I don't get dual relationships (duality)

[huiheiwufhawriuhg]

They just seem so...blunt, unrealistic.
There's a fine idea going on in the theory itself. Two people valuing similar functions help each other to prosper and grow. The weak function can count on their partner's strengths and and vice versa. The two don't devalue each other because they know they need wha the other partner have. But... looking at it more realistically.

How can for example an ILI ever meet an SEE. SEEs are stereotypically the adventurous, party loving extroverts. ILIs are analytical, deep and intelligent beings who enjoy their alone time to think and to recharge. I just don't see how this is supposed to work.
Another example IEIs and SLEs. they both value Se and Ti, Ni and Fe. SLE's Ni is weak, IEI's Se is weak. Now imagine a football player going to the quiet girl in the corner who just finishes her poem for the creative writing class when he suddenly starts to talk about how he scored zillion and one on the game and then talks about football rules and buddies from the team. What is the poor girl supposed to do, when she's interested in art and poetry and doesn't give a damn about his football game?
Those are just few examples, but looking at it realistically. I can hardly imagine an artistic senstive people grouping up with impulsive sportmen, or analytcal educated men hooking up with the "live of the party" girls.


So...how is this suppoused to work?...In real life?

[Beautiful sky]

Lol Fay
My ILI friend was experiencing very bad posture problems when she took her delicate and fragile body to her SEE future husband chiropractor who asked her out after giving her an adjustment. No parties involved lol.

I set up a young SLE with his sister's IEI friend. The sister is SLE too and she made friends with the IEI in school. In math class

[Muddy]

Well this is exactly what sucks about duality and life in general. Even though duality has the most potential that does not mean it is the easiest to start, in fact it is one of the more difficult type of relationships to start. This is largely due to duals being in opposite clubs, in which one's dual is mixed in with their superegos/conflictors which may cause to someone to make the mistake of believing it is best to avoid members of their opposite club altogether. The other reason for this is that duals are unlikely to meet because their fields of activity are very distant from one another. For example, an NT may spend most of his time on the internet while an SF would be doing things like going to community events. Even when you do manage to get into close contact with your dual you might think they are too good for you or that there is some sort of catch.

[Spermatozoa]

Well this is exactly what sucks about duality and life in general. Even though duality has the most potential that does not mean it is the easiest to start, in fact it is one of the more difficult type of relationships to start. This is largely due to duals being in opposite clubs, in which one's dual is mixed in with their superegos/conflictors which may cause to someone to make the mistake of believing it is best to avoid members of their opposite club altogether. The other reason for this is that duals are unlikely to meet because their fields of activity are very distant from one another. For example, an NT may spend most of his time on the internet while an SF would be doing things like going to community events. Even when you do manage to get into close contact with your dual you might think they are too good for you or that there is some sort of catch.

This is why I think college halls, fraternities and particularly the workplace are environments you are more likely to find a dual in than one's interest groups. While churches I hear can be effective, I would view young women from liberal Protestant churches or the Catholic church with the same suspicion that I would those from a Marxist party chapter. I was fortunate to have a mostly positive experience when I interned at a film unit last year, so my suggestion would be to look of a workplace where people from different departments, and of different levels of seniority interact socially after work. Generic clubs, meetups and online dating are not an effective way to form intimate relationships, because they are too casual and easy to cancel out of.

[uncivilized]

Another example IEIs and SLEs. they both value Se and Ti, Ni and Fe. SLE's Ni is weak, IEI's Se is weak. Now imagine a football player going to the quiet girl in the corner who just finishes her poem for the creative writing class when he suddenly starts to talk about how he scored zillion and one on the game and then talks about football rules and buddies from the team. What is the poor girl supposed to do, when she's interested in art and poetry and doesn't give a damn about his football game?

A SLE could be impressed by the writing ability and thoughts of an IEI, and an IEI impressed by the physical prowess/competitiveness of a SLE. All over the internet, you will find IEI type women wanting mates who are outgoing, tough, non-emotional, productive. You'll also find SLE type men being attracted to introverted, feeling types of women. Just as a personal example, I once knew a woman who was a very gifted artist. I have no interest in producing visual art or keeping up with that world, but I was interested in the art she would create. I think in the same way, an IEI might not be interested in SLE type pursuits generally, but they might make an exception for a particular SLE. Even if a SLE isn't interested in poetry, the SLE might find it attractive somehow seeing their IEI love-interest reading such words with feeling, or just observing that such feeling and/or talent exists in their significant other.

How can for example an ILI ever meet an SEE. SEEs are stereotypically the adventurous, party loving extroverts. ILIs are analytical, deep and intelligent beings who enjoy their alone time to think and to recharge. I just don't see how this is supposed to work.

Meeting a romantic partner that is a dual might be difficult, but there is something refreshing and invigorating about being drawn into the sphere of your dual, and how they allow you to draw them into yours. They validate each other naturally if they're psychologically healthy and other variables are in alignment.

[Olimpia]

(...) IEI impressed by the physical prowess/competitiveness of a SLE.

Yes!

When I was younger, I'd always crush on the guys who were the best in PE class.

[lemontrees]

Yes!

When I was younger, I'd always crush on the guys who were the best in PE class.

lmao, i'd always crush on guys who were intellectually killing it. one of those guys *was* an SLE though, he was sort of hermetic (sp/sx) and read about everything and when i didn't know something would explain it to me as if *anyone* would know ... luved it, haha

[Olimpia]

lmao, i'd always crush on guys who were intellectually killing it. one of those guys *was* an SLE though, he was sort of hermetic (sp/sx) and read about everything and when i didn't know something would explain it to me as if *anyone* would know ... luved it, haha

Sp/Sx SLEs, do they even exist?
It sounds more like that intellectual hermetic sp/sx guy was rather SLI-Te.

(Te = "what everyone (should) know(s)")

P.S: And yeah, I was never really attracted to guys "killing it intellectually" per se, haha.
Though I'd like them to be somewhat witty, of course...

[Beautiful sky]

Yes!

When I was younger, I'd always crush on the guys who were the best in PE class.

I wish that you will find a very nice SLE

He will be commander general of such and such and willl know how to cook.

[Beautiful sky]

Yes!

When I was younger, I'd always crush on the guys who were the best in PE class.

lol
How about the possibility of meeting an LSE instead because they tend to become the best at something that they pick up. How do you recognize them from SLE

[Olimpia]

lol
How about the possibility of meeting an LSE instead because they tend to become the best at something that they pick up. How do you recognize them from SLE

From afar they may look the same, but at a closer distance and with enough "soul probing", you can see whether they are Se or Te lead - the difference is pretty clear to me.
Besides that, EP temperament is much more flexible and likes "going with the flow" and adapting to the situation opposed to EJ.

At the end of the day, the Quadra values will come forward...
LSE can put on an Fe (Role) facade, but they don't truly value it. Most of the time, they don't care for having boisterous laughter in an interaction. They don't mind it as much as an Fe PoLR would, but they are not really attached to it. Whereas an SLE (esp. Se subtype) will try to "force" to have an Fe-inclusive interaction in certain ways. (The Ti subtype less likely so, but they will look out for interactions that have the "Fe factor", whereas LSE is totally fine without it.)

Most importantly, an LSE will belittle someone's Ni or find it insubstantial, too fickle. Whereas an Ni-seeking type like SLE will welcome insight in the future and gain inspiration/motivation from Ni.

At last, the Aggressor Romance style is remarkably different from the Caretaker one. Aggressors are much more stimulated by "chasing" someone and winning their admiration, whereas an LSE Caretaker will like to find someone they can teach and take care of in certain ways.

[darya]

From afar they may look the same, but at a closer distance and with enough "soul probing", you can see whether they are Se or Te lead - the difference is pretty clear to me.
Besides that, EP temperament is much more flexible and likes "going with the flow" and adapting to the situation opposed to EJ.

At the end of the day, the Quadra values will come forward...
LSE can put on an Fe (Role) facade, but they don't truly value it. Most of the time, they don't care for having boisterous laughter in an interaction. They don't mind it as much as an Fe PoLR would, but they are not really attached to it. Whereas an SLE (esp. Se subtype) will try to "force" to have an Fe-inclusive interaction in certain ways. (The Ti subtype less likely so, but they will look out for interactions that have the "Fe factor", whereas LSE is totally fine without it.)

Most importantly, an LSE will belittle someone's Ni or find it insubstantial, too fickle. Whereas an Ni-seeking type like SLE will welcome insight in the future and gain inspiration/motivation from Ni.

At last, the Aggressor Romance style is remarkably different from the Caretaker one. Aggressors are much more stimulated by "chasing" someone and winning their admiration, whereas an LSE Caretaker will like to find someone they can teach and take care of in certain ways.

I swear I'm not picking on you, Sis (you probably hate me by now ), I just wanted to point out that while I agree with romancing styles in general, especially at the beginning of the relationships, these roles can later become muddy. My dad is LSI for example, Se subtype, and he can be remarkably patronizing and "teachery" with my EIE mom and me. Teaches us the correct way to clean or do things for example or is smartassy about the ways of life. He's also very worried and protective of us (e6). I've noticed that in several other LSI's (imo all SJ's are like that to an extent) and E-types.It's not always related to Si ego.

[hatesyardwork]

Meeting a romantic partner that is a dual might be difficult, but there is something refreshing and invigorating about being drawn into the sphere of your dual, and how they allow you to draw them into yours. They validate each other naturally if they're psychologically healthy and other variables are in alignment.

Yep

[Jarno]

How can for example an ILI ever meet an SEE. SEEs are stereotypically the adventurous, party loving extroverts. ILIs are analytical, deep and intelligent beings who enjoy their alone time to think and to recharge. I just don't see how this is supposed to work.

SEE can be lazy people too, they are quite easy going, you know who is also easy going, ILI.

When they talk to eachother they light up. This has nothing to do whether one is adventurous or not.

Also don't overreact to the introvert extravert thing. SEE need time on the couch too, i have an SEE friend he doesn't like visitors during the week, that's 5 evenings alone. I however like to visit friends 3 or 4 times during the week.

Where you meet, well I met a lot during my internet dating time lol, but you can meet them everywhere, just like all the other types. I actually have met very few ILI girls, which according to your reasoning I should have.

Stop theorizing and imagining, start seeing how things work out in real life. This is my number one advice.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

How can for example an ILI ever meet an SEE. SEEs are stereotypically the adventurous, party loving extroverts. ILIs are analytical, deep and intelligent beings who enjoy their alone time to think and to recharge. I just don't see how this is supposed to work

The other person takes care of all the shit you really don't wanna do, so you both complement each other's weak points and so you both can be your narcissistic selves with the most comfort. Say you have Starfall on a date with an omega male. Starfall wants to be spat on during sex. The omega male.... also wants to be spat on. They both want a hot black guy to spit on them, and none are wanting to do the spitting themselves. It's just awkward. I mean maybe not even awkward. Maybe they get along great but still something is missing. After all 'getting along well' is also too easily friendzoned.

You need the spark of differences to be attracted to somebody. You do still need things in common and equality to make something last, but the fires of attraction are created via opposites. Not to be all heteronormative or anything.... but yeah. *lol still remembers the time when @lungs cutely used the word heteronormative in a sentence.*

So you then instead pair Starfall with a more dominant male that spits on her and volia you have compatibility. The dominant str8 black dude wants to spit, and she wants to be spat on.

(Lol I know that example was kind of crude but funny and accurate. <3 Starfall)

[Sol]

Two people valuing similar functions help each other to prosper and grow.

May support each other as friends do. Best IR for this among 16.

> How can for example an ILI ever meet an SEE. SEEs are stereotypically the adventurous, party loving extroverts.

INTP may be in places wich visit ESFP. People often make couples with those they study, work, live near. INTPs visit public places like cafes, parks, etc. There are many ways where introverts meet extraverts. Sometimes they get interest and get to know on streets, but it's less common.

> I just don't see how this is supposed to work.

You never saw extraverts in places you visit? Really? Situation with INTPs is similar.

Now imagine a football player going to the quiet girl in the corner who just finishes her poem for the creative writing class

The ESTP sees a charming INFP girl, comes to her, begins to talk about something, about her. If the girl shows return interest and asks about him, an extravert may offer to spend more time together to know better each other. If the girl shows no interest but is liked significantly, then may be done 2nd, 3rd, ... try to establish relations. E-S types are persistent to compensate possible shyness, timidity, reticence of I-N types.

> and then talks about football rules

If ESTP is not an idiot he will find a theme interesting for both. The talk about own specific interests may happen on later step of relations.

I can hardly imagine an artistic senstive people grouping up with impulsive sportmen

Besides accidental meetings of people, I suppose in most cases couples are done where both study, work or live near.
Yep. ESTP and INFP may even work together, - in same office room, same company, etc.

[Olimpia]

irl, comes to her, begins to talk about something, about her. If the girl shows return interest and asks about him, an extravert may offer to spend more time together to know better each other. If the girl shows no interest but is liked significantly, then may be done 2nd, 3rd, ... try to establish relations. E-S types are persistent to compensate possible shyness, timidity, reticence of I-N types.

I had a charming SEE guy approach me recently. I was on my way to my car, wanting to finally get home after a long day at university.
He walked besides me, asking me whether we could talk. I held back a lot, hardly replying anything, exhibiting the typical Ni lead shyness and timidity, I suppose. Also I was not particularly interested, distracted.
Differently from other guys who have approached me in the past, my lack of clear verbal response or direct attention did not phase him at all, he kept "pushing", for a 2nd and 3rd time, but in a casual manner. Interestingly, this did not bother me, though I did want to get away, haha. Eventually he "gave up", and walked away, still smiling. My behaviour did not irritate or unsettle him, how I am used to observe with most other guys (who are often actually Childlike types, possibly taking note of my Si Role and being confused when I respond like a Victim, haha).

For me personally, the most interesting take-away from that short interaction was the fact I've felt like my mood had improved afterwards, haha! Even though I did not reciprocate his interest and rejected him. Usually, guys make me feel bad for rejecting them, and/or the interaction with them was so cringe-worthy I feel uncomfortable for a while afterwards. But this SEE guy, he did not "guilt-trip" me for not being interested and busy. His approach had actually made me feel better, haha. The magic of .

[Narc]

They just seem so...blunt, unrealistic.
There's a fine idea going on in the theory itself. Two people valuing similar functions help each other to prosper and grow. The weak function can count on their partner's strengths and and vice versa. The two don't devalue each other because they know they need wha the other partner have. But... looking at it more realistically.

How can for example an ILI ever meet an SEE. SEEs are stereotypically the adventurous, party loving extroverts. ILIs are analytical, deep and intelligent beings who enjoy their alone time to think and to recharge. I just don't see how this is supposed to work.
Another example IEIs and SLEs. they both value Se and Ti, Ni and Fe. SLE's Ni is weak, IEI's Se is weak. Now imagine a football player going to the quiet girl in the corner who just finishes her poem for the creative writing class when he suddenly starts to talk about how he scored zillion and one on the game and then talks about football rules and buddies from the team. What is the poor girl supposed to do, when she's interested in art and poetry and doesn't give a damn about his football game?
Those are just few examples, but looking at it realistically. I can hardly imagine an artistic senstive people grouping up with impulsive sportmen, or analytcal educated men hooking up with the "live of the party" girls.


So...how is this suppoused to work?...In real life?

Maybe you're having trouble imagining it because you're thinking about caricatures, rather than people. I've seen plenty of EP/IP pairups of all the possible dual dyads. Se types do find Ni types, it does happen. Ne types do find Si types (or maybe it's Si types who find Ne types, hah).

[ghost of forum past]

They're good for friendships for a long time - only after a significant period of time would a closer LTR work. Intimate duality requires emotional maturity, something that duals must first instill in each other. Quickly going into a dual relationship would be dangerous because both parties are just so different. Doesn't makes sense to most people until after a long period of time.

I think this process would take anywhere from several months to several years, if at all.

[Reficulris]

The best stories about love involve attraction, problems, overcoming those problems.


Yes, duals might not seem to have a lot in common at first, or seem "worlds appart" but that doesn't mean when it happens it won't be the best story.


I think duality happens less often then we think, but I think it's also kinda what we see in many stories about romance. They seem far out, or impossible sometimes, but it's still the best narrative.

I guess that's one of the things socionics could be useful for: being aware that your dual might not be the ideal person you're imagining and worth experimenting outside of your normal preferences/comfort zones.

Yes, talking to the poetry chick might be odd for the soccer player, or visa versa, but it might just be worth it. After all, poetry dorks are boring to poetry chicks(jk jk you sensitive IEI guys).

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

You can be sensitive and artistic and sporty and athletic all at the same time. You can be sweet and mean at the same time. It's called...bittersweet lol

I agree with Narc that u ppl think way too much in caricatures. It's like this defensive mechanism you have with people to avoid being hurt by them or something. Because other ppl's messy complications are hard to deal with, we simplify them in order to deal with them.

[carrina]

They just seem so...blunt, unrealistic.
There's a fine idea going on in the theory itself. Two people valuing similar functions help each other to prosper and grow. The weak function can count on their partner's strengths and and vice versa. The two don't devalue each other because they know they need wha the other partner have. But... looking at it more realistically.

How can for example an ILI ever meet an SEE. SEEs are stereotypically the adventurous, party loving extroverts. ILIs are analytical, deep and intelligent beings who enjoy their alone time to think and to recharge. I just don't see how this is supposed to work.
Another example IEIs and SLEs. they both value Se and Ti, Ni and Fe. SLE's Ni is weak, IEI's Se is weak. Now imagine a football player going to the quiet girl in the corner who just finishes her poem for the creative writing class when he suddenly starts to talk about how he scored zillion and one on the game and then talks about football rules and buddies from the team. What is the poor girl supposed to do, when she's interested in art and poetry and doesn't give a damn about his football game?
Those are just few examples, but looking at it realistically. I can hardly imagine an artistic senstive people grouping up with impulsive sportmen, or analytcal educated men hooking up with the "live of the party" girls.


So...how is this suppoused to work?...In real life?

First of all you should acknowledge that all gamma types are focused on productivity and important tasks. Just because SEEs are extroverted, active, and people centered doesn't mean they will always be partying. That's a ridiculous stereotype. It does happen but you're more likely to find *all types* partying when their culture groomed then to do so. That said, because of the amount of people in the world and the that all human activities are *fairly human* (not limited to specific types.) People within the same Quadra are likely to have very (v.e.r.y) similar interests. I'd add that people who love each other, share world views and goals, and respect each other will do well together regardless of type, and this pair will do better than two duals who don't see the similarities. It's not likely that these two will be nothing alike. It just so happens that when you find a dual that has these similarities you'll be inseparable. But i don't recommend looking for a dual (or a relationship; they should happen naturally). Bonus round: se valuing duals will often come together by accidentally bumping heads; this is how they are discovered. The success of duality is also partially due to the nature of conflict and growth. These relations *are not* free of conflict. However they do stimulate maturation and growth

[carrina]

Also i have a dual that I'm attracted to but that has a completely different worldview than myself. I have an activity partner that isn't as *sexy* (blech that came out gross) that i connect with soo well on that level. I'd opt for the second in a heartbeat.

[carrina]

Also, healthy, experienced people (that are actually ready for relationships) actually know that it's okay to have different interests. C'mon now that's textbook xP

[SongOfSapphire]

I just attended the wedding of a SEE(f)-ILI(m) couple a couple of weeks ago. They are, as you would imagine, crazy about each other. It's really sweet -- she teases him and is super outgoing and fun but also down-to-Earth, and he plays along w the teasing and is a little shy in general w his feelings but also smitten. It's very sweet.

Duals can and do find each other...just keep living your life and paying attention, and also know it may be up to you to get things started, whether directly or less obviously.

[ghost of forum past]

Duality works provided that both parties are sufficiently open-minded to associate with someone that is irreconcilably different from their own selves. For those lacking in patience it is not the best choice.

[chemical]

@Fay -- the reason you probably don't get it is that it doesn't really make sense, the way it is hyped up. I view socionics as excellent for classifying certain abstract patterns in how people see things, but there are many other factors affecting relationships, probably some far more relevant to some than socionics.

Also, I don't even think of the SEE/ILI as you say, in that I don't even associate very closely the extroversion of socionics to that of the Big 5, say. So I guess I don't associate SEE with the party-animals, and so on.
I think that's true of the MBTI analogue, maybe ESFP in the straight up test-measured dichotomies.

[Olimpia]

I have realized that there are certain aspects which make me feel less emotionally attracted/compatible to my Dual.

Aspects which are not related to Duality, but anything outside of that.

For instance, I have noticed I actually value matching political orientations a lot, more than I've previously thought (unconscious ftw).
If someone is too politically Conservative, I am disinclined to enter anything romantic with them. The mindset turns me off, relationship-wise. I could be sort of friends with the person, but not anything too close.
I find Conservative people are often too closed-minded (in certain areas) for my taste.

By that standard, I would probably choose a Liberal Semi-Dual (or Activity partner) over a Conservative Dual.

Just like Gulenko said, good Semi-Duality is better than bad Duality.

"Good" being the person with whom you are more compatible with in terms of lifestyle, values, and interests.

I know of Fi valuing types who are naturally primarily concerned with values, hence they often choose partners who share those values, before any compatible inter type relation.
They are more willing to be in a less ideal/matching intertype relation in favour of matching values.

Personally, I used to believe intertype relation ranked over everything; but this is not exactly the case anymore.

Now I am "just" looking for someone with whom I'll have a good intertype relation with... and shared goals/values/interests. Haha.
I am still leaning towards intertype relation > values, because certain types tend to have certain moral values due to their functional values... (And I don't care that much about moral values...)

But learning about Conservative SLEs has really opened my eyes, and made me realize that I would/could not want to be with a Conservative SLE.

[Myst]

For instance, I have noticed I actually value matching political orientations a lot, more than I've previously thought (unconscious ftw).

I don't think that has to do with Fi - I relate to finding this important myself, though significantly more in the religion area than in the political area

We are both artistic, but he is orderly, mathematical, and I am lyrical. We both like balance of design, but I approach it completely differently, as in the composition of a painting, and just "knowing", while his is planned and logical. And certain overly-mathematical compositions I STRONGLY object to. [Sometime if anyone is interested I will explain about his quintifoil idea - our first design disagreement] ...

Lol mathematical compositions, is he LII?

[Eliza Thomason]

I don't think that has to do with Fi - I relate to finding this important myself, though significantly more in the religion area than in the political area




Lol mathematical compositions, is he LII?

No. He is SLI. Also my SLE son likes math.. I think LII is not the only type that likes math... Also science, LII would not the only type to like it.

[Myst]

No. He is SLI. Also my SLE son likes math.. I think LII is not the only type that likes math... Also science, LII would not the only type to like it.

Oh, he just seemed very strongly preferring Ti, the way you talked about his orientation.

[Eliza Thomason]

Oh, he just seemed very strongly preferring Ti, the way you talked about his orientation.

No, he does not have a very strong Ti preference; not sure how you are seeing that. We both like to design but we take a different approach - and it only makes sense that an NF would have a very different approach to design than an ST.

He likes to craft things, and reconfigure living space - very particularly his OWN HOME space - whereas I enjoy also helping anyone who wants my help with furniture or picture placement, design or color ideas. He will willingly offer people input if they want it, but he likes thinking through a project, making decisions from start to finish. His design focus is emphasized on the most efficient and the most useful use of the space. And he basically appreciates the input of my rule that it has to be efficient AND beautiful. Also, I have a different approach to balance of design that seems foreign to his approach - causing me to often ask him to redo his design ideas taking my proportion/balance ideas into consideration.

An example of his excellent efficiency is, before I was here, he opened up access to the entire attic - a small attic, but now the basically useless space is very useful. As he says: it expands the useful space of the house without "changing the footprint" of the house, thereby, no higher taxes. It used to have access only by a trap door over the shower. He created a nice simple staircase next to that 2nd floor bathroom, with perfect use of the space - not a lot of it, as the proportions of this house are not spacious. This house was designed 100 years ago with real Yankee thrift. Its impressive, I told him - a staircase is not easy - and he said, "I did the maths." He also explained the stairs now wind in the same continuous one-direction spiral from the the cellar to rooftop - that fourth "staircase" being the safe sturdy railed "steps" on the roof, that are the same pitch of the other staircases. See how clever he is? He said the dormers were harder; he spent a long time looking at many, many other houses' dormers and thinking that one through before he built them (and he will say of these dormers that he has never before or since seen anything like these he designed for the space. The are not amazingly cute or anything, like I would have been going for, but efficient), and he also bumped out the roof for a bathroom w/shower - also a major project, and that bathroom's roof is a deck. It really was quite a problem to plan and design, the kind of problem I would have a hard time figuring out. I woudl never have been able to imagine how to open the attic up. And now its really nice guest quarters, because the guest can have their "own floor", with the little bedroom in the back, and the little center hallway with storage drawers along the slanted wall, and their "own bathroom", plus the unique observation deck on the roof.

So, back just after we decided this was love and that we wanted to tie the knot - a time just prior to which he was in a rather directionless, unhappy state - I asked him: "What would you most want to do with your time, if you could choose?" And his first thing was, "work more on this house" and the 2nd - to teach Latin someday. So now we have this one room we are making from the old ugly three-season porch, the once-ugliest part of the house. Its the last big change on the house, and so, the last chance to design, and we have lots of things we are trying to do in that simple smallish space. And this new joint-approach to design is making him ask: "How did I ever manage that attic project without you?" Ah, yes, collaborating is more challenging!

And as to Latin, we need this room for him to teach from the house. I can be with my Mom in the main part of the downstairs, and he can hole off in the side room with his students, which will be fairly sound-proof with the door shut. So, we hope to have it finished-off inside by fall...And meanwhile, he has been teaching Latin to his college-age son, and now his daughter's daughter wants to learn, and will start soon.

As to creating, I can easily whip up a good sketch of my idea, but he uses an (old) computer program to put my sketched idea into a scaled plan. This week when I asked he made me a scaled floor plan so that I can copy it on graph paper, as I prefer pencil and paper, so I can work on my furniture floor plan (using graph paper furniture and tape wads to move things around and find the best plan) so I can decide if the cute affordable little old rocker that would be easy to reupholster, that I saw at a consignment shop, will fit in our new room, or if that will be one piece of furniture too many... And he takes real interest in my figuring out problems like this, in my way, that that's a treasure to me, a real bonus of life with my dear SLI husband.

[ghost of forum past]

Lol mathematical compositions, is he LII?

I feel objectified.

[Aylen]

I feel objectified.

Little known fact, LII brain is sold on the black market. It is right up there with bear testicles and tiger paws in popularity. Just not as well known. Please watch out for yourself.

[ghost of forum past]

Little known fact, LII brain is sold on the black market. It is right up there with bear testicles and tiger paws in popularity. Just not as well known. Please watch out for yourself.

They can't get past my tin foil hat!

[Jeremy8419]

So...how is this supposed to work?...In real life?

Take for example the Erotic Styles. In normal, healthy romantic relationships, partners do all four of them each, because life changes and the world moves on, and it requires each person to do these various things day in and day out.

The "dual relationships" don't "work," because normal, healthy people alternate and go through all the elements equally to maintain a balanced lifestyle capable of sustaining the self first and foremost prior to joining with another similar person.

[Moonbeaux Rainfox]

Excerpt from here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/392-Video-lectures-by-Victor-Gulenko-School-of-Humanitarian-Socionics

SHS - Relations Between Duals are Dialectic

V.G. If duals have united into one pair, tell us, is this a consonant or a dissonant union?
Audience: Dissonant from which point of view?
V.G. From point of view of relations between them. Is it easy for them to merge into one? Is such synthesis easy?
Audience: It's not easy for them to come together, but after it's difficult to separate them ... [inaudible conversation].
V.G. This is right. This means that the nature of dual relations is an antithetic synthesis i.e. synthesis of the opposites that struggle with one another but then unite: this is called unity and conflict of the opposites. This is the formula of what kind of thinking?
Audience: Dialectic thinking.
V.G. This is it, relations between duals are dialectic, they both love and hate each other. This is unavoidable. Dual relations are synthesis of the opposites. This struggle is unavoidable.
Is there any way to get rid of these painful contradictions between duals, in principle?
Audience: Um, may be, perhaps, likely not ...
V.G. In principle it's impossible. It's possible to smooth them out, by correct distribution of roles in dual pair for example, but it's impossible to remove them. This, precisely, is life; these contradictions give dual relations a special tint, without it they would have been boring. Periodically contradictions arise, they get resolved, come up, get resolved, come up, get resolved again - this is dialectical contradictory synthesis. Considering that this is the union and the struggle of the opposites, duals often come together over conflict. At first, they fight one another, raise scandals, sort out relations, then suddenly they feel a pull towards each other. This is how it happens, such is nature.

Thus, it is not possible to use formal logic to understand dual relations. They can only be understood through dialectic logic that understands that even if they are fighting they are still one whole. Only this kind of logic is able to explain these relations. Someone might say: "We have total harmony. We don't have any disagreements. There is nothing to smooth out." I don't believe it, because I know that dual relations have to go through these intensifications. Without them, you will get bored by one another. Without this there is no raisin, no spice, it would be uninteresting. This would have been static relations, while dual relations are introverted, that is closed-off autonomous relations, but also dynamic relations that are always changing.

So...how is this suppoused to work?...In real life?

Dunno, no clue. For me it will always read like a ‚fantasy‘. I don’t know, if there is not too much ‚idealization‘ going on. It’s like when you really get to the core of a lot of peoples lives (what’s really going on behind the scenes) and know that life can be this huge meat grinder, that a lot of things can happen, then it‘s for me this deep understanding, that sometimes it just boils down to whatever works... sometimes there is no place for ideals. But then again for the ‚romantics‘ at heart, who are ‚open‘ and ‚believe‘ in the ideal, their hearts get moving and idk... because they believe, they will keep on moving and may end up where the cynics never thought they would and maybe it’s about striking a balance between the two.

[SongOfSapphire]

Excerpt from here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/392-Video-lectures-by-Victor-Gulenko-School-of-Humanitarian-Socionics

SHS - Relations Between Duals are Dialectic

V.G. If duals have united into one pair, tell us, is this a consonant or a dissonant union?
Audience: Dissonant from which point of view?
V.G. From point of view of relations between them. Is it easy for them to merge into one? Is such synthesis easy?
Audience: It's not easy for them to come together, but after it's difficult to separate them ... [inaudible conversation].
V.G. This is right. This means that the nature of dual relations is an antithetic synthesis i.e. synthesis of the opposites that struggle with one another but then unite: this is called unity and conflict of the opposites. This is the formula of what kind of thinking?
Audience: Dialectic thinking.
V.G. This is it, relations between duals are dialectic, they both love and hate each other. This is unavoidable. Dual relations are synthesis of the opposites. This struggle is unavoidable.
Is there any way to get rid of these painful contradictions between duals, in principle?
Audience: Um, may be, perhaps, likely not ...
V.G. In principle it's impossible. It's possible to smooth them out, by correct distribution of roles in dual pair for example, but it's impossible to remove them. This, precisely, is life; these contradictions give dual relations a special tint, without it they would have been boring. Periodically contradictions arise, they get resolved, come up, get resolved, come up, get resolved again - this is dialectical contradictory synthesis. Considering that this is the union and the struggle of the opposites, duals often come together over conflict. At first, they fight one another, raise scandals, sort out relations, then suddenly they feel a pull towards each other. This is how it happens, such is nature.

This is excellent. Very accurate, imo. You can love adore and respect each other, but I don't think either dual really understands the other deep, deep down...and that helps keep it interesting.

I think dual relationships, if both people are healthy and invested in having a successful relationship, are great not only for enjoyment, but for honing communication skills, effective argument skills (note: I mean fair arguing to seek out truth, not fighting), and respect for oneself as well as the other person.

The differences bt the two contribute a lot to the respect factor: your dual can effortlessly do things and think in ways you struggle with or miss entirely, and in the course of interacting and especially when arguing w them, you realize this even more, but you also realize that the same is true from their perspective -- there is a lot of mutual respect (admiration, even), and that is a big factor in dual relations that I don't recall reading or hearing much about.

[HotSauce]

Oh yeah - we don't fight. Ever. At least not real fights. Play fights are normal. He pretty much worships the ground I walk on (I also say this in the most respectful way possible, as he is very strong mentally and stoic and I totally respect his manhood and all that but he tends to worship me, at the end of the day) and I am perfectly OK with this arrangement

[mu4]

Excerpt from here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/392-Video-lectures-by-Victor-Gulenko-School-of-Humanitarian-Socionics

SHS - Relations Between Duals are Dialectic

V.G. If duals have united into one pair, tell us, is this a consonant or a dissonant union?
Audience: Dissonant from which point of view?
V.G. From point of view of relations between them. Is it easy for them to merge into one? Is such synthesis easy?
Audience: It's not easy for them to come together, but after it's difficult to separate them ... [inaudible conversation].
V.G. This is right. This means that the nature of dual relations is an antithetic synthesis i.e. synthesis of the opposites that struggle with one another but then unite: this is called unity and conflict of the opposites. This is the formula of what kind of thinking?
Audience: Dialectic thinking.
V.G. This is it, relations between duals are dialectic, they both love and hate each other. This is unavoidable. Dual relations are synthesis of the opposites. This struggle is unavoidable.
Is there any way to get rid of these painful contradictions between duals, in principle?
Audience: Um, may be, perhaps, likely not ...
V.G. In principle it's impossible. It's possible to smooth them out, by correct distribution of roles in dual pair for example, but it's impossible to remove them. This, precisely, is life; these contradictions give dual relations a special tint, without it they would have been boring. Periodically contradictions arise, they get resolved, come up, get resolved, come up, get resolved again - this is dialectical contradictory synthesis. Considering that this is the union and the struggle of the opposites, duals often come together over conflict. At first, they fight one another, raise scandals, sort out relations, then suddenly they feel a pull towards each other. This is how it happens, such is nature.

Thus, it is not possible to use formal logic to understand dual relations. They can only be understood through dialectic logic that understands that even if they are fighting they are still one whole. Only this kind of logic is able to explain these relations. Someone might say: "We have total harmony. We don't have any disagreements. There is nothing to smooth out." I don't believe it, because I know that dual relations have to go through these intensifications. Without them, you will get bored by one another. Without this there is no raisin, no spice, it would be uninteresting. This would have been static relations, while dual relations are introverted, that is closed-off autonomous relations, but also dynamic relations that are always changing.

So...how is this suppoused to work?...In real life?

Dunno, no clue. For me it will always read like a ‚fantasy‘. I don’t know, if there is not too much ‚idealization‘ going on. It’s like when you really get to the core of a lot of peoples lives (what’s really going on behind the scenes) and know that life can be this huge meat grinder, that a lot of things can happen, then it‘s for me this deep understanding, that sometimes it just boils down to whatever works... sometimes there is no place for ideals. But then again for the ‚romantics‘ at heart, who are ‚open‘ and ‚believe‘ in the ideal, their hearts get moving and idk... because they believe, they will keep on moving and may end up where the cynics never thought they would and maybe it’s about striking a balance between the two.

Want to know what else is dialectical? Narcissist-Borderline, Emotional Manipulation-Codependent, there are other pairings that are attractive based on disorder.

Furthermore, often these relations are socionics driven as well, such as super-ego, benefit, supervision. Many different relations can maintain a stable whole for a short to very long period of time, however duality is a stable relation that should reduce in anxiety and conflict over time.

However this only works with mutual respect, and this respect between individuals must go beyond idealization and fantasy.

Duality is not only defined by this dialectical bond, but also the strength and durability of the bond and growing respect.