Theory: Inferior Duality in Beta and Delta

[Rebelondeck]

I had written the below referenced thread for the Alpha Quadra but I also think that it applies to Gamma. However, for Beta and Delta, the output processes of one dual partner does not feed and supplement the input processes of the other, although information would still be hugely useful for one another. I suspect that this likely would make these dual pairs inferior in communication with one another when compared with the Alpha and Gamma duals.

Does anyone have anecdotal information to refute or support this?

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...f-Dual-by-I-O?

a.k.a. I/O

[Beautiful sky]

Do you mean to say that duals don't have good communication?

[Rebelondeck]

Maritsa,

Beta and Delta duals might experience significant communication problems whereas it's not a big issue among Alpha and Gamma duals. Now all type-pairs will experience communication problems occasionally, but some much more than others.

a.k.a. I/O

[Beautiful sky]

Maritsa,

Beta and Delta duals might experience significant communication problems whereas it's not a big issue among Alpha and Gamma duals. Now all type-pairs will experience communication problems occasionally, but some much more than others.

a.k.a. I/O

I don't know if this is a viable theory, honestly. I understand my duals well.

[Rebelondeck]

Matitsa,

But what about the other way round; does your dual say the same thing? I don't equate communication with understanding (although they do facilitate one another) but I would think that one can successfully communicate without truly understanding, and vice versa. I wondered whether or not NF-types would, in general, have some trouble talking with ST-types, perhaps more so in the early stages of a relationship.

a.k.a I/O

[Beautiful sky]

Matitsa,

But what about the other way round; does your dual say the same thing? I don't equate communication with understanding (although they do facilitate one another) but I would think that one can successfully communicate without truly understanding, and vice versa. I wondered whether or not NF-types would, in general, have some trouble talking with ST-types, perhaps more so in the early stages of a relationship.

a.k.a I/O

I only know of two duals here right now. @Sol and @yen they will have to tell you if they understand me.

[Rebelondeck]

Maritsa,

If they know you in person, I would say their opinions would be very valid. Online communication tends to isolate and filter.

a.k.a. I/O

[Beautiful sky]

Maritsa,

If they know you in person, I would say their opinions would be very valid. Online communication tends to isolate and filter.

a.k.a. I/O

Hum. I'll see if I can find examples of miscommunication between duals. Doing the opposite might help me look at it differently

[Rebelondeck]

Maritsa,

I also have noted similar phenomena with other types. Communication with: my INFp daughter is largely one way, her Fe to my Ne; my ISTp son is one way, my Ti to his Si; many ISFjs and several ISFps and ESFps, easy bidirectional flow; two ENTp colleagues, painful for both parties; many, many ISTj and several ESTp is one way, my Ti to their Se. I get along well with quite a few INTp and I get a lot of information from them but communication seems largely forced on both sides.....

a.k.a. I/O

[Sol]

I don't equate communication with understanding (although they do facilitate one another) but I would think that one can successfully communicate without truly understanding, and vice versa.

The main problem of bad IR is not the lack of understanding, but to approve what you understand and see. In bad IR it's like when you like other things and dislike/indifferent to what the opponent likes. It's not absolute, but the difference is significant.

I wondered whether or not NF-types would, in general, have some trouble talking with ST-types, perhaps more so in the early stages of a relationship.

It's easier to establish good relations with good IR. Only a half of ST types have good IR for some NF.

However, for Beta and Delta, the output processes of one dual partner does not feed and supplement the input processes of the other

It's wrong to theory and controverts to my experience.

P.S. Maritsa is not my dual. I suspect mostly ENFJ for her. The common way for people to get exotic opinions about IR is caused by wrong typings. Instead of better typing they invent new theory to explain their strange experience.

[Pookie]

for Beta and Delta, the output processes of one dual partner does not feed and supplement the input processes of the other, although information would still be hugely useful for one another

Say this in a different set of words or provide direction to where I can read what you read please? What you said is difficult to conceptualize. In Socionics the creative is effectively the output, so yeah it doesn't feed the input of the dual, it feeds the output of the dual. For all quadras. But I think that's not what youre meaning with your words.

[Aylen]

Matitsa,

But what about the other way round; does your dual say the same thing? I don't equate communication with understanding (although they do facilitate one another) but I would think that one can successfully communicate without truly understanding, and vice versa. I wondered whether or not NF-types would, in general, have some trouble talking with ST-types, perhaps more so in the early stages of a relationship.

a.k.a I/O

It depends on maturity level and common interests but this would probably apply to any relationship. In the beginning it can be very physical with Beta ST types, in my experience, which can be good for me. It is often fun and intense, if there is chemistry. A lot of excitement. It helps me get in touch with my body. In later stages it can get into philosophical discussions, among other things, and the communication can be very easy. You can get to a point where you can speak to each other without words, a look, a touch, etc...I have had SLE tell me they are in awe of my brain and they weren't being sarcastic or facetious. They can become enthralled. I don't know if anyone can truly understand the "duality" of other dual pairs. Your concept is probably very different than how we experience it. I can look at other dual pairs and think their lives would be dull for me to lead or they lack passion. I know they may have passion and not be bored with each other. It just seems that way.

Interacting with an ST dual online is obviously going to be lacking in comparison to real life. Se types need the physical interactions. Not just talking about romantic relationships. They are in the moment and even the friendships will be best in person. After the first meeting it gets even better for friendship or romance if you have enough in common and there is chemistry. I even need some kind of chemistry to maintain a friendships. Otherwise it fades. My best female friend, of several years, was an SLE. We could talk for hours about the meaning of life.

[Rebelondeck]

Pookie,

I don't adhere to Socionics models. I view input and output from an engineering perspective. The following may give you an idea of from where I'm coming:

http://www.socionics.com/articles/mytake.html
http://www.socionics.com/articles/int_ext.html
http://www.socionics.com/articles/soc_pref_io.html

[Beautiful sky]

banned content

God you are mean

[Pookie]

Pookie,

I don't adhere to Socionics models. I view input and output from an engineering perspective. The following may give you an idea of from where I'm coming:

http://www.socionics.com/articles/mytake.html
http://www.socionics.com/articles/int_ext.html
http://www.socionics.com/articles/soc_pref_io.html

Oh ok they are your own theories.

Just copy and paste whats relevant here, or elaborate a little on what you're saying. Its a lot to sift through there, and I don't catch where the jump from those to this is apparent.

Whats input and output for the aristocratic types, by your intended meanings?

Why do they not feed or supplement the dual?

We're speaking different languages, I need short translation in order to grasp what you're saying.

[Aylen]

Suspect to extraversion

@yen will have a different perspective for you.

[Rebelondeck]

I don't know if anyone can truly understand the "duality" of other dual pairs.

Aylin,

This is a valid point, which is why I concentrated on what I thought might be a plus for Alpha and Gamma duals - inherent as opposed to learned communication. This is perhaps a minor point because we do learn how to communicate with all types but most of these skills are in the brain's software (not in the firmware that is type). Also, physical attraction and curiosity does trump cognitive reasoning but once the novelty has worn off, is communication as natural as one first thought among Beta and Delta duals.

a.k.a. I/O

[Aylen]

Aylin,

This is a valid point, which is why I concentrated on what I thought might be a plus for Alpha and Gamma duals - inherent as opposed to learned communication. This is perhaps a minor point because we do learn how to communicate with all types but most of these skills are in the brain's software (not in the firmware that is type). Also, physical attraction and curiosity does trump cognitive reasoning but once the novelty has worn off, is communication as natural as one first thought among Beta and Delta duals.

a.k.a. I/O

I find communicating easier and natural, with duals, especially once the honeymoon period is over. That includes friends and romantic partners. My ex father in-law (not legally) and I were duals. I could communicate with him very naturally even though I found him a bit boring when he discussed some of his interests, that I didn't share. He just got me and got him. We could communicate what we were experiencing, in a room with delta and gamma types, through eye contact alone. He would make me burst out laughing (with subtle facial expressions), sometimes, when the delta and gamma were being all serious. I was his bridge in communicating with them. I helped him feel a part of the interaction by including him. The three of them had very different interests but I had things in common with all three and was able to follow all the conversations. They didn't get him and he didn't really get them either even though they were his own family. Their types were EII and ILI. I didn't even know about socionics then but I knew there was something smooth in our interactions.

[Rebelondeck]

Oh ok they are your own theories.

Just copy and paste whats relevant here, or elaborate a little on what you're saying. Its a lot to sift through there, and I don't catch where the jump from those to this is apparent.

Whats input and output for the aristocratic types, by your intended meanings?

Why do they not feed or supplement the dual?

We're speaking different languages, I need short translation in order to grasp what you're saying.

Pookie,

I agree that we speak different languages; aristocratic types I don't know. For all types, input is all information feeding a processor and output is the results of any rationalization from that processor. F and N are processes of a relative nature while S and T are of an absolute nature. F-output processes produce qualitative information that is best assimilated by N-input processes while T-output processes produce quantitative information that is best assimilated by S-input processes; hence one feeding the other. This correlation would facilitate communication among certain types.


a.k.a. I/O

[Rebelondeck]

Alyen,

With the way that you express communication with your dual, it seems that it's strength may lie in non-verbal communication. This may be a strength for Beta and Delta duals. Opinion?

a.k.a. I/O

[Pookie]

Yeah that's the external / internal dichotomy, but I think your missing the importance of the Abstract / Involved dynamic. Democratic groups have Mixed External / Internal Elements and types that are wholly involved/Abstract. Aristocratic groups have mixed Involved/Abstract and types that are wholly external / internal.

I think your idea is limited in its assumption that External / Internal is more important than Abstract / Involved in the communication process. For a type that is wholly External/Internal(Aristocrats), it is not.

[Aylen]

Alyen,

With the way that you express communication with your dual, it seems that it's strength may lie in non-verbal communication. This may be a strength for Beta and Delta duals. Opinion?

a.k.a. I/O

Telepathy is the future. We were made for it.

I have good non-verbal communication with duals but I can also talk about the meaning of life, or some way out stuff, for hours with them. I can also listen to them talk about practical stuff and not get irritated. It is all in the presentation. I can talk about cars with some duals because I have some experience. They lose me at sports, but everyone does, as I am not interested. It really depends on the person. I like that duals will not press me when they know I have exhausted my ability to interact with others. They also tend to know when I need to interact. Maybe that is non-verbal. I think that is something you learn about a person, over time. It can seem insensitive to outsiders sometimes but that might just have to do with inside jokes and things of that nature.

I don't think any quadra has a superior kind of duality, including my own. I also do non-verbal communication with family members as well. My LSI mom and I talk without words. My IEI brother and I can look at each other and know what the other is thinking. I think I am better at it than him only because I have more practice observing.

[Rebelondeck]

Yeah that's the external / internal dichotomy, but I think your missing the importance of the Abstract / Involved dynamic. Democratic groups have Mixed External / Internal Elements and types that are wholly involved/Abstract. Aristocratic groups have mixed Involved/Abstract and types that are wholly external / internal.

I think your idea is limited in its assumption that External / Internal is more important than Abstract / Involved in the communication process. For a type that is wholly External/Internal(Aristocrats), it is not.

Pookie,

One can subdivide input and output into all kinds of subclasses for the Brain's software level but within the firmware of type, I think information processing is much more fundamental; it has to be because there is limited bandwidth. Socionics and MBTI modelling can't seem to separate firmware from software and I think their complicated perceptions of input and output are a major flaws.

a.k.a. I/O

[Rebelondeck]

Telepathy is the future. We were made for it.

I have good non-verbal communication with duals but I can also talk about the meaning of life, or some way out stuff, for hours with them. I can also listen to them talk about practical stuff and not get irritated. It is all in the presentation. I can talk about cars with some duals because I have some experience. They lose me at sports, but everyone does, as I am not interested. It really depends on the person. I like that duals will not press me when they know I have exhausted my ability to interact with others. They also tend to know when I need to interact. Maybe that is non-verbal. I think that is something you learn about a person, over time. It can seem insensitive to outsiders sometimes but that might just have to do with inside jokes and things of that nature.

I don't think any quadra has a superior kind of duality, including my own. I also do non-verbal communication with family members as well. My LSI mom and I talk without words. My IEI brother and I can look at each other and know what the other is thinking. I think I am better at it than him only because I have more practice observing.

Aylen,

With people in general including with my dual, I have zero non-verbal skills. I seem to have a natural ability to analyze everyone's words; i.e., when I'm interested. I'm not trying to imply that one duality is superior another but like type, dual pairs may have unique strengths and weaknesses. I used the word 'inferior' to simply draw attention to the possibility......

a.k.a I/O

[Aylen]

Aylen,

With people in general including with my dual, I have zero non-verbal skills. I seem to have a natural ability to analyze everyone's words; i.e., when I'm interested. I'm not trying to imply that one duality is superior another but like type, dual pairs may have unique strengths and weaknesses. I used the word 'inferior' to simply draw attention to the possibility......

a.k.a I/O

Are you saying you do not compare energy, body language etc... to the words while you are analyzing? Are you able to tell when someone's words do not match their energy or do you take most things at face value?

I just wonder how you would fair if you were put in situation where others were vowed to complete silence and you were not allowed to speak either. I remember I had a friend awhile back that I would try to use signaling and eye contact to communicate with and it would frustrate them. They would say, "just speak". I am non verbal when I first wake up. I have to readjust to my body so it is particularly helpful when others can read me. I get really verbal during the day and then at night I start to wind down again.

I think I picked some of it up from duals who tend to call everything a "thing" so I started distinguishing what they meant by "thing" since they can get frustrated when a word does not come to them and the other person is just staring at them. Now when someone says, "give me that thing" I usually know exactly what they mean. I do find myself in situations with some people, like my ESE sister, where they make things so detailed that I lose interest and have to stop them and ask them to state the main points. Her body language does not always fit what she is saying. She can be telling me about a bad experience where she told someone off and I am just laughing because I know there is no way she told them off. I am sure she was thinking it but she is too polite to be mean most of the time. I will tell her stop and just tell me what really happened and then she will stop telling her thoughts as if they really happened.

Edit: By details in relation to my sister, I mean telling me what she had for breakfast, her drive to work, who she talked to and what they talked about. Things that I do not find interesting unless maybe it is someone I know. I like when she cuts the extraneous info but she seems to lack awareness of what extraneous info is.

[Rebelondeck]

Are you saying you do not compare energy, body language etc... to the words while you are analyzing? Are you able to tell when someone's words do not match their energy or do you take most things at face value?

Aylen,

Not at all and I'm no spring chicken. I can very easily detect people's motives as to why they're doing what they're doing; however, their feelings have always been irrelevant likely because I wouldn't know unless someone told me. Therefore, I can easily work with people who hate me. However, I do appreciate my ESFj dual for being so vocal about her feelings because then there is no guesswork for me.

a.k.a. I/O

[Beautiful sky]

Experience can replace the speculation.



Communication becomes ... isolated/filtered in most situations. You can have a socionically favorable relationship as your boss at work, it's not always guaranteed to go well or you will get to know them due to restrictions of hierarchy and professionalism required which can constrain. For example I have an IEE manager, I get on well with him, infact we agree on a lot of things and share similar insights, but he frustrates me with his lack of organisation, a "P" trait. In other settings we would be great friends, although as it is we get on well but it is a business set up and after work we live our separate lives. On line presents different scenarios, where people who would not normally open up to each other can and do get to know each other quite well, so there are different aspects to all forms of getting to know someone. Even people who know each other very well IRL, they still say if you want to know me come and live with me, for instance.

As for communication with duals and quadras in general, when I think about the best relationships I've had, they've been people in my quadra. There is an EII I know IRL but not too well, i've been somewhat put off by her because she has tattoos and cusses. As much as Deltas can have tattoos it's not quite my thing, but i've since learned in a passing remark by her that she wishes she did not have her tattoos, it's a mistake, also I am theorizing the cussing might be that she is trying to support her SLI friend who cusses a lot, but we'll see.


I think i've been asked to comment on this, possibly, but I think Maritsa is EII, because she represents what I understand to be Fi and Ne, I don't want to battle type as none of this can be proven and in the end all parties don't gain.

@Rebelondeck, Also in your article, I don't find mirror relationships the least complementary. I know SLIs who do little but I understand it because I can sense their Si, even although I oppose lazyness generally. For SLE I see them spending a lot of time on (to me) fruitless conversations and making noise for the sake of noise, which I find more of an irritant because it doesn't resonate with my productivity or my brand of sensing.

This isn't to say SLE is wrong, please don't misunderstand me, and any Beta type or other type please don't think so either, what it does mean from my own experiences as myself and my type, that same quadra is easier and opposing quadra the most challenging, but it's safe to say that other circumstances can affect relationships, it's enough to leave it at that which would always be common sense in my humble take.

Things like tattoos, ease of cursing, ease of sexual expression, ease of Religious expression and all manner of things are associated with one's culture. I come from Armenia and there my parents are from the culture where tattoos are only had by prisoners so they were very strict about not allowing it. While something like saying you love God wasn't. To a dual who comes from a culture opposite of those two values, as an example, the EII seems distasteful when really those are surface qualities. Some can be changed. For instance telling your partner "please don't say you love God so much" ordered "please cover your tattoos" and some instances people have feelings of ties associated with them and are reluctant to. LSE in general try to meet on common interest and skip cultural b.s. I do too. Thus uniting them into a new aristocratic tendency where the Armenians married a Bulgarian and they have OUR family.

If a person looks at what is right or wrong or ideal to them they can miss out on picking up dual traits

[Beautiful sky]

I agree,

I've found myself being judgemental at times. For instance in the tattoo example, and not necessarily about the EII, but in terms of tattoos I've had thoughts along the lines of, why would someone want to permanently mark their body? It is like graffiti on the body. I also think once they have made the choice to get one they can't go back (but now of course there is expensive laser surgery), and some do it for flippant reasons so they are doing something permanent to their body without giving their body it's deserved respect, ie a tattoo decided quickly rather than a tattoo were one has put a lot of thought into it, we only have one body so deciding to do something to it flippantly that can't be changed makes me wonder if they have a flippant attitude to themselves, as in they maybe could think or feel better about themselves or their health, low self opinions etc.

But I realize this is my mind looking for some sort of perfection, and in doing this type of judgement, whether there is some truth to it or not, doesn't make me a nice person, so I switch it off and just get to know people for the qualities they have and that way I am a better person to know and be around.

But it can go on, something like swearing, I will judge given the circumstances and situation, for instance swearing at a social gathering is less of an offence than swearing in front of someones relatives as an example, as it suggests a lack of respect. I am probably too critical, so I reduce that.

How much of that is associated with LSE, I don't know, I haven't looked into it. I know being overly judgemental is not a good quality so I decide every so often not to get tied down with such thoughts and appreciate people for how they are, enables better contact and enables me to re-visit my formed views which can move out of date or be restrictive.

I was raised by my LSE cousin. She is also a nurse who looks after people's bodies The common saying are "your body is your temple" combine that with my parent's values of no tattoos and you get me

An LSE who comes from a proud tradition let's say Idk Irish lol may consider a four leaf clover tattoo lol

So, even being raised by a dual doesn't make one escape the cultural and social experiences


I think this proves that duals come to agreements, learn things from each other, have peaceful communication, when they are open.

[Delilah]

@Rebelondeck: Interesting, is this hypothesis from observation? I had once started a thread on this forum where i'd suggested that there are more successful dyads in alpha...i had simply seemed to come across more alpha individuals closely associated with their duals - i don't know if that would be related to what you're saying here, hm. Of course, i have kept no notes of what i was thinking at that time and in my mind i thought maybe i was being biased or simply didn't have enough data (which, to me, i never feel i have enough data on anything).

I'm curious if you have anything more to add now that it's been a while since you started this thread (?). Thanks.

[Rebelondeck]

......I'm curious if you have anything more to add now that it's been a while since you started this thread (?). Thanks.

No, I haven't. It was apparent that my theories were being dismissed by most so I stopped; I'm not one who enjoys pushing on the end of a rope. Now, I only offer comments on the threads of others - more for amusement.

a.k.a. I/O

[Chthonic Daydream]

This seems like a great theory, honestly. It would explain some of the issues I face with my supposed-duals at every turn.

[ooo]

sorry, I haven't read all of this but I understand you're saying that duality that involves NF and ST pairs is less effective than SF and NT because the nature of NF and ST is sort of "ideal", aka "fixed", while SF and NT use blended functions that allow them to dualize better?

I've been thinking the opposite, that SF is involved and NT is abstract, so that the most balanced types are NF and ST.

[ooo]

actually it makes sense, if you're balanced and provide yourself the inputs you need, you're less "interested" in what a dual gives. if F naturally provides N content, and T provides S, these types will be sort of auto-sufficient. interesting.

[Adam Strange]

Pookie,

I agree that we speak different languages; aristocratic types I don't know. For all types, input is all information feeding a processor and output is the results of any rationalization from that processor. F and N are processes of a relative nature while S and T are of an absolute nature. F-output processes produce qualitative information that is best assimilated by N-input processes while T-output processes produce quantitative information that is best assimilated by S-input processes; hence one feeding the other. This correlation would facilitate communication among certain types.
a.k.a. I/O

I'm thinking that this goes a long way towards explaining the ease of communication between Gamma Activity partners, Te-Ni with Se-fi, and Fi-Se with Ni-Te.

Or have I misunderstood something, since both Beta and Delta also have T-S and F-N pairs?

[The Reality Denialist]

AFAIK ST-NF are more drawn to other things in each other than SF-NT. Some say things like physicality and so on...

[Rebelondeck]

...... since both Beta and Delta also have T-S and F-N pairs?

Yes but they're not duals. For example, ESTj-ISTp pairs (your parents?) would likely have inherently better verbal communication than say ESTj-INFj duals - but I'm certainly not implying that they'll agree on what is being communicated.....

a.k.a. I/O

[Hope]

Other socionists also mention that understanding or communication is not the best in all cases of duality. I don't know from where the idea of "perfection" was attached to duality in this forum, but its nonsense. Duals are almost opposites and often need a lot of time or especial circumstances to dualize and else.
Duality works because they compliment each other and are in the same quadra. Then, I don't know if there exist better communication in alpha or gamma than in the other two, but I could say that obviously, j duals can get a better communication or "understanding" (which I'd call bonding, attachment and stability, the need for predictability instead of novelty) than p duals simply because that's part of rationality.

[ooo]

communication is key though, either it's vocalized or not