LIIs/INTjs and negativism: not great around new people and situations

[UDP]

Your main goal must ultimately lie with something global, or at least big picture. If you are really T subtype, maybe not. But otherwise, as an INTj, your focus is on the big picture.

The difficulty here is that..... we're not great around new people and situations. But at the same time, like it or not, our ideals and goals and visions will deal with people, and the human side of things. So there is a great deal of reservation. Even today, in a situation where everything was theoretically there -- I went to a club meeting that involved issues such as global unity and cross cultural harmony -- I was still incredibly reserved, and was completely reliant on my ego block, and more so my leading function. When asked to supply a fun fact about myself, it was a logically good attempt, but it was so laden with that it was a little odd. But the point here is that we must not be discouraged.

We, as INTjs, must still get out and interact with others, but just expect it to be a slow process at first. We work from a point and spread out, so finding that point might take a while, but be patient. And once you've got it, keep going. If it's something worth the time, then it's worth the patience and persitence, too.


It might even be very, very beneficial to interact with people as much as possible (within reason for your INTj needs), so that you can consistently update your paradigms on how to interact with others, and also, so that you can gauge your thoughts with reality. I usually build up an intense reservation when going out, especially going to a new club setting where it is blatantly obvious that I am new and don't know anyone. But you can develop courage and self confidence by going through with it anyway. I recommend INTjs to get involved with anything they are intersted in, especially if it has to deal with leadrship or big picture stuff or global issues, etc. Don't let your reservedness get in the way of the contributions you could make.



PS: and if at all possible, try to go to a meeting for the first time with someone else. I think it's a lot easier to look completely stand-off-ish or just like "I don't care and I don't want to be here, either", if you are alone. That is what happened to me today, part of the time. But being around someone I knew made it much easier. Again, don't let that threshold intimidate you -- getting on the other side, and becoming more than a very distant aquaintence can allow for more relaxation, and more influence, too.

PPS: another recommendation -- find something to do. I really dislike random socializing, still, even though I know it's good for me, etc. So ask the people in charge if they need anything to be done, or whatever. Sitting around is boring enough as it is, but through work or a job, you might be more comforatable, and it will also grant you much easier converstaion material, then having to generate 'smalltalk' from your own self. Because, as everyone should know, unless we are in a good mood, INTjs just don't care. ...so, remember --- doing stuff might be a better option than just sitting around.

[oyburger]

The difficulty here is that..... we're not great around new people and situations. But at the same time, like it or not, our ideals and goals and visions will deal with people, and the human side of things. So there is a great deal of reservation.

Sadly this is true. I've come to this understanding for awhile now but it still stops me in my tracks.

It might even be very, very beneficial to interact with people as much as possible (within reason for your INTj needs), so that you can consistently update your paradigms on how to interact with others, and also, so that you can gauge your thoughts with reality. I usually build up an intense reservation when going out, especially going to a new club setting where it is blatantly obvious that I am new and don't know anyone. But you can develop courage and self confidence by going through with it anyway.

Everyone tells me this and sometimes it works out, but more times than not I end up beating myself up afterwards because it seems like the interaction was a failure.

I recommend INTjs to get involved with anything they are intersted in, especially if it has to deal with leadrship or big picture stuff or global issues, etc. Don't let your reservedness get in the way of the contributions you could make.

Good advice, to late for me though.

Your interactions sound very similar to mine but its such a draining experience all and all its hard to get myself motivated to get out there.

[UDP]

Good advice, to late for me though.

I can understand that you might say that because you've got kids now and stuff (right?). But don't write yourself off completely. Oyburger-robespierre might be right around the corner... especially ifyou come across the right motivation.

[oyburger]

Good advice, to late for me though.

I can understand that you might say that because you've got kids now and stuff (right?). But don't write yourself off completely. Oyburger-robespierre might be right around the corner... especially ifyou come across the right motivation.

Haha no kids for me, I meant that I seem to set in my ways and its even harder for me to get out there now than it used to because of that.

[UDP]

I said kids because I thought I saw one with you when you were doing that video for the INFjs walking weird thread. But I'm not good with people in that way, , so don't mind me

[oyburger]

I said kids because I thought I saw one with you when you were doing that video for the INFjs walking weird thread. But I'm not good with people in that way, , so don't mind me

There were kids there, I was babysitting some cousins. Some of the reason I made that video was to keep them entertained.

[UDP]

oh my bad

[Logos]

Your main goal must ultimately lie with something global, or at least big picture. If you are really T subtype, maybe not. But otherwise, as an INTj, your focus is on the big picture.

Agreed.

The difficulty here is that..... we're not great around new people and situations. But at the same time, like it or not, our ideals and goals and visions will deal with people, and the human side of things. So there is a great deal of reservation.

True, we are by type quite reserved. This seeming weakness, however, can be utilized as a strength. I think that there is a part of the reservation that is simply the INTj trying to learn about the other person and trying to establish a sort of common vocabulary that will help them to better express their ideas to the other person. But because of this reservation, and the fact that INTjs speak rarely, when the INTj does speak the group listens attentively. Since we do not speak often, others believe that what say is important or at least worth considering since we bothered to speak at all. This is especially true after the INTj has established their "credentials" with a particular individual or group.

Even today, in a situation where everything was theoretically there -- I went to a club meeting that involved issues such as global unity and cross cultural harmony -- I was still incredibly reserved, and was completely reliant on my ego block, and more so my leading function. When asked to supply a fun fact about myself, it was a logically good attempt, but it was so laden with that it was a little odd. But the point here is that we must not be discouraged.

Yeah, that fun icebreaker. :sigh: That may be difficult due to the often mundane nature of most fun facts, and none of which generally interest the INTj.

We, as INTjs, must still get out and interact with others, but just expect it to be a slow process at first. We work from a point and spread out, so finding that point might take a while, but be patient. And once you've got it, keep going. If it's something worth the time, then it's worth the patience and persitence, too.

Again, agreed. INTjs are quite thorough in this: carefully placed questions, information-gathering, and proding in discussions (often devil's advocate).

It might even be very, very beneficial to interact with people as much as possible (within reason for your INTj needs), so that you can consistently update your paradigms on how to interact with others, and also, so that you can gauge your thoughts with reality. I usually build up an intense reservation when going out, especially going to a new club setting where it is blatantly obvious that I am new and don't know anyone. But you can develop courage and self confidence by going through with it anyway. I recommend INTjs to get involved with anything they are intersted in, especially if it has to deal with leadrship or big picture stuff or global issues, etc. Don't let your reservedness get in the way of the contributions you could make.

This is where the ESFj comes in. The ESFj likes to bring out the best in people, so the INTj represents a work in progress. But the ESFj makes it an issue to get the INTj out socializing more, and will enjoy having the INTj as company if for no other reason than their unique perspective on things outside of their normal comfort zone.

[UDP]

True, we are by type quite reserved. This seeming weakness, however, can be utilized as a strength. I think that there is a part of the reservation that is simply the INTj trying to learn about the other person and trying to establish a sort of common vocabulary that will help them to better express their ideas to the other person. But because of this reservation, and the fact that INTjs speak rarely, when the INTj does speak the group listens attentively. Since we do not speak often, others believe that what say is important or at least worth considering since we bothered to speak at all. This is especially true after the INTj has established their "credentials" with a particular individual or group.

This is where the ESFj comes in. The ESFj likes to bring out the best in people, so the INTj represents a work in progress. But the ESFj makes it an issue to get the INTj out socializing more, and will enjoy having the INTj as company if for no other reason than their unique perspective on things outside of their normal comfort zone.

Yes, very good things for INTjs to keep in mind.

[Apollonian]

Here here. Once again well spoken UDP.

I have come to see that, as an INTj, if I can conceptualize "socializing" as a system that it becomes much easier. Systems I can understand. It is 'society' which boggles me. So, I read a couple books on "The Art of Small Talk" and on reading people (ie with the likes of MBTI and socionics) and then begin to add some experience into building up a "model of social interaction".

Once I began to put a system together in my mind, complete with a model of why it is that people act "standoffish" as UDP mentions... then I can act based upon knowledge rather than sit there not knowing what to do. More specifically, there are some situations where I find myself perfectly content (and not anxious/standoffish) to simply stand by myself and observe the social setting until either someone approaches me or I see someone (or something) interesting.

Ultimately, I think that most people at clubs/parties/other-social-gatherings are too concerned with their own awkwardness to notice ours. Then again, INTj's can be pretty darn awkward at times. Still, chances are that the people who would label us as standoffish wouldn't interest us anyway...or might at some later time become a good 'sparring partner' (read 'victim') in a heated philosophical debate.

It sure is darn hard to pick out other INTj's at a party though. Surprisingly, they all look just as human as the rest of us

Lastly, I have also found that when an INTj tries to socialize toward the goal of attracting the opposite sex into a romantic relationship (or even the possibility thereof) all my above comments get thrown out the window and the INTj is clueless once and for all. I attribute INTj's finding a suitable romantic partner to Divine providence and a little blind luck.

[Logos]

Lastly, I have also found that when an INTj tries to socialize toward the goal of attracting the opposite sex into a romantic relationship (or even the possibility thereof) all my above comments get thrown out the window and the INTj is clueless once and for all. I attribute INTj's finding a suitable romantic partner to Divine providence and a little blind luck.

Amen! And since divine providence doesn't exist, INTjs are eternally screwed. I do not think that INTjs are afraid of the idea of romance, but are so terribly awkward at it that they might as well be afraid of romance.

[UDP]

That's when you don't think.

That's when you go by what you feel, which is incredibly hard, and will likely take years of focused training to overcome. If youre an INTj (espeically the guys) I suggest you start now. Consider perhaps that acting on your own desires is actually what the girl wants.

The best thing for you tto do is dress well, so that you at least look good, appealng. You can catch attention that way, especially from ESFjs.

[oyburger]

I attribute INTj's finding a suitable romantic partner to Divine providence and a little blind luck.

True. I've thought of this myself actually.

[Apollonian]

Actually, I'm more interested still in the non-romantic social model. I still haven't completely figured it out.

Is it really just a matter of talking to so many people that, statistically and demographically speaking, you will eventually run into a potential friend who can relate? Somehow it seems that the process should be more intelligent than that, but maybe it isn't.

It's frustrating going to social organizations only to find that either I don't have a way of meeting most of the group without making a commitment to join or that I do meet most of the people and there is no one interesting there. I had a thought about how Facebook and MySpace make the process of "meeting" people far easier, but ultimately they are crutches since they do not actually involve any interaction. And if you were to find someone interesting on MySpace or Facebook, there would be a slight stalkerish implication to approaching in person. Then again, I know of people who have done this quite successfully, but it is definately the exception.

[Fry]

........ So, I read a couple books on "The Art of Small Talk" ...........

no you didn't!!

i am getting that book now.

ps: i have the book called" how to make friend and influence people" i've read it twice. i understand its meaning behind it. It tells you to be an actor, do and say things like a social monkey, the street smart. To me, why should i hide my feeling and become a different person? I just want to be myself and be unique. No deception. I prefer the right thing more than the smart thing.

[oyburger]

I just want to be myself and be unique. No deception. I prefer the right thing more than the smart thing.

Thats what I've been doing for awhile now and I feel more comfortable with myself because of it.

[Apollonian]

ps: i have the book called" how to make friend and influence people"... I just want to be myself and be unique. No deception. I prefer the right thing more than the smart thing.

Carnegie isn't proposing that we be superficial monkeys, though it may seem like it. The principles in his book are sound common sense.

Become genuinely interested in other people (when you are interested in other people, and when you are not then leave). The point here is: don't be phony.

Smile (it won't kill you...)

Remember people's names. That's pretty sensical.

Get other people to talk about themselves (which is unfortunately the only real way to figure out if they are worth talking to.)

Don't correct people's stupidity (when it wouldn't do any good anyhow...far better to simply drop subtle hints so they end up confusing themselves and then deny you had any part in it). No need to be deceptive, just don't go out of your way to piss people off.

etc.

The point is to be sincere. Just don't be sincere and aloof. I think a lot of times INTjs can think they are being "true to themselves" when really all they are doing is responding to stereotypes rather than really looking at the situation around them. Moreover, you need to give other people a chance to show who they are...and it should be pretty easy to see who is being genuine and who isn't. Personally, I don't think the above 'rules' apply to interacting with people who are not genuine themselves. In that case, go all out and piss them off, but I would suggest you be true to that subtle socratic way that INTjs seem to have of getting people to face their own contradictions rather than a bout of "yes its obvious vs no you're an idiot".

[UDP]

........ So, I read a couple books on "The Art of Small Talk" ...........

no you didn't!!

i am getting that book now.

ps: i have the book called" how to make friend and influence people" i've read it twice. i understand its meaning behind it. It tells you to be an actor, do and say things like a social monkey, the street smart. To me, why should i hide my feeling and become a different person? I just want to be myself and be unique. No deception. I prefer the right thing more than the smart thing.

FRY --- check out a book called "Shambhala: The Sacred Path Of The Warrior". You might like it.


PS: Speaking of which, I've been pretty bad today.

[science as magic]

I just want to be myself and be unique. No deception. I prefer the right thing more than the smart thing.

maybe i am istj. i've found that i have a desire for expediency and self sustainability. i'd rather do the cruel thing to attain this end than live within bounds that deny it to me.

[Ederico]

Whenever I do the test (I use the one here: http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm) I always get INTJ whenever I vote accordingly (ergo, when not burdened with stress or some current problem, when I vote as I am rather than I or even worse someone else would think best).

Personally, I don't really have a problem socializing, actually I'm told I'm quite outgoing although I'm not the one to start a conversation just for socializing. However, I do get in a conversation when it starts sounding interesting and especially when I have figured out the basic traits and positions of those involved. When I get in, my worst defect is that I demolish everyone's position to prove my own, therefore at times I keep it simple listen and joke to avoid being perceived as arrogant (and when I refute someone's thesis I don't do them to spite them, but more to teach them or to avoid having them giving problems to others).

I must say I was very much socially introverted and shy when I was younger. I'm 24 now and I have no problem socializing. Actually, sometimes I need to get to know how to deal better with certain people which might think I'm being over-confident in there regard.

In new environments where I know no one, I do "suffer", although for me those are opportunities to "study" the environment and most importantly to think. Not the first time I isolated myself in a bar, merely to think alone, and that also happens when I'm with friends.

[meatburger]

Lastly, I have also found that when an INTj tries to socialize toward the goal of attracting the opposite sex into a romantic relationship (or even the possibility thereof) all my above comments get thrown out the window and the INTj is clueless once and for all. I attribute INTj's finding a suitable romantic partner to Divine providence and a little blind luck.

Hmm thats a little sad. It would be hard for things to be like that. I haven't had a girlfriend in a long time and every girlfriend i have had has been met over the internet or by what i feel like is total chance. I would also like to pick the girl i want and court her. Im not really that good at doing it either.

"How to win friends and influence people" is a great book. I have read it myself and i enjoyed it. I didn't really learn anything though.The whole book seemed ENFp. Maybe Carnigie is ENFp? i dunno

Anyway i agree with UDP about being yourself. Dont try to be anything than that. I have only recently realised that i was projecting some type of fake . It got me nowhere. Now that i have dropped the act things seem to be much better.

[UDP]

For an alterative perspective to sheer "personality ethics", check out Covey's 7 Habits book. It focuses on the Character ethich.......

WHich has a lot to do with why INTjs don't like ENFps sometimes. INTjs can see the ENFps as just personality and not character.

[UDP]

Part of another difficulty has to do with the nature of INTjs, and why we aren't always practical ---


I really dislike anything that I "Have To Do", based on outside factors. Just now ((and what made me write this post)), I remembered something that I have to do for tomorrow. My initial reaction, which I vocalized, was "Oh No...".

It isn't that the assimnent is too difficult, or that I haven't enough time to do it. It is just that I remembered something that -- not only came up instantly (in terms of my mental plan for the rest of the day), (so it was a 'interruption'), but it is something that I "HAVE TO DO" -- and I don't like it when things like that try to take over me. It is a subordination issue, almost.

I suppose the best thing to do is just try to be in a calm state of mind as much as possible, and realize when you get upset. Even if you're deep in a mental train of thought, and something comes up, don't get frustrated, just make a note of it, and realize that you have to do it.


That's not much advice, but it is really just my reaction to my current situation.

[Search]

I dont think for me, it is as much of being very selective of who I choose to interact with vs. not being social at all.
I actually really enjoy the people I choose to be social with.
Much more quality vs. quantity than anything else.
I also have no patience internally wasting time and effort on chit chat with anyone other than with whom I select on purpose.
I can see why people have always though of me as 'stuck-up' or whatever. I in no way think myself above anyone, I just dont have much to say to people I dont understand.........

wow, I sound like a B*TCH! :wink:

[oyburger]

I dont think for me, it is as much of being very selective of who I choose to interact with vs. not being social at all.
I actually really enjoy the people I choose to be social with.
Much more quality vs. quantity than anything else.
I also have no patience internally wasting time and effort on chit chat with anyone other than with whom I select on purpose.
I can see why people have always though of me as 'stuck-up' or whatever. I in no way think myself above anyone, I just dont have much to say to people I dont understand.........

wow, I sound like a B*TCH! :wink:

No you don't, you sound like me :wink:

@UDP, I know exactly what you mean. It brings a sinking feeling into the pit of my stomach.

[UDP]

I dont think for me, it is as much of being very selective of who I choose to interact with vs. not being social at all.
I actually really enjoy the people I choose to be social with.
Much more quality vs. quantity than anything else.
I also have no patience internally wasting time and effort on chit chat with anyone other than with whom I select on purpose.
I can see why people have always though of me as 'stuck-up' or whatever. I in no way think myself above anyone, I just dont have much to say to people I dont understand.........

wow, I sound like a B*TCH! :wink:

I'll third that.

[Apollonian]

The key to the "HAVE TO DO" problem (I think) lies in some of what Covey has written: Be Proactive, Begin with the End in Mind, Put First Things First.

I find that I too have trouble with "HAVE-TO's". The solution of course is to plan the "WILL-DO's" such that the "HAVE-TO's" never come up. Yet, the tension between the "WILL-DO" and the "WANT-TO" is usually where the problem lies. Many unsavory things need to get done to accomplish goals. Ultimately, one must bight the bullet now or later. Now is rough, but gives a sense of mild satisfaction. Later usually creates a mild sense of doom at the idea that the INTj is losing control over their reality.

It is like a sort of "Get them before they get you" mentality.

Has anyone here watched Naruto? The character Shikamaru is very much the INTj as far as I can tell. With an IQ somewhere over 200 and a dull lack of desire to do anything to help those who act stupid and helpless. Yet, he ends up helping them anyway out of duty to his station in life because in a way he knows he "HAS-TO". The word in Japanese is: Mendoku'sei - "Troublesome" which he says repeatedly throughout the early series. Despite this, he ends up being the only student to get promoted to the higher rank of Chunin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikamaru_Nara

[UDP]

Ah, thanks for posting that

[UDP]

!


yeah........

The key to the "HAVE TO DO" problem (I think) lies in some of what Covey has written: Be Proactive, Begin with the End in Mind, Put First Things First.

I find that I too have trouble with "HAVE-TO's". The solution of course is to plan the "WILL-DO's" such that the "HAVE-TO's" never come up. Yet, the tension between the "WILL-DO" and the "WANT-TO" is usually where the problem lies. Many unsavory things need to get done to accomplish goals. Ultimately, one must bight the bullet now or later. Now is rough, but gives a sense of mild satisfaction. Later usually creates a mild sense of doom at the idea that the INTj is losing control over their reality.

It is like a sort of "Get them before they get you" mentality.

A good does of accountibility can sure leave an impression. The practical nature of reviewing every night and studying consistently can be somewhat avoided, but then it becomes as you said -- I lose control of my world.

I think this is why INTjs can be "paranoid" (socion description), because they know that threat (even schoolwork) can be there. I think I have been sucessfully scarred, in terms of the first 5 weeks of this semester. I don't think I can forget, and I don't want to forget. Rushing to try to gain competncy for a test is not my style, and not enjoyable at all. I would much rather put in conistent work every day, and have a system, as opposed to "rushing". I did that in HS, and "I'm too old for it" nowadays. I've got better thigns to do, and it hurts my - which affects how I can use my .


Soooooo................

If I use to plan with to take care of as much as possible, I think that will be the best bet. Of course I have to take it in the ass until Thursday, but I am greatly waiting until I get a chance to refresh. Studing and cramming non stop makes me feel like a ....... ...... a civillian.... a mundan-er. Grotesque, in a word.


I can use my past experiences in this, combined with this wonderful experience, as a sort of Griever.... I think Squall is a good example of someone who is rational, or at least has a good work ethic.


...... I've been able to blend T into F.....
I wonder if I can work N into S in a similar manner.

Really, though, it's just about balance. I suppose that's the truth. Whatever is lopsided will be proven lacking and can be exploited as a weakness.


PS: I suppose that is why a logical subtype INTj might be more disciplined (stereotypically), as a very rational LII would recognize the weakness and work to avoid it via hard work. Just like worrying about health or physical well being. I don't know. I don't have time to think about this post, I'm studying for 2 exams, even while typing....


more later

[duntee]

ps: i have the book called" how to make friend and influence people" i've read it twice. i understand its meaning behind it. It tells you to be an actor, do and say things like a social monkey, the street smart. To me, why should i hide my feeling and become a different person? I just want to be myself and be unique. No deception. I prefer the right thing more than the smart thing.

I think that is the best approach anyway. No one can keep up a mask for all eternity...eventually your true self will emerge. And everyone has social skills to some degree, it is the initial approach that you seem to have a problem with.

The INTjs I know are very funny and relaxed once you know them. They are also great conversationalists (if the topic is deemed interesting or worth it).

I disagree with whatever book you have...don't act. You're interesting enough as it is.

[duntee]

ps: i have the book called" how to make friend and influence people"... I just want to be myself and be unique. No deception. I prefer the right thing more than the smart thing.

Carnegie isn't proposing that we be superficial monkeys, though it may seem like it. The principles in his book are sound common sense.

Become genuinely interested in other people (when you are interested in other people, and when you are not then leave). The point here is: don't be phony.

Smile (it won't kill you...)

Remember people's names. That's pretty sensical.

Get other people to talk about themselves (which is unfortunately the only real way to figure out if they are worth talking to.)

Don't correct people's stupidity (when it wouldn't do any good anyhow...far better to simply drop subtle hints so they end up confusing themselves and then deny you had any part in it). No need to be deceptive, just don't go out of your way to piss people off.

etc.

The point is to be sincere. Just don't be sincere and aloof. I think a lot of times INTjs can think they are being "true to themselves" when really all they are doing is responding to stereotypes rather than really looking at the situation around them. Moreover, you need to give other people a chance to show who they are...and it should be pretty easy to see who is being genuine and who isn't. Personally, I don't think the above 'rules' apply to interacting with people who are not genuine themselves. In that case, go all out and piss them off, but I would suggest you be true to that subtle socratic way that INTjs seem to have of getting people to face their own contradictions rather than a bout of "yes its obvious vs no you're an idiot".

Well said.