SEE/ESFp and ILI/INTp Duality? (Aggressor-Victim)

[Joy]

The second version sounds more accurate. SEEs are after all dealing with Fe-POLRs, so generally they will not come on too strongly. From what I observe, SEEs gently poke the ILI to see if he/she responds differently. Maybe the ILI has become friendlier, or has become more open... In which case the SEE gives it another shot if they are still interested. SEEs are very persistent though, even a tiny bit of progress is enough to sustain their interest. SEEs usually have strategies to exhaust for their ILI of choice to close the distance, as SEE is a strategic type. In my opinion their problem comes more from restraining themselves from just using all of the possible methods at once, since they know it will overwhelm the ILI.

It is also entirely possible for the SEE to lose interest/give up completely if the ILI dawdles too much, and the SEE thinks that no further progress can be made. In my case, my SEE s/o actually did stop asking me out about 9 months in because he could not see any other way forward. I was the one to ask him for exclusivity because I realized I greatly missed having him around (the whole aspect of duality not being noticed until your dual is not around... when he "gave up" we started becoming more like casual friends), and I was lucky he hadn't found a new person to be interested in and therefore was still open to the idea of being with me. On hindsight if I was more in touch with my feelings and feeling less down about myself, this probably would not have happened. I cringe when I think about it.

Thanks! <3 That's helpful. Knowledge of socionics kinda messes with my head a bit with this stuff. The rational seeming thing to do is just move on if someone tells you they're not interested, but socionics literature makes it sound like Se egos just harass the person they're interested in until they cave. It sounds not only unwise, unhealthy, and inconsiderate, but also downright ridiculous.

The way you explain it toooooootally makes sense though. (:

[Shiver]

Often when I run into an ILI I feel the angry inclination to beat the shit out of them. Which in fact means it is what they want, or else I wouldn't feel it.

Is this a joke? It seems too logically broken not to be a joke.

[End]

I really sympathize for the blue guy @Alstroemeria, he's definitely the Introvert of the pair shown. The last comic is especially cute, I'd... be rather OK with an SO with that attitude. Seems crazy in other contexts but that one seems more fully developed. The yellow figure doesn't come off as Yandere as the quote would suggest, it's like they've known each other for so long that he/she can get away with saying that without the possibility of tragic misunderstanding.

[Joy]

I think the comics are adorable and accurate. SEEs like to be rough/bossy to show affection. Obviously they're well aware of when it's appreciated vs not and know how to avoid injuring people. lol Also, the barnacle thing isn't for use on just anyone. Very few people would ever hear such sentiments. Much of it (such as the heartbeat thing) is half joking. The flower thing is a ridiculous example of a very real dynamic in which the SEE will put forth an extraordinary amount of effort for the person they're with and care tremendously about their partner's Fi preferences.

[Joy]

Update: Turns out I'm not polyamorous after all.

[End]

Update: Turns out I'm not polyamorous after all.

Most people aren't. I thank the "subconscious tripwire" as I like to term it for that fact. Evolution's a bitch, and in the end monogamy (at least in its serial form) is what's best from a Darwinian perspective. Thus, everyone gets super jelly and neurotic when they see their SO getting too chummy with people of the opposite sex who ain't them. I could wax philosophical for days as to why that's the case but I'll just leave it at that. Flirting with others of the opposite sex in front of the SO too heavily/frequently will damage their calm to the point where ya might get killed, so don't do it.

Polyamory and other such "free love" concepts sound nice and fine on paper, but human nature thwarts the sunshine and roses hippy worldview. People just don't work that way, and any attempt to make them work in ways that are unnatural will end badly. Look at Communism for a case in point.

[Joy]

I would never be with someone who I think might kill me.

[Jarno]

I would never be with someone who I think might kill me.

i might strangle you but not to death.

[Joy]

i might strangle you but not to death.

Um. no. wth?

[Jarno]

Um. no. wth?

just in a romantic way.

[Joy]

just in a romantic way.

1.) Breath play is a hard limit, 2.) I don't switch, and 3.) wtf, Jarno. lol :-/

[Chae]

For ILI-SEE dynamics, I recommend watching Britney Spears MVs - there always seems to be some ILI around.

Latest example, "Slumber Party" w/ distinct subdued Gamma colours:

[LuckyOne]

just in a romantic way.

A great example of why me and ILIs are a no no.

For ILI-SEE dynamics, I recommend watching Britney Spears MVs - there always seems to be some ILI around.

Latest example, "Slumber Party" w/ distinct subdued Gamma colours:

Britney is ESI.

[Jarno]

A great example of why me and ILIs are a no no.

what type are you, i cannot find it in your profile.

[LuckyOne]

what type are you, i cannot find it in your profile.

I'm not entirely sure yet. The thing is @Chae keeps on saying I'm a SEE and that I would love an ILI. I don't put much weight into this whole romantic pairings thing, but if I assume it to be right, then I can't be SEE.

[Dauphin]

Well, not everyone who is your dual is actually compatible with you. Do you know anyone in real life you think is an ILI? Initial negative feelings towards them can be dispelled when you come to know one who shares your interests, etc.

[LuckyOne]

Well, not everyone who is your dual is actually compatible with you. Do you know anyone in real life you think is an ILI? Initial negative feelings towards them can be dispelled when you come to know one who shares your interests, etc.

Yes, several. I never said I had negative feelings, just that I feel zero attraction towards the type. Never had a bad interaction with ILIs, because our exchanges were all very brief and entirely professional, and since there's no attraction, there's no reason to deepen the bond. The initiative have to come from the ILI anyway, because I don't initiate relations with people, in that sense I'm rather passive.

[Jarno]

Yes, several. I never said I had negative feelings, just that I feel zero attraction towards the type. Never had a bad interaction with ILIs, because our exchanges were all very brief and entirely professional, and since there's no attraction, there's no reason to deepen the bond. The initiative have to come from the ILI anyway, because I don't initiate relations with people, in that sense I'm rather passive.

well according to the descriptions, duality takes some time and seems rather ordinary at first, so it went according plan with the ili's.

i think my sentence was not really attractive to any type lol. However I wasn't serious, i just like to be provocative to get a bit of action in this joint.

I've seen quite some passive SEE, so nothing can't be ruled out. Hope you find out your type someday.

[LuckyOne]

well according to the descriptions, duality takes some time and seems rather ordinary at first, so it went according plan with the ili's.

i think my sentence was not really attractive to any type lol. However I wasn't serious, i just like to be provocative to get a bit of action in this joint.

I've seen quite some passive SEE, so nothing can't be ruled out. Hope you find out your type someday.

Yes it was extremely repelling to me, but I'm sure other types might find it amusing.

Thank you, I hope so too.

[Beautiful sky]

it's interesting isn't it that someone's fussiness is just a signal to the other that they are being noticed

[Bertrand]

In general it seems to be taken for granted that the ILI is slow to respond, but what about cases when the ILI is the pursuer? My whole life I've been socialized to go after what I want, and have ended up in relationships with SEI and SLIs. I always found myself attracted to what I now understand to be SEEs, but always wrote them off as superficial and shallow and always focused my efforts elsewhere. I think a lot of this had to do with my upbringing which basically subconsciously instilled certain unfounded assumptions about what makes a good mate. In other words, it actively worked against my natural instincts and led me down a blind alley (super ego relations, usually). Examining myself as I am now I see I took on a pseudo aggressor role in all my past relationships in order to make things happen. Now there's a SEE I desperately want to make things work with, and while she was initially attracted to me, its mostly all fallen apart and it just feels like the harder I try the worse it gets. I feel like we're actually fighting over nothing and that if we could just spend some time together it would become obvious how much we harmonize with one another, but it feels like she's doing everything she possibly can to throw up walls and prevent that from ever happening.

Do I just write it off and hope maybe in doing so it will either take care of itself (revert to a more natural dynamic)?-- Or worse case, come to nothing, but I stop wasting my effort? Either way it just sucks... I want some kind of closure but I feel like I'm out there on a rope and I can't do anything about it.

It also doesn't help that her prior fiance was likely also an ILI (never met him) but he died (!) in a freak occurrence; so maybe she on some level knows exactly what kind of potential we have but is terrified of being hurt again..?

[Rebelondeck]

A female ESFp friend gives me the impression of a rambunctious, curious puppy dog being barely contained on a leash held by her sober, pessimistic INTp spouse. What seems to hold them together is the leash which both seem to think is a necessity. Oh, and in this particular case, the puppy wants to hump everything in the park....

a.k.a. I/O

[Adam Strange]

In general it seems to be taken for granted that the ILI is slow to respond, but what about cases when the ILI is the pursuer? My whole life I've been socialized to go after what I want, and have ended up in relationships with SEI and SLIs. I always found myself attracted to what I now understand to be SEEs, but always wrote them off as superficial and shallow and always focused my efforts elsewhere. I think a lot of this had to do with my upbringing which basically subconsciously instilled certain unfounded assumptions about what makes a good mate. In other words, it actively worked against my natural instincts and led me down a blind alley (super ego relations, usually). Examining myself as I am now I see I took on a pseudo aggressor role in all my past relationships in order to make things happen. Now there's a SEE I desperately want to make things work with, and while she was initially attracted to me, its mostly all fallen apart and it just feels like the harder I try the worse it gets. I feel like we're actually fighting over nothing and that if we could just spend some time together it would become obvious how much we harmonize with one another, but it feels like she's doing everything she possibly can to throw up walls and prevent that from ever happening.

Do I just write it off and hope maybe in doing so it will either take care of itself (revert to a more natural dynamic)?-- Or worse case, come to nothing, but I stop wasting my effort? Either way it just sucks... I want some kind of closure but I feel like I'm out there on a rope and I can't do anything about it.

It also doesn't help that her prior fiance was likely also an ILI (never met him) but he died (!) in a freak occurrence; so maybe she on some level knows exactly what kind of potential we have but is terrified of being hurt again..?

This is really rare in an ILI, but it seems to me that you're delusional about this relationship. I'd move on.

Usually its the ILI who gives me this advice. Are you really, really sure you are ILI and not LIE? Because once again, what you wrote describes my life.
I mean, I could have written this: "My whole life I've been socialized to go after what I want, and have ended up in relationships with SEI and SLIs. I always found myself attracted to what I now understand to be SEEs, but always wrote them off as superficial and shallow and always focused my efforts elsewhere. I think a lot of this had to do with my upbringing which basically subconsciously instilled certain unfounded assumptions about what makes a good mate."

Substitute ESI for SEE and that's me.

[crazymaisy]

A female ESFp friend gives me the impression of a rambunctious, curious puppy dog being barely contained on a leash held by her sober, pessimistic INTp spouse. What seems to hold them together is the leash which both seem to think is a necessity. Oh, and in this particular case, the puppy wants to hump everything in the park....

a.k.a. I/O

LOL

Quite a picture, and truly a nice parable for any SEE/ILI couple "male/female" or "female/male" in any kind of worldview.

[Cosmic Teapot]

In general it seems to be taken for granted that the ILI is slow to respond, but what about cases when the ILI is the pursuer? My whole life I've been socialized to go after what I want, and have ended up in relationships with SEI and SLIs. I always found myself attracted to what I now understand to be SEEs, but always wrote them off as superficial and shallow and always focused my efforts elsewhere. I think a lot of this had to do with my upbringing which basically subconsciously instilled certain unfounded assumptions about what makes a good mate. In other words, it actively worked against my natural instincts and led me down a blind alley (super ego relations, usually). Examining myself as I am now I see I took on a pseudo aggressor role in all my past relationships in order to make things happen. Now there's a SEE I desperately want to make things work with, and while she was initially attracted to me, its mostly all fallen apart and it just feels like the harder I try the worse it gets. I feel like we're actually fighting over nothing and that if we could just spend some time together it would become obvious how much we harmonize with one another, but it feels like she's doing everything she possibly can to throw up walls and prevent that from ever happening.

Do I just write it off and hope maybe in doing so it will either take care of itself (revert to a more natural dynamic)?-- Or worse case, come to nothing, but I stop wasting my effort? Either way it just sucks... I want some kind of closure but I feel like I'm out there on a rope and I can't do anything about it.

It also doesn't help that her prior fiance was likely also an ILI (never met him) but he died (!) in a freak occurrence; so maybe she on some level knows exactly what kind of potential we have but is terrified of being hurt again..?

Here the story of a SEE-ILI Dual Couple:


She is the copy paste version of Jennifer Lawrence with all the inflated ego and narcissistic behavior you can think of.
He is Te-ILI. Quiet but not awkward (anymore) and most importantly : desperately in love.


They are in a relationship since about 8 years and it was him who initiated. He confessed his love three times to her before they were finally in a relationship. She tried to keep the relationship a secret from her parents for the first 2 years. For no real reason.
He plans to marry her since at least 4 years, knows what rings he will buy and planned the marriage all out, but he waits until both of them have their degrees.
Here comes the problem. Everyone knows they eventually will marry except for the SEE who acts like she can't hear him everytime the topic comes up.
She once said jokingly: "I really wish he would ask me to marry him. But when he does I will say no."
She is easily the most self-righteous person I know and doesn't give a shit about him. All she needs from him is his attention and to accept all the cruel things she says and does to him.




I really wish the ILI would grow a backbone, dump her ass and find someone who actually appreciates him.
So ffs run.

[Adam Strange]

SEE-ILI duality



This one has the BMW's that ILI's love. Note that she has two guys.

[Bertrand]

Are you really, really sure you are ILI and not LIE?

I get how, superficially, that (outward portrayal of my past) sounds exactly like the LIE approach to life, but I do it in a meandering passive lethargic sentimental ILI kind of way. I think 99% of people would likewise think I'm delusional, but there's a weird part of me that firmly believes there is more to this and its a peculiarity of the ILI-SEE dynamic: others are not supposed to understand--it is a kind of hidden pact that we will torture eachother against the advice of all outsiders but what lies unsaid is an attachment that we neither admit or ever give up. Then again, maybe I am just delusional. I think if I really suspected I was merely delusional and I actually wanted to seek better opportunities (I don't), I would be an LIE. A part of me thinks this strange delusion, is ILI (or perhaps, more broadly speaking, a consequence of dominant gamma-style perception).

I would love it if an actual SEE would weigh in

edit: I'm thinking now it must sound like I just made this post only to reject anything I didn't want to hear, and that I've already convinced myself. But that's not entirely true. Conditions for me to give up entirely would be something like a SEE capturing these data points and showing how from the point of view of SEE, she is not willing or is somehow unable to ever let this work. Because, the rub has always been I tend to discount outsider impressions on the issue since I think its precisely their way of thinking that makes SEE emphatically not their dual. Of course they see it as a waste of time and not worth the effort.

My SEE will always say things to the effect of like "you aren't permitted to pass judgement on me without really knowing me" and other such taunts when I say our "problems" are nothing that should get in the way. She will go as far as to say stuff like "I told you I don't feel the same way about you" (keep in mind, we've kissed and it was excellent--when together its electric, nevermind these statements), but she always walks the line on never actually severing relations. She could easily, and I believe nothing is really holding her back except her own desire (in other words, she's not afraid to be mean on principle--in fact she's pretty much mean on purpose all the time so..), simply sever relations if she were so inclined. So she says provocative things, but in deed never actualizes any of it--quite the opposite in fact...

In other words, I'm not discounting your point of view Adam, but I guess I kind of am.

[Bertrand]

Here the story of a SEE-ILI Dual Couple:

I really wish the ILI would grow a backbone, dump her ass and find someone who actually appreciates him.
So ffs run.

This gives me hope in all the ways you don't intend! (...or do you?)

[Singu]

She is easily the most self-righteous person I know and doesn't give a shit about him. All she needs from him is his attention and to accept all the cruel things she says and does to him.

That's funny... I think a lot of SEEs are purposefully mean, so that they could be nice to them later. That's how Se creates strong bonds. It even said so in the Se description, but I forget where it was from.

[Cosmic Teapot]

This gives me hope in all the ways you don't intend! (...or do you?)

I was definitely not trying to make you feel bad about yourself.
I'm glad that I could help.

[Bertrand]

I was definitely not trying to make you feel bad about yourself.
I'm glad that I could help.

I was thinking what you described, although you think of it as being terrible, gives me hope because maybe its just par for the course. It really doesn't motivate me to run, rather to stick it out. Which is what I'm guessing you didn't intend. That I have worth is taken for granted, so the idea that like "you deserve better" is more or less wasted on me, because since I know I have worth, I decide what course of action is in my best interest (typical ILI arrogance, you could say). But if its a bad idea and I persist, I suppose its in the hands of karma to teach me a lesson.

I feel like IEEs tend to link every "problem" back to self esteem or something and thus every solution is some kind of esteem-building positive regard, and its not that I'm ungrateful, but I guess I'm ungrateful.

[Adam Strange]

I have 3 close SEE friends. 1 is SEE-Fi, the other 2 are SEE-Se. All three of them seem to give themselves entirely to the experience of being in a relationship and in love... Only one of them is in a dual relationship (the SEE-Fi to an ILI-Te), and she is ridiculously in love with him and vice versa... She said it was the only relationship in which there were no games for her; no back-forth, wishy-washy crap. They met, got along really well, began a relationship shortly after, and have been married for years. I have only ever seen them interact in social settings together, so I have no idea how they act when alone.

A friend's SEE ex constantly played mind games with him, all of her guy friends, and ex boyfriends. From my perspective, she did/does it because she's loves simply receiving constant affirmation from someone that she is "amazing," and that at any moment, should she want it, one (or all) of them would drop everything for her (including any relationship they are currently in). It seemed toxic and gross. The trend still continues.

The "No games" part of that sounds good.

[Bertrand]

Another point that seems important in this dyad.

The instinctual compatibility - SEE types are often Sx/So. The ILI should be Sp/Sx, then, which is often the case. So that works out.


Case in point: My personal experience is confusing because I deviate from this standard. My stacking is syn-flow, it contradicts the classic ILI attitude of being "against" that the anarchy-loving SEE Sx/So so loves. I can't enter a total rejection state that triggers aggression from SeFi. I am Sx-level aggressive myself, but not in the right way to attract a mate, being weak in resolute Se conquest matters. I deliberate too much in a mad passive state (Ni) but I know what I want and need (Sx+Sp). This ambivalence is confusing to me and SEEs alike I figure it will take more self-improving on my side until I can embrace the pseudo-aggressor role, especially through enneagram 8 integration and Te development. Gotta work with what is already there.

Now, Sx/Sp complements So/Sx. The people that wanted to enter romantic relationships with me so far were NFs, the classic So/Sx types. They were looking for ST authority that I had trouble providing, see reasoning above The only SEE-Se that I made actual romantic plans for the future with was an Sp/So type. Of course, this didn't work out on the long run. Sp is my territory as it's my second instinct, it functions smoothly and anticipates Sp-lastness. After two years, SEE began to bore me to death with an obsessive fitness agenda. No Sx present to cause a spark, SEE's blind spot was undeveloped, so was mine. SEE wasn't behaving cutely either, something that I really like about So/Sx people as they lack the heavy groundedness.

Recap: my internal conflicts around being Sx dominant have caused mayhem within the boundaries of wrong opportunities, including failed duality and NF romantic interests.

I just wanted to say I feel like this is describing exactly me and, I think, strongly contributing to my current situation. Lately, I've also noticed attracting NFs on an instinctual level. It causes me some degree of guilt, actually, because its hard to shake the inner conviction that I don't like them as much as SEE and therefore am somehow wrong for pulling them in, but I can't help myself

sometimes I just really wish I were an SLI, even though I know that's a stupid thing to want; given that if it were true it would totally rearrange my past and present such that, yes, all this would be a non issue, but not because suddenly my dreams are coming true, but because they would no longer be my same dreams and desires

edit: I feel like e1 amplifies Te expression and Sx first amplifies Se (to be clear it does not "amplify" them in regards to actual strength or value, rather merely how I present to the world), such that it creates the impression of LIE in some ways, but its actually a not-insignificant setback in establishing dual relations because of how it sets up a kind of contradiction or tension in how I present, what my needs/wants are, and what my actual strengths are. Snowflake problems, I guess

for what its worth, I feel like I'm actually Ni leaning. I get that all this is not very parsimonious, but its as true to my experience as I can get right now

[Singu]

My SEE will always say things to the effect of like "you aren't permitted to pass judgement on me without really knowing me" and other such taunts when I say our "problems" are nothing that should get in the way. She will go as far as to say stuff like "I told you I don't feel the same way about you" (keep in mind, we've kissed and it was excellent--when together its electric, nevermind these statements), but she always walks the line on never actually severing relations. She could easily, and I believe nothing is really holding her back except her own desire (in other words, she's not afraid to be mean on principle--in fact she's pretty much mean on purpose all the time so..), simply sever relations if she were so inclined. So she says provocative things, but in deed never actualizes any of it--quite the opposite in fact..

I was talking to an SEE, and I was shocked that she would casually talk about how she would be deliberately mean to those whom she was close to, purposefully withhold attention and affection, and when she sees the hurt and dejection in them, she would be nice to them again. I mean as a Se-valuer I get it, I kind of do the same thing sometimes, but it still offended my Fe lol. After reading the Se description, it all made sense.

I've thought that sadomasochism were more or less perversions or "self-esteem issues", but it's strange to think that it might be an innate trait or strategies in some humans. Or in this case, types. I think most people would find SEE-ILI duality very strange and never understand it.

[Bertrand]

I was talking to an SEE, and I was shocked that she would casually talk about how she would be deliberately mean to those whom she was close to, purposefully withhold attention and affection, and when she sees the hurt and dejection in them, she would be nice to them again. I mean as a Se-valuer I get it, I kind of do the same thing sometimes, but it still offended my Fe lol. After reading the Se description, it all made sense.

I've thought that sadomasochism were more or less perversions or "self-esteem issues", but it's strange to think that it might be an innate trait or strategies in some humans. Or in this case, types. I think most people would find SEE-ILI duality very strange and never understand it.

The thing is: I really don't consider it mean, I only consider it mean for the purposes of communication with (especially) alpha and beta quadra, for whom Ti + Fe doesn't really understand not just straightforwardly placating one another with unequivocal statements and direct action (which isn't to say they're concerned with authenticity, rather its more that they don't appreciate nuance, or contradiction as they'd see it)... They very much appreciate what I would consider inauthenticity, rather they value its direct expression (Fe). I think the deal with gamma is they're trying to penetrate through that, and this (my above interactions) is how it spins out. In other words, they want to get to the underlying Fi commitments in spite of actions and statements to the contrary, because that's where the veracity of those commitments is demonstrated--it is the meaningful substrata that is primary and it takes a little (usually painful) digging to get to...

edit: there's an interesting thread in philosophy that started with Kierkegaard (EII) in Fear and Trembling where he talks about the validity of certain paradoxical behavioral decisions on the basis of faith and how they are actually manifestations of the highest ethics. Later, Derrida talks about how this is basically the defense of "the exception" as valid (and necessary) ethical category. To tie it into socionics, I think all of this serves the purpose of essentially freeing us from our beta lawgivers. Were it not for what we're talking about here IEI and EIE would basically control everyone with their relatively unsophisticated and oppressive moralizing.

[Cosmic Teapot]

I was thinking what you described, although you think of it as being terrible, gives me hope because maybe its just par for the course. It really doesn't motivate me to run, rather to stick it out. Which is what I'm guessing you didn't intend. That I have worth is taken for granted, so the idea that like "you deserve better" is more or less wasted on me, because since I know I have worth, I decide what course of action is in my best interest (typical ILI arrogance, you could say). But if its a bad idea and I persist, I suppose its in the hands of karma to teach me a lesson.

I feel like IEEs tend to link every "problem" back to self esteem or something and thus every solution is some kind of esteem-building positive regard, and its not that I'm ungrateful,

That's news to me. Maybe I'm oblivious to that.
But on the other hand: That I'm an IEE is also news to me.
In case you see this when I already have another type on my profile, just mark me as a liar and never trust me again.

but I guess I'm ungrateful.

Not at all.

[Singu]

edit: there's an interesting thread in philosophy that started with Kierkegaard (EII) in Fear and Trembling where he talks about the validity of certain paradoxical behavioral decisions on the basis of faith and how they are actually manifestations of the highest ethics.

Wait... Kierkegaard is an IEI, though.

Later, Derrida talks about how this is basically the defense of "the exception" as valid (and necessary) ethical category. To tie it into socionics, I think all of this serves the purpose of essentially freeing us from our beta lawgivers. Were it not for what we're talking about here IEI and EIE would basically control everyone with their relatively unsophisticated and oppressive moralizing.

Well moralizing is more related to Fi. But Beta NFs can also be somewhat moralizing at times.

[Bertrand]

I can see this conversation is going nowhere

[blackburry]

The thing is: I really don't consider it mean, I only consider it mean for the purposes of communication with (especially) alpha and beta quadra, for whom Ti + Fe doesn't really understand not just straightforwardly placating one another with unequivocal statements and direct action (which isn't to say they're concerned with authenticity, rather its more that they don't appreciate nuance, or contradiction as they'd see it)... They very much appreciate what I would consider inauthenticity, rather they value its direct expression (Fe). I think the deal with gamma is they're trying to penetrate through that, and this (my above interactions) is how it spins out. In other words, they want to get to the underlying Fi commitments in spite of actions and statements to the contrary, because that's where the veracity of those commitments is demonstrated--it is the meaningful substrata that is primary and it takes a little (usually painful) digging to get to...

edit: there's an interesting thread in philosophy that started with Kierkegaard (EII) in Fear and Trembling where he talks about the validity of certain paradoxical behavioral decisions on the basis of faith and how they are actually manifestations of the highest ethics. Later, Derrida talks about how this is basically the defense of "the exception" as valid (and necessary) ethical category. To tie it into socionics, I think all of this serves the purpose of essentially freeing us from our beta lawgivers. Were it not for what we're talking about here IEI and EIE would basically control everyone with their relatively unsophisticated and oppressive moralizing.

This sounds...strange and slightly mad. "essentially freeing us fromour beta lawgivers." Sometimes people just like to be mean to each other. Maybe they are annoyed with life in general and take it out on others. My excuse is that I am usually stressed out, but I do not know to what extent until I realize I am being mean to someone close to me and/or need space. but ermk.






& @DadsHome
Accepting for who the ili/see is and not forcing them to be someone else, but nagging each other for years to change how they act and behave (in your words) until the person changes. Yep, those are contradictory statements and sound like butt.

[DadsHome]

@blackburry

That's an easy conclusion to reach if you can't read between the lines ^_^