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Thread: Ask an SLE woman

  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by fresh meat View Post
    Dear n4,

    How do you distinguish issues with relationships from Fi PoLR? Because I have what would be labeled as Fi PoLR problems (offending people without trying, issues in maintaining relationships, troubles getting close, etc.) but I’m not SLE and definitely not ILE.

    Thanks, your local retard
    I don’t think you have to be that “good at” your stronger functions all the time. I am not that great at math all the time. But I think if you value it, you’ll think you SHOULD be good at it and feel shitty because of that. While if it’s your polr, I think it’s like an extra tool you don’t think you SHOULD be good at necessarily, and so when you are anyway it’s a plus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vvitch View Post
    How does one stop being a jealous lover?
    Get what you want and don’t have yet

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I don’t think you have to be that “good at” your stronger functions all the time. I am not that great at math all the time. But I think if you value it, you’ll think you SHOULD be good at it and feel shitty because of that. While if it’s your polr, I think it’s like an extra tool you don’t think you SHOULD be good at necessarily, and so when you are anyway it’s a plus.
    Hmm, this is actually a really good and accurate way of looking at it.*

    *I’m still typologically confused (I guess that’s better than being sexually confused? ) but this will definitely help put the nail in the coffin
    And I'm what you desire, like a siren in the night



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    Since SLE wants to wrestle with ethical dilemmas Let's bring in the BABY ******.
    Measuring you right now

    Winning is for losers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    Since SLE wants to wrestle with ethical dilemmas Let's bring in the BABY ******.
    Idk how I feel about tampering with history. Mb this is more to do with my Ni valuing. If it really would seem to have a positive effect long term then maybe I’d put that stuff people who legally commit suicide in Nordic countries use for it in his bottle.

    Lol. Do you not like ethical dilemmas and what would you do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Lol. Do you not like ethical dilemmas and what would you do?
    I think he just needed proper education and with time travel that would be fixable. Although conducting one little operation to ******'s father ejaculatory functioning while he is in sleep should be even easier.
    Measuring you right now

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  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    All topics are welcome, but less open-ended ones are preferred.

    (New!) You can listen to this while you wait for your inquiries to be processed:

    How’d you find socionics and why are you here instead of conquering the world?

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
    How’d you find socionics and why are you here instead of conquering the world?
    I’ve been interested in personality theory since I was a child/preteen and have been on personality forums for many many years, where I started with the enneagram, Big 5 and MBTI/JCF. I came across socionics when I was younger too but I dismissed it at the time because it just seemed like a weird cult version of MBTI and mostly the same thing anyway (actually it more or less still is IMO lol). I got into this stuff because I had family issues and wanted to find ways to understand people (and myself) and to solve them, and I’ve always been interested in differences and patterns between people’s personalities too.

    When I was in middle/high school, I felt like I wasn’t able to do much and I was around a lot of sheltered, boring kids and adults, so I turned to the internet to socialize and entertain myself late at night after school. I went on IRC chats. This was a long time ago though.

    I sort of am out conquering the world too atm though lol, like possibly more than anyone you’ve known. Everyone gets some downtime though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I’ve been interested in personality theory since I was a child/preteen and have been on personality forums for many many years, where I started with the enneagram, Big 5 and MBTI/JCF. I came across socionics when I was younger too but I dismissed it at the time because it just seemed like a weird cult version of MBTI and mostly the same thing anyway (actually it more or less still is IMO lol). I got into this stuff because I had family issues and wanted to find ways to understand people (and myself) and to solve them, and I’ve always been interested in differences and patterns between people’s personalities too.

    When I was in middle/high school, I felt like I wasn’t able to do much and I was around a lot of sheltered, boring kids and adults, so I turned to the internet to socialize and entertain myself late at night after school. I went on IRC chats. This was a long time ago though.

    I sort of am out conquering the world too atm though lol, like possibly more than anyone you’ve known. Everyone gets some downtime though.
    Thanks for the reply. More than anyone I know? Do tell.
    I can't take this anymore
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    I've been here before



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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I’ve been interested in personality theory since I was a child/preteen and have been on personality forums for many many years, where I started with the enneagram, Big 5 and MBTI/JCF. I came across socionics when I was younger too but I dismissed it at the time because it just seemed like a weird cult version of MBTI and mostly the same thing anyway (actually it more or less still is IMO lol). I got into this stuff because I had family issues and wanted to find ways to understand people (and myself) and to solve them, and I’ve always been interested in differences and patterns between people’s personalities too.

    When I was in middle/high school, I felt like I wasn’t able to do much and I was around a lot of sheltered, boring kids and adults, so I turned to the internet to socialize and entertain myself late at night after school. I went on IRC chats. This was a long time ago though.

    I sort of am out conquering the world too atm though lol, like possibly more than anyone you’ve known. Everyone gets some downtime though.
    How did you type in MBTI?

  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    How did you type in MBTI?
    I can’t remember what I got when I was a kid. It could have been from ENxx to INxx, but I was a lot more introvert-like when I was smaller. When I was 13-16 I typed as ENxP, eventually leaning ENFP, although once when I first took Dario Nardi’s Keys2Cognition JCF test when I was 14, I got ESTP. Then when I had depression around 16-17 I would score INFJ, ISFP. Then I would score as, and typed at ENFJ at 17+ with some confusion when I got into the Jungian cognitive functions, and participated in “INFJs” communities a lot because I realized I liked them. Around that same time, an IEI counselor I had in irl typed me ISTP with her loose knowledge of MBTI. Then a member who I’m pretty sure is IEI reached out to me on a forum introducing socionics to me and saying I might be SLE in socionics, and I looked into it finally as well as the rest of socionics, read Beskova’s SLE female description and a few other socionics and MBTI ones on ESTp, and I felt like everything fell in place finally for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Bored. Ask me anything.
    Do you know many fe creas irl?

    From what you’ve experienced how would you describe the fe crea / ti crea dynamic?

    I’m not asking about your preferences or anything like that. I just wonder what you think the dialog between these 2 fonctions is all about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YXPR View Post
    Do you know many fe creas irl?

    From what you’ve experienced how would you describe the fe crea / ti crea dynamic?

    I’m not asking about your preferences or anything like that. I just wonder what you think the dialog between these 2 fonctions is all about.
    I think it’s easier to try to understand it by categorizing them as “businesslike-sincere”, “irrational” interactions, under socionics categories. So basically, pretty fluid interactions with easy dissolving and coming back together, and helping each other or sharing experiences and advice with relatively level emotions— contrasted with the “passionate-coldblooded”, and “rational” interactions.

    Not sure what you mean by dialogue but I have some coworkers (1 SEI, 1 IEI, 1 ILE) I see about twice a week and we all interact, so I can share some light examples maybe. These are all positive relationships. We always try to help each other and cheer each other up. Sometimes the IEI and I tease each other a bit and talk about the work hierarchy a lot. ILE and SEI get into philosophical discussions easily.

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    Great song

    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    All topics are welcome, but less open-ended ones are preferred.

    (New!) You can listen to this while you wait for your inquiries to be processed:


  15. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Bored. Ask me anything.
    Do you think you're SLE-Se or SLE-Ti, and what's your enneagram?

    What's the inside of your head like?
    ie Do you see images when you close your eyes, is there a running voice, is there a 6th sense of just knowing, is there nothing, etc etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by inaLim View Post
    Do you think you're SLE-Se or SLE-Ti, and what's your enneagram?

    What's the inside of your head like?
    ie Do you see images when you close your eyes, is there a running voice, is there a 6th sense of just knowing, is there nothing, etc etc
    I don’t think subtypes are valid. One of the reasons for this is that the sociotypes and IEs exist in relation to each other. Which means that if a subsection of this system were to differ, it would disrupt and complicate the rest of it which is supposed to exist in balance with it. There are differences between everyone of course but I think it’s too complex to encompass in 2, 4, 8, or even 10-20, 60 subtypes. Once it gets to that point, it is way more rational to just use description. There shouldn’t be a dichotomy if a clear one doesn’t exist anyway. That defeats the concept of a dichotomy, which means a very clear split.

    I identify as 8w9, and tested Sx/So and identified with that when I was younger. Maybe Sx/Sp nowadays but idk. I don’t really care as much about enneagram nowadays. I think tritypes are fun to read but sort of grasping at straws.

    The inside of my head is mostly a reflection of the world around me, with a running voice there I guess. I see images if I daydream or sleep dream, or I’m imagining things. I’ve mildly hallucinated at least once (I thought someone was walking a dog in the dark when they were actually just holding a white plastic bag, but I could’ve sworn it was a dog coming at me from afar for a second). There is a 6th sense of just knowing but I think it’s a new feature in terms of me owning and putting a voice to it. I think I’m pretty in touch with my intuition compared to average SLEs. It’s just implicit or peripheral knowledge. It’s like when you eat a lot of yogurt and get gassy. If you pay attention to your brain, bubbles of thought that you don’t consciously make will randomly pop into your head as a result of information just passively sitting there and churning a bit. I think generally speaking I’m probably how most people would describe “ultra-sane”. I kind of seek to build a solid understanding of the world and of life, kind of like putting blocks together in Minecraft.
    Last edited by sbbds; 01-04-2020 at 05:50 PM.

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    “SLE-Se vs. SLE-Ti” in theory should be like, “Are you more like Rambo, or more like regular desk job person in society?” Which is really the only way to try make a clear dichotomy here, and even then, both elements can still exist in nearly equal amounts in the same person. The obvious other problem is that it limits true SLE-Se to pro athletes or criminals. It seems like the descriptions of SLE-Se do encompass normal people too, but then by that virtue it just seems like we are splitting hairs, because the official descriptions themselves don’t have clear, dichotomy-like differences between the two subtypes. @inaLim I’ll PM you a typing thread with an old account of mine where I asked people to choose my subtype.

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    My break is ending in a few days and I probably won’t come on too often to check up on this in the future, so ask away while you can. Can also leave comments and others can try to answer them too, I don’t really mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I don’t think subtypes are valid. One of the reasons for this is that the sociotypes exist in relation to each other. Which means that if a subsection of this system were to differ, it would disrupt and complicate the rest of it which is supposed to exist in balance with it. There are differences between everyone of course but I think it’s too complex to encompass in 2, 4, 8, or even 10-20, 60 subtypes. Once it gets to that point, it is way more rational to just use description. There shouldn’t be a dichotomy if a clear one doesn’t exist anyway. That defeats the concept of a dichotomy, which means a very clear split.

    I identify as 8w9, and tested Sx/So and identified with that when I was younger. Maybe Sx/Sp nowadays but idk. I don’t really care as much about enneagram nowadays. I think tritypes are fun to read but sort of grasping at straws.

    The inside of my head is mostly a reflection of the world around me, with a running voice there I guess. I see images if I daydream or sleep dream, or I’m imagining things. I’ve mildly hallucinated at least once (I thought someone was walking a dog in the dark when they were actually just holding a white plastic bag, but I could’ve sworn it was a dog coming at me from afar for a second). There is a 6th sense of just knowing but I think it’s a new feature in terms of me owning and putting a voice to it. I think I’m pretty in touch with my intuition compared to average SLEs. It’s just implicit or peripheral knowledge. It’s like when you eat a lot of yogurt and get gassy. If you pay attention to your brain, bubbles of thought that you don’t consciously make will randomly pop into your head as a result of information just passively sitting there and churning a bit. I think generally speaking I’m probably how most people would describe “ultra-sane”. I kind of seek to build a solid understanding of the world and of life, kind of like putting blocks together in Minecraft.
    It sounds like you experience life in third person objective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    It sounds like you experience life in third person objective.
    Lol Adam. I think we can all get more meta in our perspective at different times.

    I feel like you’re pretty first person, but deep inside a little meta or at least reflective at the same time too. There’s a sense of that when you tell stories or smoothly in the seamless moment make funny candid jokes/ironic comments or observations. Like a knowing awareness and meta sense of control all the time.

    I definitely feel like I have a lot of different lenses I can experience the world and life inside of my head and outside it with. I think that’s the point of Jung and Aushra’s Model A stemming from that.. we might have one stronger “lens”, but all sorts of other lens and viewpoints are all used too and are interconnected. “Lens” being perceptual IEs here.

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    Also @Adam Strange I think that “third person objective” is the definition of being Ep. Impressive to my Ni-seeking of course that you were able to pull that succinctly together from my lengthy description there.

    Unlike the stereotypical, caricatured image of an Se leading type I actually spend a lot of time reflecting; always have. I do think I do it more than is common for real Se leads too, but I’m also certain there are many Se leads who are also closer to me than they are to the exaggerated stereotypes as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Also @Adam Strange I think that “third person objective” is the definition of being Ep. Impressive to my Ni-seeking of course that you were able to pull that succinctly together from my lengthy description there.

    Unlike the stereotypical, caricatured image of an Se leading type I actually spend a lot of time reflecting; always have. I do think I do it more than is common for real Se leads too, but I’m also certain there are many Se leads who are also closer to me than they are to the exaggerated stereotypes as well.
    @sbbds, I‘ve been revisiting The Maltese Falcon, by Dashiel Hammett recently. It is written in third person objective, and the description of Sam Spade in the first few pages, where the cigarette ashes are swirling around the top of his desk, is the embodiment of how I infer an SLE sees the world.

    Hammett was obviously an SLE; a genius at clearly seeing what is there and drawing careful, rational conclusions from the evidence. He basically invented the entire genre of hard-boiled detective fiction, writing scenes and generating tropes that no one had ever written before. And he did it best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Also @Adam Strange I think that “third person objective” is the definition of being Ep. Impressive to my Ni-seeking of course that you were able to pull that succinctly together from my lengthy description there.

    Unlike the stereotypical, caricatured image of an Se leading type I actually spend a lot of time reflecting; always have. I do think I do it more than is common for real Se leads too, but I’m also certain there are many Se leads who are also closer to me than they are to the exaggerated stereotypes as well.
    @sbbds, I‘ve recently been revisiting The Maltese Falcon, by Dashiel Hammett, for the pure pleasure of the writing. It is written in third person objective, and the description of Sam Spade in the first few pages, where the cigarette ashes are swirling around the top of his desk, is the embodiment of how I infer an SLE sees the world.

    Hammett was obviously an SLE; a genius at clearly seeing what is there and drawing careful, rational conclusions from the evidence. He basically invented the entire genre of hard-boiled detective fiction, writing scenes and generating tropes that no one had ever written before. And he did it best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @sbbds, I‘ve been revisiting The Maltese Falcon, by Dashiel Hammett recently. It is written in third person objective, and the description of Sam Spade in the first few pages, where the cigarette ashes are swirling around the top of his desk, is the embodiment of how I infer an SLE sees the world.

    Hammett was obviously an SLE; a genius at clearly seeing what is there and drawing careful, rational conclusions from the evidence. He basically invented the entire genre of hard-boiled detective fiction, writing scenes and generating tropes that no one had ever written before. And he did it best.
    Maybe I’ll take a look at it sometime.

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    Apparently one's supervisor is supposed to be able to give them good advice. Given your recent trouble with men, and the general difficulty T-types (especially Fi-PoLRs) have advising others' emotional problems, I'm not sure how effective it'll be, but are you willing to give me advice on a relationship problem, @sbbds?

    I realize I probably shouldn't be asking a random person on the Internet, but, to be honest, I don't have many friends IRL, and of the people I'm close enough with to ask, I wouldn't trust their advice, for various reasons. So I'm curious if you'd have a different perspective that might be able to help me out.

    In one of my girlfriend's university classes, there's a guy who seems to be aggressively flirting with her. My girlfriend told me that she doesn't know how to respond to this guy's flirting, and she asked me what she should do.

    Well, this didn't seem like something I could decide for her, so I asked her what she wanted to do. She told me she didn't know. She said this guy seems attractive, but somewhat stupid. I asked if she wanted to fuck him, or date him, or just have fun flirting with him. She didn't seem to give a committal answer. I said that it was fine with me for her to do whatever she liked with him. She just laughed nervously, and seemed upset that I didn't seem to give any further advice. The problem is that I don't feel I can give advice if I don't even know what she wants!

    I also am afraid that she partly told me this because she wants me to express jealousy. She's asked me a few times if I feel jealous because of this, to which I said that I didn't really feel threatened by her description of this guy. I'm not sure that that was the answer she wanted. I guess I feel, ultimately, that if she wants to fuck or be with someone else, there's no point in trying to stop her -- what would be the point in pressuring her into something she doesn't want?

    But maybe it's that I don't know what she means when she asks for advice. The problem is essentially that I don't know what she wants, she won't tell me, and she still wants my advice. So what should I do?
    As a goatherd learns his trade by goat, so a writer learns his trade by wrote.

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    “You have problems, and you’re probably going to suck at this, but please help me maybe?”

    LOL @FreelancePoliceman

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    @FreelancePoliceman She wants you to express jealousy or at least have somewhat more of some kind of strong reaction I think, although I don’t really think what more specifically you would say would matter here. Just go “hmph” at least next time or something.

    If you don’t react negatively to this, then I would imagine she’d take it as you lacking valuing of her or of the relationship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    “You have problems, and you’re probably going to suck at this, but please help me maybe?”

    LOL @FreelancePoliceman
    Lol. Well, I thought someone else's advice might be helpful, but I don't know who else I'd ask. Point taken though.

    Edit: just saw your next post. I probably posted too soon.

    Re. seeming upset, the thing is, I actually think the attention might be good for her. She often feels anxious and stressed, and I think the fact that someone else seems interested in her flatters her and makes her feel happy on some level. That might be the source of her feeling conflicted, too -- that is, she likes the attention. Do you still think I ought to pretend to be upset at this? I don't want to discourage it if it makes her feel happy.
    As a goatherd learns his trade by goat, so a writer learns his trade by wrote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Lol. Well, I thought someone else's advice might be helpful, but I don't know who else I'd ask. Point taken though.

    Edit: just saw your next post. I probably posted too soon.

    Re. seeming upset, the thing is, I actually think the attention might be good for her. She often feels anxious and stressed, and I think the fact that someone else seems interested in her flatters her and makes her feel happy on some level. That might be the source of her feeling conflicted, too -- that is, she likes the attention. Do you still think I ought to pretend to be upset at this? I don't want to discourage it if it makes her feel happy.
    Since I’ve been dating your gf’s dual, I’ll share how he’s learned to react towards guys flirting or asking me out for coffee etc:

    - Jokes that I should never even reply or meet with the person
    - If they are a legit acquaintance and I have some social obligation to see them, huffily oblige to me seeing them maybe once platonically and never again
    - Act like a prize himself somewhat. Click on other girls’ profiles intentionally in front of me in ‘retaliation’ lol.

    Idk why but alpha irrationals generally love mind games shit like this IME. I couldn’t tolerate it at first but now it’s growing on me. Let her awaken some possessiveness in you IMO. I don’t think most girls like it when you don’t have any amount of that anyway. Even most ESEs probably.

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    @FreelancePoliceman, you didn't ask me, but I can relate to your wanting whatever is best for your GF. The problem is, she probably wants the reaction that her Dual would naturally produce, whatever that is.

    It is why I'm not chasing an IEI anymore. I just could not be what she wanted me to be.*

    You should ask some healthy ILE's what THEY would do. I suspect they would get emotional about it, at least, more emotional than an LII.



    *Thanks, and a tip-o-the hat to Mr. Bob Dylan.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 01-27-2020 at 12:00 AM.

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    @sbbds, you’re probably right that I ought to seem more possessive. I’ll try.

    @Adam Strange,

    Lol, you’re probably right. I might ask an ILE for advice, if anything. Or at least try to consider what an ILE might do.

    My gf has complained often that I don’t seem protective or sexually aggressive enough. And more than that, she’s said several times like I seem “too intellectual to be interested in sexual matters”, “interested in higher pleasures”, and so on, essentially complaining that I don’t seem interested in anything sexual or basically bodily/instinctual. And that’s...not the case, at all. It does make sense that she expects the better role Se of an ILE, or at least the more performative Fe, and I just am phenomenally bad at expressing either function.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    @sbbds, you’re probably right that I ought to seem more possessive. I’ll try.

    @Adam Strange,

    Lol, you’re probably right. I might ask an ILE for advice, if anything. Or at least try to consider what an ILE might do.

    My gf has complained often that I don’t seem protective or sexually aggressive enough. And more than that, she’s said several times like I seem “too intellectual to be interested in sexual matters”, “interested in higher pleasures”, and so on, essentially complaining that I don’t seem interested in anything sexual or basically bodily/instinctual. And that’s...not the case, at all. It does make sense that she expects the better role Se of an ILE, or at least the more performative Fe, and I just am phenomenally bad at expressing either function.
    I can only relate two instances where an ILE interacted with a female. In the first case, the male ILE went into the SEI's office and said "You have to do what I want! I'M the BOSS." The SEI, who is older than he is and works in a different area, stood up and told him firmly, like a mother to a kid, "No, I'M the boss." The ILE slunk out, but he at least tried. It was actually an awesome thing to see, TBH. It verified Socionics right down the line.

    The second time, I talked to the same ILE and asked him if he's ever getting married. He's almost 40 and he's still living like a kid. He said to me angrily, he wasn't a kid, and the last GF he had, he was banging her from behind and pulling on her hair, which isn't like a kid AT ALL. Role Se, indeed.

    I hope this helps. But honestly, it is really, really hard to give a woman something that you don't do naturally. You either accept a person for the person that they are, or you don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    My gf has complained often that I don’t seem protective or sexually aggressive enough. And more than that, she’s said several times like I seem “too intellectual to be interested in sexual matters”, “interested in higher pleasures”, and so on, essentially complaining that I don’t seem interested in anything sexual or basically bodily/instinctual. And that’s...not the case, at all. It does make sense that she expects the better role Se of an ILE, or at least the more performative Fe, and I just am phenomenally bad at expressing either function.
    It takes a lot for a woman to start expressing that verbally IME. Red flag warning now that I think about it. You had better start banging her from behind and pulling her hair soon or she might start looking elsewhere for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I can only relate two instances where an ILE interacted with a female. In the first case, the male ILE went into the SEI's office and said "You have to do what I want! I'M the BOSS." The SEI, who is older than he is and works in a different area, stood up and told him firmly, like a mother to a kid, "No, I'M the boss." The ILE slunk out, but he at least tried. It was actually an awesome thing to see, TBH. It verified Socionics right down the line.

    The second time, I talked to the same ILE and asked him if he's ever getting married. He's almost 40 and he's still living like a kid. He said to me angrily, he wasn't a kid, and the last GF he had, he was banging her from behind and pulling on her hair, which isn't like a kid AT ALL. Role Se, indeed.

    I hope this helps. But honestly, it is really, really hard to give a woman something that you don't do naturally. You either accept a person for the person that they are, or you don't.
    It does, actually. Your description helps make sense of some of the issues we've had together. I've actually known a couple ILE-SEI couples, but I've always been much closer with the ILEs than the SEIs, and I hadn't really seen much of their interactions together. Those ILEs were also more mature than the average ILE tends to be, and though I saw hints of that scolding-parent-slinking-child dynamic, it tended to seem more playful.

    Putting this in a spoiler since I don't want to derail @sbbds' thread too much.

    I've been trying to make Socionical sense of why my girlfriend and I keep arriving at standoffs so much. It's felt like we fight in the realm of Ti; that is, we end up in fights where she'll try to establish some Ti-based point in opposition to me, on these really minor and inconsequential topics, and I argue back. I inevitably "win" these, but this makes her upset; she's said I try to make her feel stupid, I make fun of her, and I just argue against her for the fun of it (this last point is sometimes true, honestly, but she levels it even when I'm desperately trying not to upset her), or that I'm "not being fair"; essentially, it's seemed like the problem is that she feels she's right, but doesn't feel she's good enough at Ti to defeat me in an argument.

    But I think now a lot of this is rooted in a desire on her part to "correct" her partner. This manifests frequently with her two younger siblings, an EII and an ILE, to whom she acts very confidently and assertively almost as a parent -- she makes sure she's a part of their lives so she can help them manage it, even if she seems to act grudgingly about it sometimes. She's quick to tell them that they're being idiots and basically "correct" them when she sees them doing something she thinks they shouldn't be doing. I'd attributed this to her siblings kind of being idiots, but it really does make sense that she's naturally oriented to act like this. And the problem with me could really be that she just doesn't feel like she's able to tell me what to do, and, worse than that, like I tell her what she should do.

    She's also tried to "parent" me before. I don't like it. It feels like she treats me as a helpless child when she acts that way, and that's uncomfortable (I guess it isn't for ILEs?). I hope that isn't just how she wants to treat her romantic partners.

    The LII-ESE dynamic is supposed to be similar. While I've not had a lot of experience with it, I would assume it's much more laid-back. I don't think I'm cut out for being coddled, at least not in the way she seems to want to do it. If the "correcting" caregiving of the SEI is designed to cover the ILE's Fi PoLR, then the ESE's caregiving, I'd think, would be designed to push the LII to activity. So maybe the aversion to coddling is being wired to want a partner who'll help me in the Se-realm rather than wrap me up in swaddling cloths.
    As a goatherd learns his trade by goat, so a writer learns his trade by wrote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    It takes a lot for a woman to start expressing that verbally IME. Red flag warning now that I think about it. You had better start banging her from behind and pulling her hair soon or she might start looking elsewhere for it.
    Lol. Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    It does, actually. Your description helps make sense of some of the issues we've had together. I've actually known a couple ILE-SEI couples, but I've always been much closer with the ILEs than the SEIs, and I hadn't really seen much of their interactions together. Those ILEs were also more mature than the average ILE tends to be, and though I saw hints of that scolding-parent-slinking-child dynamic, it tended to seem more playful.

    Putting this in a spoiler since I don't want to derail @sbbds' thread too much.

    I've been trying to make Socionical sense of why my girlfriend and I keep arriving at standoffs so much. It's felt like we fight in the realm of Ti; that is, we end up in fights where she'll try to establish some Ti-based point in opposition to me, on these really minor and inconsequential topics, and I argue back. I inevitably "win" these, but this makes her upset; she's said I try to make her feel stupid, I make fun of her, and I just argue against her for the fun of it (this last point is sometimes true, honestly, but she levels it even when I'm desperately trying not to upset her), or that I'm "not being fair"; essentially, it's seemed like the problem is that she feels she's right, but doesn't feel she's good enough at Ti to defeat me in an argument.

    But I think now a lot of this is rooted in a desire on her part to "correct" her partner. This manifests frequently with her two younger siblings, an EII and an ILE, to whom she acts very confidently and assertively almost as a parent -- she makes sure she's a part of their lives so she can help them manage it, even if she seems to act grudgingly about it sometimes. She's quick to tell them that they're being idiots and basically "correct" them when she sees them doing something she thinks they shouldn't be doing. I'd attributed this to her siblings kind of being idiots, but it really does make sense that she's naturally oriented to act like this. And the problem with me could really be that she just doesn't feel like she's able to tell me what to do, and, worse than that, like I tell her what she should do.

    She's also tried to "parent" me before. I don't like it. It feels like she treats me as a helpless child when she acts that way, and that's uncomfortable (I guess it isn't for ILEs?). I hope that isn't just how she wants to treat her romantic partners.

    The LII-ESE dynamic is supposed to be similar. While I've not had a lot of experience with it, I would assume it's much more laid-back. I don't think I'm cut out for being coddled, at least not in the way she seems to want to do it.
    Oh, man, FP, you are breaking my heart.

    You are trying to do Activity. I know of two ESI-ILI (Activity) couples and the first one broke up and the second one is not going well and they don't know why. I know a female LIE who is trying to have nothing to do with her SEE ex-BF, but they have two kids together and she's not happy when he comes around. She moved her and her kids to a new place, and he still shows up there.

    I feel that Activity is immediately satisfying and fun, but eventually turns into something that is just horrible. Your partner seems like they should be perfect but every once in a while, you discover that they are not on the same page as you are. They are on a seriously different page.

    I have a lot of ILI friends, and while they are really easy to take 95% of the time, that j/p divide creeps up on you.

    I actually believe that the j/p difference is kind of like light beer. You've done the multiple hits of acid and you've done the meth and the heroin and the mescaline and the whiskey and you figure that they are all too strong as a steady diet if you are going to appear at work on Monday, but you can handle the light beer just fine. Five years later, you are a drunk and your life is completely destroyed.

    OK, that's the bad part. The good part is that I have seen several people write on this forum about their very happy Activity marriages. So your mileage may vary. After all, Activity is considered to be one of the top three out of 16 relationships, and I was more or less happy in a marriage for many years with an ISTp Supervisor, which is considered to be rated around 12/16.

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    @FreelancePoliceman Can you give an example of one of these Ti arguments? I’m having trouble imagining these, as I never get into logical or philosophical arguments with my BF. Although, sometimes I’ve nagged him about his str8male morals or behaviors lol.

    And derail all you want lol. It’s meant to be an advice thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    @FreelancePoliceman Can you give an example of one of these Ti arguments? I’m having trouble imagining these, as I never get into logical or philosophical arguments with my BF. Although, sometimes I’ve nagged him about his str8male morals or behaviors lol.

    And derail all you want lol. It’s meant to be an advice thread.
    Lol, thanks. I'm pretty informal as a rule, but I do try to be considerate and not barge into other people's threads to talk about my own problems.

    Anyway, re. arguments, here's one. We were listening to a podcast I had put on that deals with philosophy (among other things). In a specific episode, someone was invited on to talk about the night, and how the night has been perceived in different cultures and schools of thought, especially in contrast with the day. In certain parts of the podcast, it seemed as if the host and guest were (good-spiritedly) arguing whether or not the night was superior to the day. My girlfriend seemed to get upset, and mentioned that she preferred episodes that were "more concrete" as opposed to "meaningless philosophical stuff" like this. I asked, essentially, what she meant by "meaningless", and what she would consider more meaningful, and why. That was the source of the argument; I'd rather not try to describe the details of it, since I'd feel like I'd be unfair to her.

    Our arguments are pretty different from topic to topic, though. Another recent one that was pretty bad was what it meant to be aware of one's self, and whether socially anxious people were too self-aware or not self-aware enough.

    @Adam Strange, thanks for the input. I'll need to think of how to respond, so I'll put it off until tomorrow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Lol, thanks. I'm pretty informal as a rule, but I do try to be considerate and not barge into other people's threads to talk about my own problems.

    Anyway, re. arguments, here's one. We were listening to a podcast I had put on that deals with philosophy (among other things). In a specific episode, someone was invited on to talk about the night, and how the night has been perceived in different cultures and schools of thought, especially in contrast with the day. In certain parts of the podcast, it seemed as if the host and guest were (good-spiritedly) arguing whether or not the night was superior to the day. My girlfriend seemed to get upset, and mentioned that she preferred episodes that were "more concrete" as opposed to "meaningless philosophical stuff" like this. I asked, essentially, what she meant by "meaningless", and what she would consider more meaningful, and why. That was the source of the argument; I'd rather not try to describe the details of it, since I'd feel like I'd be unfair to her.

    Our arguments are pretty different from topic to topic, though. Another recent one that was pretty bad was what it meant to be aware of one's self, and whether socially anxious people were too self-aware or not self-aware enough.

    @Adam Strange, thanks for the input. I'll need to think of how to respond, so I'll put it off until tomorrow.
    Seems like standard low Ti stuff. I struggle with this a lot, but maybe somewhat less than your gf because at some point I just give up cuz I don't see it as worth it. It must be worse for someone who's Ti valuing, lol. I still feel like people are intentionally trying to make me seem stupid at times, or laughing at me, but more often than not, in retrospect it's just projection.

    I don't know if it would be helpful if I told you what works for me when I'm getting really angry/upset that I'm being misunderstood and can't express myself, but I'm gonna do it anyway.

    This is not something that you can really force, but maybe ask if she wants to continue the discussion a different time, maybe later or the next day. Oftentimes I do think of a way to phrase my argument, except the discussion has already passed, and I never get a chance to express it. Maybe give her the opportunity to hash it out. I've gotten to the point where I ask outright for time to formulate my thoughts or just let it sit, but I don't see her doing that (yet) haha. Another thing that helps is when people rephrase my argument. Maybe you already do this, but in my head what this does is lay out where I'm at and how much more explaining I need to do to get to a point of understanding And finally, kind of tied with the second thing, a lot of what I say in arguments comes from a place of emotion. Beneath that emotion is some kind of logic, and more often than not it's NOT faulty, it's just that I have no clue how to express it. This may hurt you, poor Ti base(jk), but I don't care as much about word precision as I do about making an emotional impact. I'd wager alpha SFs probably want to make some kind of an impact as well, maybe because they want to impart knowledge or make people better or whatever it is that alpha SFs really want. What I'm trying to say is, even if you think she's not making sense sometimes, try to understand the emotion behind what she's saying. Where it's coming from. If you understand the emotion and then do light rephrasing until she agrees that what you're saying is what she means, I think she'll feel that you're on an equal footing and feel more open to being corrected about that same logic underneath.

    It goes without saying, but this is something that works for me.... Your conflictor! High chances it won't work for her. But maybe it's worth a shot?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Lol, thanks. I'm pretty informal as a rule, but I do try to be considerate and not barge into other people's threads to talk about my own problems.

    Anyway, re. arguments, here's one. We were listening to a podcast I had put on that deals with philosophy (among other things). In a specific episode, someone was invited on to talk about the night, and how the night has been perceived in different cultures and schools of thought, especially in contrast with the day. In certain parts of the podcast, it seemed as if the host and guest were (good-spiritedly) arguing whether or not the night was superior to the day. My girlfriend seemed to get upset, and mentioned that she preferred episodes that were "more concrete" as opposed to "meaningless philosophical stuff" like this. I asked, essentially, what she meant by "meaningless", and what she would consider more meaningful, and why. That was the source of the argument; I'd rather not try to describe the details of it, since I'd feel like I'd be unfair to her.

    Our arguments are pretty different from topic to topic, though. Another recent one that was pretty bad was what it meant to be aware of one's self, and whether socially anxious people were too self-aware or not self-aware enough.

    @Adam Strange, thanks for the input. I'll need to think of how to respond, so I'll put it off until tomorrow.
    IME it’s more important to try to “just get it” first with ethical irrationals. If you try to pry for more of their logic and thoughts and go on more tangents *before* letting them know you understand them or at least giving them feedback and your thoughts on what they’re trying to express, then they might feel like you aren’t taking them seriously enough. It sounds like it might be annoying to the average person anyway to question every little thing about what they mean. This situation looks to me like you’re completely deconstructing her original idea frankly which would definitely make anyone feel like you think they’re stupid. Don’t do it at the very beginning so unceremoniously if you want people to introspect and meta-analyze their own thinking, as it would make it seem like you’re trying to pick a fight.

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