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    Default INFj vs INFp

    @Maritsa @Subteigh Jeremy ( mentions don't work) and all self typed EII/INFjs/INFJ. I have seen you three self-type INFJ in MBTI so I am curious why. How do you guys relate to Ni? and Fe in the INFJ? I am posting some quotes which I think sums up the functions pretty well and would like to know which ones you relate most with. I think it would be helpful for others coming from a Jungian or MBTI perspective. I joined this site assuming I would be INFj. It didn't work out the way since the functions were wrong. Not questioning my type since I think IEI/EII behavioral descriptions are a combination of INFJ/INFP. I want to focus on cognitive functions here and how they might manifest.

    I watched a documentary on Jung last night and it made me curious. I know Jeremy in particular identifies with INFJ descriptions and I wanna know why. Help me understand your rational.



    Regardless what you think of MBTI (it is all self report anyway including socionics) I think these descriptions of Ni and Fe in an INFJ are pretty good.


    Extraverted Intuition (Ne)

    NP types use Extraverted Intuition (Ne) as their dominant or auxiliary function. The verbal expression of Ne amounts to something like “brainstorming aloud.” When orating, NPs may not always seem to “have a point” as they haphazardly move from one idea to the next. Ne is more divergent and expansive in nature than its introverted cousin, Ni. NPs feel compelled to outwardly explore all the options and possibilities, making it difficult for them to draw firm conclusions or make confident decisions. The divergent nature of Ne explains why NPs often seem random, distractible, quirky, or flighty. Ne types use their Si to recall what has been and then use their Ne to envision what could be. This orientation toward future possibilities gives Ne types a good nose for inventing, marketing, entrepreneurship, politics, journalism, etc.

    Introverted Intuition (Ni)

    NJ types use Introverted Intuition (Ni) as their dominant or auxiliary function. Unlike Ne, which expands the number of options or possibilities, Ni tends to work more convergently, producing a more singular and comprehensive vision or solution. The convergent capacities of Ni provides NJs a greater sense of confidence and conviction in moving forward, contributing to their effectiveness as theorists, leaders, problem solvers, and advisers. INJs often think by way of images rather than words. Their intuitions may manifest as gut feelings, hunches, symbols, dreams, or imagery. Because Ni does much of its work subconsciously, it is sometimes perceived as having a certain magical or prophetic quality. But Ni need not be considered in any way magical or mystical. Ni intuitions are generated from information provided by NJs’ other functions, particularly their Se, which gathers concrete data from the immediate environment that serves as raw material for their Ni. Like working a puzzle, Ni synthesizes Se pieces of information and generates an intuitive impression or interpretation of what is happening, as well as a sense of what might happen next. For more on Ne-Ni differences, see this post.
    Extraverted Feeling (Fe)

    FJ types use Extraverted Feeling (Fe) as their dominant or auxiliary function. FJs, especially EFJs, are quick to outwardly express their feelings, opinions, and grievances. Fe plays a prominent role in attuning to and empathizing with others’ emotions. It allows FJs to recreate another’s emotion state within themselves, allowing them to literally feel what the other person is feeling. FJs also work to meet others’ needs and to maintain harmony in the external environment. They ensure that everyone is getting along and is well cared for. At the same time, since Fe is an Extraverted Judging function, there are times when FJs are compelled to sacrifice external harmony for the sake of asserting their judgments. FJs also enjoy giving counsel and advice, especially with regard to people-related matters.

    Introverted Feeling (Fi)

    All FP types use Introverted Feeling (Fi) as their dominant or auxiliary function. Fi is directed inwardly, navigating and managing personal feelings and values on a largely independent basis. While Fe turns to others for emotional support and kinship, Fi deals with emotions more independently. When IFPs do opt to outwardly express their feelings and values, they often do so indirectly—through active (S), creative (N), or rational (Te) means. Fi also inspires FPs types to help the underserved. They can commonly be found helping the sick, the needy, children, and animals. They love to rescue those in need, such as by adopting pets from animal shelters. Moreover, Fi works to shape its own worldview—a personalized system of values—that can serve as a platform for self-understanding and decision-making. As is the case with TPs, this self-understanding grants FPs a strong sense of inner control. While FPs (especially IFPs) may feel they have little control over other people, they feel confident in regulating their own feelings, values, and actions.
    Extraverted Intuition (Ne) vs. Introverted Intuition (Ni)

    By Dr. A.J. Drenth
    Intuition is sometimes described as a “sixth sense.” Unlike logical or deductive methods, it is a means of knowing without being able to explain exactly how one arrived at that point of understanding. Hence, the “how” of intuition is in many ways concealed from the knower; it’s workings are largely unconscious. Consequently, in a way similar to sensations, there is a sense in which intuitions have the character of being “given” rather than consciously developed.

    Within the Myers-Briggs taxonomy, Intuition takes on a more specific meaning. In addition to relying more heavily on non-conscious, non-rational ways of knowing, dominant Intuitives (INFJs/INTJs & ENFPs/ENTPs) differ from types with a dominant Judging function (i.e., IPs & EJs) in their preference for a more open and passive (i.e., Perceiving) mode of existence. Assuming they are not constrained by outside obligations, Intuitives are not inclined to readily impose rules or agendas on themselves. Their natural inclination is to start the day in a leisurely, open, and receptive manner (this is even true of IJs). They differ from IPs and EJs in this respect, who often start off with goals, intentions, or at least a sense that they “should” be doing something (i.e., engaging their rational Judging process).


    According to both Jung and Myers-Briggs, there are two varieties of Intuition:Extraverted Intuition (Ne) and Introverted Intuition (Ni). Because they both include the general characteristics of Intuition described above, many people struggle to differentiate between the two.

    To understand Jung’s distinctions between these two functions, it helps to have a background understanding of his view of Introversion and Extraversion. Jung saw Extraversion as expansive and broad. We often generalize Extraverts as having a relatively limited attention span, moving from here to there with little sustained focus on any one thing. Their interactions are often viewed as more superficial, opting for breadth rather than depth. In contrast, Jung viewed Introversion as more intensive and focused. Rather than expanding outward, the Introvert dives deeper.

    In this light, Extraverted Intuition can be considered more expansive and less intensive than Introverted Intuition. Ne types (ENPs) generally display a greater breadth of hobbies and extraverted activities than Ni dominants. ENPs also tend to be more random and scattered in their ideation. Whereas INJs are known to reel off relatively cohesive and streamlined monologues, ENPs tend to bounce around from one subject to the next. While Ne generates myriad options and possibilities (what I have called “brainstorming aloud”), Ni is more convergent, often producing a single coherent answer or solution. Granted, part of this may be attributed to the fact that INJs’ extravert their Judging process (Fe or Te) as opposed to ENPs’ extraversion of Intuition. But the fact remains that, by nature of its introversion, Ni takes on a more focused and intensive quality than typically seen in Ne. The more divergent and expansive nature of Ne may partially explain why P-types have been characterized as avoiding “closure” (although I feel this is best applied to EP types, whose dominant function is a Perceiving function).

    The openness and expansiveness of Extraverted Intuition can also be seen as fueling ENPs’ resistance to static conceptual frameworks. Assuming they are not being heavily influenced by their inferior function (Si), which pushes for a more static or traditional worldview, ENPs tend to prefer more fluid ways of processing and understanding things. ENP philosophers like Henri Bergson, Michael Foucault, and William James, for instance, felt that philosophies built on deductions and static concepts could never accurately capture the essential nature of reality. Unsurprisingly, they both emphasized percepts (Ne) as being more trustworthy and reliable than the concepts and elaborate frameworks promulgated by other philosophers.


    INTJs and INFJs, by contrast, tend to be more comfortable with working with static concepts and conceptual frameworks. In doing so, INJs are not intentionally closing off their minds. Rather, as we’ve seen, Introverted Intuition, by its very nature, seems to be more convergent and dare I say, analytical, then Ne. One might even suggest, as Lenore Thomson has, that Ni has a stronger left-brained character than Ne does. Hence, INJs are generally more comfortable working with deduction, concepts, and static/”eternal” ideas. Both Plato and Jung are classic examples.

    Because of their reluctance to endorse static concepts, ENTPs and ENFPs are often drawn to historical and contextual studies. Historical studies allow ENPs to explore ideas more broadly and fluidly. Rather than working with static concepts or focusing on linear causation, ENPs prefer to examine contextual factors and contingencies that influence the nature and trajectory of ideas. Many French philosophers of history, such as Michael Foucault, aptly embody this more open-ended, contextual approach to knowledge. This also explains why many ENPs are drawn to professions such as journalism, which allow them to explore ideas in a more fluid and contextual fashion.
    INFJs’ Dominant Function: Introverted Intuition (Ni)

    Intuition is generally considered a subconscious process. It is often contrasted with more conscious types of rational thought. Because Intuition is commonly associated with the unconscious, it is often thought to have a certain magical quality, capable of delivering comprehensive answers or solutions suddenly—“out of the blue.”
    One of the central features of Intuition is its capacity to synthesize information. It is sensitive to patterns and similarities, quickly seeing connections among disparate pieces of data. By seeing how everything is connected and interrelated, it is capable of discerning universal laws and structures.

    What is interesting about types with dominant Intuition, including INFJs, is that this Intuitive process, which for non-Intuitives is largely unconscious, is more accessible and observable in consciousness. This seems particularly true for INTJs and INFJs, whose Intuition is directly inwardly rather than being fused with the outside world. INJs have the good fortune of witnessing and consciously participating in a mysterious process which for other types is entirely unconscious.

    Because Ni affords INFJs a more intimate relationship with the workings of what most people call the subconscious mind, INFJs’ routine existence often assumes a sort of dreamlike quality. For INFJs, there is less of a distinction between their ordinary waking state and the experience of sleep. At times, this can make it difficult to separate dream from reality, making nightmares all the more disturbing for this type. It is little wonder that many INJs, including Jung himself, find dream analysis so intriguing and important.
    Because of their ready access to subconscious or subliminal information, INFJs are commonly viewed as profound, insightful, and sometimes even psychic or prophetic. While not diminishing the unique capacities of INFJs, Ni can be rational, non-magical terms.

    In order to understand Ni, it is first necessary to understand INFJ’s inferior function, Extraverted Sensing (Se). For INFJs, Se functions subconsciously and is constantly gathering copious amounts of sensory information from the environment. Meanwhile, their Ni is constantly working to process and synthesize this incoming data, like assembling pieces of a puzzle. Eventually, it manages to construct an impression or vision of what is happening. Because other types are not privy to the workings of this Ni-Se processing loop, it can seem as though INFJs’ insights are magical or divinely inspired. In reality, INFJs cannot see the future, but are simply more skilled than most at accurately discerning what is happening in a given situation. This allows them to better envision what how things might unfold should they continue along their current course. This ability to accurately “see” is why INFJs are sometimes described as prophets or seers.

    It is often said that human beings rely more heavily on vision than we do our other senses. This seems especially true of INFJs, who often ascribe a strong visual element to their Ni. INFJs often “think” by way of images rather than words. Their intuitions often manifest in the form of symbols, images, dreams, or patterns. This is consistent with Jung’s characterization of the Ni type as a dreamer or seer. There is a distinct visual character to these notions, which is why vision-related terms—foresight, insight, seer, visionary, etc.—are invariably used in describing INFJs. The visual nature of Ni might also tie into INFJs’ inferior Se, which is also a highly visual function. The difference is that Se is attuned to the specifics and details of the environment, whereas Ni is more concerned with forming an impression or theory of what is happening based on the totality of incoming sensory information.

    INFJs’ propensity for processing information visually may contribute to one of their signature strengths: reconciling opposites. One advantage of visual processing is it doesn’t have the same rules or impediments of verbal processing. In some cases, problems may be better solved by employing images or symbols rather than by other means. It should not surprise us that Jung himself hailed the value of imagery and symbols. For Jung, symbols were critical for dealing with paradoxes, including the challenge of reconciling opposing psychological functions, which he dubbed “the type problem.”

    INFJs’ Auxiliary Function: Extraverted Feeling (Fe)

    INFJs use Extraverted Feeling (Fe) as their auxiliary function. As the most interpersonal of all the functions, Fe is attuned to surveying and improving interpersonal feelings and morale. Like other FJ types, INFJs work to cultivate “good feelings” in the interpersonal environment. In order to survey others’ feelings, Fe contributes to INFJs’ ability to read emotional expressions and body language. This, in combination with their Se and Ni, allow them to effectively read, understand, and relate to others.
    Interestingly, INFJs can have a more difficult time with perceiving and understanding their own emotions. This is due to the fact that their Feeling function is directed outwardly (i.e., extraverted) rather than inwardly. Unlike INFPs, whose Feeling function is introverted (Fi), INFJs are less equipped to manage their emotions independently. Inwardly, they deal in the currency of Intuition (Ni) and Thinking (Ti). Hence, when INFJs find themselves in emotionally taxing circumstances, they often turn to others for aid and support.

    Fe also entails an extraversion of judgment. INFJs utilize their Fe to express their thoughts, feelings, opinions, and grievances. Fe gives voice and shape to INFJs’ feelings and intuitions. In many cases, INFJs do not know fully understand the nature of an Ni insight until given the opportunity to verbalize it. They may have a hunch or a gut feeling, but the content of the intuition can remain somewhat nebulous until it is expressed via their Fe. Assuming they have not been severely censored in their upbringing, INFJs are generally happy to share their feelings and perspectives. In fact, given the right opportunity, INFJs will often talk at length about their feelings and intuitions. Unlike FP types, who generally prefer a more dialogical format, INFJs are inclined toward monologues, which allow them to fully flesh out their ideas on a certain topic.
    INFJs’ Fe can present differently among strangers than it does with their intimates. In larger groups, INFJs may seem consistently cheery as part of their attempt to cultivate good feelings. Many INFJs have a good sense of humor and can be funny and engaging. Enlisting their vivid imaginations and knack for metaphor, they can also make good storytellers. In the company of close confidants, however, INFJs use their Fe to be more open and direct with their grievances. Since some INFJs feel like tortured souls, their commentary may take on a characteristically negative tone. They may seem moody, pessimistic, discontented, or restless. They can also seem fairly intense in their communication when infused with the emotion of Fe. Consequently, their expressions can seem exaggerated, dramatic, or irrational, especially to Thinking types. They differ in this respect from INFPs, who are less disposed to melodrama in their verbiage. INFJs can also be susceptible to self-pity and self-loathing, seeing themselves as victims. They may curse the fact that life isn’t fair, feeling that they always end up with the short end of the stick.

    For INFJs, expressing themselves through their Fe is critical to their psychological and physical health and well-being. Even if doing so does not provide them with immediate solutions to the problem at hand, they tend to feel better once they have expressed their feelings, whether through words or tears. This is especially important for the mates or friends of INFJs to recognize. While not necessarily looking for others to solve their problems, INFJs value emotional support, empathy, and reassurance. Without such an outlet, INFJs can begin to feel isolated and depressed, turning to their inner fantasy world as a means of escape. And while fantasizing may seem helpful in the short-term, it can make the real world seem even less tolerable and exacerbate existing frustrations toward life.

    Even if not to the same extent as EFJs, INFJs can be warm, welcoming, loyal, giving, and self-sacrificing. At the same time, as Introverts, they need time to themselves to recharge their proverbial batteries. This creates an ongoing, even lifelong, struggle for INFJs, trying to balance their own needs and desires with those of others.
    INFJs commonly experience a conflict in values between their Ni and Fe. For example, they may be asked by a friend or relative to donate to a cause they don’t believe in. This puts them in the difficult position of deciding between honoring their own perspectives (Ni) or maintaining the harmony of the relationship (Fe). Since INFJs can having difficulty saying no, they will often opt to oblige others, even while inwardly regretting doing so. INFJs may experience similar issues in school. INFJs are disposed to questioning the veracity of what the teacher or other students are saying, not to mention issues of character. At the same time, however, they want to please the teacher and maintain external harmony. This can leave them feeling torn between allegiance to truth (Ni) versus Fe people-pleasing.

    Because of the strength of their Fe, INFJs need to be careful not to abandon their Ni in the face of outward pressures. Since Ni is their best and most reliable compass for navigating life, when they lost track of it, INFJs can easily feel lost, restless, and frustrated. Hence, when it comes to decision-making, INFJs are wise to listen primarily to their own inner voice.
    @Sol if you care to weigh in please do. I know it is a lot of English to read and it might take forever to translate. You are someone who goes strictly by the 4 letters and make no allowances for the different function stacks in MBTI and Socionics.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    I didn't mean to mark it NSFW.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Ofc Subteigh and Maritsa test as INFJ (probably a very high percentage of J in fact), rationality and irrationality have the same definition in both systems. EII's are very often e1 or something to do with 1 wing, so they shouldn't be testing P in mbti by any logic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Ofc Subteigh and Maritsa test as INFJ (probably a very high percentage of J in fact), rationality and irrationality have the same definition in both systems. EII's are very often e1 or something to do with 1 wing, so they shouldn't be testing P in mbti by any logic.
    The j/p thing is enough to drive me crazy. lol I can go either way but mostly hovering on the line. It really depends on what I am focusing on (also why I can hover the line on f/t sometimes) I used to have this discussion with Olly about rationality/irrationality. We argued who was the more rational. I am not sure if it is meant the same (dictionary definition) as in MBTI or socionics?

    I am primarily interested in their responses to the quotes below. I am pretty sure Jeremy identifies with the behavioral descriptions but I might have misunderstood him.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    The j/p thing is enough to drive me crazy. lol I can go either way but mostly hovering on the line. It really depends on what I am focusing on (also why I can hover the line on f/t sometimes) I used to have this discussion with Olly about rationality/irrationality. We argued who was the more rational. I am not sure if it is meant the same (dictionary definition)as in MBTI or socionics?
    Yeah, lots of people are in between and can test both, depending on how they see themselves in the moment (also, certain NJs can have many irrational traits compared to SJ's). Test are not bullet-proof because people can be higly delusional about themselves (I would know since I've typed myself 9w1 for a whole year lol). My EIE mom for example always tests ISFJ in mbti, which is hilariously wrong. Tha woman is the most delusional person when it comes to self-assessment. My IEI friend tests INFJ with 1 or 2 % and my EII friend tests INFJ with 95% J.

    From my perspective, everything about you is irrational, so you're clearly IEI and Ni leading Everything about for example subt on the other hand is rational.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    My mom is ILI. I've said before that Ni is a prophesy function. It does indeed reduce actions to inevitable event thus creating urgency of action With that you have someone like my mom calling me up and following up obsessively to do something or get something done I find it pushy, annoying, and critical "you never get things done on time, and you're always late" these are the common criticism by Ni types.

    I'm obviously not like my mom. I don't see doom and end of the world when someone doesn't fulfill their plans. And most importantly I don't criticize them for it. You know how many times I've been flaked on and plans cancelled on me? Lol I may get mad at the moment then let it go. That doesn't become the balm of the person for me.

    I don't forecast doom. If the person forgets I think of the next possible way the event can be redeemed.
    For example if they didn't pay their bills and resulted in fines I'll think of a way to reduce the fine or pay it off and never mention it again.

    If it happens habitually I will say "let's make a time every Wednesday to do this" that way it becomes a routine.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    My mom is ILI. I've said before that Ni is a prophesy function. It does indeed reduce actions to inevitable event thus creating urgency of action With that you have someone like my mom calling me up and following up obsessively to do something or get something done I find it pushy, annoying, and critical "you never get things done on time, and you're always late" these are the common criticism by Ni types.

    I'm obviously not like my mom. I don't see doom and end of the world when someone doesn't fulfill their plans. And most importantly I don't criticize them for it. You know how many times I've been flaked on and plans cancelled on me? Lol I may get mad at the moment then let it go. That doesn't become the balm of the person for me.

    I don't forecast doom. If the person forgets I think of the next possible way the event can be redeemed.
    For example if they didn't pay their bills and resulted in fines I'll think of a way to reduce the fine or pay it off and never mention it again.

    If it happens habitually I will say "let's make a time every Wednesday to do this" that way it becomes a routine.
    not sure if you're still around, but wanted to say I don't think your mom is ILI

    the reason I say this is even though ILIs predict negative results, that doesn't mean they will have urgency of action & start pushing people to do something

    I think seeing doom and end of the world when someone doesn't fulfill their plans is actually a sign of weak Ni as it is too simplistic & limited and ILI don't really hurry as they know what they should do & how long would each task takes, in other words they know if they can or can't make it in time so why hurry?
    also Se in ILIs is weak so they aren't that good in being pushy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    all self typed EII/INFjs/INFJ. I have seen you three self-type INFJ in MBTI so I am curious why. How do you guys relate to Ni? and Fe in the INFJ?
    If they type themselves as INFJ/EII it does not mean their type is such. The better way is to type people by yourself (in case you trust yourself as a typer) and then ask them.
    I disagree that Maritsa's type is INFJ, more probably she's ENFJ. Jeremy is doubtful to be INFJ. About Subteigh I know not too much, but he may to be unsure about his type.

    > IEI/EII behavioral descriptions are a combination of INFJ/INFP

    INFJ/INFP descriptions in MBT are a combination of EII/IEI
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    If they type themselves as INFJ/EII it does not mean their type is such. The better way is to type people by yourself (in case you trust yourself as a typer) and then ask them.
    I disagree that Maritsa's type is INFJ, more probably she's ENFJ. Jeremy is doubtful to be INFJ. About Subteigh I know not too much, but he may to be unsure about his type.

    > IEI/EII behavioral descriptions are a combination of INFJ/INFP

    INFJ/INFP descriptions in MBT are a combination of EII/IEI
    You don't read. You just don't read
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    If they type themselves as INFJ/EII it does not mean their type is such. The better way is to type people by yourself (in case you trust yourself as a typer) and then ask them.
    I disagree that Maritsa's type is INFJ, more probably she's ENFJ. Jeremy is doubtful to be INFJ. About Subteigh I know not too much, but he may to be unsure about his type.

    > IEI/EII behavioral descriptions are a combination of INFJ/INFP

    INFJ/INFP descriptions in MBT are a combination of EII/IEI
    I didn't ask you to comment on their types. I wanted your opinion on the quotes if you felt you were able to translate and give useful information. I am interested in why you do not type by function.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Can you please not ever call me and sol to the same thread again I've decided that I will no longer contribute to his threads and @Sol don't contribute to mine. The stress that you are causing and have caused in me has over exceeded it due.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    What's functions have to do with MBTI? It's an assessment. You take it, and it groups you into one of 16 groups with commonalities in behavior patterns. There's no rationale behind my MBTI typing, I'm simply most similar to a type in my behaviors or I am not.

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    Okay, I skimmed until I got bored. Everywhere it says "divergent" and "diverging" replace with "asking." "converging" and "convergent" with "declaring." Everywhere it says "unconscious," "subconscious," "preconscious," and all the -ly versions, replace with "vital." Those are the definitions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    What's functions have to do with MBTI? It's an assessment. You take it, and it groups you into one of 16 groups with commonalities in behavior patterns. There's no rationale behind my MBTI typing, I'm simply most similar to a type in my behaviors or I am not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    Okay, I skimmed until I got bored. Everywhere it says "divergent" and "diverging" replace with "asking." "converging" and "convergent" with "declaring." Everywhere it says "unconscious," "subconscious," "preconscious," and all the -ly versions, replace with "vital." Those are the definitions.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Whaaaaaaat? I could go through and mark those up line-by-line showing the connections between the two systems, but it's too difficult and time consuming on my phone, because UBB code I have to do manually in a text editor.

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    @Aylen, both systems don't really come together, they don't make sense. You can't be J and Ni-dom, cause Ni is an irrational function. Just type by socionics and don't bother with MBTI cause it's incorrect for introverted types. The functions are also described diferently - socionics is much closer to original Jung.

    Imo both systems describe the same 16 people, but MBTI describes and ascribes functions incorrectly - if you read Jung, it would be clear that Fi-dominant people can only be rational, thus J. And when Jung describes Introverted Intuitive types, it's clear that these people are IEI and ILI and IP in temperament and Irrational. They also describe Fe and Fi differently etc. You cannot win in both systems - if you type yourself IEI/INFJ it's incorrect cause you're either rational or irrational, can't be both (and either IP or IJ) and if you type IEI/INFP, than the supposed fucnctions won't match up. The type describtions themselves are an unfortanate mixture of both types and bullshiting (ass-kissing) most of the time (socionics descriptions are much better and actually make sense when you compare them to Jung).Just let it go and embrace socionics only, gurl

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    For INFJs, expressing themselves through their Fe is critical to their psychological and physical health and well-being. Even if doing so does not provide them with immediate solutions to the problem at hand, they tend to feel better once they have expressed their feelings, whether through words or tears. This is especially important for the mates or friends of INFJs to recognize. While not necessarily looking for others to solve their problems, INFJs value emotional support, empathy, and reassurance. Without such an outlet, INFJs can begin to feel isolated and depressed, turning to their inner fantasy world as a means of escape. And while fantasizing may seem helpful in the short-term, it can make the real world seem even less tolerable and exacerbate existing frustrations toward life.

    I relate to this part although. I don't seek to change the emotional atmosphere though like charm and flirt like EIE may do. I seek to unload pent up stress and sadness. I'm thinking that EIE or ESE seek an escape faster than I do
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    @Aylen

    I do not consider my identification with INFJ (in MBTI) to be wholly satisfactory. It partly depends on whether the test/descriptions are determined in terms of functions, or in terms of I vs. E scales. It also depends on the extent to which the descriptions make associated with the supernatural etc., as well as the extent the overall description describes "rational" (i.e. Judging traits). I'm not sure which test you saw me get INFJ on (although you are correct that I have scored it, perhaps even most recently: it is possible even that I determine this as most likely after an analysis of several MBTI sites, but I do not recall).

    I consider that in a fair fight between INFJ and INFP (i.e. INFJ vs. INFP) that naturally, neither side would win, as they have Gifts Differing, and war of course is ultimately futile. I may ben able to give a fuller response another time.

    In briefs, the functions you quoted in your post seem rather synthetic to me (and I do not mean that in a good way: I do not have a problem with synthesis in the field of pharmacology for example). They seem garbled, unnatural to me, not human, or perhaps, not the insight of someone who has introspectively written well about how they are (e.g. it describes outward signs of what people with that function do, rather than how they perceive they operate internally). Also, the functions are frequently described by comparing to other functions, which is not helpful, at least not as a primary focus of description. Perhaps this is perception is further exacerbated by the MBTI terminology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    @Aylen (for reference):
    What test is this?

    enneagram 946/947

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lola View Post
    What test is this?
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ity-Types-Test

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    and all self typed EII/INFjs/INFJ
    I started out with EII. I considered it an alright fit with my knowledge back then (also given the fact that I type as E1). Problem is that it doesn’t really fit. I’m clearly a decisive type. Eliminates EII and LII. Leaves ESI and LSI. I have no idea how Ne Polr plays out in myself/affects me. But what was more important to me and what really eliminated these types for me was that I read about Dynamic vs Static. I’m Dynamic. I personally understood ‚irrationality‘ as tied to Ne/Si, Ni/Se in the sense that you cannot explain them. They are not a weighting process, following a certain ‚rationale‘. I mean how does Intuition follow a ‚rationale‘. It doesn’t. But from what I understand in the context of MBTI/Socionics people use ‚irrational‘ ‚rational‘ somewhat along the lines of ‚organized‘ vs. ‚disorganized‘.

    Like ‚judging‘ traits being punctual etc. and ‚irrational‘ (to come back to the topic of the thread) as e.g. INFp being more ‚irrational‘ than INFj. Like disorganized or whatever. It‘s also kinda funny how this discussion comes up heavily regarding MBTI INFJ/INFP and INFj/INFp (like every single month or so) but less so for LII and ILI. Like describing ILIs as ‚irrational‘. I personally have concluded from reading threads and looking at general tendencies, that have remained over time, that I will go with Ni base (Ni>Si) and ILI>IEI (because of the Reinin dichotomies). I mean if the typing police shows up at my door. Is cool. We can discuss it out. But well the problem is, if the shoe doesn’t fit, I cannot wear it. I personally see this ‚organized‘ stuff not as part of your ‚information metabolism‘. Also you could attribute it to NPA P-Trait or whatever...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    You are someone who goes strictly by the 4 letters and make no allowances for the different function stacks in MBTI and Socionics.
    According to what I've said there with more probability you'd be typed as INFP in MBT, not INFJ. And in Socionics you are IEI. Same situation is with pinoline, which was typed as INFP and fits to IEI description, not EII.
    Hence, with theory and practice - it's not appropriate to make INFP -> EII conversion.

    I see the situation rather obvious and arguments of opponents as so weak, that it's joke to discuss them seriously.
    EII = INFJ, IEI = INFP

    nothing to add

    And just to distinguish between EII and IEI will help that.
    Last edited by Sol; 09-20-2017 at 09:17 PM.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    According to what I've said there with more probability you'd be typed as INFP in MBT, not INFJ. And in Socionics you are IEI. Same situation is with pinoline, which was typed as INFP and fits to IEI description, not EII.
    Hence, with theory and practice - it's not appropriate to make INFP -> EII conversion.

    I see the situation rather obvious and arguments of opponents as so weak, that it's joke to discuss them seriously.
    EII = INFJ, IEI = IEI

    nothing to add
    This is an old thread but I have given up on MBTI tests or conversions. I was always on the line between the j/p and t/f in them anyway. I still like the tests like these though.

    http://www.keys2cognition.com/explore.htm

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I still like the tests like these though.

    http://www.keys2cognition.com/explore.htm
    nice it also gives the 4 temperaments as well

     

    Your Cognitive Development Profile
    The forty-eight questions you rated earlier tap into the eight cognitive processes. Some questions tapped into basic or developed use of a process used by itself, while other questions tapped into use of multiple processes at once. The profile below is based on your responses. The number of squares indicate strength of response. The equivalent numeric is shown in parentheses along with likely level of development.

    Cognitive Process Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)
    extraverted Sensing (Se) ****************** (18.2)
    limited use
    introverted Sensing (Si) ******************************** (32.1)
    good use
    extraverted Intuiting (Ne) *************************** (27.2)
    average use
    introverted Intuiting (Ni) ********************************** (34.1)
    good use
    extraverted Thinking (Te) ************************************** (38.3)
    excellent use
    introverted Thinking (Ti) *************************************** (39.3)
    excellent use
    extraverted Feeling (Fe) ******************** (20.9)
    limited use
    introverted Feeling (Fi) ****************************** (30.1)
    good use
    Summary Analysis of Profile
    By focusing on the strongest configuration of cognitive processes, your pattern of responses most closely matches individuals of this type: INTJ
    Lead (Dominant) Process
    Introverted Intuiting (Ni): Transforming with a meta-perspective. Withdrawing from the world and focusing your mind to receive an insight or realization. Checking if synergy results. Trying out a realization to transform things.

    Support (Auxilliary) Process
    Extraverted Thinking (Te): Measuring and constructing for progress. Making decisions objectively based on evidence and measures. Checking if things function properly. Applying a procedure to control events and complete goals.
    If these cognitive processes don't fit well then consider these types: ENTJ, or ISTJ

    If these results are different from what you know of yourself, you might consider why your developmental pattern does not align with your expectation. You might also consider exploring this result as a possible better fit.

    The Four Temperaments
    Corresponding best-fit temperaments based on your profile: Theorist; secondly Stabilizer; then Catalyst; and lastly, Improviser.
    To read more about the four temperaments click here.

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    Here are some archetypes that might help you negotiate the two:

    IEI = Mystic/Oracle

    EII = Idealist/Activist

    Ni lead gives IEI a much more detached and mysterious air than EII, which being Fi lead is both openly emotional and directed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuivienen View Post
    Here are some archetypes that might help you negotiate the two:

    IEI = Mystic/Oracle

    EII = Idealist/Activist

    Ni lead gives IEI a much more detached and mysterious air than EII, which being Fi lead is both openly emotional and directed.
    I think she is asking how do these 3 mentioned in the OP identify with Ni in MBTI but with Fi in socionics? not how to tell the types apart

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simo View Post
    I think she is asking how do these 3 mentioned in the OP identify with Ni in MBTI but with Fi in socionics? not how to tell the types apart
    Yep, I was curious how they related to the Ni as lead function but typed EII.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Yep, I was curious how they related to the Ni as lead function but typed EII.
    I still don't understand why did you start this thread under the "anything goes" forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Jeremy ( mentions don't work)
    and what do you mean mentions don't work? it doesn't work for him always or just in this thread?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simo View Post
    I still don't understand why did you start this thread under the "anything goes" forum?

    and what do you mean mentions don't work? it doesn't work for him always or just in this thread?
    Hmm, I don't remember why I put it here now but I must have had a good reason.

    The mentions didn't work on his name because he was a restricted user at the time, maybe.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Hmm, I don't remember why I put it here now but I must have had a good reason.
    I wouldn't be so sure if I were you

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    I don't think it's good to use MBTI as a example for socionics. I'm a clear cut INFP in MBTI which would make me EII in socionics and that's not quite the case.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    I don't think it's good to use MBTI as a example for socionics. I'm a clear cut INFP in MBTI which would make me EII in socionics and that's not quite the case.
    since you're so sure of your MBTI typing would you mind to tell me how did you get typed? tests using dichotomies? cognitive functions? or by reading type descriptions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simo View Post
    since you're so sure of your MBTI typing would you mind to tell me how did you get typed? tests using dichotomies? cognitive functions? or by reading type descriptions?
    All of the three you've metioned, plus I've been a member of Typologycentral since 2013 and perc since 2011. I've been into MBTI waaaaaaayyyyyyy longer than socionics. I've read studies of Myers and her mother Briggs about creating dichotomies based on Jungian work. I've read Jung's Psychological Types, Dario Nardi's cognitive functions and other info about Jungian psychology that I've found during years of my studies.
    I've taken the first MBTI test 7 years ago scoring as an ENFP and later when I learnt about Jungian approach to intoversion/extroversion and Fi vs. Ne I've decided to change my type to INFP. Now when it comes to test I only score as an INFP, occasionally INTP.

    But MBTI is not interesting for me anymore, because after som many years of reading about every articles I could found online, I finally feel like there's nothing more I could learn about my type so I moved on into socionics. And I don't fool around when I say I spent 7 years on that... I get very fanatical about things that interest me and I never know the right time to stop.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    All of the three you've metioned, plus I've been a member of Typologycentral since 2013 and perc since 2011. I've been into MBTI waaaaaaayyyyyyy longer than socionics. I've read studies of Myers and her mother Briggs about creating dichotomies based on Jungian work. I've read Jung's Psychological Types, Dario Nardi's cognitive functions and other info about Jungian psychology that I've found during years of my studies.
    I've taken the first MBTI test 7 years ago scoring as an ENFP and later when I learnt about Jungian approach to intoversion/extroversion and Fi vs. Ne I've decided to change my type to INFP. Now when it comes to test I only score as an INFP, occasionally INTP.

    But MBTI is not interesting for me anymore, because after som many years of reading about every articles I could found online, I finally feel like there's nothing more I could learn about my type so I moved on into socionics. And I don't fool around when I say I spent 7 years on that... I get very fanatical about things that interest me and I never know the right time to stop.
    I think I should call you Owl-senpai from now on then

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simo View Post
    I think I should call you Owl-senpai from now on then
    I guess asking questions and insulting people when they answer you is sort of your thing


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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    I'm a clear cut INFP in MBTI which would make me EII in socionics
    In adequate Socionics your MBT INFP type is IEI, as you may see. I've exaplained the theory why it's so.

    While how MBT interpret Jung's functions - no one cares, as 1) Socionics has own interpretation of _same functions_ (core theory of functions is same anywhere) which is better developed, 2) MBT uses functions only as secondary way to type.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    In adequate Socionics your MBT INFP type is IEI, as you may see. I've exaplained the theory why it's so.

    While how MBT interpret Jung's functions - no one cares, as 1) Socionics has own interpretation of _same functions_ (core theory of functions is same anywhere) which is better developed, 2) MBT uses functions only as secondary way to type.
    I agree, but in MBTI I don't only go by dichotomues. I honestly relate to their definition of Fi very much, but socionics Fi is something I cannot really connect to.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    I agree, but in MBTI I don't only go by dichotomues.
    They use them so few and they are so badly described that their followers still can't notice the using of wrong model for introverted types. That impression can be explaned by too muddy using of functions.
    On your example you see that conversion is to IEI, anyway. What fits to my theoretical explanation of what is expected in most of cases.

    > I honestly relate to their definition of Fi very much, but socionics Fi is something I cannot really connect to.

    Fi is same in Socionics. But as in MBT they try to keep results of MBTI in 70-80% of cases, they littlely use functions on practice, so defects in their _expanded_ functions descriptions are not clear for them.
    Also even with better Socionics descriptions it happens not always clear what variant of functions is in your ego (I myself could to understand am I LSE or LSI without IR).
    The initial sense of Fi - personal emotional relation of a man to something, his subjective sympathy. Expanded interpretation in Socionics is that understanding of own sympathy is linked with abbility and interest in understanding of such in other people, and hence valueing emotional comfort as social value.
    The initial sense of Fe - social/group emotional relation to something. Expanded interpretation is also emotions to affect on others, to motivate them to do something, to keep their general emotional state.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    EII and IEI are such different types. Its best to focus on the natural types, the actual types.

    There is really no confusion about this. One is Fi base and the other is Ni base.

    Socionics gives us all the hints we need to figure this out.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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