning is included in Se and Si.

    -----

    I am leaning towards 1) since logical reasoning does not change the quality of information.
    Last edited by Petter; 04-19-2020 at 08:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    Another way to put it is that ILI must be "forced" to use Fe+, and IEI must be "forced" not to use Fe+.
    It is possible that ILI's Fe+, Fi-, Se+ and Si- correspond to the vital functions.

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    "The second peculiarity: the contents of vital track functions is the result of individual period of psyche development, the period when we are individuals, when we are the hub of the universe, when everything rotates around us, around our interests, when we are still children and we are not interested in the society with all its demands. Socionists say: the vital track is the superblock of individual life activity. This means that vital track functions work for our individual needs and in the way that is customary and comfortable for us."

    "Some socionists suppose that the functioning of the superblock of personal life is unconscious. It is incorrect. Founders of psychoanalysis differently considered the concept of the 'unconscious'. The term 'preconscious' is appropriate to the content of processes, which take place in the superblock of personal life. In normal conditions, the preconscious processes function out of consciousness, automatically. But these processes can become conscious, if there is a need. In turn, functioning of the superblock of social life is obviously conscious."


    ILI

    Si+ (Se-) // Fe+ (Fi-) ... strong (ego)

    Se- (Si+) // Fi- (Fe+) ... weak ............................ extroverted (?)
    _________________

    Fi+ (Fe-) // Se+ (Si-) ... strong (super-ego) ......... extroverted (?)

    Fe- (Fi+) // Si- (Se+) ... weak


    -----

    I think Fe and Fi must be redefined here, so Fe includes Si and Fi includes Se.
    Last edited by Petter; 04-20-2020 at 06:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post

    Si+ ... 'A' (a pattern) is kept in working memory and moved to 'B'. Se+ wants to change 'A' to a new/different pattern. This means that Se+ // Si+ does not work. (Ni cannot support Ne)
    Se+ ... '/' or '-' or '\' or '/\' or '^' or '.' etc is kept in working memory and moved to a different position.

    Se deals with shapes/structures (or "geons") and perceives size, length, direction, angle etc. (Se prepares an interaction with an object ... it sees "matter in space")

    Si processes '/' and '-' and '\' (i.e. 'A') at the same time, so it cannot perceive size, length, direction, angle etc.

    Si+ adds or subtracts patterns, and Se+ adds or subtracts shapes/structures.
    Last edited by Petter; 04-25-2020 at 07:16 AM.

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