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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    It depends on the situation. It could be Te+ or Te-. Orders about specific things is Te+ . IEI's Te+ is a weak mental function in Model D.
    Specific things? If I tell someone to give me the glass of water, it will be Te+ and if I explain the steps then it will be Ti+? What about Te- then? Which kinds of orders require Te-? General orders? Give me examples.

    You can use the vital functions whenever you want as well. The problem is that you start thinking about Te- and 30 seconds (or perhaps a bit more) later you have automatically switched to Ti-, without you even noticing it.
    I see what you mean, and I can relate to the forgetting about Te- after few seconds or minutes. Maybe one can use the vital function if forced from the outside? (in an example of chess, because in this case one MUST use Ni+Te- considering that these two functions are required for strategizing and taking the best action)

    I think both the mental and vital functions can be used unconsciously. The Leading function could be an exception.
    Using mental functions unconsciously? How?

    Yes, you are describing a weak and unconscious Se-. ILI openly complains about immigrants, criminals...
    What about ILI's 1D Se+? How it differs from IEI's 2D Se+? Give me examples. Also, in your Model D, an LII would have 4D Se+, but 1D Se-? They would know which person can benefit them, but they have zero skills when it comes to pushing people, right?

    Hmm? SLEs giving orders? My experience is different. I think they influence people either directly via physical dominance or indirectly via "salesman tactics".
    My point is that there is no special "force" that SLE uses. SLE is mostly in the here and now, so he/she will be automatically be dominant. When IEI is in "NiFe land" the SLE has seized an opportunity in the real/physical world.
    Yes, I meant they naturally use the aggressive tactics to get what they want, and live in here and now.

    That's 1D Te+. Te- is about the best/most efficient way when you are strategizing/visualizing (Ni+) something.
    So... you are saying IEIs are capable to strategize or know about the best/most efficient methods, but unable to follow through?

    This is too general. It could be other functions as well.
    Let's say I am advising my colleagues that they should study from xyz books in the given time as that will help them "outsmart" other colleagues. What functions would I be using?


    Can you explain this part a bit further?
    How are you calling Te- a 4D function for an IEI when the dimensionality is supposed to be applied to an isolated function?

    You: "your model is nothing but an alternative perspective to Model A"

    What do you mean by this?
    Model A doesn't have -+ signs, but dimensionality and consciousness/unconsciousness, if you map functions to Model A's position / blocks, you would get (for an IEI):

    4D: Ni- (ego), Fi+ (id)
    3D: Fe+ (ego) Ne- (id)
    2D: Si- (super-ego) Ti+ (super-id)
    1D: Te+ (super-ego) Se- (super-id)

    So, basically you further distributed the 1D-4D dimensionality to -+ signs, making it two Model As. Btw, are you sure that Ne+ is 4D and conscious, and Ne- is 3D and unconscious for an IEI? Can you give me real-life examples? In Model A, for example, it is assumed that Ignoring function is used along with Demonstrative, so Ne- belongs to super-id. Conscious here would mean able to use it constantly (and not for just a moment or "30 seconds" as you put it earlier). Ne+Ti- belongs to ego block, right? (this is why IEI can look very much like an LII or ILE)

    By "an alternative perspective", I mean that your Model doesn't necessarily contradicts Model A (similarly how Model G doesn't contradict it and seems to explain functions in a different manner... internalities, externatilies, etc.,) or am I wrong?

    How do you think my view differs from socionists' views.
    Because it seems to me that dimensionality was supposed to apply on isolated functions not the -+ signs formed through combination of functions, so here applying the dimensionality to -+ signs would only lead to confusion, for example, you haven't explained yet how Te- is 4D for an IEI... in comparison to which type? You said strategizing requires taking decisions, thus Te- would be used, but how that's the sign of 4D? How to quantify it? For example, I can see how Fe is 4D for an SEE and 1D for an ILI who are unable to make facial expressions in a normative way. How +Fe is 4D for an ILI? If it's just a matter of strategizing about social issues, then it doesn't make sense to call Fe+ 4D at all, just say that Ni- (or Ni+) is 4D. It just seems to me you arbitrary applied this dimensionality to functions in order to either create the symmetry or just to match the standard.

    How do you describe a "valued" function?
    A "valued" function would be the one we can use with psychological comfort and has positive effects on our psyche, so the weak valued functions, even if they are hard to use on our own (unless we put so much efforts), if supplied from the outside, we feel good about it.


    Id functions are private and they are used sporadically. IEI can play chess just as well as ILI can strategize about social relations. However, IEI's Ni+ is one of the Ignoring functions.
    Ni+ is ignoring because it's unconscious (or subconscious)? Did Ni+ get the + sign because it is formed by the combination of NiTe?

    Both are about logical deduction. Te- makes decisions about prior Ni+ thoughts. Come up with a scenario at work/in school where you try to "outsmart" your colleagues. Those decisions will be sophisticated (3D/4D).
    "Scenario" seems to be coming from Ni+. Also, Te- is used with Ni+, right? So, when an IEI is playing the chess, he is basically relying on the vital functions?
    Last edited by seriousguy; 07-30-2016 at 01:00 AM.

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