Do you believe in God?

[Jeremy8419]

I believe in appleyacks.

Ever had an actual conversation with God?

[applejacks]

I believe in appleyacks.

Ever had an actual conversation with God?

I meant to reply to this awhile back and got sidetracked. I talk with God all the time. He doesn't speak back through burning bushes, but He does speak. I hear Him when I read scripture, and sometimes I hear Him when I'm running or praying. I remember the first time I heard Him, in fact.

I had climbed the Peak, which is a local mountain hike that overlooks five states: Tennessee, Kentucky, North Carolina, Virginia, and West Virginia. I sat on the top of the mountain and decided to meditate / pray, whatever. I wanted to do something "spiritual", although I wasn't really Christian at the time. I always loved reading about and contemplating eastern religions and studies.

So I sat in the stillness, overlooking the mountains and trees. I heard a voice, soft, still, and quiet in the corners of my heart.

SEEK

I don't know how to explain it. The word almost echoed around me - not audibly, but internally - as if my heart mirrored the acoustics of the valleys all around me.

I came down the mountain and was still confused over what had happened. I was moved to find a Bible. I hadn't opened a Bible in years at that time. I didn't have one, so I downloaded an app that had some random 30 day Bible study. I opened to the first page, and there was Jeremiah 29:13 at the top of the page:

"You will seek me and you will find me
when you seek me with all of your heart."

That scripture is the same scripture that my mother made and framed with needlepoint on the day that I was born. It's the same scripture that I opened to directly the next time I sat down in a church and opened a Bible for the first time.

This is just a small excerpt of many conversations and things that only fuel and ignite my faith.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

I meant to reply to this awhile back and got sidetracked. I talk with God all the time. He doesn't speak back through burning bushes, but He does speak. I hear Him when I read scripture, and sometimes I hear Him when I'm running or praying. I remember the first time I heard Him, in fact.

I had climbed the Peak, which is a local mountain hike that overlooks five states: Tennessee, Kentucky, North Carolina, Virginia, and West Virginia. I sat on the top of the mountain and decided to meditate / pray, whatever. I wanted to do something "spiritual", although I wasn't really Christian at the time. I always loved reading about and contemplating eastern religions and studies.

So I sat in the stillness, overlooking the mountains and trees. I heard a voice, soft, still, and quiet in the corners of my heart.

SEEK

I don't know how to explain it. The word almost echoed around me - not audibly, but internally - as if my heart mirrored the acoustics of the valleys all around me.

I came down the mountain and was still confused over what had happened. I was moved to find a Bible. I hadn't opened a Bible in years at that time. I didn't have one, so I downloaded an app that had some random 30 day Bible study. I opened to the first page, and there was Jeremiah 29:13 at the top of the page:

"You will seek me and you will find me
when you seek me with all of your heart."

That scripture is the same scripture that my mother made and framed with needlepoint on the day that I was born. It's the same scripture that I opened to directly the next time I sat down in a church and opened a Bible for the first time.

This is just a small excerpt of many conversations and things that only fuel and ignite my faith.

I think there is a real danger with ideologies that say things like "Seek and ye shall find". There are many competing religions that say words to that effect, and they cannot all be true (they could indeed all be false): I think that kind of mantra is objectionable itself, but is basically geared to indoctrinating people. If the religion does not respect those who don't actually find anything, after years of searching, or if it does not respect those who find an answer that is contrary to the tenets of the religion, what value does the statement have?

You quote Corinthians, which says that Love "is not self-seeking" (amongst other things), but this seems contrary to a religious text which tells you that god is a jealous god, that you must worship god, that you must seek and find him (rather than the other way round), that god is Love, that you must fear and love god, etc.

[applejacks]

I think there is a real danger with ideologies that say things like "Seek and ye shall find". There are many competing religions that say words to that effect, and they cannot all be true (they could indeed all be false): I think that kind of mantra is objectionable itself, but is basically geared to indoctrinating people. If the religion does not respect those who don't actually find anything, after years of searching, or if it does not respect those who find an answer that is contrary to the tenets of the religion, what value does the statement have?

You quote Corinthians, which says that Love "is not self-seeking" (amongst other things), but this seems contrary to a religious text which tells you that god is a jealous god, that you must worship god, that you must seek and find him (rather than the other way round), that god is Love, that you must fear and love god, etc.

And I think there is real danger in the ideology of secular humanism, when clearly we are deeply, deeply flawed people.

I would agree that there are competing religions out there, and I would agree that they all cannot be true. But you cannot say that one isn't true simply because another has used the same statement or one similar statement. That in itself is not grounds to say something isn't truth.

You bring up both good and difficult examples from the Bible. I will try to answer them in order. I have only a little time right now, but I do want to address these, and not because I want to debate. It's because I love God and I think so many people don't understand who He is, or what His heart is. But trust me. My inner enneagram 9 does not enjoy debating. So please understand that I'm not responding just to "fight" this out with you. These are passages that should be analyzed, because on the surface they seem cruel and harsh. But that's not who God is.

Numbers 31: This is a hard passage for any of us with warm blood, but first understand that God takes no pleasure in destroying anyone.

"Do you think that I like to see wicked people die?' says the Sovereign LORD. 'Of course not! I want them to turn from their wicked ways of living!" -Ezekiel 18:23

However, the wages of sin is death. God has wronged nobody. We've all sinned and we all deserve death. That's important to understand. Second of all, God did not even spare His own people when they sinned by taking up pagan wives in chapter 25, which He had forbidden they do. He forbid it to protect the messianic line that would offer salvation to any and all. The Jews were a short covenant to bring about Christ. God needed a Sanctified group of people to do so. And in this case, the entire culture of people in Numbers chapter 25-31 were so evil and sinful that God could not tolerate it longer, and they were turning God's people to idolatry. Their evil was passing down from generation to generation. God's plan and purpose all along was the birth and sacrifice of Christ Jesus so that ALL would have the option to access grace through His sacrificial blood.


Deuteronomy: God is not pro-rape, nor is He letting a rapist off easy. Rape is one of the most vile, disgusting, and heart-wrenching acts of evil out there. God hates rape. Rape is absolutely cruel and to even think of a rapist, in present day, marrying his victim is absolutely horrifying. This seems beyond cruel to us because we know to value a woman far above and beyond her sexual history, and we do not treat women as property. But they did not back then. Women could not even own property in that time. Yet this was not because of God's design.

God designed women to be cherished and loved the way Christ loved and died for the church. He designed men to love women so strongly that they would die for them. God says a woman is "more precious than jewels; And nothing you desire compares with her." (Proverbs 3:15). So God, in His great love for women, gave one of two consequences to rapists a) if she's engaged, a man has already gave his word to care for her and make sure that she is provided for. Thus, the rapist was stoned. Or b) if she's not engaged, even though God wants to stone the rapist for what he did, He also wants to make sure she is cared for and not completely abandoned to starve without home and provision.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

And I think there is real danger in the ideology of secular humanism, when clearly we are deeply, deeply flawed people.

What danger would that be? Why would being "deeply, deeply flawed people" especially negatively affect the "ideology of secular humanism", when religion is also man-made, but has the added factor of being built on obscure sand that does not allow itself to be reasoned with, and which treats this life as of little or no value compared to the afterlife?

I would agree that there are competing religions out there, and I would agree that they all cannot be true. But you cannot say that one isn't true simply because another has used the same statement or one similar statement. That in itself is not grounds to say something isn't truth.

I did not suggest that this was the case: I raised the contradicting religions because there are many which say "seek and ye shall find". That I happen to find them all false is of secondary significance to my point.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

Numbers 31: This is a hard passage for any of us with warm blood, but first understand that God takes no pleasure in destroying anyone.


"Do you think that I like to see wicked people die?' says the Sovereign LORD. 'Of course not! I want them to turn from their wicked ways of living!" -Ezekiel 18:23

Your view does not actually detract from the fact that the god of the Old and New Testament destroys many things, and threatens eternal suffering on humans. Regardless of whether or not god takes pleasure in destroying people, he is still described as fundamentally evil. I would actually say that a god that takes pleasure from causing unnecessary suffering would be less evil than a god that takes no pleasure from carrying out the same act.

However, the wages of sin is death. God has wronged nobody. We've all sinned and we all deserve death. That's important to understand. Second of all, God did not even spare His own people when they sinned by taking up pagan wives in chapter 25, which He had forbidden they do. He forbid it to protect the messianic line that would offer salvation to any and all. The Jews were a short covenant to bring about Christ. God needed a Sanctified group of people to do so. And in this case, the entire culture of people in Numbers chapter 25-31 were so evil and sinful that God could not tolerate it longer, and they were turning God's people to idolatry. Their evil was passing down from generation to generation. God's plan and purpose all along was the birth and sacrifice of Christ Jesus so that ALL would have the option to access grace through His sacrificial blood.

I do not believe in god, so whether or not we deserve death has no significance to me personally. I would say however that a god that states that the infiniteness of death is a just punishment for a finite amount of sin committed during a mortal lifetime is fundamentally evil. One that says that you must also suffer for eternity on top of the death is even more evil, if that is possible.

Deuteronomy: God is not pro-rape, nor is He letting a rapist off easy. Rape is one of the most vile, disgusting, and heart-wrenching acts of evil out there. God hates rape. Rape is absolutely cruel and to even think of a rapist, in present day, marrying his victim is absolutely horrifying. This seems beyond cruel to us because we know to value a woman far above and beyond her sexual history, and we do not treat women as property. But they did not back then. Women could not even own property in that time. Yet this was not because of God's design.

God designed women to be cherished and loved the way Christ loved and died for the church. He designed men to love women so strongly that they would die for them. God says a woman is "more precious than jewels; And nothing you desire compares with her." (Proverbs 3:15). So God, in His great love for women, gave one of two consequences to rapists a) if she's engaged, a man has already gave his word to care for her and make sure that she is provided for. Thus, the rapist was stoned. Or b) if she's not engaged, even though God wants to stone the rapist for what he did, He also wants to make sure she is cared for and not completely abandoned to starve without home and provision.

God is pro-rape, because he allowed the Hebrews to have sex-slaves, and obliges someone who has been raped to marry their victim. It was codified into their laws. I do agree with you about rape being fundamentally evil however.

God is also pro-slavery, both in the way he endorsed it as a practice for the Hebrews (what would now be considered a war crime, along with genocide and mass-rape), and in the way that he described believers as slaves to their master in heaven.

[applejacks]

Your view does not actually detract from the fact that the god of the Old and New Testament destroys many things, and threatens eternal suffering on humans. Regardless of whether or not god takes pleasure in destroying people, he is still described as fundamentally evil. I would actually say that a god that takes pleasure from causing unnecessary suffering would be less evil than a god that takes no pleasure from carrying out the same act.



I do not believe in god, so whether or not we deserve death has no significance to me personally. I would say however that a god that states that the infiniteness of death is a just punishment for a finite amount of sin committed during a mortal lifetime is fundamentally evil. One that says that you must also suffer for eternity on top of the death is even more evil, if that is possible.



God is pro-rape, because he allowed the Hebrews to have sex-slaves, and obliges someone who has been raped to marry their victim. It was codified into their laws. I do agree with you about rape being fundamentally evil however.

God is also pro-slavery, both in the way he endorsed it as a practice for the Hebrews (what would now be considered a war crime, along with genocide and mass-rape), and in the way that he described believers as slaves to their master in heaven.

false. And I just explained why God is not pro rape, nor hateful. Where did rape come from in the first place?

What God intends for good, man intends for evil. Man takes God's truth and perverts it. Ever since the beginning, man was unwilling to simply believe God. It's no different today.

God was the one that said you shall not commit adultery, nor have sex before marriage. It was man that sinned and created rape. It was God that provided justice where justice was due, and compassion where compassion was due. It is God that can see the heart. It is God that loves the unlovable and cares for the outcast.

You make no counter argument here other than to state what you've said over and over again with no explanation or logic.

[mu4]

false. And I just explained why God is not pro rape, nor hateful. Where did rape come from in the first place?

What God intends for good, man intends for evil. Man takes God's truth and perverts it. Ever since the beginning, man was unwilling to simply believe God. It's no different today.

God was the one that said you shall not commit adultery, nor have sex before marriage. It was man that sinned and created rape. It was God that provided justice where justice was due, and compassion where compassion was due. It is God that can see the heart. It is God that loves the unlovable and cares for the outcast.

You make no counter argument here other than to state what you've said over and over again with no explanation or logic.

Maybe god is not the perversion, but religion totally seems to be. I mean you look around you and see a world greater than you and all the wonder that comes with it, this is what most people call god or compels them to believe.

However the rules and doctrine which enslaves mankind, this is entirely man's creation. The various holy text, this is written by man and perverted by man.

You can believe in god and believe in none of man's doctrines, and I think part of you tries to say this if you read behind the lines.

Many variety of christian doctrine says people will go to hell for not believing in god, I believe in no such perversion and I don't believe in many other ones as well.

I'm not going to argue with you about belief in god since this is a personal thing and often really unspeakable sort of feeling.

But I do wonder the reason why you continue to believe in doctrine which seems rather absurd and downright evil sometimes, that's a attachment to a perversion of the truth committed by man. Done long before we were born, and inherited by the teachers of these doctrine. You might have been taught with love, kindness and good faith as they might have been taught, but many ideas are transmitted corrupted.

God doesn't tell you to rape or do other bad things, but doctrine, doctrine can be perverted by man, in all sects and creeds. Why follow doctrine at all when it is full of outdated ideas that seems so bad.

I believe that all doctrine will disappear, and it's up to us and future generation to learn how to live better and treat our fellow humans beings better than we have in the past and this require us to lose our attachments to the perverted doctrines of the past.

http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/fait...y.php?id=51077

Christianity itself is changing, reforming itself in the light of truth, struggling to rid itself of the corruption and perversion that occurred in the past.

If people are to be one together, it's time we stop trying to damn each other and kill each other in the name of doctrine. There are people who seek to do this today, from many sects and creeds, and they are unwilling to change, so they destroy.

Perhaps god intends us to change, intends us to grow and develop and cast away perverted doctrine, by showing us the truth some other way, not thru doctrine but more directly, thru our own experiences.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

false. And I just explained why God is not pro rape, nor hateful. Where did rape come from in the first place?

Well, god has laws on what is proper etiquette, including during wartime. It permits you to slaughter everybody, except the children, and the virgin women, who you are to take for sex slaves. This is clearly the case, because it does not say "Permit all married women to live".

Raping a servant is also considered less of an offence than raping a free person. Raping a servant is only considered a property crime, and is not considered a capital offence. This only makes it clearer that god is pro-slavery and pro-rape.

You should also consider the Tenth Commandment: it does not say "Thou shall not covet your neighbour" or "Thous shall not rape". It says "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.": i.e. a wife in the bible is considered the chattel of a man. The crime of rape is an ethical transgression against the woman's husband (and god on a larger level) - and an act against the man's property.

fWhat God intends for good, man intends for evil. Man takes God's truth and perverts it. Ever since the beginning, man was unwilling to simply believe God. It's no different today.

God was the one that said you shall not commit adultery, nor have sex before marriage. It was man that sinned and created rape. It was God that provided justice where justice was due, and compassion where compassion was due. It is God that can see the heart. It is God that loves the unlovable and cares for the outcast.

You make no counter argument here other than to state what you've said over and over again with no explanation or logic.

The earliest evidence of marriage in history shows no evidence of religious influence: indeed, it comes in the form of marriage contracts, where two men exchange a daughter for six sheep, for example. It was man who invented god, not the other way round: you have no evidence to the contrary, so there is no need for a counter argument.

[Eliza Thomason]

I meant to reply to this awhile back and got sidetracked. I talk with God all the time. He doesn't speak back through burning bushes, but He does speak. I hear Him when I read scripture, and sometimes I hear Him when I'm running or praying. I remember the first time I heard Him, in fact.

I had climbed the Peak, which is a local mountain hike that overlooks five states: Tennessee, Kentucky, North Carolina, Virginia, and West Virginia. I sat on the top of the mountain and decided to meditate / pray, whatever. I wanted to do something "spiritual", although I wasn't really Christian at the time. I always loved reading about and contemplating eastern religions and studies.

So I sat in the stillness, overlooking the mountains and trees. I heard a voice, soft, still, and quiet in the corners of my heart.

SEEK

I don't know how to explain it. The word almost echoed around me - not audibly, but internally - as if my heart mirrored the acoustics of the valleys all around me.

I came down the mountain and was still confused over what had happened. I was moved to find a Bible. I hadn't opened a Bible in years at that time. I didn't have one, so I downloaded an app that had some random 30 day Bible study. I opened to the first page, and there was Jeremiah 29:13 at the top of the page:

"You will seek me and you will find me
when you seek me with all of your heart."

That scripture is the same scripture that my mother made and framed with needlepoint on the day that I was born. It's the same scripture that I opened to directly the next time I sat down in a church and opened a Bible for the first time.

This is just a small excerpt of many conversations and things that only fuel and ignite my faith.

I love this. Thanks for sharing it. It gave me the chills up and down, and warmed my heart at the same time. God is good. Yes, if we seek Him, we find Him. You went on the mountain and in your heart you sought a spiritual experience, a seeking you did not state out loud, but just kept in the silence in your heart, and He who loves you and knows your every thought and every desire knew that, and He gave you your desire, through a special gift, a word, one word that had and would have special meaning to you, and would lead you to where your heart wanted to go. I love it. God does not intrude, but He waits for the smallest opening of our heart. And He speaks to people in so many different ways, in every different way, and its always delightful to hear of how He speaks to another. Also this is an example of how God's actions and His words to us are perfect simplicity. Truly, perfection.

[Beautiful sky]

I believe in love. I think if God exists it's Love and we humans warp that in so any ways

[Socionics Is A Cult]

I believe in love. I think if God exists it's Love and we humans warp that in so any ways

You claim not to believe in hell, so you do not believe in the Abrahamic god. The Abrahamic god said you should fear it: it would be very odd to fear love.