LII and ILI often work together but they are not similar. IEE and ILI usually don't work together but they are similar. LIE and ILE: not similar, but often work together .... LIE and LSI: similar, but usually don't work together.
Is Dario Nardi IEE or ILI?
Here's the typical IEI (i.e. lots of NiFe ... instead of NiFe+NeTi):
This IEI is more extroverted and less emotional:
What do you mean?Nope. You see why the first step is agreeing on the +/-?
For example, an LII would perhaps be equally interested in a new model, but he/she would not be interested in the minute details of people's behavior. Ni is about patterns and Ti is about logical structure. And LII's Intuition + Feeling is weak in Model D.
Is mathematical physicist Robbert Dijkgraaf an LII according to you?
"He is best known for his work on topological string theory and matrix models"
Yermak: "Some socionists suppose that the functioning of the superblock of personal life is unconscious. It is incorrect. Founders of psychoanalysis differently considered the concept of the 'unconscious'. The term 'preconscious' is appropriate to the content of processes, which take place in the superblock of personal life. In normal conditions, the preconscious processes function out of consciousness, automatically. But these processes can become conscious, if there is a need. In turn, functioning of the superblock of social life is obviously conscious."
There are lots of ILI mathematicians. They are using Ti- consciously every day. However...
..."It is difficult to plunge into thinking over the information of vital track information elements. You get pushed to the mental track as if a cork from a bottle and you begin to think over (process) only such information elements that correspond to mental track functions."
Last edited by Petter; 01-23-2018 at 08:30 AM.
Here are different theories about pattern recognition. We note that most of them include an analysis of the geometric shapes of the objects (or the parts of the objects). That is Ti. So Si/Ni (which recognizes patterns and objects) and Ti must be deeply connected.
Here are two different LSIs:
more extroverted (TeNi is obvious)
Consider Nicole Kidman's type. She is usually typed as either ESI or IEI, and she is a more extroverted subtype. Her Fe is very obvious, but it is not IEI's "controlled" Fe (=creative function). I think only ESI (FiSe and FeNi) makes sense.
Hi Petter, I watched the Nicole Kidman questions, I don't think she's ESI, their Fi is more restrained than that, and with Se, a tendency to judgemental side.
Instead, she's got a playfulness about her which I associate with Ne, when she was doing the voice impressions thing she had me in stitches. There was one part towards the start where she explained something with a very logical sensible reason, so I think she's LII.
I think Tina Fey is a more extroverted LII as a comparison. Her Fe is restrained.
Last edited by Petter; 01-26-2018 at 07:29 AM.
Bill Clinton is usually typed as SEE or IEE. "Allegations of womanising, extramarital affairs and abuse dogged Clinton over the course of his political life, culminating in his 1998 impeachment..." I think it is very unlikely that he is IEE (Fi+ is altruistic). However...
... "After graduating from Yale Law School, Clinton returned to Arkansas and became a law professor at the University of Arkansas"
SEE does not make any sense... unless we add SiTe as a second ego.
What is Tyra Banks' type? I don't think she is ESE, since Fe- is mellow and motherly... Jennifer Lopez is an ESE. Tyra has an enthusiastic Fe+ instead. But is she really an EIE?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwFYpEZg3KQ&t=174s (Would an EIE write this book?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modelland ("tacky, predictable and superficial")
"I had her down for a sensor. ESFJ or ESFP"
"Tyra: ESFP (come on, she is so SeFi)"
"Tyra seems ESFJ to me."
"Tyra Banks: ENFJ"
"But seriously it is almost funny how exactly she resembles the worst ESFJs in my life."
"She is a socionics SEE -- why Se instead of Fe sf?
The Fe Si and Si Fe types belong to the alpha quadra, and are more accepting and less prone to temperamental outbursts and judgment.
Gamma quadra Se Fi / Fi Se are not as mild-mannered."
Tyra Banks is most likely an ESI (FiSe and FeNi). I think there are very few EIE supermodels.
Alicia Vikander is even more difficult to type without using Model D. I seriously doubt SEE... she is way too emotional. Her Fe+ is very obvious.
"...trained as a ballet dancer at the Royal Swedish Ballet School in Stockholm and the School of American Ballet in New York."
Let's consider a more extroverted ILI. According to Model A ("ILI-Te"), he/she should be more similar to an LIE. So he/she should be tougher and more decisive. But we see the complete opposite. Yasser Seirawan (chess player) and Max Tegmark (physicist) are two good examples:
It is impossible to accentuate ILI's Te. Why? Because Te is a judging function, so it is "blind". It must be complemented by a perceiving function (Si or Ni).
For example: A=B and B=C (Si) .... Therefore A=C (Te). If we want to draw another conclusion, then we must recall (Si) A=B and B=C again.
However, it is possible to accentuate ILI's NiTe (i.e. a dominant subtype). Ni is dependent on Si as well, but in a different way. Si is just a background or a "scene". Ni makes this scene more interesting. In contrast, drawing many conclusions from the exact same information is pointless (A=B...).
Last edited by Petter; 02-12-2018 at 04:02 PM.
Here's the classic IEE.
These IEEs are more introverted, and Fi+ is less obvious.
Most people think Brian Cox and Michio Kaku are IEEs (including me). They are physicists, so NiTe as a second ego makes sense.
Maybe that explains why I, ILE, hate LSEs so much.
I think lack of imagination is what I find in LSE most disturbing. They are very poor researchers and usually come to me to do it for them, but what they ask specifically is "what is the standarized way to do something", then I need to do research on their problem, on possible solutions and see what is best fit. Anyway, they often come with some ridiculous nonsensical problems as well, but sometimes we can work this out.
Si+ (deals with "how" and "what" questions):
"An atom is the smallest constituent unit of ordinary matter that has the properties of a chemical element. Every solid, liquid, gas, and plasma is composed of neutral or ionized atoms. Atoms are very small; typical sizes are around 100 picometers (a ten-billionth of a meter, in the short scale).
Atoms are small enough that attempting to predict their behavior using classical physics – as if they were billiard balls, for example – gives noticeably incorrect predictions due to quantum effects. Through the development of physics, atomic models have incorporated quantum principles to better explain and predict the behavior etc."
Si- (deals with "why" questions):
"The United States became the world's leading industrial power at the turn of the 20th century...
...due to an outburst of entrepreneurship in the Northeast and Midwest and the arrival of millions of immigrant workers and farmers from Europe. The national railroad network was completed and large-scale mining and factories industrialized the Northeast and Midwest etc."
Ti+ (deals with "how" and "what" questions):
"Uniflow engines attempt to remedy the difficulties arising from the usual counterflow cycle where, during each stroke, the port and the cylinder walls will be cooled by the passing exhaust steam, whilst the hotter incoming admission steam will waste some of its energy in restoring working temperature. The aim of the uniflow is to remedy this defect and improve efficiency by providing an additional port uncovered by the piston at the end of each stroke making the steam flow only in one direction. By this means, the simple-expansion uniflow engine gives efficiency equivalent to that of classic compound systems with the added advantage of superior part-load performance, and comparable efficiency to turbines for smaller engines below one thousand horsepower. However, the thermal expansion gradient uniflow engines produce along the cylinder wall gives practical difficulties. The Quasiturbine is a uniflow rotary steam engine where steam intakes in hot areas, while exhausting in cold areas."
Ti- (deals with "why" questions):
"As pointed out in the introduction, if c denotes the length of the hypotenuse and a and b denote the lengths of the other two sides, the Pythagorean theorem can be expressed as the Pythagorean equation:"
a2 + b2 = c2 .... but why? ... see attached image.
"Zone of self-criticism, self-doubt, guilt, and self-perfection. What you think about when things go wrong."
"failure, incompetence, and oversensitivity cause low self-esteem, complexes, and psychosomatic disorders"
"The Super-Ego functions are the source of much self-consciousness. When among strangers or critical onlookers, people tend to suddenly become aware of the possible inadequacy of their Super-Ego functions and often respond in one of two ways: (1) demonstratively act through these functions to create an illusion of confidence, or (2) demonstratively state their complete incompetency or rejection of these areas."
I agree wholeheartedly with these descriptions of the weak and conscious functions. But ILE / ENTp (or ENTP) is actually sensitive about Si- (facts etc. ... as well as Se+), which is described in Naomi Quenk's book "Was That Really Me?".
'Extraverted Intuitive types report varying degrees of concern about whether others see them as having substance, stability, and depth. They can therefore overdo attention to facts or be somewhat defensive about their knowledge and use of facts and details.'
'An ENTP lawyer acknowledged that she often feels unprepared with data to support her legal arguments, so she makes sure she has at least a few facts she can bring forth at appropriate moments to convince others of her thoroughness. '
'Less mature Extraverted Intuitive types may sometimes present themselves as “experts” about some factual area, eager to educate others about it. This can prove embarrassing if they try to impress a true authority in a particular field. An ENTP at a basic training session for volunteer firefighter complained that the level of information being presented was “too elementary for someone of my level of knowledge and experience. After all,” he explained, “I’ve already witnessed a forest fire and helped put out a couple of brush fires!” '
'In mildly stressful or fatiguing situations, an uneasiness about facts comes out in projected form as a pickiness and obsessiveness about what would otherwise be judged by the Extraverted Intuitive type to be irrelevant detail. Often there are irritated complaints about others’ failure to attend to “important” details like typos, misplaced footnotes, motel beds that are too soft or too hard, or fussiness about food. One ENTP was surprised to learn from his wife that every time they discussed household finances, he would ask the same questions about their insurance policies—using exactly the same tone of voice.'
'An ENTP said that sometimes the details involved in a major project overwhelm her so much that she slips into an obsessive focus on how much time is left to work on the project: “I get it down to minutes and keep repeating the time frame over and over.” '
There is a difference between Si+ and Si-, though.
Si+ ... are these facts/details accurate?
Si- ... are these facts/details relevant?
'Some Extraverted Intuitive types recall being sensitive about their factual knowledge even as children. An ENFP described an incident when he was about 9 years old.“My school class was doing a project on ponds and streams and the indigenous wildlife. I stated that a creature known as the great crested newt could be found in this habitat. My teacher denied the creature’s existence, and then I felt belittled in front of the class. I returned to school a few days later armed with reference books from the town library and copious notes and photographs to prove the creature’s existence. I felt vindicated and seldom went to the library to borrow similar books again.” '
'One ENFP was characteristically picky about making selections from a restaurant menu. He invariably requested some alteration in the standard fare, adding or deleting a vegetable, grilling rather than broiling, and so on. His companions at these events would be subjected to a lengthy explanation of his finely discriminating gourmet tastes.'
'An ENFP said, “I can become compulsive when I begin to bring order into my kitchen or when I’m balancing the bank statement. I’m generally pretty relaxed about order and usually have piles of books and stuff that needs to be returned to file cabinets.” '
These descriptions apply to ILI / INTp (or INTJ) as well.
primary functions: Ni+ Te- Si+ Fe- ....
secondary functions: Ne- Fi+ Se- Ti+ ....
primary functions: Ni- Fe+ Si- Te+ ....
secondary functions: Ne+ Ti- Se+ Fi- ....
'Introverted Intuitive types easily gloss over facts and details in their everyday behavior but can be hypersensitive about this. When they become aware that they have made a “Sensing” mistake, or an error of fact is pointed out to them, they are likely to become annoyed and defensive.
Like their Extraverted Intuitive counterparts, they may compensate for their uneasiness in this area by becoming expert in some highly specific area. This can sometimes resemble a fetish. An INFJ who had little interest in most aspects of housekeeping knew all the ingredients of different household detergents; an INTJ was pleased with his ability to identify any kind of cloud formation.'
This is actually about Si+ and Si-.
'INTJs and INFJs readily project their own distrust of the environment onto others. They may comment on other people’s failure to notice details or assume that everyone experiences the anxieties they experience when dealing with an unfamiliar environment. They may therefore be overly cautious in giving people directions and provide too many—often irrelevant—details. One INFJ instructed his 28-year-old son as he was about to head out on a long trip in the car, “And when you smoke, you use the ashtray.” ' (Si- or Se+)
'Discomfort with the environment can also be seen in an overconcern with keeping track of things. One INTJ reported having to check his pocket two or three times to be sure his keys were there. Introverted Intuitive types try very hard to avoid losing things or getting lost in unfamiliar surroundings. They can become disproportionately upset when their efforts fail, frequently blaming others for their own carelessness.' (Se-)
'In giving a friend directions to her new house, an INTJ detailed the following: Take Central Avenue to Fifth Street and turn right. Go two blocks to Smith Street and make a left at the next corner, Avenue M. Go three blocks and turn right into Mulberry. That’s my street. About halfway down the block you’ll see a blue house with a two-car garage and a “For Sale” sign on the lawn. Next door to that house is a small cottage with a peaked roof. My house has no address number on it, but it’s diagonally across from the blue house. . . . Oh, and did I mention that my house is the only two-story house on the block?' (Si+)
'For Introverted Intuitive types, relaxing their dominant and auxiliary functions may occur through such sensual pleasures as eating, exercising, and gardening. One INTJ especially enjoys and appreciates sunshine in spring, autumn, and winter. Another likes to “go somewhere beautiful—mountains, ocean, water.” ' (Si+)
'Introverted Intuitive types mention going for walks or drives and noticing interesting details, such as the shapes of houses, the designs on garage doors, the arrangements of trees and flower beds in parks. One INFJ described taking walks by himself and noticing how many different shades of green he could identify on a nature trail, or closing his eyes and trying to identify as many different sounds as he could.' (Si-)
'In effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types, the enjoyment of sensual pleasures is natural, spontaneous, and quite consistent with their focus on the reality of the immediate environment.
In Introverted Intuitive types in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, this quality takes the form of sensual excess rather than sensual pleasure. It is interesting that a number of INTJs and INFJs described themselves as becoming “self-centered” and “self-indulgent” when they are in the grip—a descriptor often projected onto well-functioning Extraverted Sensing types by INTJs and INFJs (and by other types as well).
An INFJ said, “I have to get away from reality. I do too much of something— one thing. I eat more or stop eating; I shop for useless things.” Another said, “I eat too much, spend too much, watch TV or read excessively to escape. I’m late for everything.” ' (Se+)
'Of the four dominant Introverted types, it is Introverted Intuitive types who most frequently mention “too much extraverting” as a common trigger for inferior function responses. They describe being provoked by such things as crowds; people overload; noisy, busy environments; feeling that their personal space is being invaded; and frequent interruptions. When faced with such provocations, they retreat inside themselves and become intolerant of intrusions by others. They either express irritation at people’s questions or do not respond at all to attempts to communicate with them.' (Se+ and Se-)
primary functions: Fi- Se+ Ti- Ne+ ....
secondary functions: Fe+ Ni- Te+ Si- ....
primary functions: Fi+ Ne- Ti+ Se- ....
secondary functions: Fe- Si+ Te- Ni+ ....
This is supported by Naomi's descriptions:
'As an INFP psychotherapist, I find that cleaning the house, organizing drawers, or alphabetizing spices can provide a relaxing and welcome break from seeing clients, theorizing, doing research, and writing.This gives my dominant Feeling and auxiliary Intuition a rest when they have been used particularly intensively. Another INFP engages her tertiary Sensing in her detailed, photorealistic drawings of objects and people, and many INFPs mention crafts as a hobby. An ISFP relaxes most successfully while doing the Sunday New York Times crossword puzzle. He enjoys being able to put the many facts he knows into the logical order of the English language and giving his tertiary Intuition free rein to fill in the gaps in the puzzle.'
'When one ISFP becomes especially irritated with her husband’s chronic indecision, she provides him with lengthy, logical accounts of his available choices, adopting a combative, lawyerlike tone. One INFP makes almost vicious attacks on people who fail to live up to his ethical standards. “One winter I found out the gas company had turned off service to my disabled neighbor, who couldn’t pay her bill. I flew into a rage, called the president of the company, and threatened to expose him to the newspapers. Even I was surprised at the language I used,” he said.'
'An ISFP finds it stressful to “work with people who are very focused on regulations and rules,” and another said, “I dislike strict deadlines and like to move at my own pace.” '
'An ISFP commented that she becomes “very aware that people at work are not following procedures and are making the same mistakes over and over again. But when I think about it later, I have to admit there are no more mistakes than usual.” '
'Introverted Feeling types may select hobbies that engage their Thinking function. One INFP thoroughly enjoys computer games that require logic and strategy. Another relaxes by analyzing companies for possible investment.'
Last edited by Petter; 03-21-2018 at 07:11 AM.
I am considering Model D mk4, which partially contradicts mk3.
primary functions: Ne- Fi+ Se- Ti+ // Ti- Ne+ Fi- Se+ NeFi SiFe // FeNi FiSe
secondary functions: Ni+ Te- Si+ Fe- // Fe+ Ni- Te+ Si- NiTe SeTi // TiNe TeSi
- FiSe "protects" or "controls" NeFi ... and TiNe "protects" or "controls" SeTi.
- Ti- and Ne+ are strong functions.
- All static functions work together.
- This model explains why many young IEEs like logic puzzles.
Last edited by Petter; 10-15-2018 at 02:54 PM.
OK. Second ego is something what Gulenko calls as "Mirage shift".
It is quite funny because I have noted that there are IEI's who kind of make very similar conclusions when fed certain nugget of information.
On top of that I have noted that I can kind of track future implications in social sphere [although on forefront of my mind it is bit muted]. It is like: "Do you really want to go there?" That is: If I'm not playing around for fun.
Measuring you right now
Winning is for losers
I think this could be accurate.
Ne- Fi+ ---> Fi- Se+ (fast, automatic) ---> Se- Ti+ ---> Ti- Ne+ (fast, automatic) ---> Ne- Fi+ etc
So far my own experience with this is that out of all my 3 other siblings I'm the apparently most similar with my IEI sister according to many but in the end how we applied ourselves is quite bit different.
Out of different shifts: benefit is person's own perception and does not really actualize correctly.
Last edited by COVID 007; 09-07-2018 at 07:09 PM.
Measuring you right now
Winning is for losers
IEE: NeFi SeTi ... Se- and Ti+ are about an object's position in space, but Ne- and Fi+ are not about an object's position in space. NeFi information seems to be irrelevant to SeTi. That is why I think FiSe and TiNe are needed (see post 108).
This is my current view on the functions:
"Introverted" functions process information which describes the objects/subjects. (object <--> background)
"Extroverted" functions process information about interactions between the objects/subjects. (object <--> object <--> background)
"Static" functions process information about the objects/subjects themselves.
"Dynamic" functions process information which is a symbolic representation of the objects/subjects (language, numbers etc.)
Last edited by Petter; 09-21-2018 at 06:53 AM.
"External" functions (S, T) process information about physical entities.
"Internal" functions (N, F) process information about relationships between physical entities.
Last edited by Petter; 09-21-2018 at 06:53 AM.
If there is a difference between social extraversion and cognitive extraversion, then I suggest this division:
SLE, SEE, ILE, IEE ... social extroverts and cognitive extroverts
LSE, ESE, LIE, EIE ... social extroverts and cognitive introverts
LSI, ESI, LII, EII ... social introverts and cognitive extroverts
SLI, SEI, ILI, IEI ... social introverts and cognitive introverts
This is my current view on the functions.
"Irrational" functions process information about physical entities.
"Rational" functions process information about relationships between physical entities.
"Static" functions process information about the actual objects/subjects.
"Dynamic" functions process information about the meaning of the objects/subjects. (language, numbers, other symbols)
"External" functions (S, T) process information which describes the objects/subjects.
"Internal" functions (N, F) process information which clarifies vague descriptions of the objects/subjects.
Your delineation between internal and external is faulty because because all information elements are descriptive; ST are both explicit, whilst NF are implicit.
SF is actually very similar to NT, except something isn't quite the same. If you actually have real life representatives of those types it'll become apparent that S do actually talk about ideas,... but something is a little different, whilst Fs actually reason with logic, but something is odd. The capacity to engage in emotions and form value judgements, is a separate criteria all together not quite connected to information processing.
The higher IQ INTX are likely to have a more intricate knowledge base and subsequent answers and rationale.
Rationals already start by creating solutions to a problem and their thinking is skewed by the confines of that solution - that's the linearity. This is something entirely different to what "irrationals" do corroborating all the information first before really making sense of it - that's the flexibility to problems they have, and causes of confusion in communication when the differing focus is highlighted.
Introverts add an extra layer of scope and perspective, instead of dealing with the prominent information as is.
N connects one object to another (new) object, so the context/meaning of the first object is changed. The purpose is to clarify vague descriptions of the first object.
A person says: "This food is delicious!" Another person tastes the food and disagrees. F adds an evaluation and clarifies this vague description of the food.
Ni could be "left brain Intuition". It creates new patterns of ideas and language.
"Together with BA44, BA45 comprises Broca's area, a region that is active in semantic tasks, such as semantic decision tasks (determining whether a word represents an abstract or a concrete entity) and generation tasks (generating a verb associated with a noun).
The precise role of BA45 in semantic tasks remains controversial. For some researchers, its role would be to subserve semantic retrieval or semantic working memory processes. Under this view, BA44 and BA45 would together guide recovery of semantic information and evaluate the recovered information with regard to the criterion appropriate to a given context. A slightly modified account of this view is that activation of BA45 is needed only under controlled semantic retrieval, when strong stimulus-stimulus associations are absent. For other researchers, BA45's role is not restricted to semantics per se, but to all activities that require task-relevant representations from among competing representations. Lesions of the BA45 lead to the characteristic findings of expressive aphasia in individuals who are left hemispheric dominant."
Ne could be "right brain Intuition". It creates new patterns of behavior, art, music, actions, designs etc.
The "External"/"Internal" dichotomy is somewhat problematic. An alternative approach is to define N, S, T and F separately, and then distinguish between "static" and "dynamic" functions.
N refers to "controlled semantic/object retrieval, when strong stimulus-stimulus associations are absent". N adds an object so the context is changed. This is about new or unclear situations.
S refers to all other perceptions. This is about our direct experience of the world.
T refers to evaluations of relationships between physical objects. This function is about preservation of energy and avoiding injuries etc.
F refers to feelings, which are evaluations of relationships between subjects (i.e. people or animals) and objects/other subjects. For example, the feeling of disgust prevents a person from eating a certain poisonous plant twice.
"Feelings are sparked by emotions and colored by the thoughts, memories, and images that have become subconsciously linked with that particular emotion for you." ... "Feelings are mental experiences of body states, which arise as the brain interprets emotions, themselves physical states arising from the body’s responses to external stimuli. (The order of such events is: I am threatened, experience fear, and feel horror.)"
"Static" functions (Se, Ne, Ti, Fi) process information about the actual objects/subjects.
"Dynamic" functions (Si, Ni, Te, Fe) process information which is a symbolic representation of the objects/subjects (language, numbers, other symbols)
Last edited by Petter; 10-03-2018 at 08:26 AM.