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Thread: I don't get dual relationships (duality)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    My point was it will only be conscious if you pay attention to self-growth and the like. And without paying attention it's not going to be enough

    Anyway I never saw anyone whose advice would just slide into my mind heh (good thing), and my openness to stuff would depend on more factors anyway.... I agree family is a factor too, for example

    Instead of just a dual, just be enough of a part of society and be in contact with enough people.

    Not commenting on the rest, too much socionics-speak for me, sorry
    I never mentioned it would be conscious though. And I def don't think it's gonna be enough for you to be truly competent, but much better at it than you were previous to exposure.

    As far as advice, I'm always on the internet seeking advice and most of the times it never clicks, I always feel some rationalization against it that naturally forms in my mind, but LSE advice or even SLI advice I always get the sensation "ahhh, I knew that but it's good to hear someone actually say it."

    And the bold part is a good point I think the more exposure you get to people the more well rounded you become, I just think it's less friction in development with a dual since you are already being suggested to develop in that direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I never mentioned it would be conscious though.
    And I was aware you didn't, my exact point is that it should be more conscious development than what Socionics talks about.


    And I def don't think it's gonna be enough for you to be truly competent, but much better at it than you were previous to exposure.
    Disagreed on "much better", without the conscious development this isn't all that true in my experience - also I'm not really talking about competency in the skills directly where your brain has weaknesses, but more like, becoming aware and then finding ways to make up for the issues.


    As far as advice, I'm always on the internet seeking advice and most of the times it never clicks, I always feel some rationalization against it that naturally forms in my mind, but LSE advice or even SLI advice I always get the sensation "ahhh, I knew that but it's good to hear someone actually say it."
    Hm yeah ok we have very diffreent experiences and ideas on all this


    And the bold part is a good point I think the more exposure you get to people the more well rounded you become, I just think it's less friction in development with a dual since you are already being suggested to develop in that direction.
    And I think it doesn't just magically work is my point

    But glad we agree on one thing at least lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    And I was aware you didn't, my exact point is that it should be more conscious development than what Socionics talks about.


    Disagreed on "much better", without the conscious development this isn't all that true in my experience - also I'm not really talking about competency in the skills directly where your brain has weaknesses, but more like, becoming aware and then finding ways to make up for the issues.
    If you don't speak spanish, but you live in a house for 1 year with someone who speaks spanish, you will pick up on words, consciously and unconsciously, just by living with them. You will be much better with spanish then you ever were before you lived with the person, consciously and unconsciously.

    I see the same with our areas of weakness and exposure to people who are good in those areas. I don't think it's magic, but just picking up behaviors or habits of others that serve to help your issues. Subconsciously collecting tools for your tools box to deal with situations that require them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    If you don't speak spanish, but you live in a house for 1 year with someone who speaks spanish, you will pick up on words, consciously and unconsciously, just by living with them. You will be much better with spanish then you ever were before you lived with the person, consciously and unconsciously.

    I see the same with our areas of weakness and exposure to people who are good in those areas. I don't think it's magic, but just picking up behaviors or habits of others that serve to help your issues. Subconsciously collecting tools for your tools box to deal with situations that require them.
    That Spanish knowledge if you do not try to consciously work on it at the same time isn't gonna do much beyond basics, which I did say before that some basics can be picked up this way

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    That Spanish knowledge if you do not try to consciously work on it at the same time isn't gonna do much beyond basics, which I did say before that some basics can be picked up this way
    Well yea I'm just talking basics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Nah, I think dual or anybody with strengths in your weaknesses give you examples on how to be better at those weak areas. I think a dual does it more in a way that you can actually understand and consciously practice, not to the same degree of course. And they operate in your suggestive areas after all.

    To use the dimensions as an example, with PoLRs and suggestive you have a one dimensional view of it but other types help you get a more multi-dimensional view of those areas. But coming from other types it's harder to understand while from dual or activity it's easier to practice.

    I'm only aware of the subconscious affect other types have had on me because I know typology, but even other types have subconsciously affected my use in the PoLR, suggestive and mobilizing, dual or not, but dual advice actually slides into my mind (and affirms subconscious thoughts) while other's advice have to get past more psychological obstacles. Most of the time when I use my weaker functions I'm copying some subconscious example when doing so even if it's not a real person and just a youtube video or TV. It's like my subconscious is scraping for any data I have that will benefit my situation without discrimination if it's real or fictional. And sometimes these emulations are so subconscious I don't know where they came from until I think about it.

    I also notice that I copy habits of my SLI dad when dealing with similar situations, that could just be family or it could be IE influence that family just bought me tons of exposure to. In certain situations I've even emulated my SLE relative's behaviors, way before I knew socionics, because I was placed in a similar situation. And none of this was conscious. I could only notice looking back and feeling weird about it.
    You can't copy a dual beyond basics, because they're an inverted version of you. It's like asking an inverted triangle to flip back rightside up, and pretend to be a normal triangle, but in human form. Just imagine asking Singu to copy me, for instance. Or Aylen, or anyone else who you type IEI. Do you see that happening? Lol

    It's going to be way easier to copy relations like activity because they match your strengths and image more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    You can't copy a dual beyond basics, because they're an inverted version of you. It's like asking an inverted triangle to flip back rightside up, and pretend to be a normal triangle, but in human form. Just imagine asking Singu to copy me, for instance. Or Aylen, or anyone else who you type IEI. Do you see that happening? Lol

    It's going to be way easier to copy relations like activity because they match your strengths and image more.
    I agree beyond basics it'll probably put way too much stress on your psyche, but yea your subconscious will pick up basics. And yea I agree it's easier to emulate activity because the gap between mobilizing and suggestive is more in reach.

    And I can see it happening, probably a very immature and very shallow imitation of you though. But I still think we emulate duals or activity subconsciously, and don't even realize it until we look back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    I agree beyond basics it'll probably put way too much stress on your psyche, but yea your subconscious will pick up basics. And yea I agree it's easier to emulate activity because the gap between mobilizing and suggestive is more in reach.

    And I can see it happening, probably a very immature and very shallow imitation of you though. But I still think we emulate duals or activity subconsciously, and don't even realize it until we look back.
    Sure. I was thinking about some of the other posts in here, and I was also thinking that it's also more likely in passive brief interactions with duals that more than giving you basics to emulate, you just benefit from little bits of their energy (needed weak IE info) being in your environment and supplied to you. Same with interactions with other non-duals, in small amounts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    Sure. I was thinking about some of the other posts in here, and I was also thinking that it's also more likely in passive brief interactions with duals that more than giving you basics to emulate, you just benefit from little bits of their energy (needed weak IE info) being in your environment and supplied to you.
    duals are people with some functions stronger than at you . you have the same functions but lesser consciouse
    when you interact with duals - you pay more attention to your weak functions and this makes them as more consciouse and more active. this makes you wiser in those regions and may add to energy feeling. it's when those weak functions are valued for you. when those are superego - you become wiser there, but also may get depressive, anxiety and exhaustion symptoms. mb as you need additionally to switch to different mode to process nonvalued functions and it's hard for psyche. my experience with conflictors - I feel tired after them in RL and may feel higher doubts without good reasons
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    @Sol Hm as far as I managed to decode the writing : p it was interesting. I'm not familiar with Mahometanism but I would have skepticism for sure about asking for concrete things lol.

    I think I'm not able to be influenced emotionally by praying or by rituals or anything like that. Somehow I'm too sober/level-headed for this. I have had trance states spontaneously but definitely no complex wordings or predictions or anything like that

    I had other mystical-ish states but those I see as just my mind's more mysterious parts esp. with regard to emotional stuff. It was half spontaneous and I kind of also self-suggested myself into these states, and I personally just see it as me figuring out emotional and mental stuff for myself. I'm not a total atheist though, I'm not trying to explain it in an absolute way by declaring that it's just my mind. It probably is, but it could be actually "more" than just my mind (something transcendent outside me lol), I'm not totally excluding that bc we don't even know what this world really is.

    I did not understand the last 3 sentences about atheism/saints/elfs for kids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    I would have skepticism for sure about asking for concrete things
    It works 2-4 hours of concentrated prey to God image with its traits as said above and mb you'll get it. The head may feel some pain. Also helps to ask about the same everyday for about a month or longer. Step by step you'll get something interesting, I'm sure. A low possible positive events which relate to what you are asking for. I remember 3 cases, at least. I asked and got on the next day. 2 times it was to meet a human I wanted to see. Mb it activated unconsciouse telepathic abbilities to influence and interact with people, mb more. The trances which you get during preys study you to use the imagination as a way to get something. Probably anything what you may imagine may become with more chance after that practices. Religions is one of approaches to that.
    It may work with humans and their behavior definetely. If you'll ask alike "Make this 1 kg stone as 1 kg of gold" - I rather doubt you'll get it. But a chance you'll accidentally will get a serious income, as you wanted alike.

    > I think I'm not able to be influenced emotionally by praying or by rituals or anything like that.

    You may try to influence on people, - to inspire some emotional states in them. After some time mb it will work. I suppose all people can this, - to use telepathic abbility consciously.
    I have a familiar woman. She had kind of depression or asthenia. I tried to fix that. Did several askings for her to feel better. She knew nothing what I do. After some time I've asked her. She said about emotional improvements in recent time. The effect lasted not for long.

    > Somehow I'm too sober/level-headed for this. I have had trance states spontaneously but definitely no complex wordings or predictions or anything like that

    Predictions as visions should be easier for N types, base Ni especially. They dream all day long, anyway. Some usefulness could to be, at least. About a weather tomorrow. There are schools about prediction technics. Some of them may use deeper trances with religious preying, alike exist in Judaism.

    > I'm not a total atheist though, I'm not trying to explain it in an absolute way by declaring that it's just my mind.

    mind operates by own models. in this sense - it's never the reality as it is. if it's useful - we may trust to it. is it real? no one knows what is real. the science have troubles to describe some things they notice - they do not fit to previous models, so they develop and check new models regularly. the same is with anything in our mind

    it's never "just your mind" - as it exists in objective reality which influences on it. but it's never the true reality what we see and think. the reality is always unpredictable to some degree

    > I did not understand the last 3 sentences about atheism/saints/elfs for kids.

    The general sense is that religions and other esoteric explanations are only models. They may contain not obligate parts to do something. Also some models are simpler, but may be enough to be useful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    It works 2-4 hours of concentrated prey to God image with its traits as said above and mb you'll get it. The head may feel some pain. Also helps to ask about the same everyday for about a month or longer. Step by step you'll get something interesting, I'm sure. A low possible positive events which relate to what you are asking for. I remember 3 cases, at least. I asked and got on the next day. 2 times it was to meet a human I wanted to see. Mb it activated unconsciouse telepathic abbilities to influence and interact with people, mb more. The trances which you get during preys study you to use the imagination as a way to get something. Probably anything what you may imagine may become with more chance after that practices. Religions is one of approaches to that.
    It may work with humans and their behavior definetely. If you'll ask alike "Make this 1 kg stone as 1 kg of gold" - I rather doubt you'll get it. But a chance you'll accidentally will get a serious income, as you wanted alike.
    Like I said I'm too sober for this to work for me

    I suspect these practices have to elicit some mind state and emotional state changes for them to work. That's why I'm saying I'm too sober for it


    You may try to influence on people, - to inspire some emotional states in them. After some time mb it will work. I suppose all people can this, - to use telepathic abbility consciously.
    I have a familiar woman. She had kind of depression or asthenia. I tried to fix that. Did several askings for her to feel better. She knew nothing what I do. After some time I've asked her. She said about emotional improvements in recent time. The effect lasted not for long.
    Nice but again I'm too level-headed to inspire emotional states deliberately in others


    it's never "just your mind" - as it exists in objective reality which influences on it. but it's never the true reality what we see and think. the reality is always unpredictable to some degree
    That's fine as long as our perception does usually align enough with objective reality


    The general sense is that religions and other esoteric explanations are only models. They may contain not obligate parts to do something. Also some models are simpler, but may be enough to be useful.
    Right that makes sense. I sometimes do try to translate some ideas to my own more technical approaches. It's fun translating. (Not to do the practices, just simply to interpret the models.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    I'm too sober for this to work for me
    With more practice and efforts you and mb any human should be able to use your unconsciouse abbilities by the decribed imagination approach too. For someones this may be easier, especially for having N types. On my experience the approach may to work at least for what mb related to the telepathy. What I saw is hard to relate to accidental.
    This technique is rather ancient and popular. What is seen at how spreaded are monotheistic religions and their history. Mb religions in general as they have a common principle to work with the imagination. And other mystic practices.
    Also you may stay sober, there was nothing to suppose to be drunk is obligate. I recommend to not be under substances.

    > Nice but again I'm too level-headed to inspire emotional states deliberately in others

    Emotions of T types are worse seen by their consciousness. In a prey your consciousness gets more control over unconsciousness contents, you become more emotional and get some better control what you do with emotions. With everyday practice of a prey or other emotional concentration on some wish - after a time you'll notice accidental events with low chances which are linked to what you wish, mb ways to get the wished or the wished will come. That worked with my wish to meet a human for _several_ times, for example. I used a prey in which I asked that. When you wish - you set the aim and your mind starts to work for it, including your unconsciose abbilities. The borders are not known.
    Last edited by Sol; 09-15-2019 at 05:13 PM.
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    Duality sounds like it would be most appealing to Gamma NT:
    Maximum benefit, minimum long term risk...
    It doesn't/ wouldn't surprise me that the idea of duality becomes less appealing, as you move away from these functions..

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    Quote Originally Posted by DELL View Post
    Duality sounds like it would be most appealing to Gamma NT:
    Maximum benefit, minimum long term risk...
    It doesn't/ wouldn't surprise me that the idea of duality becomes less appealing, as you move away from these functions..
    As a Gamma NT, duality does appeal to me, and relationships generally become more and more difficult with people who share fewer and fewer of my valued functions. However, this isn't just property of Gamma NT's; it happens to everyone.

    For example, my father, ex-wife, and son are all Delta SLI's, so I've been observing SLI's closely for my entire life, and one thing I've noticed is that, for all their "coolness under fire" and their generally excellent taste in clothes and in arranging a comfortable life for themselves, they live in abject fear. Fear that their incredibly planned out lives, which they so carefully guard and nurture, will eventually bore them to death. Enter the absolutely crazed, random IEE who suggests going out for ice cream or an Alaskan cruise or dressing the cat up in formal clothes. SLI's need IEE's Ne, and IEE's need someone to prevent them from spending the rent money on squirrel food "Because the poor little dears look so cold out there."

    As for the ESI-LIE duality being "ideal", please read the article here: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ng-an-ISFj-ESI
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 09-17-2019 at 02:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DELL View Post
    Duality sounds like it would be most appealing to Gamma NT:
    Maximum benefit, minimum long term risk...
    It doesn't/ wouldn't surprise me that the idea of duality becomes less appealing, as you move away from these functions..
    I guess it would depend if [gamma NT] considers [couple] as a benefit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phi View Post
    I guess it would depend if [gamma NT] considers [couple] as a benefit.
    Since I value peace, harmony, mutual support and interesting days, I generally do consider duality to be beneficial. Today I was working with a male ESI in another company and we get along great, better than I could hope for, in fact, since we have a common goal and complementary skills.

    However, not all duals are great for you. I know a female ESI who works in a University and is incredibly hard to get along with. Even her duals don't like her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Since I value peace, harmony, mutual support and interesting days, I generally do consider duality to be beneficial. Today I was working with a male ESI in another company and we get along great, better than I could hope for, in fact, since we have a common goal and complementary skills.

    However, not all duals are great for you. I know a female ESI who works in a University and is incredibly hard to get along with. Even her duals don't like her.
    Most peeps value those, at least in words.
    Enjoy the duals you've got around I guess...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    As a Gamma NT, duality does appeal to me, and relationships generally become more and more difficult with people who share fewer and fewer of my valued functions. However, this isn't just property of Gamma NT's; it happens to everyone.

    For example, my father, ex-wife, and son are all Delta SLI's, so I've been observing SLI's closely for my entire life, and one thing I've noticed is that, for all their "coolness under fire" and their generally excellent taste in clothes and in arranging a comfortable life for themselves, they live in abject fear. Fear that their incredibly planned out lives, which they so carefully guard and nurture, will eventually bore them to death. Enter the absolutely crazed, random IEE who suggests going out for ice cream or an Alaskan cruise or dressing the cat up in formal clothes. SLI's need IEE's Ne, and IEE's need someone to prevent them from spending the rent money on squirrel food "Because the poor little dears look so cold out there."

    As for the ESI-LIE duality being "ideal", please read the article here: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ng-an-ISFj-ESI
    I'm in no way disputing the *benefits/ease* of duality, strictly the *appeal* and as you know, types have different criteria when making decisions, hence It doesnt surprise me that duality wont appeal to those that are not thinking in terms of how they can most give/receive beneifit (broad sense).
    You have to know that not everyone is making decisions as rationally as you are...

    Also the money thing sounds more TE polr than TI, No?

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    Quote Originally Posted by phi View Post
    I guess it would depend if [gamma NT] considers [couple] as a benefit.
    Theoritically they should *generally* base any decision more using their prefered *rational* criteria than other types, but nothing says that individuals can't learn and grow, and develop their other preferences...

    I'm strictly speaking in general terms, and comparing to other types, that have a different decision making process

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    Just to add to my reply to Adam... When persuing my ex girlfriend, I was in no way whatsoever considering what I can do for her, or what she can do for me...
    Aside from physical attraction, my criteria was strictly about how our personalities and values meshed, and how much we enjoyed each others company...

    Socionics is now very usefully for me to make some more estimations in the relationship area,than I could before, but I'm not going to change my decision making process when persuing /entering relations

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Since I value peace, harmony, mutual support and interesting days, I generally do consider duality to be beneficial. Today I was working with a male ESI in another company and we get along great, better than I could hope for, in fact, since we have a common goal and complementary skills.

    However, not all duals are great for you. I know a female ESI who works in a University and is incredibly hard to get along with. Even her duals don't like her.
    That fact is why I maintain that a given type has to not be traumatized in some significant way in order for these theories to work out like they're supposed to. Her duals don't like her because, ESI she may be, she's broken to a point they honestly don't think they can fix without risking something they'd rather not (e.g. their very lives perhaps). Her full story is likely tragic and one could probably understand how she became the way she is now if they somehow knew it, but pity is a poor foundation for a relationship (especially a romantic one) and if the girl is setting off the self-preservation alarms than yeah, might be drawn to it, but gonna have to pass on that one. Better to live to love another day, than to love today and be dead tomorrow...

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    Yea I don't think duals will automatically hook up just because they are duals. Like other sources say, socio economic background , culture, worldviews, all that good stuff, I think if those are in place than duality will most likely lead to a permanent relationship, but like if a man from Nigeria meets a woman from Pakistan and they are duals, their worlds are just too different to get over the hump and into a dual relationship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Space View Post
    SEEs are stereotypically the adventurous, party loving extroverts.
    Pretty sure that's ESEs but ok.

    You rely too much on stereotypes. You're also unrealistic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by queentiger View Post
    Pretty sure that's ESEs but ok.

    You rely too much on stereotypes. You're also unrealistic.
    I think extraversion in general kinda leads to adventurousness and enjoying social things lol so many extro types can be that not just SEE or ESE

    but ESFx probably fits the stereotype the most just cuz of all the Se and Fe

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    Quote Originally Posted by fresh meat View Post
    I think extraversion in general kinda leads to adventurousness and enjoying social things lol so many extro types can be that not just SEE or ESE

    but ESFx probably fits the stereotype the most just cuz of all the Se and Fe

    “i wanna DO things and i want to make an emotional impact/get attention”
    Yeah makes sense, was just thinking along the lines of quadras and it would make more sense that a pure party animal just in it for the lolz would make more sense for an Alpha (merry) over Gamma (serious). Just curious in regards to you, do you get bored easily? Cause I do, and when I get bored I like to stir the pot, cause drama/trouble etc. You relate to that?
    "You're king and you're queen
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    You're bound but so free
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    Quote Originally Posted by queentiger View Post
    Yeah makes sense, was just thinking along the lines of quadras and it would make more sense that a pure party animal just in it for the lolz would make more sense for an Alpha (merry) over Gamma (serious). Just curious in regards to you, do you get bored easily? Cause I do, and when I get bored I like to stir the pot, cause drama/trouble etc. You relate to that?
    Girl, that is me 24/7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall
    Everyone, pls give Bled some likes. He craves the likes much like Suedehead craves the cock.
    7w6 2w3 8w9 - The Free Spirit

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    Quote Originally Posted by fresh meat View Post
    Girl, that is me 24/7
    Yeah that would be fitting of SEEs. The key difference between SEEs and say, ESEs is that one has Fe+ and one has Fe-. Fe+ (ESE) would be more focused on everyone getting along and a positive atmosphere whereas Fe- (SEE in this case) is more focused on drama.
    "You're king and you're queen
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    Quote Originally Posted by queentiger View Post
    Yeah that would be fitting of SEEs. The key difference between SEEs and say, ESEs is that one has Fe+ and one has Fe-. Fe+ (ESE) would be more focused on everyone getting along and a positive atmosphere whereas Fe- (SEE in this case) is more focused on drama.
    Mhm, and my home life especially is super dramatic and I cause all the drama lol

    im also just really dramatic when I feel like I’m being controlled too
    And I'm what you desire, like a siren in the night



    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall
    Everyone, pls give Bled some likes. He craves the likes much like Suedehead craves the cock.
    7w6 2w3 8w9 - The Free Spirit

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    actually now that I’ve run away from home and am living with friends there’s not really any of that drama but I’m actually currently planning some drama with two of those friends because they did something shitty to me
    And I'm what you desire, like a siren in the night



    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall
    Everyone, pls give Bled some likes. He craves the likes much like Suedehead craves the cock.
    7w6 2w3 8w9 - The Free Spirit

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    Quote Originally Posted by fresh meat View Post
    actually now that I’ve run away from home and am living with friends there’s not really any of that drama but I’m actually currently planning some drama with two of those friends because they did something shitty to me
    Iconic, we're probs the same type so SEE makes sense lol.
    "You're king and you're queen
    You're strong and you're weak
    You're bound but so free
    So come and join me
    And call me Harley
    And we'll make a scene"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    With more practice and efforts you and mb any human should be able to use your unconsciouse abbilities by the decribed imagination approach too. For someones this may be easier, especially for having N types. On my experience the approach may to work at least for what mb related to the telepathy. What I saw is hard to relate to accidental.
    This technique is rather ancient and popular. What is seen at how spreaded are monotheistic religions and their history. Mb religions in general as they have a common principle to work with the imagination. And other mystic practices.
    Also you may stay sober, there was nothing to suppose to be drunk is obligate. I recommend to not be under substances.

    > Nice but again I'm too level-headed to inspire emotional states deliberately in others

    Emotions of T types are worse seen by their consciousness. In a prey your consciousness gets more control over unconsciousness contents, you become more emotional and get some better control what you do with emotions. With everyday practice of a prey or other emotional concentration on some wish - after a time you'll notice accidental events with low chances which are linked to what you wish, mb ways to get the wished or the wished will come. That worked with my wish to meet a human for _several_ times, for example. I used a prey in which I asked that. When you wish - you set the aim and your mind starts to work for it, including your unconsciose abbilities. The borders are not known.
    The thing is I'm too level-headed for this, so I'm unable to believe in it, so if I was to recite a pray, I would not engage with it and my subconscious emotions would not come out any more.

    I do know how to do self-suggestion and I use it for understanding myself and stuff more sometimes but I don't do spiritual practices for that. Like I said I'm not able to believe in those so I remain uninspired with those.

    I can set aims to believe in without spiritual practices anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    As a Gamma NT, duality does appeal to me, and relationships generally become more and more difficult with people who share fewer and fewer of my valued functions. However, this isn't just property of Gamma NT's; it happens to everyone.

    For example, my father, ex-wife, and son are all Delta SLI's, so I've been observing SLI's closely for my entire life, and one thing I've noticed is that, for all their "coolness under fire" and their generally excellent taste in clothes and in arranging a comfortable life for themselves, they live in abject fear. Fear that their incredibly planned out lives, which they so carefully guard and nurture, will eventually bore them to death. Enter the absolutely crazed, random IEE who suggests going out for ice cream or an Alaskan cruise or dressing the cat up in formal clothes. SLI's need IEE's Ne, and IEE's need someone to prevent them from spending the rent money on squirrel food "Because the poor little dears look so cold out there."
    I don't get how SLI is supposed to follow an incredibly planned out life lol. I mean the SLI descriptions say the opposite. The thing you might be thinking of is that they supposedly like to try and create very detailed plans with useless detail. But they do not actually try to follow through those plans.

    Is this what you meant?

    Bc otherwise SLIs supposedly always try to avoid boredom anyway so it didn't make much sense for that part of your post

    But then the whole system can't cover people who fit maybe 1 pattern of SLI (or whatever other type) and then don't fit the second pattern and so on. So it's just patterns that don't fit in 16 types let alone into the model created for these types.

    So it's like, if your SLI was more comfortable with bureaucracy and paper pushing like the tax system and couldn't do mechanic things like you described your SLI ex wife before, and your LSI was instead some very independent and aloof farmer, who was fine with mechanic things, then both these go against the actual stereotypes of SLI and LSI and are like switched around. Meanwhile the SLI ex wife could totally fit the other patterns you picked up from SLI descriptions, and your farmer LSI ex gf could totally fit some LSI patterns.

    So overall it's pretty meaningless beyond a point.

    Make sense?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    As a Gamma NT, duality does appeal to me, and relationships generally become more and more difficult with people who share fewer and fewer of my valued functions. However, this isn't just property of Gamma NT's; it happens to everyone.

    For example, my father, ex-wife, and son are all Delta SLI's, so I've been observing SLI's closely for my entire life, and one thing I've noticed is that, for all their "coolness under fire" and their generally excellent taste in clothes and in arranging a comfortable life for themselves, they live in abject fear. Fear that their incredibly planned out lives, which they so carefully guard and nurture, will eventually bore them to death. Enter the absolutely crazed, random IEE who suggests going out for ice cream or an Alaskan cruise or dressing the cat up in formal clothes. SLI's need IEE's Ne, and IEE's need someone to prevent them from spending the rent money on squirrel food "Because the poor little dears look so cold out there."

    As for the ESI-LIE duality being "ideal", please read the article here: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ng-an-ISFj-ESI
    I've never had an overly planned life and its also not part of my interest/dreams/effort etc. Neither any of the SLI's I've met. Overly planned life is not very p.
    On the contrary, my LSI brother plans even his daily meals for example.

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    I think I understand what Adam said. From being friends with some SLIs, I noticed they don't take risks. They play it too safe. I think it is because they can't see what lays after and are afraid of the unknown (this unknown can bring losses) maybe to the point they miss out many things and become bored with life.

    They are too careful and calculate everything they do... It amazes me... Because I am usually spontaneous and don't think as much as they do. My head will burn if I calculate everything like that. But for them it is a natural tendency.

    An example is my friend. She knows how to live a good, peaceful life. If I compare my life and hers until now, mine had many ups and downs and I am okay with it and I gained experience from it while her life had been stable because she focuses a lot on preventing downs of life from happening but at the same time she kind of missed experiences that could have helped her become wiser.

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    Rationals

    Tend to plan ahead, make decisions early
    Are more often rigid and stubborn
    Do not like to change their decisions
    Tend to finish what they started.
    Usually have stiff movements.
    Usually more 'authoritarian' leadership style.
    Low stress tolerance.

    Irrationals

    Tend to wait and see, more spontaneous
    Are more often flexible and tolerant.
    Change their decisions frequently.
    Tend to start new things without finishing them.
    Usually have gentle movements.
    Usually more 'democratic' leadership style.
    High stress tolerance.

    Rational (Judging) Types: LII (INTj) ESE (ESFj) LSI (ISTj) EIE (ENFj) ESI (ISFj) LIE (ENTj) EII (INFj) LSE (ESTj)

    Irrational (Perceiving) Types: ILE (ENTp) SEI (ISFp) SLE (ESTp) IEI (INFp) SEE (ESFp) ILI (INTp) IEE (ENFp) SLI (ISTp)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy View Post
    I think I understand what Adam said. From being friends with some SLIs, I noticed they don't take risks. They play it too safe. I think it is because they can't see what lays after and are afraid of the unknown (this unknown can bring losses) maybe to the point they miss out many things and become bored with life.

    They are too careful and calculate everything they do... It amazes me... Because I am usually spontaneous and don't think as much as they do. My head will burn if I calculate everything like that. But for them it is a natural tendency.

    An example is my friend. She knows how to live a good, peaceful life. If I compare my life and hers until now, mine had many ups and downs and I am okay with it and I gained experience from it while her life had been stable because she focuses a lot on preventing downs of life from happening but at the same time she kind of missed experiences that could have helped her become wiser.
    YA I heard before that enfps see the istp as not all that optimistic even when istps think of themselves as optimistic ...

    But anyway not taking risks isn't the same as following carefully planned out plans

    Also there are many types of risks, so as for your friends, they may take some risks you don't, while you only notice that they didn't take the type of risks that you will take

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragdoll Cat View Post
    Rationals

    Tend to plan ahead, make decisions early
    Are more often rigid and stubborn
    Do not like to change their decisions
    Tend to finish what they started.
    Usually have stiff movements.
    Usually more 'authoritarian' leadership style.
    Low stress tolerance.

    Irrationals

    Tend to wait and see, more spontaneous
    Are more often flexible and tolerant.
    Change their decisions frequently.
    Tend to start new things without finishing them.
    Usually have gentle movements.
    Usually more 'democratic' leadership style.
    High stress tolerance.

    Rational (Judging) Types: LII (INTj) ESE (ESFj) LSI (ISTj) EIE (ENFj) ESI (ISFj) LIE (ENTj) EII (INFj) LSE (ESTj)

    Irrational (Perceiving) Types: ILE (ENTp) SEI (ISFp) SLE (ESTp) IEI (INFp) SEE (ESFp) ILI (INTp) IEE (ENFp) SLI (ISTp)
    I don't agree with this entirely.

    Rationals making faster descions I agree, Irrationals waiting and see I agree.

    But higher Ne will predict more spontaneity/flexibilty/ and starting new things without finishing.

    Higher Si will not be as spontaneous, flexible, or constantly starting new things as higher Ne.

    The stiffness no, the stiffness is more of a T thing in general, and not all T users but really extremely stiff people most likely have high T and low S, ILI for example tends to be stiff in movements, and they are irrational. LII as well, tend to have stiff movement.

    Leadership style probably has to do with F and T, Higher F more democratic higher T more authoritarian, now I don't think it's a hard fast rule but to say that ESTp leadership style is more democratic than EII leadership style is to have never seen either of them lead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    The stiffness no, the stiffness is more of a T thing in general, and not all T users but really extremely stiff people most likely have high T and low S, ILI for example tends to be stiff in movements, and they are irrational. LII as well, tend to have stiff movement.
    I'm told I'm really really stiff. I wouldn't link it to S/N dichotomies

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