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Thread: Model D

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    I only use four functions: Se, Si, Fe and Fi. Why? Because PFS is dependent on the functions, but the functions can process information without PFS. Mark Zuckerberg has a leading Se and primary PFS.

    Se = dorsal stream (or FPN, fronto-parietal network)

    Si = ventral stream (or DMN, default mode network)

    PFS = prefrontal synthesis ... the conscious purposeful process of synthesizing novel mental images
    Is Mark Zuckerberg a dolphin too now?

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    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0194054

    Decoding rule search domain in the left inferior frontal gyrus

    On one side, some studies suggest that the fractionation along the left-right dimension is mostly domain-based. Evidence from neuroimaging studies shows that verbal information is preferentially processed in the left ventrolateral PFC (vlPFC), while spatial information is preferentially processed in the right vlPFC, suggesting that hemispheric specialization is domain-based.

    However, some recent models propose that the fractionation along the left-right dimension is process-based. Particularly interesting is the Goel’s model describing the reasoning abilities of humans. This model suggests that the left PFC has a role in reducing uncertainty by processing conceptual connections and logical relations among the available information, while the right PFC has a role in maintaining and even enhancing uncertainty by overcoming preconceptions based on prior beliefs and therefore allowing us to explore a wider range of possible solutions. These cognitive mechanisms are particularly important for our inductive reasoning abilities. Indeed, inductive reasoning is a complex function that allows us to increase our understanding of the world by making predictions based on our previous knowledge. Although the complex set of computations underlying inductive reasoning is carried out in a large network of brain regions, a central role is played by the left PFC. In fact, this brain structure has been shown to be particularly sensitive to rule induction and rule checking. These studies support the hypothesis that hemispheric specialization is process-based rather than domain-based. Viewed together with the studies mentioned above, it seems that the organizing principles underlying the lateralization of executive functions are still unclear. To explore these principles, we employed an inductive reasoning task.

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    left vlPFC: abstract/known objects (language...)

    left dlPFC: abstract/known objects (numbers, triangles... <--> logical reasoning)

    right vlPFC: concrete/real objects (patterns, faces...)

    right dlPFC: concrete/real objects (geometric shapes <--> categorization)

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    https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics...frontal-cortex

    Frontal Lobe Controls Knowledge Encoding and Retrieval

    The VLPFC controls encoding of mappings between knowledge stored in posterior areas and decision processes in frontal areas and subsequent retrieval. The human lateral prefrontal cortex (PFC) is organized functionally along a gradient from abstract decision and action planning processes in more rostral parts (e.g., VLPFC) to increasingly more concrete response-related processes in more caudal parts (e.g., premotor cortex (PM)). This prefrontal system maintains patterns of activity for various types of information (e.g., linguistic, visuospatial, object, rules) in functionally distinct neural populations. Each influences (controls) other areas to accomplish a mental or overt action. For example, to decide the category of a visual object, dorsolateral PFC (DLPFC) and PM accumulate and compare visual evidence obtained from the occipitotemporal cortex to compute a decision according to a rule that determines the choice, which involves more rostral frontopolar (BA 10) areas. In the parietal lobe, the intraparietal sulcus (IPS) also accumulates evidence, consistent with its strong bidirectional connections with some decision-making regions. The VLPFC has an important role in disambiguating knowledge, as when multiple interpretations of the input result from initial processing (e.g., ambiguous figures, impoverished percepts, multiple alternative meanings or knowledge types are competing), and it interacts reciprocally with DLPFC and PM to recruit working memory resources to resolve uncertainty.

    BA 10 interacts with both DLPFC (Se) and VLPFC (Si), so Myers-Briggs type theory and Socionics Model A are inaccurate.
    Last edited by Petter; 11-19-2020 at 12:51 PM.

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    A)

    Mark Zuckerberg: introverted, a planner/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Se ... logical subtype

    Max Tegmark: introverted, a planner/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Se ... intuitive subtype

    B)

    Mark Zuckerberg: introverted, Se --> a planner/conscientious ... Si --> not a planner/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Si ... logical subtype

    Max Tegmark: introverted, Se --> a planner/conscientious ... Si --> not a planner/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Si ... intuitive subtype

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    logical vs. intuitive

    A) left hemisphere vs. right hemisphere

    B) comparison vs. creativity
    Last edited by Petter; 11-23-2020 at 02:23 AM.

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    B)

    Max Tegmark: introverted, Se --> a planner/conscientious ... Si --> not a planner/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Si ... intuitive subtype
    Magnus Carlsen: introverted, Se --> not a planner/conscientious ... Si --> a planner/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Si ... intuitive subtype

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    vlPFC ... ambiguity, imagination (episodic future thinking...)

    dlPFC ... comparison (logic), analogy (metaphor and categorization)

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    vlPFC: object 1 <--> object 2

    dlPFC: geometric shape 1 <--> geometric shape 2

    -----

    dlPFC is probably dependent on vlPFC.

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    dlPFC is probably dependent on vlPFC.
    ... or dlPFC is dependent on the ventral stream (Si)

    object 1 --> geometric shape 1 <--> geometric shape 2 <-- object 2

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    C)

    Max Tegmark: introverted, Se --> a planner/conscientious ... Si --> a planner/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Si ... intuitive subtype

    Magnus Carlsen: introverted, Se --> not a planner/conscientious ... Si --> a planner/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Si ... intuitive subtype



    D)

    Max Tegmark: introverted, Se --> a planner/conscientious ... Si --> a planner/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Se ... intuitive subtype

    Seth Lloyd: introverted, Se --> a planner/conscientious ... Si --> not a planner/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Se ... intuitive subtype

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    PFS / LPFC

    1. similarities and differences (comparisons)

    2. creativity



    DLPFC

    1. logical reasoning (mathematical), analogy, metaphor, categorization

    2. creativity (art, craft, engineering...)



    VLPFC

    1. logical reasoning (verbal), ambiguity, risk assessment, decision-making

    2. imagination (episodic future thinking,
    scenario thinking, the Minotaur...)

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    dlPFC is dependent on the ventral stream (Si)

    object 1 --> geometric shape 1 <--> geometric shape 2 <-- object 2
    ... and vlPFC is dependent on the dorsal stream (Se)

    the first object's position in space --> object 1 <--> object 2 <-- the second object's position in space

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    Magnus Carlsen: introverted, a planner/conscientious, primary PFS, a leading Si ... intuitive subtype
    "the strategist" probably uses the right VLPFC a lot.

    brain map INTJ.gif

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    A) ... introvert, primary PFS


    mathematician: not a planner, leading Se, intuitive

    computer/electrical engineer: not a planner, leading Se, logical

    ? (Tina Fey): not a planner, leading Si, intuitive

    computer specialist/gamer: not a planner, leading Si, logical

    physicist (Roger Penrose, Max Tegmark): a planner, leading Se, intuitive

    programmer (Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg): a planner, leading Se, logical

    chess player/politician: a planner, leading Si, intuitive

    lawyer: a planner, leading Si, logical

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    physicist (Roger Penrose, Max Tegmark): a planner, leading Se, intuitive
    I now think causal reasoning is processed by VLPFC and DLPFC, so "the physicist" can have a leading Se.

    Why is "the physicist" a planner? Because physics requires a lot of scenario thinking, sequential reasoning and decision-making (which are processed by BA 10).

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    ? (Tina Fey): not a planner, leading Si, intuitive
    This is probably Viktor Gulenko's type.

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIRYT5qk03U

    military personnel: extroverted, planners/conscientious, secondary PFS, a leading Se

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=binIHBHrBcU (Tim Peake on How to Become an Astronaut | This Morning)

    I think most pilots are this type. Sequential reasoning, decision-making and conscientiousness are essential for pilots.

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    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3572161/

    "Our findings provide a novel strong evidence for a specific involvement of right frontopolar cortex in visual-spatial prospective memory. In the context of previous data providing evidence for left BA 10 involvement in verbal prospective memory, our results also suggest material-specific lateralization of prospective memory processes in BA 10."

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    https://sites.oxy.edu/linden/cogsci3...sequential.htm

    Temporal-sequential ordering (BA 10) is related to causal reasoning.

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    https://sites.oxy.edu/linden/cogsci3...sequential.htm

    Temporal-sequential ordering (BA 10) is related to causal reasoning.
    This is why "the physicist" is a planner.

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYfpSAxGakI (The Dehn Invariant - Numberphile)

    Daniel Litt's type is "the ​mathematician".

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    Michael Penn's type is "the physicist" (see post 296) but he is a mathematician who specializes in abstract algebra (i.e. pure mathematics). There is a connection to physics, though: "Along the way he completed and published extensive research on vertex operator algebras, an algebraic version of what physicists study in string theory".

    I think very few "physicists" are number theorists etc.

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-pKPqQZIBs (Michael Penn ... Real Analysis | Motivating uniform convergence)

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    A) ... introvert, primary PFS

    lawyer: a planner, leading Si, logical
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6uwTrWsOe0 (Faculty of Science Utrecht University ... Master's in Experimental Physics)

    Most experimental physicists are probably this type.

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhnSzwXvGfc (CNBC Make It ... Bill Gates Wasn't Worried About Burnout In 1984 – Here's Why)

    Michael Penn and Mark Zuckerberg are quite similar, and Bill Gates is/was perhaps more entrepreneurial-minded than data-driven, so it is possible that "the programmer" and "the (theoretical) physicist" are the same type.

    Then "the experimental physicist" could have a leading Se.

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    A) ... introvert, primary PFS

    computer/electrical engineer: not a planner, leading Se, logical
    Linus Torvalds is most likely this type.

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    A) ... introvert, primary PFS

    computer specialist/gamer: not a planner, leading Si, logical
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpXF...audzVY&index=4 (The 8-Bit Guy ... Commodore History Part 3 - The Commodore 64 (complete))

    The 8-Bit Guy is this type.

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiJxycvvy1c (UKY Engineering ... Electrical & Computer Engineering - University of Kentucky)

    "the computer engineer"

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    logical vs. intuitive

    A) left hemisphere vs. right hemisphere

    B) comparison vs. creativity
    I think the logical type is analytical and the intuitive type is synthetical, and high-level programming is mainly about creativity, so my current view is that "the programmer" and "the theoretical physicist" are the same type.

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    I think the logical type is analytical and the intuitive type is synthetical, and high-level programming is mainly about creativity, so my current view is that "the programmer" and "the theoretical physicist" are the same type.
    Another way of looking at it is that "the programmer"/"the theoretical physicist" is creative with mathematical objects (geometric shapes etc), "the chess player" is creative with objects, "the lawyer" is creative with words and the "the experimental physicist" is creative with (mathematical) data.

    brain1.jpg

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    "the computer engineer" is creative with (mathematical) symbols.

    "the ​mathematician" is creative with real objects/geometric shapes.

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    There are many different kinds of programming so "the programmer" is probably not a good name. For example, video game programming can attract an intuitive type with a leading Si.

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xQ4ePN79-M (Numberphile2 ... Nash Embedding Theorem - Numberphile)

    John Nash's and Edward Crane's type is "the theoretical physicist".

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjVDqfUhXOY (Numberphile ... Billionaire Mathematician - Numberphile)

    Jim Simons' type is probably the extroverted version of "the theoretical physicist".

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    A)

    Carlo Rovelli, Sean Carroll, Max Tegmark: introvert, a planner, primary PFS, leading Se, the right hemisphere, intuitive (creativity)

    John Nash, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg: introvert, a planner, primary PFS, leading Se, the right hemisphere, logical (comparison)

    ------

    There could be two subtypes of "the theoretical physicist".

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    A)

    Carlo Rovelli, Sean Carroll, Max Tegmark: introvert, a planner, primary PFS, leading Se, the right hemisphere, intuitive (creativity)

    John Nash, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg: introvert, a planner, primary PFS, leading Se, the right hemisphere, logical (comparison)

    ------

    There could be two subtypes of "the theoretical physicist".
    This would explain the difference between the theoretical physicist and the (applied) mathematician/the programmer.

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathem...etical_physics

    The term "mathematical physics" is sometimes used to denote research aimed at studying and solving problems in physics or thought experiments within a mathematically rigorous framework. In this sense, mathematical physics covers a very broad academic realm distinguished only by the blending of some mathematical aspect and physics theoretical aspect. Although related to theoretical physics, mathematical physics in this sense emphasizes the mathematical rigour of the similar type as found in mathematics.

    On the other hand, theoretical physics emphasizes the links to observations and experimental physics, which often requires theoretical physicists (and mathematical physicists in the more general sense) to use heuristic, intuitive, and approximate arguments. Such arguments are not considered rigorous by mathematicians, but that is changing over time.

    Such mathematical physicists primarily expand and elucidate physical theories. Because of the required level of mathematical rigour, these researchers often deal with questions that theoretical physicists have considered to be already solved. However, they can sometimes show that the previous solution was incomplete, incorrect, or simply too naïve. Issues about attempts to infer the second law of thermodynamics from statistical mechanics are examples. Other examples concern the subtleties involved with synchronisation procedures in special and general relativity (Sagnac effect and Einstein synchronisation).

    The effort to put physical theories on a mathematically rigorous footing not only developed physics but also has influenced developments of some mathematical areas. For example, the development of quantum mechanics and some aspects of functional analysis parallel each other in many ways. The mathematical study of quantum mechanics, quantum field theory, and quantum statistical mechanics has motivated results in operator algebras. The attempt to construct a rigorous mathematical formulation of quantum field theory has also brought about some progress in fields such as representation theory.

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    http://www.sicotests.com/psyarticle.asp?id=191

    The difference between the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex and the ventrolateral prefrontal cortex aligns to the disparity between the dorsal and ventral pathways in the cortex, according to O'Reilly (2010). The dorsal pathways, which is primarily underpinned by the parietal cortex, attempts to ascertain which responses should be executed, called the how system. The ventral pathway, which is significantly underpinned by the temporal cortex, attempts to characterize the features and attributes of the stimuli in the environment, sometimes called the what system.

    The dorsal pathways primarily terminate in the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex instead of the ventrolateral prefrontal cortex. The dorsolateral prefrontal cortex represents complex relationships that can be applied, such as mathematical rules or other algorithms, to convert stimuli into responses. The dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, for example, may be able to retain a rule that was imposed a few minutes ago onto the dorsal pathway to ensure responses apply to these constraints.

    The ventral pathways primarily terminate in the ventrolateral prefrontal cortex instead of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex. Presumably, which features or attributes of the environment should be processed depends on the goals of individuals. The ventrolateral prefrontal cortex represents these goals and thus affects which features or attributes are extracted. That is, the ventrolateral prefrontal cortex controls the ventral pathways.

    O'Reilly (2010) accumulated considerable evidence to support this contention. For example, in one study, when individuals needed to apply complex rules to decide which responses to execute, but the stimuli could be readily differentiated, the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex was activated significantly. In contrast, when individuals needed to differentiate stimuli that differ only on subtle semantic properties, demanding the what system, the ventrolateral prefrontal cortex was activated significantly (Nagel et al., 2008).

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    https://www.quora.com/What-part-of-y...mplex-thinking

    “What part of your brain is responsible for logic or complex thinking?”

    Short answer: all of it.

    Longer answer: it’s a symphony.

    First level answer: the cerebrum. The cerebellum is responsible for trained activities of the body, including speech, but it is directed by the cerebrum.

    Of course, the cerebrum consists of two hemispheres. The hemispheres each have a different construction of the world, and it is the synthesis of their views that makes us human.

    A quick summary of the hemispheres follows. Their full relation is much too complex to describe in a Quora answer. The right hemisphere, having access to the entire visual field, sees the larger picture and understands how the larger picture changes over time. You might say it understands the world from the top down. The left hemisphere, having access only to the right half of the foveal vision, sees the pieces of the world and how they are related. You might say it understands the world from the bottom up. No other animal that we know can hold both of those views and synthesize them.

    The left hemisphere’s bottom-up view provides a symbolic understanding of the world. Its symbols are held at various levels of detail, and it understands how those levels relate to one another. So it sees a chair as a seat, four legs, and a back. It is also aware of variations of this description, but if you ask most people to draw a chair, that is what you will get. The left’s symbolic understanding includes words to denote most of the symbols, along with rules for using words to construct sentences and larger utterances. The left sees time as a set of symbolic relations (“before”, “during”, “depends on”, etc.).

    The right hemisphere’s top-down view provides a holistic understanding of the world. It understands how all the pieces fit together, and how they work together as processes. It sees a chair as one or more images of chairs it has been exposed to, and it knows how chairs are used by people. If you ask some people to draw a chair, they will draw one of the many chairs they have seen, picking one to match the context of the question. The right side understands context and provides context to all our thoughts. The right side has words, and they are attached to experiences and processes. The right side senses and understands the flow of time and how context, experiences, and processes fit into the flow.

    Now for an answer to the question.

    The left hemisphere understands the symbology of logic and complex thinking. It knows all the parts (objects and rules) and can talk about them in the abstract. People with right hemisphere lesions can talk quite convincingly about abstract systems they have learned. Moreover, complex thoughts and processes are almost never understood in a vacuum; they are learned and shared and taught. The left hemisphere and its understanding are heavily involved in such discourse.

    The right hemisphere understands the context of logic and complex thinking. It knows what a logical inference means in a particular context, and it understands how various contexts can change the meaning. It understands how complex thinking and processes vary in time. It understands the context of discourse involving complex thoughts and processes.

    A discipline often considered a domain of logic and complex thoughts is mathematics. (I have a degree in math.) The left hemisphere understands the proper construction and manipulation of equations, but the right hemisphere knows what they mean. The left hemisphere can construct and understand the graph of a parabola, but the right hemisphere sees the parabola and intuits the sign of the derivative at each point. Going further into advanced analysis, the equations get more complicated and abstract, which the left hemisphere manages, but the meanings become ever more abstract, and the right hemisphere needs to follow those meanings or the equations are useless. As an extreme example, only the right hemisphere can understand and manipulate high dimensionality spaces, though the left hemisphere is needed to share that undertanding.

    History also requires cooperation of both hemispheres. The left hemisphere can understand all the events and static relations of a time period, but it is the right hemisphere that sees the patterns and understand the flow. And so it is with every discipline.

    The answer to the question depends on its context.

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