I don't want to be EIE-ENFj

[Kristiina]

I can't think of any good way to reply to people individually without repeating myself, so I'll just write one post.

I don't really think that FeNi is a bad thing in general. I just think it's a lot of work to stay sane being that type. I can't say that I became emotional after I typed myself beta. That would be a lie. I have had a cycle of being serious most of the time and burned out the rest of the time. I was actually making progress in finding some inner calm. When I think about it now, I became calmer when I started socializing in university. But now I've got worse. I can't seem to find the thing that makes me feel confident in being me. I feel like I am the same person, but my core has always been distorted.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not really depressed. I'm just out of control and this is the time when I have to decide where I should try to go next. Today I got misty-eyed when I saw a "Free willy" trailer. Now that's borderline insanity. :wink: I have more emotions physically than mentally. I mean that my emotions make no sense to me. I saw the trailer and thought "that was a rather positive movie, I think I should see it again". It was a casual thought, but then I felt a strong feeling of heroism and sadness and happiness at the same time. It would have made perfect sense if I was: a) pregnant, b)very stereotypical female, c)mentally unstable. I don't think any of these apply.

I really can't imagine myself acting like the woman in ENFj descriptions. The description doesn't describe me at all unless I start looking for alternative explanations to the sentences. Even the word "passion" seems wrong. I don't want to start acting/thinking like ENFjs in those descriptions. It just won't suit me. I'm not going to base my life on feeling emotions and passion. Here's the problem, that part seems very important in an ENFjs life. I won't be able to live a healthy life until I start acting like an ENFj, but I can't act like an ENFj, because I feel like I would be changing my personality to fit some type description.


So basically, if I stay myself, I will never start acting like the person that's in the ENFj descriptions. I have developed my Te and Se too far. I can't become pure ENFj anymore. I have to find a way to think like an ENFj, use logic like an ENTj and act like an ISFj/ENTj/ESFp or whatever else...

[Blaze]

Sorry I just don't get an enfj vibe from you at all. Not confident enough or something.

[Jonathan]

I just saw this thread now. I think it really emphasizes the importance of seeing typology as descriptive, not proscriptive. The idea of finding one's type and thinking one has to learn to act like that type is a bit backwards.

If you think you're ENj but ENTj doesn't fit and ENFj doesn't either, then you're somewhere in between, despite whatever theories might say to the contrary!

I'm going to make reference to that four-letter word around here, MBTI. And the reason I bring that up is because in the world of MBTI research, they did a factor analysis and found that the questions for T vs. F and others broke down to several factors, out of which they created subscales for a more detailed analysis.

The fact of the matter is that what we think of as the functions, if we were to look at all the ways people who have defined them, are at best clusters of related but not 100% correlated factors.

Socionics defines F in terms of social skills. Smilex, in his famous mechanical-mathematico post on this forum, defined it (I'm paraphrasing here) as acting in a not-clearly-defined way, and also as sort of as a recognition of the state of not knowing (as opposed to acting as if one knows....).

Actually, that relates to some of the subscales in the MBTI related to T/F. For example, part of that dichotomy in the MBTI world has to do with thinking in terms of logic (utilitarian thinking) or values (a priori sense of purpose). Another part has to do with acting towards others in a 'soft' or 'hard' way (I'm paraphrasing again of course).

As I think you've mentioned in some of your posts, Kristiina, what one is interested in may be yet another factor.

You can have all sorts of combinations of this....A logic-oriented person who acts who nevertheless is cautious about acting as if he really knows, and is soft towards others but interested mainly in impersonal things....as just one example here...the combinations are endless.

So, anyhow, when Socionics gets to be a problem, it's a good time to take a time out, discover your real strengths, and then if you want some theoretical insight come back to thinking about that on the basis of what you've discovered in the course of experiencing reality.

Anyhow, that's my 2 cents.

[Expat]

Sorry I just don't get an enfj vibe from you at all. Not confident enough or something.

A comment on ENFjs from Valentina Meged - -

This is the most contradictory and most varied type of personality both internally and outwardly.

Most frequently variable, but not running, but a somewhat scattered view of eye they are expressive in Eie: they transfer first internal emotional incandescence, then is melancholy. Usually these emotions are not so much caused by real state of affairs, as they speak about the increased sensitiveness Eie.

Mimicry is also very diverse, obedient situation and that role, which is diverted Eie in this situation. This tuning of emotions occurs naturally and not always prednamerenno. Some representatives of this type have alarming, nervous smile, but majority smile rarely, preferring to preserve the serious expression of face.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Sorry I just don't get an enfj vibe from you at all. Not confident enough or something.

A comment on ENFjs from Valentina Meged - -

This is the most contradictory and most varied type of personality both internally and outwardly.

Most frequently variable, but not running, but a somewhat scattered view of eye they are expressive in Eie: they transfer first internal emotional incandescence, then is melancholy. Usually these emotions are not so much caused by real state of affairs, as they speak about the increased sensitiveness Eie.

Mimicry is also very diverse, obedient situation and that role, which is diverted Eie in this situation. This tuning of emotions occurs naturally and not always prednamerenno. Some representatives of this type have alarming, nervous smile, but majority smile rarely, preferring to preserve the serious expression of face.

Yes.

[Expat]

Still on this --

I think there is evidence that ENFjs can be a very complicated type.

One interpretation of the "typical" ENFjs - the go-getter charming politicians and salesmen - is to see them as Enneagram 3. I wonder however if ENFjs aren't often Enneagram 6s at heart who are disintegrating into Enneagram 3s.

Or the opposite -- they are 3s at heart but who "grow" into 6, assuming 6s' anxiety issues too.

[Blaze]

The enfj's I know are confident, smiling, entrepeneurial types. They are popoular and gregarious.

[Kristiina]

Sorry I just don't get an enfj vibe from you at all. Not confident enough or something.

A comment on ENFjs from Valentina Meged - -

This is the most contradictory and most varied type of personality both internally and outwardly.

Most frequently variable, but not running, but a somewhat scattered view of eye they are expressive in Eie: they transfer first internal emotional incandescence, then is melancholy. Usually these emotions are not so much caused by real state of affairs, as they speak about the increased sensitiveness Eie.

Mimicry is also very diverse, obedient situation and that role, which is diverted Eie in this situation. This tuning of emotions occurs naturally and not always prednamerenno. Some representatives of this type have alarming, nervous smile, but majority smile rarely, preferring to preserve the serious expression of face.

So basically, socionics is very good and informative... unless you're ENFj, because ENFjs are all different and no one can really describe them. What Meged said is almost exactly the opposite to all the other ENFj description. I can see how the description applies, but I could also identify with ISTp description if I wanted to.

So, anyhow, when Socionics gets to be a problem, it's a good time to take a time out, discover your real strengths, and then if you want some theoretical insight come back to thinking about that on the basis of what you've discovered in the course of experiencing reality.

It sounds nice, but I already know that I can't think of anything that would give me the result that I want. I already tried everything. I need new ideas. I already have the experiences, so it won't help me, if I just randomly experiment again. I'm trying to review my discoveries in the context of me as an ENFj.

Jonathan, where can I find more information about the MBTI T/F studies?

[Expat]

The enfj's I know are confident, smiling, entrepeneurial types. They are popoular and gregarious.

This is indeed the usual image of ENFj and Enneagram 3, but when you state this, you are assuming that (1) those people you know are necessarily ENFjs and (2) anyone who is NOT confident, smiling etc is necessarily NOT an ENFj which can be circular thinking -- you automatically rule out ENFj as a type for people who do not share the characteristics you just cited.

So basically, socionics is very good and informative... unless you're ENFj, because ENFjs are all different and no one can really describe them. What Meged said is almost exactly the opposite to all the other ENFj description. I can see how the description applies, but I could also identify with ISTp description if I wanted to.

I understand that it's frustrating. However, I'm trying also to be realistic here. You do seem to have EJ temperament.

Just a thought -- may I suggest that the way you are approaching this - as described by you at the top of this thread - looking to "play" or "act" or even "be" the type - can actually be interpreted as very stereotypical ENFj behavior?

[Phaedrus]

Kristiina,

I'm not sure this will do you any good, but my suggestion is that you try to widen your horizon for a moment. Read some shitty MBTI profiles of ENFJs and other types, just to get a slightly new perspective on things. Read Keirsey's profiles. Maybe you will find some new insights along the way. Since you seem to be confused about yourself and your type anyway, some new input and some new aspects on the types might not be too bad.

[Kristiina]

Expat, I agree with you. This thread is quite Fe-dominant of me. I have been looking at a lot of different aspects of ENFj. I got some of the dichotomies wrong and I'm actually not that strongly ENFj as it seemed on the chart, but I see ENFj traits in myself. I seem different from the beta NF's that I know, but I seem to act rather similarly to ENFjs.

And I still think Erkki is INTp. Maybe I just took the role of a gamma SF.

Lets take it back to the topic. Do happy ENFjs exist? I'm thinking of someone who is happy with their personality; respected and loved by others, happy with their achievements, pleasant and calm. Does that exist?

[Expat]

Lets take it back to the topic. Do happy ENFjs exist? I'm thinking of someone who is happy with their personality; respected and loved by others, happy with their achievements, pleasant and calm. Does that exist?

I don't know.

Perhaps some of the people in this list qualify? Assuming they are indeed ENFjs.

http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...pic.php?t=4042

[Blaze]

The 3 enfj's I know are definitely enfj's. They are all confident but it dosn't mean al enfj's are confident, I spose. But Jadae seems pretty confident as well. but what do I know. It just doesn't seem like Kristina's an enfj, at least not to me.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Joy]

yeah... why should someone be "calm" if it's not in their nature?

[JuJu]

"Lets take it back to the topic. Do happy ENFjs exist?"

I'm relatively happy, I'd say.

"I'm thinking of someone who is happy with their personality; respected and loved by others, happy with their achievements, pleasant and calm. Does that exist?"

I'm happy with my personality--the advantages that it seems to engender, anyway; the disadvantages, I attempt to work on them... Some respect me, some even love me (so much the worse for them, hehe.) I'm not entirely happy with my achievements; I'm not sure that I'll ever feel satisfied with them--perhaps it's my nature to strive, continually... it has advantages and disadvantages.

Pleasant and calm?
No... simply no.

[Jonathan]

Jonathan, where can I find more information about the MBTI T/F studies?

Kristiina, in answer to your question, I did a quick web search and found out that they're in something called "MBTI II." You can find out about that here...interesting domain name ...:

http://www.16types.com/Request.jsp?r...ent=MBTIStepII

Actually, that's an interesting topic of discussion in itself...

[Kristiina]

I wonder if ENFjs have a curse of looking calm, pleasant and successful to others, but being all stressed out on the inside. Stressed about some minor things that others don't notice.

The enfj's I know are confident, smiling, entrepeneurial types. They are popoular and gregarious.

They smile and talk to everyone and they look happy. I wonder if they also think happy thoughts when they go home. When they are home alone, do they praise themselves for a job well done or do they constantly criticize themselves for not being even smarter or even better...

[Kristiina]

Jonathan, where can I find more information about the MBTI T/F studies?

Kristiina, in answer to your question, I did a quick web search and found out that they're in something called "MBTI II." You can find out about that here...interesting domain name ...:

http://www.16types.com/Request.jsp?r...ent=MBTIStepII

Actually, that's an interesting topic of discussion in itself...

I'll take another look tomorrow, but I didn't like the site that much. It was too pretty. That's usually a sign that their main objective is to lure people there and to make money.

[XoX]

I wonder if ENFjs have a curse of looking calm, pleasant and successful to others, but being all stressed out on the inside. Stressed about some minor things that others don't notice.

Good question With other people they are probably always projecting an image suitable to that situation. When the people are gone and all images are ripped down what is left might be something very different.

What does a naked ENFj look like? (metaphorically ) When an ENFj is alone and looks into the mirror what is there? (according to socionics type relations perhaps an INFp but...)

[Jonathan]

I posted this elsewhere, but it may be useful here:

Here's my own NF vs. NT test: When you're imagining, considering possibilities, etc., are you also being logical? Does logic go hand-and-hand with imagination? Or do you find that when you're imagining, considering possibilities, etc., logic gets in the way, or that your imagination brings out emotions and goes hand-in-hand with relationships with people?

Conversely, when you're thinking logically and systemmatically, do you find that it it naturally leads to considering possibilities and imagination? Or do you find that you associate logic and systematic thinking with authoritative knowledge, practicality, and taking actions?

The first set suggests NT, the second, NF.

[Blaze]

@Kristina, don't know if I can comment on how enfj's would feel on the inside - does anyone know except them?

One enfj friend I had would get depressed and always pick alcoholic men to be with. Eventually she came into her own and got rid of loser men. I admire her a lot - she can start up her own businesses in a twinkling of an eye. She is a great singer and actress (not a famous one) and has a lot of popular appeal. But she does have a tendancy towards codependency and can get depressed about who she's with.

These days, however, she's with a recovering alcoholic who's been clean for years, so she's happy.

But I don't think we ever know how somebody feels on the inside, unless they tell us, and even then we have to trust their honesty. Remember, socionics is about information exchange and how people interact with others.

[uninspired]

Many ENFJs I know have experienced depressive episodes, but they have remarkable bootstrap-up-pulling abilities and rarely stay in such a difficult place for long. They're vulnerable, but very resilient and usually create happy endings for what could be seen or construed as very unhappy stories. And Kristiina, if you're still unsure of or dissatified with your type, don't be. So many people love ENFJs, esp. INFPs, because their emotionality, kindness, and effusiveness bring joy to so many who need it. While you may feel unfulfilled in feeling so much for others, be consoled in knowing that others likely feel the same toward you.

[Expat]

I wonder if ENFjs have a curse of looking calm, pleasant and successful to others, but being all stressed out on the inside. Stressed about some minor things that others don't notice.

Assuming that ENFjs are often Enneagram 3s - as I think is the case, although I think that the can be 6 as well (and again, 6s disintegrate into 3s), this is helpful:

Basic Fear: Of being worthless
Basic Desire: To feel valuable and worthwhile

Key Motivations: Want to be affirmed, to distinguish themselves from others, to have attention, to be admired, and to impress others.

Level 4: Highly concerned with their performance, doing their job well, constantly driving self to achieve goals as if self-worth depends on it. Terrified of failure. Compare self with others in search for status and success. Become careerists, social climbers, invested in exclusivity and being the "best."

Level 5: Become image-conscious, highly concerned with how they are perceived. Begin to package themselves according to the expectations of others and what they need to do to be successful. Pragmatic and efficient, but also premeditated, losing touch with their own feelings beneath a smooth facade. Problems with intimacy, credibility, and "phoniness" emerge.

[Creepy-pokeball]

I wonder if ENFjs have a curse of looking calm, pleasant and successful to others, but being all stressed out on the inside. Stressed about some minor things that others don't notice.

The enfj's I know are confident, smiling, entrepeneurial types. They are popoular and gregarious.

They smile and talk to everyone and they look happy. I wonder if they also think happy thoughts when they go home. When they are home alone, do they praise themselves for a job well done or do they constantly criticize themselves for not being even smarter or even better...

Read the subtypes about internal turmoil.

[Creepy-pokeball]

I wonder if ENFjs have a curse of looking calm, pleasant and successful to others, but being all stressed out on the inside. Stressed about some minor things that others don't notice.

Assuming that ENFjs are often Enneagram 3s - as I think is the case, although I think that the can be 6 as well (and again, 6s disintegrate into 3s), this is helpful:

Basic Fear: Of being worthless
Basic Desire: To feel valuable and worthwhile

Key Motivations: Want to be affirmed, to distinguish themselves from others, to have attention, to be admired, and to impress others.

Level 4: Highly concerned with their performance, doing their job well, constantly driving self to achieve goals as if self-worth depends on it. Terrified of failure. Compare self with others in search for status and success. Become careerists, social climbers, invested in exclusivity and being the "best."

Level 5: Become image-conscious, highly concerned with how they are perceived. Begin to package themselves according to the expectations of others and what they need to do to be successful. Pragmatic and efficient, but also premeditated, losing touch with their own feelings beneath a smooth facade. Problems with intimacy, credibility, and "phoniness" emerge.

No more enneagram crap, please :/

At any rate, 2w3, sx.

3=no.

[Expat]

No more enneagram crap, please :/

Sorry. I will continue to use it because it's helpful IMO.

At any rate, 2w3, sx.

3=no.

For yourself? Ok.

For ENFjs as a type -- I disagree. I think ENFjs are very often 3s.

[FDG]

For ENFjs as a type -- I disagree. I think ENFjs are very often 3s.

Yes, especially socionics ENFjs. I'd say that if we were to rank, it'd be 3, 2, 6

[Expat]

Of the three I know currently, two are 8w9s and one is a 2w3. Anyway, I'm getting annoyed at these 1-1 correlations being made between Enneagram types and Socionics types. So, which case example of some person that you know, are you using to make this allegation this time?

First, I don't make 1-1 correlations. I did not say or mean that ENFjs had to be 3s or vice-versa. As we discussed in another thread, I think ESTps can be 3s too. I agree with FDG that ENFjs can be 6 and I also said that elsewhere.

Second, I'm not using case examples. What I do is read the Enneagram descriptions of the types - not only those of the Enneagram Institute - and the Socionics descriptions, and see which Socionics typs are likely to have the motivations and drives as described by the Enneagram. Reading about 3, I'm reminded of the ENFj - as a type, not as a person.

Third, I do know one guy - my boss - who is both ENFj and E3 IMO but I would not base any "allegation" on one person only. Unfortunately I haven't met many ENFjs IRL.

Fourth, if I read the description of 8, with the focus on doing their own thing and bluntness, I see problems in types being 8 -- however, I guess an ENFj intuitive subtype could also be an 8w9 so.

Finally, I avoid using case examples as you just did precisely because then you are assuming that you have typed those people correctly, both as ENFj and as 8w9 or 2w3. My method, by focusing on the descriptions, avoids this problem.

[Expat]

You assume you're interpreting those descriptions accurately, and what's more, you're assuming that these descriptions are themselves accurate, as well as complete. There's more than enough dispute going around about the validity of the different descriptions. I use the examples I see as a basis to generate further hypotheses, which I modify accordingly with incoming evidence. And furthermore, I see how appropriately the existing theoretical frameworks fit into what I see. If something doesn't fit what I see, then I am inclined to believe that the theory is either wrong, incomplete, or misinterpreted by it's proponents (which is usually the case). I'll trust observation over straight theory, always.

In order to type someone as ENFj, or Enneagram 3 or 8 or whatever, you must have a starting point. Since I don't plan on inventing Socionics or the Enneagram anew, I base my understanding of their types on descriptions, also of the functions in the case of Socionics.

Sure, different descriptions are often in disagreement. Some descriptions are plain rubbish. However, if you leave out minor details and concentrate on the essential of the type, the picture drawn by the better descriptions is consistent. Above all, the motivation of the types remains fairly consistent.

I use the examples I see as a basis to generate further hypotheses, which I modify accordingly with incoming evidence

.

I do that too, but again, aren't the descriptions of the types the starting point to decide that the person you type is one type and not the other? Or did you just pull the conception of the type out of thin air?

And furthermore, I see how appropriately the existing theoretical frameworks fit into what I see. If something doesn't fit what I see, then I am inclined to believe that the theory is either wrong, incomplete, or misinterpreted by it's proponents (which is usually the case). I'll trust observation over straight theory, always.

In order to decide whether or not your observations reflect variations or corrections of the types, you are, again, assuming that (1) you have typed those people correctly and that (2) your observations - which you use to correct the theory - are type-related and not individual-related.

It seems to me that you're by default inventing your own definition of the types.

[Creepy-pokeball]

No more enneagram crap, please :/

Sorry. I will continue to use it because it's helpful IMO.

At any rate, 2w3, sx.

3=no.

For yourself? Ok.

For ENFjs as a type -- I disagree. I think ENFjs are very often 3s.

Yes for myself and no it is not helpful whatsoever. It's just annoying and rude. Socionics is complex enough.

[Expat]

Yes for myself and no it is not helpful whatsoever. It's just annoying and rude. Socionics is complex enough.

Many others disagree with you and find occasional references to the Enneagram useful. Therefore I'll continue to do it. I don't see as rude at all; rather, it's rude of you to want others to stop referring to it just because you find it annoying.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Yes for myself and no it is not helpful whatsoever. It's just annoying and rude. Socionics is complex enough.

Many others disagree with you and find occasional references to the Enneagram useful. Therefore I'll continue to do it. I don't see as rude at all; rather, it's rude of you to want others to stop referring to it just because you find it annoying.

There's already a thread on it elsewhere. Either get to the direct point of where this has any usage at all for Kristiina and ENFj's or go pander your ennegram-centered agenda in some other quadra.

[Joy]

It seems to me that you're by default inventing your own definition of the types.

didn't you know that any type description that doesn't paint ENTjs to be Se dominant are bullshit?

[Expat]

There's already a thread on it elsewhere. Either get to the direct point of where this has any usage at all for Kristiina and ENFj's or go pander your ennegram-centered agenda in some other quadra.

I have explained the usage just a few posts above and my aim was precisely to help clarify Kristiina's type.

[Creepy-pokeball]

They smile and talk to everyone and they look happy. I wonder if they also think happy thoughts when they go home. When they are home alone, do they praise themselves for a job well done or do they constantly criticize themselves for not being even smarter or even better...

Theyre productive for a while but then become lonely.

[Creepy-pokeball]

There's already a thread on it elsewhere. Either get to the direct point of where this has any usage at all for Kristiina and ENFj's or go pander your ennegram-centered agenda in some other quadra.

I have explained the usage just a few posts above and my aim was precisely to help clarify Kristiina's type.

Validity? Far less than Socionics in it's pure form is. Exactly...confusing. Push your new candy elsewhere.

[Kristiina]

I can't decide which enneagram I am. I might be either 3 or 6 or maybe something else. My main purpose in life is to have a purpose in life. I can't stay still in a "safe" situation if I'm not changing anything, or influencing anything... that's why I don't think I'm 6. (I thought I was for a while). I might be 3, but I don't think I pretend to be someone I'm not. I do the opposite - I try too hard to show the "real" me. I always correct myself if I think I mislead the other person. I might be 1, but I doubt it.

I haven't found out new things about myself, but I have noticed one thing. I go from hyper psycho-blabber-bitch to shy and slightly autistic depending on the company I'm in. And I can't really decide which one I will be. It just happens. Some people make me hyper, some people make me dry/harsh, some people make me have a fake smile.


uninspired, you post was very sweet and it made me smile even when I read it for the third time.

[Expat]

I can't decide which enneagram I am. I might be either 3 or 6 or maybe something else. My main purpose in life is to have a purpose in life. I can't stay still in a "safe" situation if I'm not changing anything, or influencing anything... that's why I don't think I'm 6. (I thought I was for a while). I might be 3, but I don't think I pretend to be someone I'm not. I do the opposite - I try too hard to show the "real" me. I always correct myself if I think I mislead the other person. I might be 1, but I doubt it.

My personal opinion is that the above is consistent with being 6.

I haven't found out new things about myself, but I have noticed one thing. I go from hyper psycho-blabber-bitch to shy and slightly autistic depending on the company I'm in. And I can't really decide which one I will be. It just happens. Some people make me hyper, some people make me dry/harsh, some people make me have a fake smile.

Well this seems like a good fit for EJ temperament first and focus second.

Validity? Far less than Socionics in it's pure form is. Exactly...confusing.

That is your judgement, not mine. I much prefer Socionics to the Enneagram, but in cases where there is difficulty with the Socionics type (as in Kristiina's) I think the Enneagram can provide a different angle of looking of looking at things and provide some clues. My sole purpose when referring to the Enneagram is to make Socionics work better. You don't see me starting to use the Enneagram straightaway in most of the typing threads.

Push your new candy elsewhere.

I really don't understand what you can possibly hope to accomplish with this kind of "argument" which to me is totally baffling.

I hereby state that, although my main focus has been and will continue to be Socionics, I will continue to refer to the Enneagram whenever I consider it to be useful to understanding the Socionics question at hand.

[Creepy-pokeball]

I hereby state that, although my main focus has been and will continue to be Socionics, I will continue to refer to the Enneagram whenever I consider it to be useful to understanding the Socionics question at hand.

Duh.