How is ENFj not hard to sell? What makes this guy so extroverted then? He is subdued and quiet in most of his roles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06YE_...embedded#at=86
This video shows him making several blunt Te-ish statements. "Don't suppose you could be tad more specific.", "Don't do that.", etc.
The thing about walken is that he doesn't ever do all the animated stuff along with his environment. He does them on his own terms. He is a very independent kind of actor that way. I don't think it looks like Fe at all.
Correct. He always brings his own game.Originally Posted by labcoat
More vids:
This one everybody should see before they die:
(the way he speaks is clearly Te)
Dailymotion - Christopher Walken 2003 interview - a Funny video
Notice how pissed off he gets (although he tries to hide it) when Conan comments on his hair. PoRL hit maybe? ( I think conan o'brien is IEE btw)
Last edited by xkj220; 11-23-2009 at 08:30 PM.
Addressing some things in the above posts about Walken being INTp:
* It sounds like xkj220 considers Socionics' extraversion = extroverted (socially.) In Socionics, "subdued" and "quiet" does not correlate to introversion--just as the opposite does not correlate to extroversion... I.e. Whether Walken appears "subdued" or "quiet" is not relevant to his Socionics type. (E.g. in Socionics, there are INTps who are more extroverted (socially) than ENFjs.)
In Socionics, all that EXXx denotes is that ones leading function is extroverted; likewise IXXx denotes one's is introverted. In other words, one must listen to WHAT one says, not nec. HOW one says it.
Sometimes it's tricky detecting whether one's leading function is introverted/extroverted; however, to someone well-versed, it's not very tricky to tell in one is "speaking" Te, Fe, Ti, etc. They all have their own particular ways of coming across--in what people talk express.
So when someone says, "I don't think he looks Fe..." (as above.) All that tells me is they're (erroneously) evaluating looks, not content.
In this case--even in the interview you posted, interview pt 2--Walken speaks of relationships/styles in the world of theatre, of funny accents he can do, of his upbringing, etc. He speaks of these easily and fluently, (i.e. without difficulty, as Te polrs, such as INTps/ISTps, usually do.) In Socionics, fluency in these topics connotes adroitness w Fe and Ni.
In that interview, there is nothing that Walken says that connotes or denotes skill with/interest in Te. (If you detect something, however, I'm interested to know what it is.) IMO, INTp is not the correct type. (In terms of IM elements expressed, INFp is much more likely than INTp.)
I'm writing this not to fight with you--I could care less what people here believe, and am no longer interested in persuading anyone... I'm trying to give an explanation.
Lol. I have never, ever said that. In fact, iirc there are few posts in my post history where I am presenting arguments against that view.
Nice try explaining stuff that you don't quite understand.In Socionics, "subdued" and "quiet" does not correlate to introversion--just as the opposite does not correlate to extroversion... I.e. Whether Walken appears "subdued" or "quiet" is not relevant to his Socionics type. (E.g. in Socionics, there are INTps who are more extroverted (socially) than ENFjs.)
Uh? Do you mean that WHAT is important or that HOW is important? Also, what is "nec"? Ah nvm, I got it now. Why is one important and not the other?In Socionics, all that EXXx denotes is that ones leading function is extroverted; likewise IXXx denotes one's is introverted. In other words, one must listen to WHAT one says, not nec. HOW one says it.
Yeah, and he speaks Te (IMHO).Sometimes it's tricky detecting whether one's leading function is introverted/extroverted; however, to someone well-versed, it's not very tricky to tell in one is "speaking" Te, Fe, Ti, etc. They all have their own particular ways of coming across--in what people talk express.
Looks you mean as in VI?So when someone says, "I don't think he looks Fe..." (as above.) All that tells me is they're (erroneously) evaluating looks, not content.
I'm not sure IXTps are unable to speak about their emotions. Is that what Fe PoRL is? Is anybody who is able to speak about their stances and subjective thoughts on things a Fe + Ni, or Ni + Fe ego type? Are logical types unable to do impressions of people?In this case--even in the interview you posted, interview pt 2--Walken speaks of relationships/styles in the world of theatre, of funny accents he can do, of his upbringing, etc. He speaks of these easily and fluently, (i.e. without difficulty, as Te polrs, such as INTps/ISTps, usually do.) In Socionics, fluency in these topics connotes adroitness w Fe and Ni.
"Skill/interest" in Te? I can tell that the way he structures his thoughts is Te. Look at it here. Don't make me look for particular statements that he makes to show as examples because it's tedious and I don't feel like it atm. Watch the interview that I posted.In that interview, there is nothing that Walken says that connotes or denotes skill with/interest in Te. (If you detect something, however, I'm interested to know what it is.)
Sure, no worries. I don't know exactly what you are referring to, but just letting you know that I am genuinely interested in finding his type, and not arguing for the sake of arguing (which I find unproductive). I currently go by a theory that would make an EIE-Ni similar in some ways to an INTp, so it's possible. Anything else you can bring to the table will be appreciated.I'm writing this not to fight with you--I could care less what people here believe, and am no longer interested in persuading anyone... I'm trying to give an explanation.
Last edited by xkj220; 11-23-2009 at 09:53 PM.
Do not let yourself be confused by jewjews babbling. You will find most people on this forum have no idea how to distinguish between Te and Fe.
It is still the general trend that extroverts are louder and less subdued than introverts. While the fact that a person is quiet and subdued is not an end-all proof of the fact s/he is introverted, it is still an argument.
In other words, if you're going to believe this:
and really believe his level of social extroversion is not in any way relevant to his typing, you might as well throw all of socionics out of the window and say there isn't anything at all to base typings on.I.e. Whether Walken appears "subdued" or "quiet" is not relevant to his Socionics type.
crazedrat, you still think you're INTp..? (It's true, I do find "most people on this forum have no idea how to distinguish between Fe and Te." :cough: cough: Good to see you though.)
---
xkj220" "Nice try explaining stuff you don't understand..?" wellTHANK GOD you're here!! I've been waiting YEARS for someone to come along and teach me "stuff I don't understand..." Now the moment's finally here!! And to think: you understand ALL of this "stuff" after just four months and five hundred posts..! Goddamned miracle.
(I.e. Don't be an asshole.)
Seriously: if, as you say, you're genuinely interested in finding out Walken's type--and discussing it on this forum--it'd be good if you'd explain, specifically, why you think he's expressing Te... As I explained why he's expressing Fe and Ni.
If you can't do better than "the way he structures thoughts is Te," then you can't do it... Indicating there may be "stuff you don't understand."
---
labcoat, you're right about "general trends..." In this case though, we're not talking about "general trends." We're talking about a specific case--Christopher Walken... If you'd like to compare him with another quiet, subdued Ni-EIE, Dennis Hopper is one.
I tentatively agree with that typing for Dennis hopper. Now; do you really think they are the same type?
Was testing to see if you value Se, which you don't, by the way..(I.e. Don't be an asshole.)
Okay, seeing you understand everything because you've been here for years.. an easy one: why is it that EJ and EP types sometimes seems introverted and IP and IJ types sometimes seem extroverted?
Get back to you later.Seriously: if, as you say, you're genuinely interested in finding out Walken's type--and discussing it on this forum--it'd be good if you'd explain, specifically, why you think he's expressing Te... As I explained why he's expressing Fe and Ni.
If you can't do better than "the way he structures thoughts is Te," then you can't do it... Indicating there may be "stuff you don't understand."
But socionics and behavioral extroversion/introversion are correlated. What can you base an argument off of, if not observed behavior? Maybe this?:
This subjective awareness is actually by far the most accurate way to type people. Maybe that's why you're so terrible at typing people
If you can't do better than "the way he structures thoughts is Te," then you can't do it... Indicating there may be "stuff you don't understand."
On one hand you argue against behavioral typing for extraversion/introversion, on the other against subjective typing methods for her impressions of a Te thought structure. You're picking and choosing where to apply your criticisms, playing both sides of the fence. You can apply both these arguments to your own insinuations of EIE and render them all equally useless.
yeah you're right he is INTP-Ni. It's clear in those interviews.
As I told xkj220 in PM, the more I watch of C. Walken, the more I believe that he's INFp.
xkj220 is right, the way that Walken expresses himself is subdued, lacking the emphatic accenting typical of ENFj's speech, and sharp/tense/jittery gestures.
His gaze/demeanor remind me of INFps like Bob Dylan, Tom Petty, Alice Cooper, etc.
My judgement before about Walken being Ni-ENFj was too superficial... It took watching nearly an hour of interviews to get the typing correct.
[QUOTE=JuJu;584567]As I told xkj220 in PM, the more I watch of C. Walken, the more I believe that he's INFp.
xkj220 is right, the way that Walken expresses himself is subdued, lacking the emphatic accenting typical of ENFj's speech, and sharp/tense/jittery gestures.
His gaze/demeanor remind me of INFps like Bob Dylan, Tom Petty, Alice Cooper, etc.
My judgement before about Walken being Ni-ENFj was too superficial... It took watching nearly an hour of interviews to get the typing correct.[/QUOTE
Again, everyone has to make this theory more complicated then it needs to be. I don't know where you get Infp from, never would have crossed my mind, which tells me that you know nothing of VI which is sad because I just started learning Socionics. Anyways, I can make a video and I can guarantee you that I will probably come across subdued, does this make me any other type then ENFJ? Guys, why do you insist that 16 types of people will behave and act exactly the same way. Environment does play a huge part in how someone will come across not just type!!!
EIE tritype 5w4, 4w5, 9w1
As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
Carl Jung, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections", 1962
As you say above, Morcheeba--you "just started learning Socionics..." So perhaps some of us should not be too surprised by your post.
You say Socionics is "simple." You're wrong. Socionics is complex.
To understand Socionics, one must understand the IM elements, (in theory and in their practical manifestations via actions, words, expressions, gestures, etc,) how they interact to form personality, how they influence all of the different intertype relations, how they manifest to create 16 general archetypes, which Socionics calls "personality types," etc.
Understanding Socionics has taken some very sharp minds years.
There are no shortcuts to fully understanding Socionics... Take a tip from one who's tried.
VI--the shortcut you espouse, Morcheeba--must be supplemented by research to make an informed typing... The old saying is true: looks can be deceiving.
Furthermore, despite what you wrote, no one "insisted the 16 types of people will behave and act exactly the same way." (No one even implied anything close to it, honestly... It seems as though that notion came straight out of your ass.)
This thread exemplifies well an overall trend among relative newcomers to this forum... Many of you are too quick to criticize--when frankly, most of you could benefit from reading the experts here rather than posting half-baked ideas that those of us who've been here for years have seen pass through, always unsuccessfully, multiple times (as yours now, Morcheeba.)
If you can explain--using Socionics--why the subject in question is a certain type, (as I did by explaining his use of Ni and Fe,) then great... We can discuss it like adults... If you "argue," yet cannot use Socionics to bolster your claims, you might as well use your time more constructively than posting about, essentially, nothing.
I am glad to see you've changed your mind a bit, but you are still incorrect, because walken is INTp-Ni.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote