He understands socionics model better than you doOriginally Posted by thehotelambush
He understands socionics model better than you do
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Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Alright man, think whatever you want to think its a free world.
Regarding Red head, I think he has Ne polr, not agenda. So Se-LSI.
If you are bored reading this it means I was also bored typing it, which means I was also bored when it all happened to me with an LSE manager.
Thanks maritsa. When it comes to Te, yes they are planners and will do so augmented by an Si creative function, so they look at all the sensory details that go hand in hand with Te. And if they are your manager, they will monitor your actions as well. Being extroverts they will also comment on them, which is why they make their conflictor IEI nervous and defensive, as they feel they are continuously questioned on the appropriateness of their actions. Which causes them to second guess themselves and the built up experiences their introverted intuition tells them.
I have some knowledge and time watching a few closely.
i wasn't
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Well besides you ofc.
I appreciate your observations. It's finally adding to everything about LSE that I've been saying thus far that other people were associating with Ni traits instead. I was getting very frustrated
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I am certain I am introverted and logical so I'm not completely clueless in regards to my own type, however I prefer to fully explore all the nuances before firmly deciding on a specific type, as a sort of safety measure. Understanding yourself only gives you the understanding of one type, there are still many more types and subtypes you will have to learn and the only way to to do that is by observing other people. And to be sure own of your own you type you need to observe others of the same type to make sure you act in a similar way they do.
Cool.
Wouldn't you agree his energy level is more the level of that of an extrovert? We see him in that section where the others want to call off the wall construction and then he says "screw that" and keeps chugging along like a machine, all the while actively moving objects and people around with 4D TeSe. There is also the section were he pretty obviously displays Ni polr when he fails to predict rather or not the camper has enough gas to reach the destination. LSI is more like Rick, whom's energy aura is sharper and but less intense then the LSE's.
Last edited by Muddy; 05-08-2016 at 12:36 AM.
Loving people because of their type is bad for typology.i love my duals
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Such ether.
Not really. You may observe people of the same type that don't appear all that similar.
But it's important to figure out your type so that you can use your reactions to information and other people to help distinguish the IM elements / types. I mean really, you're the person you know the most about so it should guide your typings of others rather than the other way around.
@thehotelambush Lets think of it this way. What members on this forum would you describe as emotional (Fe) and spiritual (Ni)? One of the immediate examples that pops up in my head is @Eliza Thomason, whom is IEE. But how is this case if Fe and Ni are supposed to just "go away" in delta NFs? They don't, in fact Fe and Ni comprise the core of the Delta NF's actions and behavior. The Ego functions, on the other hand, are things we idealize and glorify. Therefore Delta NFs will idealize the notion righteousness (Fi) and reaching one's potential (Ne). In addition, the super-ego is what we denounce the glorification of. EII with Se polr will denounce the glorification of violence, competitiveness and war as a way of life. However, on the contrary they are willing to tolerate the violent outburst others which often occurs in types with Se in the Id, as long as the offender shows regret afterward and wasn't proud in doing so. This is how EII is able to get along with the otherwise difficult LSE, as they are well equipped to handle the instinctual aggression Se causes when it is placed in the Id.
Now lets look at Beta NFs for a comparison. EIE is often described as being highly skilled at manipulating people. How are they able to do so? Because of Ne and Fi in the Id, which gives them a natural ability to penetrate the inner ideas and feelings of those around them. @Aylen for example whom is Beta NF acts as this sort of psychologist who attempts to understand to herself and others in great depth. Fe and Ni again are what they consciously idealize rather then acting through naturally. Beta NFs contrary to Delta NFs are accepting to the notion of war as a way of life, but at the same time less tolerate to those whom act out in a primitive rage towards themselves.
Good analysis
I'll give you an example of Se pole. When my bf watches prison stories that shows violent offenders, I cried last night because I started to blame the prisoners society and the way we treat people that causes them to grow up with violent attitude and approach. It's not right what we do to create the business of crime, by creating the need for violence in poverty and the conditions we create. These were all young men who had a gang background. This isn't right. That is how EII detestable poverty, violence. Neither of these are any way for any individual to live. When I see the violent prisons I don't see the "bad person" right off I see the product of his creation. That product how we and his society decided to treat this person.
Last edited by Beautiful sky; 05-08-2016 at 09:47 PM.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
This is an interesting perspective. I think for me Ni is underlying and influencing everything in my life and always has. It took years to realize what this inner superpower (yeah I called it that but we all have one) is. I have called it many things until I finally decided Ni sums it up pretty good. Like Fi, Ni as a function is really hard to explain to others who do not have it as a base function.
I am, admittedly, inappropriate, at times, when using Fi. I do try to bite my tongue sometimes because I hate to come off as a critical person because I am not that critical until someone hits a nerve in me. I do want to understand many things, and some people, in depth, for sure. My understanding of others comes like flashes of intuition more than a conscious effort. I call it a "feeling" or even "sensing" things about people (this usually is accompanied by a previous association or an image and not just a feeling). I don't put much effort into understanding most people though because I feel like I already know and I am not interested in getting too close to a lot of people in general. I cannot keep up with a lot of people and get overwhelmed. Fe will pour out of me in a group setting. True Fi is something I don't really want to discuss with others and I will make light of it, usually. I am not entirely comfortable sharing all my feelings with others.
You are right, in my case, about one other thing.
But, I am pretty tolerant of things that Delta NFs are not and vice versa.
My brain is still foggy and maybe I am on the border of bitch mode the past couple days but it runs in cycles. I am not really a "bitch" and I am not much of a complainer either.
Didn't mean to go on a tangent...
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
No, they are micromanagers...
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
LSI are
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
This is an interesting perspective. I think for me Ni is underlying and influencing everything in my life and always has. It took years to realize what this inner superpower (yeah I called it that but we all have one) is. I have called it many things until I finally decided Ni sums it up pretty good. Like Fi, Ni as a function is really hard to explain to others who do not have it as a base function.
I am, admittedly, inappropriate, at times, when using Fi. I do try to bite my tongue sometimes because I hate to come off as a critical person because I am not that critical until someone hits a nerve in me. I do want to understand many things, and some people, in depth, for sure. My understanding of others comes like flashes of intuition more than a conscious effort. I call it a "feeling" or even "sensing" things about people (this usually is accompanied by a previous association or an image and not just a feeling). I don't put much effort into understanding most people though because I feel like I already know and I am not interested in getting too close to a lot of people in general. I cannot keep up with a lot of people and get overwhelmed. Fe will pour out of me in a group setting. True Fi is something I don't really want to discuss with others and I will make light of it, usually. I am not entirely comfortable sharing all my feelings with others.
You are right, in my case, about one other thing.
But, I am pretty tolerant of things that Delta NFs are not and vice versa.
My brain is still foggy and maybe I am on the border of bitch mode the past couple days but it runs in cycles. I am not really a "bitch" and I am not much of a complainer either.
Didn't mean to go on a tangent...
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
@Maritsa,
I agree that listening does take a lot of conscious effort for an Ij. I wonder how much of the whole conversation is actually absorbed. But INXjs are superb at connecting the dots to fill in where they zoned out........
a,k.a. I/O
Same difference really. The best laid plans go out the window as soon as activity starts happening and then LSE needs to maintain control of the process .
That's how I view it anyway. Seems like delta NFs dont mind that type of management because it covers both Te logics as well as sensate details for them.
Oddly, or maybe not oddly, I've noticed the same micromanagement tendancies in EII when they are in position of logistical authority for the daily tasks.
This has been major cause for conflict between myself and them that borders on extinguishment as they sort through, linearly, the process they believe to be the most effective. In fact the biggest interpersonal work place arguments I've ever had has been with EII. This does end up looking like micro managment and poor judgement often at several points throughout the day as they change thier mind about what is "best" to do. The weak yet expected Te produced by them is very apparent. On top of this they become flustered and perfectionistic about inconsequential logics of actions details. This is similar to the LSE.
Also because they are linear rationals, any task completion done spontaneously by others will cause discomfort for the EII unless it in accompanied by strong Te validation for them in their eyes. This could come from a more chilled out source such as a SLI or LIE. However if it comes from a source they do not deem to be immediately graspable through black logic, such as a task done with high energy by an Se valuer, then they will cause an upset. For example moving a company vehicle to a different location without telling will produce unnecessary fear and irritability within them. The same goes for LSE.
Last edited by wacey; 05-11-2016 at 09:35 PM.
The director gives jobs and let's people do their jobs and may come check to see if he likes it that way to check on the methods and monitors actions.
The inspector focuses one one job will want to see and inspect everything in front of him pertaining to the job and using his Se push by using and method to belittle, criticize ("you're a rookie") someone into a subordinate role. Wanting to see all bits of information has to do with being untrusting and suspicious of others actions
@Aylene what do you think?
Last edited by Beautiful sky; 05-12-2016 at 04:17 PM.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I have witnessed many types being accused of micromanagement. I have found that it's related more to the confidence of either the manager, or the employee who thinks that s/he is being micromanaged (also for example, I know INTjs have a low tolerance for being scrutinized by others). I would tend to throw the behaviour or perception into a higher-order personality bin called baggage.
a.k.a. I/O
Some of y'all are massively confusing different things in this thread. For one, confusion of the Administrator with the Entrepreneur, and it's pretty stark. For two, confusion of Se with neuroticism and stress. For three, not realizing that Demonstrative Se means an automatic and strong use of Se, not someone with rage problems, which is Weak Se.
This is not quite the case, if I understand you correctly. The efficiency of LSEs is about getting more done in the same amount of time (i.e. making the most of the time available). This as opposed to the efficiency-attitude of SLIs, which is about getting specific things (a preset amount) done in the shortest amount of time. To put it differently: LSEs want to make the most of a 9 to 5 workday, whereas SLIs strive to get the job done and go home early.
It is this difference in attitude that is an important reason why IEEs can endure SLIs much longer than LSEs. IEEs interacting with LSEs feel physically worn out after a while, and this is the reason why in activity relations between IEEs and LSEs the IEEs need a temporary break from the relationship every now and then. This is not entirely to blame on the LSEs: the recognition-seeking mobilizing-Te can-do-attitude of IEEs gives LSEs a false impression, the (refreshing) impression that the IEE is willing and capable of doing more. Meanwhile, the IEEs have an unconscious expectation that the LSEs will protect them from overexerting themselves, which is what an SLI would take care of in a relationship with an IEE. (I'm reminded of an LSE woman at work yesterday, who, each time she brings me my latte, offers to already put the sugar in it for me. Such obvious caretaking behavior is a sweet thing to see, in a sense more charming than the more subtle, covert caretaking behavior of SLIs).
Likewise, LSEs probably need a break from IEEs because of an overdose of Ne, which is encouraged by LSEs because of their recognition seeking mobilizing-Ne, giving the IEE the false impression the LSE wants more of it.
Last edited by consentingadult; 05-29-2016 at 12:55 PM.
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
You kind of ran with what I was saying and elaborated on it. I pretty much agree with everything you just said here, you fleshed it out nicely.
And see its funny because for myself, the very "help-full" and well meaning small acts by an LSE in my work place, although kind in that Te sort of way, can be irritating and cause me to avoid them. I find myself internally rolling my eyes when I hear "one more little tip". I would assume this falls into their, as you put it "recognition seeking mobilizing Ne"? Voicing the facts of the external world Te in order to supply Ne with information which it in turn can use later on?
Because gammas are not nearly as paternalistic in their administration of Te. The phrase "don't ask, don't tell" comes to mind when describing gamma Te and funny enough SLI. If you don't ask them, then usually they won't tell you. With LSE unsolicited advice, even actual physical help, is the normal.
Your post also is helping me confirm that delta is not the quadra for me.
@consentingadult
I would be curious to understand where you think EII fits into this little scenario we are discussing?
Shouldn't I be asked that?
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
No. Now sthu.
It probably doesn't answer your question all the way, but it might be a start for further discussion:
http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...stive-and.html
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
Mobilizing-Ne is made up of different things, and your item certainly can be one of them, but how Mobilizing Ne manifests itself also depends on the type of the person interacted with. When interacting with an EII or an IEE, Mobilizing-Ne means the LSE jumping on the Delta NF bandwagon so to speak. In other cases it might be the LSE elaborating their 'grand narrative' on some subject, and typically violating some Ni-aspects of reality:
http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...-and-polr.html
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
You know Maritsa, every time you posts one of your unsolicited responses, I'm reminded of the title of this one popular song from when I was about twenty-something:
I'm so f-ing funny, that because of my Ne ;-)
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
The rage thing is so TRUE! I haven't met an LSE yet, but for SLIs, they're like a bomb that will explode at any moment, the inner anger is just apparent and so strong. They're calm, but watching them I'm like in a constant state of ''Oh god, be prepared for an explosion". Out of nowhere they will lash out at people and can say some hurtful things without being conscious of it but later they usually feel bad about it and apologize. Though, as a consequence of this, I know one SLI who gave up and accepted this fact: that his "bad" behavior will repel the people around him and that his fate at the end is always being alone. He can't tolerate the company of others if it exceeds few hours and he feels more comfortable alone.
It's weird that I don't notice this inner anger in Se ego types... it's misleading because I almost typed SLIs as Se ego. But thanks to the intertype relations I avoided the trap.
@Muddy what you said, makes a lot of sense. Imo when we are kids, we generally use our Id functions and as we grow up we will start favoring the Ego functions, but the Id functions come easier to us so we try to repress them.
Last edited by Kernel; 11-18-2017 at 07:02 PM.
I just want to point out that the slapfight over Ti/Te "right way to do things" implicates the corresponding feeling function and its easier to distinguish Ti/Te "correct way to work" by bringing them in. Another thing to note is people tend to use the same words to mean different things. Thus any type can argue over the "right way to do things" and it tends to be fundamentally rooted in Fi or Ti, but what they mean by "right" is informed by their values. Thus a Ti valuer will think the right way to do things implicates a degree of Fe, it will be systemic in the sense that it may not be the most expedient but it will be "fair" in the sense it implicates an understanding of objective ethics in informing any "best" course of action. What this means is Ti may consider broader application of the "rules" it sets forth. It is less context specific and is less aimed at any given person, instead it contemplates the course of action in terms of its universal application.
Te tends to view work as a series of distinct and unique episodes. problems are limitless, there is no one size fits all solution, except that the solution should be tailored to fit the problem. if for no other reason any situation involving people, people make the situation unique. Treating people in the same situation as interchangeable is inefficient and dehumanizing, and may not even be what the inviduals themselves want. Thus the "best way to do things" is informed by focus on how to complete the task at hand while making best use of both the strengths and weaknesses of the individuals involved as well as the resources. fairness is less about treating people equally, rather it is founded on the ethic that everyone does their best according to their own ability, so that labor can be rationally divided with the assurance that no one is pretending or slacking and thus the collective benefits from authenticity because it allows for tailored solutions of maximal accuracy. the end result is people develop themselves via their effort, and the work is handled in a way that produces the maximum result for everyone to profit by. so for Te "the best" can be seen as outright "unfair" in some autistic-logical sense, whereas for Ti it can seem outright "inefficient" from the point of view of effectiveness. (many times when saddled with extra work I've said I want to take responsibility for it, because I know its better off left with me... at the same time I hate it when I'm given tasks management knows Im bad at and someone else could handle better, just because "its fair"--in other words, "fair" to Te is an approach to labor divorced from 1:1 assignment of tasks, it is more rooted in people taking responsibility for that which they know they should). I feel like "to do your best" means something subtly different to Fi and Fe valuers. LSE is constantly dual-seeking this notion which really fucks over certain Fe types who don't share it
all labor implicates ethical presuppositions by its very nature, ever since Adam was condemned to work, which really seems to be a mythological stand-in for the psychological birth of man's awareness of work as such
Awesome post and insight. This perfectly sums up the relationship between me (IEE) and my Mother in Law (LSE). She will never offer me something without also making it for me herself- be it a meal, a drink. She does this for everyone, and tragically it goes under appreciated, which leads to built up anger. Somehow I can see and understand that, so I'm more inclined to give grace and appreciation to appease any rage.
My SLI husband will kiss my forehead or politely offer to help me as a form of caretaking. It's not as insisted as charming LSE is, but it is still there, if not gentle and overt.
In rather simplistic terms, I used to say my Mother in Law was the extroverted version of my husband. Both have anger. Both can be kind and caring caretakers, but they are made manifest very differently.
And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30
Yes! I use humor to dull the anger by calling my husband Dr Hulk. He seems to almost enjoy his anger in the sense that it helps him lift weights. At the same time, he knows it ought not be there, and that it affects his blood pressure and overall health.
His is never violent. That's something different entirely. His is more frustration that expresses itself in breaking a game controller.
And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30
‘They’re not that emotionally supportive’..how does an LSE explain away this aspect of their personality? Do they see themselves this way?
Does it feel difficult to show empathy to someone? I think
my ILI friend used to find it hard/overwhelming to talk about emotions..and was aware she could say the wrong thing which might offend someone.
Do they find work arounds- like offering advice from something they’ve read so it feels like they’re being emotionally supportive?
To me being able to show emotional support is what makes someone human..I guess LSEs do show some emotional support..I probably just expect too much or need to gain their trust..
Offering advice is the most common way LSEs will show emotional support. It may not be something they read but something they have experienced and gone through or just by using their common sense.
Ok so I’m starting to see the caring side of my LSE boss. It’s a very odd situation. I had to make a complaint about someone (only informal in the end) and it was really tough ‘taking on’ my LSE boss and trying to get him to truly understand the situation. It dragged on..I think he got scared in the end when I was honest with how upset one of our meetings left me feeling. As part of the complaint process the person I complained about showed him really sensitive emails so LSE boss now knows some of my deepest darkest secrets.
He insisted on being my line manager for a while..and think I’m finally seeing a really good side of him. In one of our following meetings he casually brought up our LII colleague who committed suicide not that long ago. Felt like an indirect way of saying he acknowledges how difficult things can get for people. And now I have long covid, and he’s being supportive in a way that I need- clear guidance and caring like a parent is with a kid. The lasting meeting we had felt very warm and genuine and I think he’s right- I do need a manager like him atm. Sometimes he even reminds me of the SEI I had to complain about, who I ironically loved very dearly. Same silly happy feelings and a feeling that we appreciate interacting with each other.
I think conflict relations can actually feel dual- like sometimes- quite affectionate.
Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 11-25-2022 at 02:52 PM.
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